I've seen it. I don't agree with it. I understand how Ophidimancer feels about it, but that doesn't mean I agree that's how it is.
You don't get to agree or disagree about how something makes someone feel. It's not your place to decide how certain language is painful to other people.
Of course not. That's why I said I understand how you feel about it. But any language can be painful to anyone for any reason. For 5E, the language is clean enough in my opinion. Note that I say this about 5E and not D&D in general, that I say it's clean enough rather than clean period, and that it's obviously my opinion.
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For example a Halfling Goliath would be small size but get powerful build? This equates to a zero add as small characters would move to medium which infers no added benefit.
Would likely be better for the player to get Stones Endurance instead.
Also for a Goliath Halfling (who stands at 5 ft tall instead of 8ft) and are medium in size hiding behind a creature one size larger (Large) may not come up enough to be worth it for the player so I would opt for either the Lucky feature or the Brave feature after working with the player.
I've seen it. I don't agree with it. I understand how Ophidimancer feels about it, but that doesn't mean I agree that's how it is.
You don't get to agree or disagree about how something makes someone feel. It's not your place to decide how certain language is painful to other people.
Of course not. That's why I said I understand how you feel about it. But any language can be painful to anyone for any reason. For 5E, the language is clean enough in my opinion. Note that I say this about 5E and not D&D in general, that I say it's clean enough rather than clean period, and that it's obviously my opinion.
So you understand how certain portrayals are painful to not just me, but a lot of people, and you're just like, "Yeah, I'm fine with that?" It's awfully easy to say something is fine when you're not getting the sharp end of the stick.
"Any language can be painful to anyone for any reason" sounds awfully like you don't think our reasons for feeling pain are actually good or reasonable reasons, or was there another conclusion I was supposed to make from this sentence?
Through this conversation I've just been saying "I like this change" it's just kind of a relief of a change. Is my relief what ... unnecessary? Is it something else you disagree with?
You don't like the changes? Fine. I have never had any problem with anyone saying that, but this ... this dismissive attitude of other people's feelings? Unkind. And not a good look.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
"Any language can be painful to anyone for any reason" sounds awfully like you don't think our reasons for feeling pain are actually good or reasonable reasons, or was there another conclusion I was supposed to make from this sentence?
I'm not particularly happy with some of the cosmology and religion tropes presented in the game. I'm sure other people have problems with other things. I recall entire threads about player agency and spells potentially taking that away not sitting well with some. There was certainly a lot to do about the language in Van Richten's. I wasn't commenting on the reasons, and certainly not on whether they're good reasons or not. I said the books are filled with things some people may not like for all sorts of reasons. That's not a good thing, but it's to an extent an unavoidable thing. You draw the line to where that extent goes in a different place than I do, and that's valid.
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Worth noting, Pang: "Everything is offensive to someone" is a very common refrain by 'based/unwoke' sorts, who almost always follow the line up with a variation on "so I choose not to care who I offend or how because they'll find an excuse anyways". I know that's not how you meant it, but the very idea of 'everything is offensive to someone', while technically true, is something of a poisoned well with a lot of folks on Ophidimancer's side of the fence. It's so often used as a means to dismiss offense and pain that it's hard for us to see it as anything else, honestly. So...fair caution, I suppose.
It's so often used as a means to dismiss offense and pain that it's hard for us to see it as anything else, honestly. So...fair caution, I suppose.
I know, and that honestly doesn't sit well with me. I just can't very well argue that I have my reasons but I won't speak of them because they've been perverted by others too many times.
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I know, and that honestly doesn't sit well with me. I just can't very well argue that I have my reasons but I won't speak of them because they've been perverted by others too many times.
No, go ahead and speak your reasoning, but be aware that you will be called out on their merits.
I said the books are filled with things some people may not like for all sorts of reasons. That's not a good thing, but it's to an extent an unavoidable thing. You draw the line to where that extent goes in a different place than I do, and that's valid.
I didn't need you to validate me drawing a line, because drawing a line for myself isn't exactly what I was doing, and especially not drawing a line just for myself and leaving everyone else to hang.
Media is imperfect, we're all still learning how to interact with each other, how not to hurt one another, how to to uplift and empower each other as human beings. Yes we all have different ideas and perspectives and won't agree on things, but it's a work in progress. The goal is not perfection, the goal is constant improvement. As we learn more about the human condition, we get better at dealing with it. Everyone drawing their own line about the minimum level of hurt they will put up with in order to participate in society may be what it looks like people are doing but that's just not good enough!
