How else would you get to wizard levels of power/versatility if not by having psionic abilities that are on par with spells at those levels?
If people wanted wizard levels of power and versatility, they'd play a wizard.
There's a reason the idea of specialist casters keeps getting brought up here. A specialist gives up versatility to be better than the generalist at their specific thing.
And if instead you're okay with "less-than-wizard" - okay fine, but how much less?
To answer that question, you'd first need to define what "less than a wizard" even means. There's no simple measurement of power in this game. There isn't even in much less free-form games.
Is a character who can do more single-target damage than a wizard stronger or weaker? How about one with stronger area effect damage? The answer to both of those is "it depends on what else they can do", and, even with that answer, it depends on what you value most.
Until you make the barest attempt to answer these, we're just going to keep going around in circles.
We're going to keep going around in circles because you all will never be satisfied with the answers you get.
Yes, if you construct a system that's functionally identical to spellcasting, but better, it's going to be unbalanced.
In fact, if you construct a system that's functionally identical to spellcasting, it's going to be unbalanced, because spellcasting is unbalanced. (Inasmuch and D&D has balance to begin with.)
But there's nothing inherent in the idea of "psi powers should not use the spellcasting system" that gets you there.
Bolded what seems to be blind assumptions on your part, since no proponent of such a class has gone into the level of detail needed to make such statements.
How else would you get to wizard levels of power/versatility if not by having psionic abilities that are on par with spells at those levels?
And if instead you're okay with "less-than-wizard" - okay fine, but how much less?
Until you make the barest attempt to answer these, we're just going to keep going around in circles.
Requiring a completely finished, perfectly balanced, fully written up proposal, or at least insisting that there is no point in even discussing the topic at all without all the details worked out, is disingenuous.
Going around in circles, indeed.
You are even cherry picking one spell, here, fireball and seemingly taking the position that the entire class is based around that spell.... What do YOU mean by 'less than a wizard?' Do you mean that the class should be underpowered compared to wizards?
And yes, it is easier to describe things in terms of existing spells because they already exist. Not sure there is anyone who considers the 4 element monk anything other than underpowered.... even if their fireballs do the same damage as a fireball cast by a wizard. Classes are compared in a holistic manner, complete class vs complete class, not in that cherry picked "This one ability is equal!" kind of way.
To answer that question, you'd first need to define what "less than a wizard" even means. There's no simple measurement of power in this game. There isn't even in much less free-form games.
Is a character who can do more single-target damage than a wizard stronger or weaker? How about one with stronger area effect damage? The answer to both of those is "it depends on what else they can do", and, even with that answer, it depends on what you value most. ....
We're going to keep going around in circles because you all will never be satisfied with the answers you get.
I agree it's not necessarily simple, but we're not completely bereft of guidance either. We have benchmarks for certain abilities - we know how much damage spells should do at various levels, so if a psionic blasting ability does damage, we have a starting point for calculating how much. We also know things like encounter-long Flight should probably start around character level 5, long duration mind control for humanoids should kick in around character level 7 while for non-humanoids it would be much later, long distance teleportation should kick in around level 13 and so on. Even if your preference is for psionic powers to not use the spellcasting framework specifically, that framework still lets us identify when certain capabilities should be made available to the PCs.
From there you layer on what else you want from the system. If the goal is for psionic powers to get to ignore spell components for example, or bypass defenses like magic resistance/detection/dispelling/countering, then those are advantages that need to be offset by making them weaker, more limited in use etc.
Those are the answers we're not getting, therefore there is nothing to be satisfied with.
To answer that question, you'd first need to define what "less than a wizard" even means. There's no simple measurement of power in this game. There isn't even in much less free-form games.
Is a character who can do more single-target damage than a wizard stronger or weaker? How about one with stronger area effect damage? The answer to both of those is "it depends on what else they can do", and, even with that answer, it depends on what you value most. ....
We're going to keep going around in circles because you all will never be satisfied with the answers you get.
I agree it's not necessarily simple, but we're not completely bereft of guidance either. We have benchmarks for certain abilities - we know how much damage spells should do at various levels, so if a psionic blasting ability does damage, we have a starting point for calculating how much. We also know things like encounter-long Flight should probably start around character level 5, long duration mind control for humanoids should kick in around character level 7 while for non-humanoids it would be much later, long distance teleportation should kick in around level 13 and so on. Even if your preference is for psionic powers to not use the spellcasting framework specifically, that framework still lets us identify when certain capabilities should be made available to the PCs.
From there you layer on what else you want from the system. If the goal is for psionic powers to get to ignore spell components for example, or bypass defenses like magic resistance/detection/dispelling/countering, then those are advantages that need to be offset by making them weaker, more limited in use etc.
Those are the answers we're not getting, therefore there is nothing to be satisfied with.
Yes, there will have to be trade offs for the advantages. No one has said otherwise. This does not mean those trade offs automatically equal 'power levels ground into uselessness.' "Is not magic" does not automatically equal "Is unstoppable."
"Has some level of versatility" does not equal "Has wizard levels of versatility"
You are asking finalization questions and acting like they are make and break on basic concept. And, for that matter, as if you have some sort of veto power.
Yes, there will have to be trade offs for the advantages. No one has said otherwise. This does not mean those trade offs automatically equal 'power levels ground into uselessness.' "Is not magic" does not automatically equal "Is unstoppable."
"Has some level of versatility" does not equal "Has wizard levels of versatility"
You are asking finalization questions and acting like they are make and break on basic concept. And, for that matter, as if you have some sort of veto power.
I don't pretend to have any kind of veto power. Heck, you don't even have to read any of my objections if you don't want to; the ignore button is right there on the left side of your screen.
I don't think "is not magic" = "unstoppable" either, but I haven't seen any solutions for the three main problems I raised in #889.
Yes, there will have to be trade offs for the advantages. No one has said otherwise. This does not mean those trade offs automatically equal 'power levels ground into uselessness.' "Is not magic" does not automatically equal "Is unstoppable."
"Has some level of versatility" does not equal "Has wizard levels of versatility"
You are asking finalization questions and acting like they are make and break on basic concept. And, for that matter, as if you have some sort of veto power.
I don't pretend to have any kind of veto power. Heck, you don't even have to read any of my objections if you don't want to; the ignore button is right there on the left side of your screen.
I don't think "is not magic" = "unstoppable" either, but I haven't seen any solutions for the three main problems I raised in #889.
Ok, will try this one more time, with what I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) your 'three main problems:'
I don't think you WANT it to be overpowered, no - but Ashla, Wren and I are trying to explain to you that would be the natural consequence of a power system that:
(a) can do similar (if not identical) things to what spellcasting can do at the same levels and the same frequency, (b) lacks spell components that would allow for mundane detection/countermeasures to its use, and (c) is opaque to all the other things that can interfere with spellcasting, particularly spells and monster abilities designed for that purpose.
a) Conveniently vague on your part. What, ANY things that spell casting can do? This is a different version of the "No overlap with Druid transformations" argument.
b) If this is an issue, then you presumably consider the already existing Aberrant Mind OP.
c) Please restate this, since opaque means "visible and blocking to." I don't think it means what you think it means. Even taking it as what I think you do mean, you state this as an absolute, which it would not be. Again, there are spells which would block Psi abilities. If you are insisting, though, that it should function identically to anti-magic as magic does, no. It does not have to. It can have different counters and still have equivalent (but different) limitations.
These have been addressed. You seem to feel they are not addressed to your satisfaction without full details, again, without a fully flushed out system. That is a completely unreasonable expectation, if you are still holding to that.
To answer that question, you'd first need to define what "less than a wizard" even means. There's no simple measurement of power in this game. There isn't even in much less free-form games.
Is a character who can do more single-target damage than a wizard stronger or weaker? How about one with stronger area effect damage? The answer to both of those is "it depends on what else they can do", and, even with that answer, it depends on what you value most.
I agree it's not necessarily simple, but we're not completely bereft of guidance either. We have benchmarks for certain abilities - we know how much damage spells should do at various levels, so if a psionic blasting ability does damage, we have a starting point for calculating how much. We also know things like encounter-long Flight should probably start around character level 5, long duration mind control for humanoids should kick in around character level 7 while for non-humanoids it would be much later, long distance teleportation should kick in around level 13 and so on. Even if your preference is for psionic powers to not use the spellcasting framework specifically, that framework still lets us identify when certain capabilities should be made available to the PCs.
Those are calibrations for generalists.
If a character can get flight at 3rd, but at the cost of not seeing high-damage area-effects until 11 (if at all), is that balanced? What if it's flight for you only?*
More generally, if the specialist is no better at the things they get than the generalist is, why specialize?
And the damage table is untethered from the reality of casters. Lots of extant damage spells are over, frequently way over. (And then there's Meteor Storm.) And there are weird anomalies. (Cold spells just seem to be straight worse, with no compensating advantages.) It doesn't give any guidance about delayed/continuing damage, or side effects.
* Unlimited flight for you only is potentially available at character creation
From there you layer on what else you want from the system. If the goal is for psionic powers to get to ignore spell components for example, or bypass defenses like magic resistance/detection/dispelling/countering, then those are advantages that need to be offset by making them weaker, more limited in use etc.
You seem to be arguing that balance can go only one way.
I don't think "is not magic" = "unstoppable" either, but I haven't seen any solutions for the three main problems I raised in #889.
Those "three main problems" being:
(a) can do similar (if not identical) things to what spellcasting can do at the same levels and the same frequency, (b) lacks spell components that would allow for mundane detection/countermeasures to its use, and (c) is opaque to all the other things that can interfere with spellcasting, particularly spells and monster abilities designed for that purpose.
(a) makes an unsupported assumption about how a psi class must work
(b) and (c) are just not that important
The main problems of designing a psi class are things like:
What does their resource cycle look like?
What should their power acquisition be like?
What should be base class and what should be subclass?
Are the subclasses power-based or activity-based?
"How detectable is it?" and "is it mechanically magic?" are things you can tinker with after the frameworks are developed, and they're more chrome decisions than balance ones.
Edit: Forgot a main problem, probably the main question:
a) Conveniently vague on your part. What, ANY things that spell casting can do? This is a different version of the "No overlap with Druid transformations" argument.
b) If this is an issue, then you presumably consider the already existing Aberrant Mind OP.
c) Please restate this, since opaque means "visible and blocking to." I don't think it means what you think it means. Even taking it as what I think you do mean, you state this as an absolute, which it would not be. Again, there are spells which would block Psi abilities. If you are insisting, though, that it should function identically to anti-magic as magic does, no. It does not have to. It can have different counters and still have equivalent (but different) limitations.
These have been addressed. You seem to feel they are not addressed to your satisfaction without full details, again, without a fully flushed out system. That is a completely unreasonable expectation, if you are still holding to that.
a) I wasn't part of the druid discussion and can't speak to it; debate that with whoever you were debating it with. What I'm saying is that in order to be balanced, psionic powers either need to be weaker than spells of the same character level, or they need to be fully transparent with spellcasting including the use of VSM spell components - it can't be neither.
b) I don't, because Aberrant Mind spells are (a) transparent with spellcasting (because they ARE spellcasting), and (b) they pay for getting to bypass spell components by requiring sorcery points, which functionally reduces the Aberrant Mind's output per long rest if you want to manifest everything that way. That's a viable tradeoff.
c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
c-ii) You say "there are spells which would block psi abilities" - but which ones? Counterspell can't, since they don't have components as presented. You all seem opposed to dispel magic and antimagic blocking them as well, or at least you won't commit on that point one way or the other, which leaves us nowhere to go but to highlight the worst case scenario. And even if you did invent a bunch of brand new spells that can block psi abilities, (a) monsters won't have access to these without reams of errata, and (b) PCs won't want to pick them up for such a narrow rock-paper-scissors scenario either, so they won't be worth the paper they're printed on.
(a) makes an unsupported assumption about how a psi class must work
(b) and (c) are just not that important
Regarding (a), if you're okay with the psi class being weaker then that does open up more design space for opacity with spellcasting. A Psi Warrior is certainly weaker than a wizard, and arguably may even be weaker than an Eldritch Knight, for example.
Regarding (b) and (c) - you're welcome to not see them as important, but that leaves us with nowhere to go but to agree to disagree. Our side does see them as important.
"c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
Can you please look up the meaning of those words in a dictionary? They literally are antonyms. Treating them as synonyms is a quick route to confusion.
"c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
Can you please look up the meaning of those words in a dictionary? They literally are antonyms. Treating them as synonyms is a quick route to confusion.
I.... I am treating them as antonyms 🤔 even in the very passage you just quoted.
a) Conveniently vague on your part. What, ANY things that spell casting can do? This is a different version of the "No overlap with Druid transformations" argument.
b) If this is an issue, then you presumably consider the already existing Aberrant Mind OP.
c) Please restate this, since opaque means "visible and blocking to." I don't think it means what you think it means. Even taking it as what I think you do mean, you state this as an absolute, which it would not be. Again, there are spells which would block Psi abilities. If you are insisting, though, that it should function identically to anti-magic as magic does, no. It does not have to. It can have different counters and still have equivalent (but different) limitations.
These have been addressed. You seem to feel they are not addressed to your satisfaction without full details, again, without a fully flushed out system. That is a completely unreasonable expectation, if you are still holding to that.
a) I wasn't part of the druid discussion and can't speak to it; debate that with whoever you were debating it with. What I'm saying is that in order to be balanced, psionic powers either need to be weaker than spells of the same character level, or they need to be fully transparent with spellcasting including the use of VSM spell components - it can't be neither.
b) I don't, because Aberrant Mind spells are (a) transparent with spellcasting (because they ARE spellcasting), and (b) they pay for getting to bypass spell components by requiring sorcery points, which functionally reduces the Aberrant Mind's output per long rest if you want to manifest everything that way. That's a viable tradeoff.
c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
c-ii) You say "there are spells which would block psi abilities" - but which ones? Counterspell can't, since they don't have components as presented. You all seem opposed to dispel magic and antimagic blocking them as well, or at least you won't commit on that point one way or the other, which leaves us nowhere to go but to highlight the worst case scenario. And even if you did invent a bunch of brand new spells that can block psi abilities, (a) monsters won't have access to these without reams of errata, and (b) PCs won't want to pick them up for such a narrow rock-paper-scissors scenario either, so they won't be worth the paper they're printed on.
(a) makes an unsupported assumption about how a psi class must work
(b) and (c) are just not that important
Regarding (a), if you're okay with the psi class being weaker then that does open up more design space for opacity with spellcasting. A Psi Warrior is certainly weaker than a wizard, and arguably may even be weaker than an Eldritch Knight, for example.
Regarding (b) and (c) - you're welcome to not see them as important, but that leaves us with nowhere to go but to agree to disagree. Our side does see them as important.
a) The problem is you are cherry picking each and every spell individually rather than understanding that a character is, well, a character. Any given specific part may be stronger or weaker than a similar part of another character. If they all had to be exactly the same in every way, there would be only one character class.
b) You are using "Transparent" and "Opaque" in strange ways. "Transparent" means "invisible to.. passes through... does not block." There will presumably be some mechanism limiting use of (likely most) Psion abilities. Again, this would be on an ability by ability basis and would need balancing.
c) Mind Blank, at the high end. Intellect Fortress, mid-range. There could well be a new Anti-Psi Field and could well be other counter-measure spells. Meanwhile, you seem to think that monsters are some sort of actually existent beings. They are not. They are fictional. If a DM is using this hypothetical new class, which they would have veto power over doing, they would presumably modify creatures in any way they thought fit. DM's are human beings. They are more competent than you seem to give them credit for being.
"a) The problem is you are cherry picking each and every spell individually rather than understanding that a character is, well, a character. "
That's a funny comment coming from a guy who has failed to give us a class description and, therefore, has given us no choice but to look at only bits and pieces at a time.
to answer some of the questions/complaints from the antipsion side:
My take on psionics come from some personal experiences along with some fiction (david eddings especially) as well as a bunch of reading on ESP and various mentalist "abilities" back 50 years ago or so. to me psionics was best described by Eddngs - the will and the word - you form an idea of what you want then apply your will and a word of activation and the change you want in reality occurs. so verbal and somatic components but no material components and so no need for foci either.
I run a modified FR world so to help understand what follows some modified Lore: More than 35,000 years ago as even the Sarukh were just developing some sort of civilization two groups of beings discovered ways to alter the world around them in extranormal ways. the first were folk who found they could sense and manipulate threads of man/magic in the world around them to make unusual things occur - the first sorcerers. the other group couldn't sense this magical field but found that through force of will alone they could manifest their spoke desires - the first psions. Both were rare and because they seemed to do the same things the vast majority of folk thought of them as the same. in discussions between members of each group they came to recognize that they while similar they did things in completely different ways that the other group generally couldn't fathom. Over time a third group and a fourth groups developed. the third group learned to create and record formulas of material, sounds and actions that could activate the magic fields to do specific things and so the first wizards came into existance. the fourth group came into contact with supernatural beings of great power who would grant them some modicum of their power in exchange for service or worship. these became the clerics and warlocks. /end lore dump
Ive heard repeated calls for what we want in psionics so the spoiler below is the write up I use for psi in my campaign. Its complete enough to give you a sense but there are things at the end that still need final sortings out. I'm not actively working on it as I'm currently playing not really DMing. I've put it in a spoiler as its long (7+ pages) so feel free to read or skip as you choose.
Psionics and Psions (class)
Psionics is the very rare ability to directly manipulate the universe around the character by the direct application of mental”force”. The Awakened mind has learned to manipulate its surroundings as simply and directly as it manipulates its body. This manipulation does not involve the use of Mana or a magical “Weave”. Therefore it can act even in zones of suppressed or canceled or null magic. It is however possible to establish fields that suppress the use of Psionics as well. However this is seldom done as many (perhaps most) people (even magic wielders) don’t realize that psionics is separate from magic due to its rarity. Many psionics abilities have been mimicked by magic spells and so carry similar or the same names despite their very different sources. Once the mind has been awakened to psionics it requires self discipline and training to develop and enhance a person’s abilities to their fullest. Psionic abilities fall into 5 broad groups known as disciplines based on their area or style of effect and most psionicists focus on a single discipline. This does not mean that they can’t have developed specific abilities from any of the disciplines however. These disciplines are:
1) Clairsentience – the ability to use various senses at distant and/or remote locations.
2) Psychokinesis – the ability to control objects or energies outside the body.
3) Psychometabolism – the ability to enhance or temporarily modify the body to make it heal or function effectively in different environments.
4) Telepathy – the ability to communicate directly, brain to brain, without the use of language and with essentially any creature or being.
5) Psychoportation – the ability to warp space in such a way as to jump instantly from one location to another or even (for highly skilled practioners) from one plane to another.
There is also the realm of Metapsionics which covers the ways a psionicist can adapt or modify their abilities on the fly to meet novel situations or to link abilities to create unusual or enhanced effects.
Psionicists are those individuals who, having awakened their minds, have chosen to focus on their abilities mastering the direct manipulation of their world rather than developing their abilities as a means of focusing on combat/roguery/spell casting or other areas of concentration. In some respects they resemble various types of spell casters but they normally do not need more than a quiet word and their will to create their effects. To become a Psion an individual needs an intelligence, wisdom and constitution of 13 or higher. Because of their unspecialized background before the awakening of their mind they are proficient in common, an appropriate racial language, simple weapons and any appropriate racial weapons, and with light armors. They can have any background and have a D8 for hit dice. At level 1 they get 8+ constitution bonus hit points. They get Constitution and Wisdom Save Proficiencies. They get 3 skills or tool proficiencies of their choice. Characters multi-classing into psion gain a single skill or tool proficiency instead.
Psion Progression
Level
Features
PPP
L0Ps
L1Ps
L2Ps
L3Ps
L4Ps
L5Ps
L6Ps
L7Ps
L8Ps
L9Ps
1
Psionics
Disciplines
0
4
2
2
Willspring
2+
4
3
3
MetaPsionics
3+
4
4
2
4
ASI
4+
5
4
3
5
5+
5
4
3
2
6
Discipline
6+
5
4
3
3
7
7+
5
4
3
3
1
8
ASI
8+
5
4
3
3
2
9
9+
5
4
3
3
3
1
10
MetaPsionics
10+
6
4
3
3
3
2
11
11+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
12
ASI
12+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
13
13+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
14
Discipline
14+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
15
15+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
16
ASI
16+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
17
MetaPsionics
17+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18
Discipline
18+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
19
ASI
19+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
20
Capstone
20+
6
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
Psionics – the character’s mind is awakened (how this happen should be described in the background/Personality section) and they become a psionicist and are able to use psionics.
Discipline – The Psion chooses a primary and secondary discipline to begin their training. They then get the basic abilities of the discipline which are available for use Proficiency bonus times per short rest. At each Discipline enhancement level they may either add the enhanced abilities for their disciplines or add the basic abilities of an additional discipline. These abilities are listed below:
Clairsentience: L1: you are able to extend your point of view out of your body to any point within 30’ of you that you have line of effect to (ie. You cannot see or hear through a sealed solid door but openings as small as a keyhole, cracks at the edges that light can come through etc would allow you to extend your point of sight or hearing to any point up to 30’ into the room.) You are able to grant yourself darkvision 60’ range, tremorsense 30’ range or blindsight 10’ range for one hour. L6: The range of your extended senses becomes 60’ with Darkvision extending to 90’, tremorsense to 60’ and blindsight to 20’. On a successful activation roll (8+PB+IB) you are able to jump your senses to any physical location you can specify. However there is a cumulative -1/250 miles penalty for any location you have not visited. L14: The ranges of your extended and extra senses increases again – extended senses and darkvision to 120’, Tremor sense to 90’ and Blindsight to 30’. The penalty for clairsentience changes to -1/1000 miles. L18: The time for your Darkvision/Tremorsense/Blindsight extends from 1 hour to 8 hours on each activation. In addition you can activate a dangersense that lasts for 6 hours per activation. This danger sense grants you advantage on Initiative rolls, you cannot be surprised while you are conscious, other creatures don’t gain advantage against you for being unseen by you, and you gain advantage on saves vs spells that would affect you.
Psychokinesis: L1: You are able to lift and move an unattached object of up to 10 pounds within a 30’ radius of you. This object can be used as a weapon doing 1D4 damage on a successful weapon attack roll. On a successful activation you are able to control free objects such as dice so they land as you desire. L6: the range of this effect increases to 60’, you gain fine manipulation with the ability (locks etc) and, as a bonus action you can push or pull one creature within range if they fail a strength save (DC= 8+PB+WB) up to 5’ towards or away from you. In addition the damage from this ability increases to 1D6. L14: You are able to generate a blade or ball shaped zone of energy of your choice. This energy zone does 1D6 damage of the appropriate type if it hits an individual. You can safely wrap the energy zone around a weapon you wield doing no damage to the weapon but adding the field’s damage to the weapon’s on a successful hit with the weapon. Alternatively you can use a bonus action to move the field up to 30’ within a 60’ radius of you as a bonus action. If the field hits an individual they must make a dexterity save (8+PB+WB) or take the damage of the field L18: The range of action for this field increases to 90’ radius and the damage increases to 3D6.
Psychometabolism: L1: You are able to accelerate your healing abilities healing 1D8 +WB damage to yourself Proficiency bonus times per short rest L6: Your healing ability increases to 3D8+WB or you are able to clear 1 disease or poison you suffer from with each activation. L14: Your healing factor increases to 6D8+WB or you are able to remove the blindness or deafness condition from yourself. L18: Your healing ability increases to 8D8+WB per activation. Your abilities to remove diseases, poisons, blindness and deafness extend to others of your choice as well as yourself (one individual and one condition for each activation).
Telepathy: L1: You can speak telepathically with any creature you can detect with in 60’ of yourself. The creature understands you even if it doesn’t share a language with you. The creature cannot respond telepathically. Once per long rest you can activate the Read Mind Ability – this is essentially the Detect Thoughts spell as a psionics ability L6: The range of your telepathy increases to 120’, the individual you communicate with is able to respond telepathically also. L14: the range of your telepathy increases to 1 mile and you are able to communicate with up to 5 other individuals. You gain a second Read Mind ability for each long rest L18: Your telepathic range, with those you know the mind of, becomes unlimited as long as you are on the same planet and plane. You gain a third Read Minds ability per long rest.
Psychoportation: L1: When you activate this power you begin rapidly shifting position within the 5’ space you occupy. This causes your image to blur to those viewing you giving them disadvantage on attacks against you. This disadvantage continues as long as you maintain concentration or up to 1 hour. L6: you gain the ability to warp space locally so that you can step up to 30’ away from your location as a single step. This step is not subject to opportunity attacks at either end. L14:the range of your warp step increases to 60’ L18: the range of your warp step increases to 120’
WillSpring – this ability allows you to tap into the deeper resources of your mind to alter or enhance your abilities in various ways. It is represented by your psionics power points. You gain 1 point per level and one point for each intelligence and wisdom bonus point you have (normal max = 30). These points can be used to improve the DC of a power, increase the damage of some powers (typically +1D6/point, max 3 points) or activate metapsionic effects on powers or metapsionic powers. You regain all expended psionics power points on a long rest.
MetaPsionics – This represents the Psion’s ability to alter or twist their powers to fit the needs of the moment. A psion gains 3 Metapsionic abilities at level 1 and 2 more each at level 10 and level 17. You can use only one metapsionic ability on a power unless noted differently below. The psionics power points needed to activate a metapsionic ability are noted in the descriptions.
1) Careful Power (1PPP) when you activate an area effect power requiring a saving throw this ability allows you to create pockets of safety within the area. Choose a number of those affected up to your Intellegence Bonus. Those individuals automatically save and take no damage from the power.
2) Distant Power (1PPP) allows you to either double the range of the power or grant a touch power a range of 30’.
3) Extended Power allows you to extend the time of effect of a power. Each psionics power point expended doubles the time (doesn’t work on instantanteous or 1 round duration powers) of effect up to 24 hours.
4) Quickened Power allows you to speed up the activation time of a power. It only works on powers that have a 1 action activation time. 2 psionic power points expended allow it to be activated as a bonus action while 3 expended allow it to be activated as a reaction.
5) Twinned Power allows you to duplicate the power attacking a second individual. The power must meet the following requirements: A) it targets a single creature, B) it is incapable of targeting more than 1 creature, C) it doesn’t have a range of self or touch
6) Transmuted power allows you to change the type of energy/damage the power does for 1 psionic power point.
7) Seeking power can be used even if you have already used a different metapsionic power. It allows you to reroll the attack roll of the power for 2 psionic power points.
8) Cannibalize allows the psion who is out of power points to sacrifice one of his hit dice using the roll to restore that many power points instead of hit points.
9) Gird allows a psion to maintain a concentration based power without concentration. This costs 2 power points.
10) Splice allows the psion to link 2 powers together activating both at once for 3 power points.
Powers
A Psion learns a total of 26 powers and gains a total of 22 activation slots by level 20. They can forgo using a higher level power to use a lower level power in a higher level slot. Doing so increases the damage of the lower level power by 1 D6 for each slot level it is raised. If a power doesn’t do damage but does have an extended duration then each increased level doubles the duration up to 24 hours. There are 10 levels of powers (corresponding to the 10 levels of magic (Cantrips and L1-9) as that is the format of such abilities in these worlds) Many of these powers are mimicked by spells of similar or the same name at roughly the same power levels. In addition there are a large number of powers that have not been duplicated by magic (yet). Some are specific to a particular Psionic Discipline but most are available for any discipline.
Discipline Powers:
Psychometabolism:
L1) Thicken Skin: +1 enhancement bonus to base AC for 1 hour
L2) Animal Affinity: +2 enhancement bonus to Strength/Dex/Con for 8 hours
L2) Empathic Transfer: transfers 1D8 +con bonus HP from you to another person healing them while you take the damage.
L2) Chameleon: Gain a +5 bonus to hide attempts for 1 minute
L3) Ectoplasmic Form: become insubstantial, able to pass through walls and fly (10’/r) for 1 minute
L3) Hustle: gain an extra move action this round.
L4) Metamorphosis: transform into a creature of CR1 or less for 10 minutes
L4) Psychic Vampire: touch attack drains 2 hit points/Level from target giving the Psion 2 power points per level.
L5) Psionic Revivify – restores life to a recently (10’ or less) dead individual.
L5) Biofeedback: Boosts 1-3 stats by draining 1-3 stats
L5) Restore Extremity: reattaches a severed limb or appendage to an individual if lost within 10’.
L6) Psionic Restoration: Restores level and ability drains
L7) Fission: create a duplicate of yourself for 10 minutes.
L8) Fusion: combine the abilities and forms of yourself and one other individual into a single being for 10 minutes.
L9) Greater Metamorphosis: Assume the shape of any nonunique creature or being of your CR or less for 1 hour.
Psychokinesis
L1) Control Object: Telekinetically animate a small or tiny object for 1 minute
L2) Control Air: Control the wind speed and direction in a 30’ radius for 1 minute.
L2) Energy Missile: Deal 2 D4+1 Energy damage of your choice to up to 5 subjects.
L3) Energy Cone: Deal 5D6 Energy damage of your choice to all in a 60’ cone.
L4) Control Body: Will vs Will contest – if you win you get rudimentary control of subject’s limbs for up to 1 minute, contest each round until they succeed.
L4) Energy Ball: deal 7D6 damage of your choice in a 20’r, 120’ range.
L4) Inertial Barrier: Gain +4 AC for 8 hours
L5) Energy Current: Deal 5D6 damage of your choice to first foe and half damage to second if within 10’ of first, 30’ range.
L5) Fiery Discorporation: Cheat death by Discorporating into a nearby (60’ range) fire for 1 day.
L6) Null Psionics Field: create a region where psionics doesn’t work 60’ radius.
L7) Redoppsi: Powers targeting you rebound onto manifestor. (Reaction)
L7) Spell Redoppsi: Spells targeting only you rebound onto caster (Reaction)
L8) Telekinetic Sphere: 10’ radius globe of telekinetic force blocks attacks for 10 minutes and moves with you.
L9) Tornado Blast: vortex of air subjects your foes to 17D6 force damage and moves them 20’ in a random direction
Psychoportation
L1) Burst: gain 10’ of speed for 1 minute
L1) Detect Teleportation: Detect portals and teleports if done within 120’.
L2) Dimensional Swap: you and an ally, or 2 allies within 30’ of each other swap places – no opportunity attacks.
L2) Levitate Subject moves up or down, and/or forward/back/sideways up to 30’/ round at your control for up to 1 minute.
L3) Astral Caravan: You lead astral travel enabled group to a destination via the astral plane.
L4) Dimensional Anchor: Bars extra dimensional travel while concentrating (1 hour max).
L4) Dismissal: forces a planar creature back to its home plane.
L4) Fly: Fly at 60/round for 1 hour
L5) Baleful Teleport: Forces subject (s) to teleport into a solid object doing 9D6 damage to subject(s) and object.
L5) Tesseract: warps space on this plane such that the subject(s) can step through to a distant (known) location.
L5) Tesseract Trigger: predetermined event triggers a tesseract.
L6) Banishment: Banishes extraplanar creatures to their home plane.
L7) Ethereal Jaunt: become Ethereal for 1 round per level
L8) Mass Time Hop: Willing subjects hop forward in time 1 round/level
L9) Teleportation Circle: circle teleports all inside it to a destination of your choosing.
L9) Time Regression: Relive the last round.
Clairsentience
L1) Destiny Dissounance: your touch sickens a foe (poisoned status for 1 minute)
L1) Precognition: Gain a +2 Insight bonus to one roll.
L2) Clairsentience: See and hear a distant location for up to 1 hour.
L2) Object Reading: Learn properties and information about an item.
L2) Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions: learn about events and history of a location.
L3) Escape Detection: those attempting to locate you with clairsentience or scrying type powers/ spells or abilities do so at disadvantage.
L4) Anchored navigation: establish a mishap free teleport/tesseract beacon.
L4) Remote viewing: See/hear/smell/ and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.
L5) Clairtangent Hand: able to see and reach into distant locations handling objects there.
L5) Second Chance: reroll last roll (Reaction)
L6) Greater Precognition: Gain a +4 enhancement bonus to a roll.
L7) Fate of One: Reroll the last (failed) roll.
L8) Hypercognition: +6 enhancement bonus to an intelligence check.
L9) Reality Revision: As with Wish.
Telepathy
L1) Charm: Wisdom save fail of foe makes them your friend (Psionic Charm Person)
L1) Forge Link: form a limited mental bond with subject.
L2) Aversion: Subject is averse to dealing with you or object/individual you specify (Psionic Fear)
L2) Brain Lock: Wisdom save or subject cannot move or take actions (Psionic Hold Person)
L2) Read Thoughts: Psionic Detect Thoughts.
L2) Suggestion: Wisdom Save or subject is compelled to follow stated course of action.
L3) Crisis of Breath: Constitution Save or subject’s breathing and speaking is disrupted.
L3) Hostile Empathic Transfer: touch attack transfers 3D8+Con Bonus damage to target while healing same amount of manifestor’s damage.
L3) False Sensory Input: Subject senses what isn’t there – (Psionic Illusion)
L4) Dominate: Psionic Dominate person
L4) Thieving Mindlink: Borrow knowledge of another psion’s power for 1 minute.
L4) Modify Memory: Change up to 5 minutes of the target’s memory.
L5) Schism: You are able to concentrate on 2 powers of different levels at the same time.
L6) Mindprobe: You discover target’s deepest thoughts.
L7) Mind Switch: You switch minds with target.
L8) Crisis of Life: Con save or subject dies of a heart attack. Save does 7D10 damage
L9) Psychic Churchery: repair psychic damage or psionically awaken target’s mind or teach Target a new ability.
Metacreativity
L1) Astral Construct: creates an astral construct to fight for you.
L1) Minor Creation: one cloth or wood object
L2) Repair Damage: repairs 3D8 + 1HP/L to constructs
L3) Concealing Amorpha: Quasi real membrane grants you concealment
L3) Ectoplasmic Cocoon: save or foe is restrained.
L4) Fabricate (as the spell)
L5) Hail of Crystals: a crystal explodes sending shards doing 9D4 to all in area (20’ sphere)
L6) Crystalize: Con save or Petrified into a crystal statue.
L6) Create Dorje: Copy a Fragment of your personality and power(s) into an item
L7) Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon: 20’radius effect – save or restrained
L8) Astral Seed: Create a seed of your person on the astral that will grow into a second you (Psionic Clone)
L9) True Creation: Form a permanent demiplane.
General Powers
Level 0: (I’ve used the cantrips to preserve the relative power level, as with cantrips these 0 level powers increase in damage with the manefestor’s level. * L1 Psionic powers converted to Cantrips)
Acid Splash, Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Chill Touch, Control Flames, Control Lights*, Create Bonfire, Create Sound*, Curtain of Light (Word of Radiance), Dancing Lights, Fire Bolt, Force Blast (Eldritch Blast), Friends, Frostbite, Green-Flame Blade, Guidance, Gust, Infestation, Light, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Magic Stone, Mending, Message, Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Naturecraft (Druidcraft), Poison Spray, Prestidigitation, Primal Savagery, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Resistance, Searing Light (Sacred Flame), Shape Water, Shillelagh, Shocking Grasp, Spare the Dying, Sword Burst, Thaumaturgy, Thorn Whip, Thunderclap, Bells of Death (Toll the Dead), True Strike, Vicious Mockery
Most spells from the published lists can be duplicated as powers of equivalent level, In addition are the following powers from the 1e - 2e Psionics books. I am listing only the names as I haven’t started trying to convert them to 5e. They are listed at the power level they are at in the earlier edition books, converting them may alter their level.
Level 1: Astral Traveler, Attraction, Bolt, Call to Mind, Catfall, Conceal Thoughts, Crystal Shard, Daze, Decelerate, Deflection Field, Déjà vu, Demoralize, Detect Psionics, Disable, Dissipating Touch, Distract, Ecto Protection, Eidetic Lock, Empathy, Empty Mind,Endure Elements, Energy Arc, Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Float, Force Screen (+2 AC), Grease, Hammer, Inertial Armor, Know Direction/location, Matter Agitation, Mind Thrust (1D10 psychic Damage), Missive, My Light, Defensive Precognition (Reaction), Offensive Precognition (Bonus Action), Offensive Prescience, Primal Fear, Sense Link, Slow Breathing, Skate, Stone Mind, Stygian Descernment, Synesthete, Telempathic Projection, Urban Strider, Vigor
Level 2: Bestow Power, Biofeedback, Body Equilibrium, Cloud Mind, Concealing Amorpha, Concussion Blast, Control Sounds, Crystal Storm, Damp Power, Detect Hostiles, Earth Walk, Ego Whip, Elemental Steward, Elf sight, Energy Adaptation – Minor, Energy Emanation, Energy Push, Energy Stun, Feat Leech, Id Insinuation, Psionic Identify, Inflict Pain, Larval Flayers, Levitate, Mental Disruption, Mass Missive, Psychic Scimitar, Psychoportive Shelter, Recall Agony, Forced sense link, Serenity, Stygian Ray, Sustenance, Swarm of Crystals, Thought Shield, Communicate (Psionic Tongues), Zone of Alertness
Level 3: Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Cerebral Phantasm, Danger Sense, Darkvision, Dimension Twister, Dismiss Ectoplasm, Dispel Psionics, Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Lance, Energy Retort, Energy Wall, Negate Invisibility, Exhalation of the Bronze Dragon, Heavy Earth, Keen edge, Mental Barrier, Mindfire, Mind Trap, Psionic Blast, Psi Trap (Glyph of Warding),Psychic Containment, Realized Potential, Forced Share Pain (reaction), Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust, Time Hop, Telekinetic Sight, Ubiquitous Vision
Level 4: Aura Sight, Correspond, Death Urge, Detect Remote sensing, Minor Tesseract (Dimension Door), Divination, Empathic Feedback, Energy Adaptation, Energy Flash, Freedom of Movement, Intellect Fortress, Mind Wipe, Personality Parasite, Planar Apothosis, Power Leech, Psychic Reformation, Shadow Eft, Suggestion Implant, Telekinetic Maneuver, Trace Teleport, Wall of Ectoplasm
Level 6: Aura Alteration, Breath of the Black Dragon, Mass Cloud Mind, Contingency, Co-opt Concentration, Disentegrate, Energy Barrage, Energy Nullification, Ethereal Abduction, Fuse Flesh, Inconstant Location, Mind over Energy, Overland Flight, Psychometry, Remote view Trap, Retrieve, Stygian Bolt, Suspend Life, Temporal Acceleration
Level 7: Decerebrate, Divert Teleport (reaction), *Energy Absorption, Energy Claw, Energy Conversion, Energy Wave, Evade Burst (reaction),Eyes of the Basilisk, Insanity, Mind Blank (Personal), Moment of Prescience, Oak Body, Phase Door, Planar Champion, Sequester, Ultrablast
Level 8: Bend reality, Iron Body, Matter manipulation, Mind Blank, Planar Embrace, Recall Death, Shadow Body, Stygian Veil, Greater Tesseract (teleport), True Metabolism
"How detectable is it?" and "is it mechanically magic?" are things you can tinker with after the frameworks are developed, and they're more chrome decisions than balance ones.
That is exactly backwards. Whether an ability is magic has no cosmetic effects -- all it does is determine how it interacts with abilities that specifically interact with magic, and almost all abilities like that are magical countermeasures. Thus, "not magical" means "immune to a broad class of countermeasures". Likewise, "How difficult is it to detect" is a pure balance issue, the chrome issue is "what does it look like".
"c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
Can you please look up the meaning of those words in a dictionary? They literally are antonyms. Treating them as synonyms is a quick route to confusion.
I.... I am treating them as antonyms 🤔 even in the very passage you just quoted.
My apologies. For some reason, my tired eyes skipped right over the word "antonym" in the part I quoted. I didn't even see it at first after I read your most recent post. Sorry.
What I'm saying is that in order to be balanced, psionic powers either need to be weaker than spells of the same character level, or they need to be fully transparent with spellcasting including the use of VSM spell components - it can't be neither.
You appear to (still) be ignoring the balancing factors of specialization vs generalization.
For example, consider a Wizard subclass (let's ignore the psion problem for the moment) called something like "pyrokineticist." This subclass is restricted to spells that do fire damage or are otherwise fire-themed (let's assume we have a concrete list of spells there that can be tweaked for specific balance concerns), but, in exchange, has an extra 20% spell slots to use for those fire spells, and always upcasts those fire spells by 1 spell level. (finally, for the sake of this example, assume many other details are worked out; I'm not willing to put extra time into this thought experiment.)
Would you consider such a subclass balanced? Do you think it could be balanced, by the right set of limitations, despite being strictly better than all Wizards at casting fire magic? Does your answer necessarily change if the acceptable "fire spells" list was shortened to only Fireball, but the components were only S?
to answer some of the questions/complaints from the antipsion side:
My take on psionics come from some personal experiences along with some fiction (david eddings especially) as well as a bunch of reading on ESP and various mentalist "abilities" back 50 years ago or so. to me psionics was best described by Eddngs - the will and the word - you form an idea of what you want then apply your will and a word of activation and the change you want in reality occurs. so verbal and somatic components but no material components and so no need for foci either.
When your best description of 'psionics' is the definition of sorcery in the Belgariad, you might want to rethink insisting that psis aren't sorcerers.
What I'm saying is that in order to be balanced, psionic powers either need to be weaker than spells of the same character level, or they need to be fully transparent with spellcasting including the use of VSM spell components - it can't be neither.
You appear to (still) be ignoring the balancing factors of specialization vs generalization.
For example, consider a Wizard subclass (let's ignore the psion problem for the moment) called something like "pyrokineticist." This subclass is restricted to spells that do fire damage or are otherwise fire-themed (let's assume we have a concrete list of spells there that can be tweaked for specific balance concerns), but, in exchange, has an extra 20% spell slots to use for those fire spells, and always upcasts those fire spells by 1 spell level. (finally, for the sake of this example, assume many other details are worked out; I'm not willing to put extra time into this thought experiment.)
Would you consider such a subclass balanced? Do you think it could be balanced, by the right set of limitations, despite being strictly better than all Wizards at casting fire magic? Does your answer necessarily change if the acceptable "fire spells" list was shortened to only Fireball, but the components were only S?
A mentalist vs. a pyrokineticist isn't comparable. A mentalist almost forces the GM to ensure that the encounters all include people/monsters subject to telepathic attack. Otherwise, the mentalist is going to be run at half-power and the player Is not going to be happy. But, having all encounters include people/monsters subject to telepathic attack means that a character depending on telepathic attack is no longer limited.
It is a similar problem to the Dawn Cleric in 3e who could obliterate undead, which encouraged the GM not to make a campaign based on undead, which rendered the Dawn Cleric half--powered.
to answer some of the questions/complaints from the antipsion side:
My take on psionics come from some personal experiences along with some fiction (david eddings especially) as well as a bunch of reading on ESP and various mentalist "abilities" back 50 years ago or so. to me psionics was best described by Eddngs - the will and the word - you form an idea of what you want then apply your will and a word of activation and the change you want in reality occurs. so verbal and somatic components but no material components and so no need for foci either.
When your best description of 'psionics' is the definition of sorcery in the Belgariad, you might want to rethink insisting that psis aren't sorcerers.
no its just the best description that fits my personal experiences of psi , maybe you need to rethink what sorcery, magic and psi are?
If people wanted wizard levels of power and versatility, they'd play a wizard.
There's a reason the idea of specialist casters keeps getting brought up here. A specialist gives up versatility to be better than the generalist at their specific thing.
To answer that question, you'd first need to define what "less than a wizard" even means. There's no simple measurement of power in this game. There isn't even in much less free-form games.
Is a character who can do more single-target damage than a wizard stronger or weaker? How about one with stronger area effect damage? The answer to both of those is "it depends on what else they can do", and, even with that answer, it depends on what you value most.
We're going to keep going around in circles because you all will never be satisfied with the answers you get.
Requiring a completely finished, perfectly balanced, fully written up proposal, or at least insisting that there is no point in even discussing the topic at all without all the details worked out, is disingenuous.
Going around in circles, indeed.
You are even cherry picking one spell, here, fireball and seemingly taking the position that the entire class is based around that spell.... What do YOU mean by 'less than a wizard?' Do you mean that the class should be underpowered compared to wizards?
And yes, it is easier to describe things in terms of existing spells because they already exist. Not sure there is anyone who considers the 4 element monk anything other than underpowered.... even if their fireballs do the same damage as a fireball cast by a wizard. Classes are compared in a holistic manner, complete class vs complete class, not in that cherry picked "This one ability is equal!" kind of way.
I agree it's not necessarily simple, but we're not completely bereft of guidance either. We have benchmarks for certain abilities - we know how much damage spells should do at various levels, so if a psionic blasting ability does damage, we have a starting point for calculating how much. We also know things like encounter-long Flight should probably start around character level 5, long duration mind control for humanoids should kick in around character level 7 while for non-humanoids it would be much later, long distance teleportation should kick in around level 13 and so on. Even if your preference is for psionic powers to not use the spellcasting framework specifically, that framework still lets us identify when certain capabilities should be made available to the PCs.
From there you layer on what else you want from the system. If the goal is for psionic powers to get to ignore spell components for example, or bypass defenses like magic resistance/detection/dispelling/countering, then those are advantages that need to be offset by making them weaker, more limited in use etc.
Those are the answers we're not getting, therefore there is nothing to be satisfied with.
Yes, there will have to be trade offs for the advantages. No one has said otherwise. This does not mean those trade offs automatically equal 'power levels ground into uselessness.' "Is not magic" does not automatically equal "Is unstoppable."
"Has some level of versatility" does not equal "Has wizard levels of versatility"
You are asking finalization questions and acting like they are make and break on basic concept. And, for that matter, as if you have some sort of veto power.
I don't pretend to have any kind of veto power. Heck, you don't even have to read any of my objections if you don't want to; the ignore button is right there on the left side of your screen.
I don't think "is not magic" = "unstoppable" either, but I haven't seen any solutions for the three main problems I raised in #889.
Ok, will try this one more time, with what I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) your 'three main problems:'
a) Conveniently vague on your part. What, ANY things that spell casting can do? This is a different version of the "No overlap with Druid transformations" argument.
b) If this is an issue, then you presumably consider the already existing Aberrant Mind OP.
c) Please restate this, since opaque means "visible and blocking to." I don't think it means what you think it means. Even taking it as what I think you do mean, you state this as an absolute, which it would not be. Again, there are spells which would block Psi abilities. If you are insisting, though, that it should function identically to anti-magic as magic does, no. It does not have to. It can have different counters and still have equivalent (but different) limitations.
These have been addressed. You seem to feel they are not addressed to your satisfaction without full details, again, without a fully flushed out system. That is a completely unreasonable expectation, if you are still holding to that.
Those are calibrations for generalists.
If a character can get flight at 3rd, but at the cost of not seeing high-damage area-effects until 11 (if at all), is that balanced? What if it's flight for you only?*
More generally, if the specialist is no better at the things they get than the generalist is, why specialize?
And the damage table is untethered from the reality of casters. Lots of extant damage spells are over, frequently way over. (And then there's Meteor Storm.) And there are weird anomalies. (Cold spells just seem to be straight worse, with no compensating advantages.) It doesn't give any guidance about delayed/continuing damage, or side effects.
* Unlimited flight for you only is potentially available at character creation
You seem to be arguing that balance can go only one way.
Those "three main problems" being:
(a) makes an unsupported assumption about how a psi class must work
(b) and (c) are just not that important
The main problems of designing a psi class are things like:
"How detectable is it?" and "is it mechanically magic?" are things you can tinker with after the frameworks are developed, and they're more chrome decisions than balance ones.
Edit: Forgot a main problem, probably the main question:
What is the class fantasy?
a) I wasn't part of the druid discussion and can't speak to it; debate that with whoever you were debating it with. What I'm saying is that in order to be balanced, psionic powers either need to be weaker than spells of the same character level, or they need to be fully transparent with spellcasting including the use of VSM spell components - it can't be neither.
b) I don't, because Aberrant Mind spells are (a) transparent with spellcasting (because they ARE spellcasting), and (b) they pay for getting to bypass spell components by requiring sorcery points, which functionally reduces the Aberrant Mind's output per long rest if you want to manifest everything that way. That's a viable tradeoff.
c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
c-ii) You say "there are spells which would block psi abilities" - but which ones? Counterspell can't, since they don't have components as presented. You all seem opposed to dispel magic and antimagic blocking them as well, or at least you won't commit on that point one way or the other, which leaves us nowhere to go but to highlight the worst case scenario. And even if you did invent a bunch of brand new spells that can block psi abilities, (a) monsters won't have access to these without reams of errata, and (b) PCs won't want to pick them up for such a narrow rock-paper-scissors scenario either, so they won't be worth the paper they're printed on.
Regarding (a), if you're okay with the psi class being weaker then that does open up more design space for opacity with spellcasting. A Psi Warrior is certainly weaker than a wizard, and arguably may even be weaker than an Eldritch Knight, for example.
Regarding (b) and (c) - you're welcome to not see them as important, but that leaves us with nowhere to go but to agree to disagree. Our side does see them as important.
"c-i) I'm using "opaque" as a shorthand antonym for "transparent."
Can you please look up the meaning of those words in a dictionary? They literally are antonyms. Treating them as synonyms is a quick route to confusion.
I.... I am treating them as antonyms 🤔 even in the very passage you just quoted.
a) The problem is you are cherry picking each and every spell individually rather than understanding that a character is, well, a character. Any given specific part may be stronger or weaker than a similar part of another character. If they all had to be exactly the same in every way, there would be only one character class.
b) You are using "Transparent" and "Opaque" in strange ways. "Transparent" means "invisible to.. passes through... does not block." There will presumably be some mechanism limiting use of (likely most) Psion abilities. Again, this would be on an ability by ability basis and would need balancing.
c) Mind Blank, at the high end. Intellect Fortress, mid-range. There could well be a new Anti-Psi Field and could well be other counter-measure spells. Meanwhile, you seem to think that monsters are some sort of actually existent beings. They are not. They are fictional. If a DM is using this hypothetical new class, which they would have veto power over doing, they would presumably modify creatures in any way they thought fit. DM's are human beings. They are more competent than you seem to give them credit for being.
"a) The problem is you are cherry picking each and every spell individually rather than understanding that a character is, well, a character. "
That's a funny comment coming from a guy who has failed to give us a class description and, therefore, has given us no choice but to look at only bits and pieces at a time.
to answer some of the questions/complaints from the antipsion side:
My take on psionics come from some personal experiences along with some fiction (david eddings especially) as well as a bunch of reading on ESP and various mentalist "abilities" back 50 years ago or so. to me psionics was best described by Eddngs - the will and the word - you form an idea of what you want then apply your will and a word of activation and the change you want in reality occurs. so verbal and somatic components but no material components and so no need for foci either.
I run a modified FR world so to help understand what follows some modified Lore: More than 35,000 years ago as even the Sarukh were just developing some sort of civilization two groups of beings discovered ways to alter the world around them in extranormal ways. the first were folk who found they could sense and manipulate threads of man/magic in the world around them to make unusual things occur - the first sorcerers. the other group couldn't sense this magical field but found that through force of will alone they could manifest their spoke desires - the first psions. Both were rare and because they seemed to do the same things the vast majority of folk thought of them as the same. in discussions between members of each group they came to recognize that they while similar they did things in completely different ways that the other group generally couldn't fathom. Over time a third group and a fourth groups developed. the third group learned to create and record formulas of material, sounds and actions that could activate the magic fields to do specific things and so the first wizards came into existance. the fourth group came into contact with supernatural beings of great power who would grant them some modicum of their power in exchange for service or worship. these became the clerics and warlocks. /end lore dump
Ive heard repeated calls for what we want in psionics so the spoiler below is the write up I use for psi in my campaign. Its complete enough to give you a sense but there are things at the end that still need final sortings out. I'm not actively working on it as I'm currently playing not really DMing. I've put it in a spoiler as its long (7+ pages) so feel free to read or skip as you choose.
Psionics and Psions (class)
Psionics is the very rare ability to directly manipulate the universe around the character by the direct application of mental”force”. The Awakened mind has learned to manipulate its surroundings as simply and directly as it manipulates its body. This manipulation does not involve the use of Mana or a magical “Weave”. Therefore it can act even in zones of suppressed or canceled or null magic. It is however possible to establish fields that suppress the use of Psionics as well. However this is seldom done as many (perhaps most) people (even magic wielders) don’t realize that psionics is separate from magic due to its rarity. Many psionics abilities have been mimicked by magic spells and so carry similar or the same names despite their very different sources. Once the mind has been awakened to psionics it requires self discipline and training to develop and enhance a person’s abilities to their fullest. Psionic abilities fall into 5 broad groups known as disciplines based on their area or style of effect and most psionicists focus on a single discipline. This does not mean that they can’t have developed specific abilities from any of the disciplines however. These disciplines are:
1) Clairsentience – the ability to use various senses at distant and/or remote locations.
2) Psychokinesis – the ability to control objects or energies outside the body.
3) Psychometabolism – the ability to enhance or temporarily modify the body to make it heal or function effectively in different environments.
4) Telepathy – the ability to communicate directly, brain to brain, without the use of language and with essentially any creature or being.
5) Psychoportation – the ability to warp space in such a way as to jump instantly from one location to another or even (for highly skilled practioners) from one plane to another.
There is also the realm of Metapsionics which covers the ways a psionicist can adapt or modify their abilities on the fly to meet novel situations or to link abilities to create unusual or enhanced effects.
Psionicists are those individuals who, having awakened their minds, have chosen to focus on their abilities mastering the direct manipulation of their world rather than developing their abilities as a means of focusing on combat/roguery/spell casting or other areas of concentration. In some respects they resemble various types of spell casters but they normally do not need more than a quiet word and their will to create their effects. To become a Psion an individual needs an intelligence, wisdom and constitution of 13 or higher. Because of their unspecialized background before the awakening of their mind they are proficient in common, an appropriate racial language, simple weapons and any appropriate racial weapons, and with light armors. They can have any background and have a D8 for hit dice. At level 1 they get 8+ constitution bonus hit points. They get Constitution and Wisdom Save Proficiencies. They get 3 skills or tool proficiencies of their choice. Characters multi-classing into psion gain a single skill or tool proficiency instead.
Psion Progression
Level
Features
PPP
L0Ps
L1Ps
L2Ps
L3Ps
L4Ps
L5Ps
L6Ps
L7Ps
L8Ps
L9Ps
1
Psionics
Disciplines
0
4
2
2
Willspring
2+
4
3
3
MetaPsionics
3+
4
4
2
4
ASI
4+
5
4
3
5
5+
5
4
3
2
6
Discipline
6+
5
4
3
3
7
7+
5
4
3
3
1
8
ASI
8+
5
4
3
3
2
9
9+
5
4
3
3
3
1
10
MetaPsionics
10+
6
4
3
3
3
2
11
11+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
12
ASI
12+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
13
13+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
14
Discipline
14+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
15
15+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
16
ASI
16+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
17
MetaPsionics
17+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
18
Discipline
18+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
19
ASI
19+
6
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
1
20
Capstone
20+
6
4
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
1
Psionics – the character’s mind is awakened (how this happen should be described in the background/Personality section) and they become a psionicist and are able to use psionics.
Discipline – The Psion chooses a primary and secondary discipline to begin their training. They then get the basic abilities of the discipline which are available for use Proficiency bonus times per short rest. At each Discipline enhancement level they may either add the enhanced abilities for their disciplines or add the basic abilities of an additional discipline. These abilities are listed below:
WillSpring – this ability allows you to tap into the deeper resources of your mind to alter or enhance your abilities in various ways. It is represented by your psionics power points. You gain 1 point per level and one point for each intelligence and wisdom bonus point you have (normal max = 30). These points can be used to improve the DC of a power, increase the damage of some powers (typically +1D6/point, max 3 points) or activate metapsionic effects on powers or metapsionic powers. You regain all expended psionics power points on a long rest.
MetaPsionics – This represents the Psion’s ability to alter or twist their powers to fit the needs of the moment. A psion gains 3 Metapsionic abilities at level 1 and 2 more each at level 10 and level 17. You can use only one metapsionic ability on a power unless noted differently below. The psionics power points needed to activate a metapsionic ability are noted in the descriptions.
1) Careful Power (1PPP) when you activate an area effect power requiring a saving throw this ability allows you to create pockets of safety within the area. Choose a number of those affected up to your Intellegence Bonus. Those individuals automatically save and take no damage from the power.
2) Distant Power (1PPP) allows you to either double the range of the power or grant a touch power a range of 30’.
3) Extended Power allows you to extend the time of effect of a power. Each psionics power point expended doubles the time (doesn’t work on instantanteous or 1 round duration powers) of effect up to 24 hours.
4) Quickened Power allows you to speed up the activation time of a power. It only works on powers that have a 1 action activation time. 2 psionic power points expended allow it to be activated as a bonus action while 3 expended allow it to be activated as a reaction.
5) Twinned Power allows you to duplicate the power attacking a second individual. The power must meet the following requirements: A) it targets a single creature, B) it is incapable of targeting more than 1 creature, C) it doesn’t have a range of self or touch
6) Transmuted power allows you to change the type of energy/damage the power does for 1 psionic power point.
7) Seeking power can be used even if you have already used a different metapsionic power. It allows you to reroll the attack roll of the power for 2 psionic power points.
8) Cannibalize allows the psion who is out of power points to sacrifice one of his hit dice using the roll to restore that many power points instead of hit points.
9) Gird allows a psion to maintain a concentration based power without concentration. This costs 2 power points.
10) Splice allows the psion to link 2 powers together activating both at once for 3 power points.
Powers
A Psion learns a total of 26 powers and gains a total of 22 activation slots by level 20. They can forgo using a higher level power to use a lower level power in a higher level slot. Doing so increases the damage of the lower level power by 1 D6 for each slot level it is raised. If a power doesn’t do damage but does have an extended duration then each increased level doubles the duration up to 24 hours. There are 10 levels of powers (corresponding to the 10 levels of magic (Cantrips and L1-9) as that is the format of such abilities in these worlds) Many of these powers are mimicked by spells of similar or the same name at roughly the same power levels. In addition there are a large number of powers that have not been duplicated by magic (yet). Some are specific to a particular Psionic Discipline but most are available for any discipline.
Discipline Powers:
Psychometabolism:
L1) Thicken Skin: +1 enhancement bonus to base AC for 1 hour
L2) Animal Affinity: +2 enhancement bonus to Strength/Dex/Con for 8 hours
L2) Empathic Transfer: transfers 1D8 +con bonus HP from you to another person healing them while you take the damage.
L2) Chameleon: Gain a +5 bonus to hide attempts for 1 minute
L3) Ectoplasmic Form: become insubstantial, able to pass through walls and fly (10’/r) for 1 minute
L3) Hustle: gain an extra move action this round.
L4) Metamorphosis: transform into a creature of CR1 or less for 10 minutes
L4) Psychic Vampire: touch attack drains 2 hit points/Level from target giving the Psion 2 power points per level.
L5) Psionic Revivify – restores life to a recently (10’ or less) dead individual.
L5) Biofeedback: Boosts 1-3 stats by draining 1-3 stats
L5) Restore Extremity: reattaches a severed limb or appendage to an individual if lost within 10’.
L6) Psionic Restoration: Restores level and ability drains
L7) Fission: create a duplicate of yourself for 10 minutes.
L8) Fusion: combine the abilities and forms of yourself and one other individual into a single being for 10 minutes.
L9) Greater Metamorphosis: Assume the shape of any nonunique creature or being of your CR or less for 1 hour.
Psychokinesis
L1) Control Object: Telekinetically animate a small or tiny object for 1 minute
L2) Control Air: Control the wind speed and direction in a 30’ radius for 1 minute.
L2) Energy Missile: Deal 2 D4+1 Energy damage of your choice to up to 5 subjects.
L3) Energy Cone: Deal 5D6 Energy damage of your choice to all in a 60’ cone.
L4) Control Body: Will vs Will contest – if you win you get rudimentary control of subject’s limbs for up to 1 minute, contest each round until they succeed.
L4) Energy Ball: deal 7D6 damage of your choice in a 20’r, 120’ range.
L4) Inertial Barrier: Gain +4 AC for 8 hours
L5) Energy Current: Deal 5D6 damage of your choice to first foe and half damage to second if within 10’ of first, 30’ range.
L5) Fiery Discorporation: Cheat death by Discorporating into a nearby (60’ range) fire for 1 day.
L6) Null Psionics Field: create a region where psionics doesn’t work 60’ radius.
L7) Redoppsi: Powers targeting you rebound onto manifestor. (Reaction)
L7) Spell Redoppsi: Spells targeting only you rebound onto caster (Reaction)
L8) Telekinetic Sphere: 10’ radius globe of telekinetic force blocks attacks for 10 minutes and moves with you.
L9) Tornado Blast: vortex of air subjects your foes to 17D6 force damage and moves them 20’ in a random direction
Psychoportation
L1) Burst: gain 10’ of speed for 1 minute
L1) Detect Teleportation: Detect portals and teleports if done within 120’.
L2) Dimensional Swap: you and an ally, or 2 allies within 30’ of each other swap places – no opportunity attacks.
L2) Levitate Subject moves up or down, and/or forward/back/sideways up to 30’/ round at your control for up to 1 minute.
L3) Astral Caravan: You lead astral travel enabled group to a destination via the astral plane.
L4) Dimensional Anchor: Bars extra dimensional travel while concentrating (1 hour max).
L4) Dismissal: forces a planar creature back to its home plane.
L4) Fly: Fly at 60/round for 1 hour
L5) Baleful Teleport: Forces subject (s) to teleport into a solid object doing 9D6 damage to subject(s) and object.
L5) Tesseract: warps space on this plane such that the subject(s) can step through to a distant (known) location.
L5) Tesseract Trigger: predetermined event triggers a tesseract.
L6) Banishment: Banishes extraplanar creatures to their home plane.
L7) Ethereal Jaunt: become Ethereal for 1 round per level
L8) Mass Time Hop: Willing subjects hop forward in time 1 round/level
L9) Teleportation Circle: circle teleports all inside it to a destination of your choosing.
L9) Time Regression: Relive the last round.
Clairsentience
L1) Destiny Dissounance: your touch sickens a foe (poisoned status for 1 minute)
L1) Precognition: Gain a +2 Insight bonus to one roll.
L2) Clairsentience: See and hear a distant location for up to 1 hour.
L2) Object Reading: Learn properties and information about an item.
L2) Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions: learn about events and history of a location.
L3) Escape Detection: those attempting to locate you with clairsentience or scrying type powers/ spells or abilities do so at disadvantage.
L4) Anchored navigation: establish a mishap free teleport/tesseract beacon.
L4) Remote viewing: See/hear/smell/ and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.
L5) Clairtangent Hand: able to see and reach into distant locations handling objects there.
L5) Second Chance: reroll last roll (Reaction)
L6) Greater Precognition: Gain a +4 enhancement bonus to a roll.
L7) Fate of One: Reroll the last (failed) roll.
L8) Hypercognition: +6 enhancement bonus to an intelligence check.
L9) Reality Revision: As with Wish.
Telepathy
L1) Charm: Wisdom save fail of foe makes them your friend (Psionic Charm Person)
L1) Forge Link: form a limited mental bond with subject.
L2) Aversion: Subject is averse to dealing with you or object/individual you specify (Psionic Fear)
L2) Brain Lock: Wisdom save or subject cannot move or take actions (Psionic Hold Person)
L2) Read Thoughts: Psionic Detect Thoughts.
L2) Suggestion: Wisdom Save or subject is compelled to follow stated course of action.
L3) Crisis of Breath: Constitution Save or subject’s breathing and speaking is disrupted.
L3) Hostile Empathic Transfer: touch attack transfers 3D8+Con Bonus damage to target while healing same amount of manifestor’s damage.
L3) False Sensory Input: Subject senses what isn’t there – (Psionic Illusion)
L4) Dominate: Psionic Dominate person
L4) Thieving Mindlink: Borrow knowledge of another psion’s power for 1 minute.
L4) Modify Memory: Change up to 5 minutes of the target’s memory.
L5) Schism: You are able to concentrate on 2 powers of different levels at the same time.
L6) Mindprobe: You discover target’s deepest thoughts.
L7) Mind Switch: You switch minds with target.
L8) Crisis of Life: Con save or subject dies of a heart attack. Save does 7D10 damage
L9) Psychic Churchery: repair psychic damage or psionically awaken target’s mind or teach Target a new ability.
Metacreativity
L1) Astral Construct: creates an astral construct to fight for you.
L1) Minor Creation: one cloth or wood object
L2) Repair Damage: repairs 3D8 + 1HP/L to constructs
L3) Concealing Amorpha: Quasi real membrane grants you concealment
L3) Ectoplasmic Cocoon: save or foe is restrained.
L4) Fabricate (as the spell)
L5) Hail of Crystals: a crystal explodes sending shards doing 9D4 to all in area (20’ sphere)
L6) Crystalize: Con save or Petrified into a crystal statue.
L6) Create Dorje: Copy a Fragment of your personality and power(s) into an item
L7) Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon: 20’radius effect – save or restrained
L8) Astral Seed: Create a seed of your person on the astral that will grow into a second you (Psionic Clone)
L9) True Creation: Form a permanent demiplane.
General Powers
Level 0: (I’ve used the cantrips to preserve the relative power level, as with cantrips these 0 level powers increase in damage with the manefestor’s level. * L1 Psionic powers converted to Cantrips)
Acid Splash, Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Chill Touch, Control Flames, Control Lights*, Create Bonfire, Create Sound*, Curtain of Light (Word of Radiance), Dancing Lights, Fire Bolt, Force Blast (Eldritch Blast), Friends, Frostbite, Green-Flame Blade, Guidance, Gust, Infestation, Light, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Magic Stone, Mending, Message, Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Naturecraft (Druidcraft), Poison Spray, Prestidigitation, Primal Savagery, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Resistance, Searing Light (Sacred Flame), Shape Water, Shillelagh, Shocking Grasp, Spare the Dying, Sword Burst, Thaumaturgy, Thorn Whip, Thunderclap, Bells of Death (Toll the Dead), True Strike, Vicious Mockery
Most spells from the published lists can be duplicated as powers of equivalent level, In addition are the following powers from the 1e - 2e Psionics books. I am listing only the names as I haven’t started trying to convert them to 5e. They are listed at the power level they are at in the earlier edition books, converting them may alter their level.
Level 1: Astral Traveler, Attraction, Bolt, Call to Mind, Catfall, Conceal Thoughts, Crystal Shard, Daze, Decelerate, Deflection Field, Déjà vu, Demoralize, Detect Psionics, Disable, Dissipating Touch, Distract, Ecto Protection, Eidetic Lock, Empathy, Empty Mind,Endure Elements, Energy Arc, Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Float, Force Screen (+2 AC), Grease, Hammer, Inertial Armor, Know Direction/location, Matter Agitation, Mind Thrust (1D10 psychic Damage), Missive, My Light, Defensive Precognition (Reaction), Offensive Precognition (Bonus Action), Offensive Prescience, Primal Fear, Sense Link, Slow Breathing, Skate, Stone Mind, Stygian Descernment, Synesthete, Telempathic Projection, Urban Strider, Vigor
Level 2: Bestow Power, Biofeedback, Body Equilibrium, Cloud Mind, Concealing Amorpha, Concussion Blast, Control Sounds, Crystal Storm, Damp Power, Detect Hostiles, Earth Walk, Ego Whip, Elemental Steward, Elf sight, Energy Adaptation – Minor, Energy Emanation, Energy Push, Energy Stun, Feat Leech, Id Insinuation, Psionic Identify, Inflict Pain, Larval Flayers, Levitate, Mental Disruption, Mass Missive, Psychic Scimitar, Psychoportive Shelter, Recall Agony, Forced sense link, Serenity, Stygian Ray, Sustenance, Swarm of Crystals, Thought Shield, Communicate (Psionic Tongues), Zone of Alertness
Level 3: Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Cerebral Phantasm, Danger Sense, Darkvision, Dimension Twister, Dismiss Ectoplasm, Dispel Psionics, Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Lance, Energy Retort, Energy Wall, Negate Invisibility, Exhalation of the Bronze Dragon, Heavy Earth, Keen edge, Mental Barrier, Mindfire, Mind Trap, Psionic Blast, Psi Trap (Glyph of Warding),Psychic Containment, Realized Potential, Forced Share Pain (reaction), Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust, Time Hop, Telekinetic Sight, Ubiquitous Vision
Level 4: Aura Sight, Correspond, Death Urge, Detect Remote sensing, Minor Tesseract (Dimension Door), Divination, Empathic Feedback, Energy Adaptation, Energy Flash, Freedom of Movement, Intellect Fortress, Mind Wipe, Personality Parasite, Planar Apothosis, Power Leech, Psychic Reformation, Shadow Eft, Suggestion Implant, Telekinetic Maneuver, Trace Teleport, Wall of Ectoplasm
Level 5: Adapt Body, Anticipatory Strike, Catepsi, Celestial Conduit, Cranial Deluge, Detain Ectoplasm, Ectoplasmic Shambler, Ethereal Agent, Incarnate (Psionic Permanency), Leech Field, Psionic Plane Shift, Power Resistance, Psychic Crush, Shatter Mind Blank, Greater Stomp, Stygian Dominion, Suppress Schism, Telekinetic Buffer, Tower of Iron Will, True Seeing
Level 6: Aura Alteration, Breath of the Black Dragon, Mass Cloud Mind, Contingency, Co-opt Concentration, Disentegrate, Energy Barrage, Energy Nullification, Ethereal Abduction, Fuse Flesh, Inconstant Location, Mind over Energy, Overland Flight, Psychometry, Remote view Trap, Retrieve, Stygian Bolt, Suspend Life, Temporal Acceleration
Level 7: Decerebrate, Divert Teleport (reaction), *Energy Absorption, Energy Claw, Energy Conversion, Energy Wave, Evade Burst (reaction),Eyes of the Basilisk, Insanity, Mind Blank (Personal), Moment of Prescience, Oak Body, Phase Door, Planar Champion, Sequester, Ultrablast
Level 8: Bend reality, Iron Body, Matter manipulation, Mind Blank, Planar Embrace, Recall Death, Shadow Body, Stygian Veil, Greater Tesseract (teleport), True Metabolism
Level 9: Affinity Field, Aposi, Assimilate, Etherealness, Microcosm, Reality revision, Stygian Conflagration, Timeless Body, Urge Extermination
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That is exactly backwards. Whether an ability is magic has no cosmetic effects -- all it does is determine how it interacts with abilities that specifically interact with magic, and almost all abilities like that are magical countermeasures. Thus, "not magical" means "immune to a broad class of countermeasures". Likewise, "How difficult is it to detect" is a pure balance issue, the chrome issue is "what does it look like".
My apologies. For some reason, my tired eyes skipped right over the word "antonym" in the part I quoted. I didn't even see it at first after I read your most recent post. Sorry.
You appear to (still) be ignoring the balancing factors of specialization vs generalization.
For example, consider a Wizard subclass (let's ignore the psion problem for the moment) called something like "pyrokineticist." This subclass is restricted to spells that do fire damage or are otherwise fire-themed (let's assume we have a concrete list of spells there that can be tweaked for specific balance concerns), but, in exchange, has an extra 20% spell slots to use for those fire spells, and always upcasts those fire spells by 1 spell level. (finally, for the sake of this example, assume many other details are worked out; I'm not willing to put extra time into this thought experiment.)
Would you consider such a subclass balanced? Do you think it could be balanced, by the right set of limitations, despite being strictly better than all Wizards at casting fire magic? Does your answer necessarily change if the acceptable "fire spells" list was shortened to only Fireball, but the components were only S?
When your best description of 'psionics' is the definition of sorcery in the Belgariad, you might want to rethink insisting that psis aren't sorcerers.
A mentalist vs. a pyrokineticist isn't comparable. A mentalist almost forces the GM to ensure that the encounters all include people/monsters subject to telepathic attack. Otherwise, the mentalist is going to be run at half-power and the player Is not going to be happy. But, having all encounters include people/monsters subject to telepathic attack means that a character depending on telepathic attack is no longer limited.
It is a similar problem to the Dawn Cleric in 3e who could obliterate undead, which encouraged the GM not to make a campaign based on undead, which rendered the Dawn Cleric half--powered.
no its just the best description that fits my personal experiences of psi , maybe you need to rethink what sorcery, magic and psi are?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That easy: sorcery and psi (and a bunch of other things) are specific types of magic.