I'm constantly learning how things that I think are normal and acceptable can make other people feel uncomfortable and I make efforts to change my behavior and my speech. Are these things sometimes annoying or frustrating to me? Yes. Are my efforts sometimes in vain? Yes. But that doesn't stop me from continually trying to make myself a better person for the people around me.
Sometimes I find myself at the limits of my sympathy and internally think, "Well that's just silly" but I would never say it out loud because even if I have run out of sympathy, I know that the people around me deserve more of it.
So no, I don't accept "that's not good, but it's unavoidable" because I don't think you should, either.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
So no, I don't accept "that's not good, but it's unavoidable" because I don't think you should, either.
Fair enough, but then what do we put in the books and what do we take out? Is it bad or weird to decide that yes, you think something is silly but no, you don't say that because people deserve more empathy than that but yes, you think that whatever it is you feel others were silly about can have a place in the books? I'm not saying don't try to do better. I'm saying we have different ideas about it. Being OK with racial ASIs doesn't mean being OK with any which way they might be presented. It also doesn't mean being OK with people who dislike them feeling bad about them being in the books. It means being OK with them, and wanting them included in a way that doesn't hurt anyone. And maybe that's not possible, and we can talk about that. But I don't think they should just be tossed out as if they're an absolute evil.
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Actually, it's not. If we consider a level 1 fighter vs an AC 12 target (longsword, dueling style)
Str 15: 65% chance to hit, 1d8+4 damage, 5% to crit for +1d8, expected damage 5.75
Str 16: 70% chance to hit, 1d8+5 damage, 5% to crit for +1d8, expected damage 6.875
6.875/5.75 = 1.196
So, 5% is actually 19%. Now, lets look at spellcasters. Assume target has a +0 save
Int 15: save DC 12; target saves 45% of the time. A save negates effect has a 55% chance to apply, a save ends effect lasts an average of 1.22 rounds.
Int 16: save DC 13; target saves 40% of the time. A save negates effect has a 60% chance to apply (+9% to expected effect), a save ends effect lasts an average of 1.5 rounds (+22.7% to expected duration).
No, that 5% is a 5%, where are you getting this mythical "19%"? When you divided 6.875 by 5.75 you just got 1.196.....that is in no way a 19% so that can't be where you got it from. Where is this 19%?
Actually, it's not. If we consider a level 1 fighter vs an AC 12 target (longsword, dueling style)
Str 15: 65% chance to hit, 1d8+4 damage, 5% to crit for +1d8, expected damage 5.75
Str 16: 70% chance to hit, 1d8+5 damage, 5% to crit for +1d8, expected damage 6.875
6.875/5.75 = 1.196
So, 5% is actually 19%. Now, lets look at spellcasters. Assume target has a +0 save
Int 15: save DC 12; target saves 45% of the time. A save negates effect has a 55% chance to apply, a save ends effect lasts an average of 1.22 rounds.
Int 16: save DC 13; target saves 40% of the time. A save negates effect has a 60% chance to apply (+9% to expected effect), a save ends effect lasts an average of 1.5 rounds (+22.7% to expected duration).
No, that 5% is a 5%, where are you getting this mythical "19%"? When you divided 6.875 by 5.75 you just got 1.196.....that is in no way a 19% so that can't be where you got it from. Where is this 19%?
He's talking about outcomes, I was talking about rolls.
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No, that 5% is a 5%, where are you getting this mythical "19%"? When you divided 6.875 by 5.75 you just got 1.196.....that is in no way a 19% so that can't be where you got it from. Where is this 19%?
So no, I don't accept "that's not good, but it's unavoidable" because I don't think you should, either.
Fair enough, but then what do we put in the books and what do we take out? Is it bad or weird to decide that yes, you think something is silly but no, you don't say that because people deserve more empathy than that but yes, you think that whatever it is you feel others were silly about can have a place in the books? I'm not saying don't try to do better. I'm saying we have different ideas about it. Being OK with racial ASIs doesn't mean being OK with any which way they might be presented. It also doesn't mean being OK with people who dislike them feeling bad about them being in the books. It means being OK with them, and wanting them included in a way that doesn't hurt anyone. And maybe that's not possible, and we can talk about that. But I don't think they should just be tossed out as if they're an absolute evil.
I feel that these decisions are largely not mine to make. My prerogative is to share feedback about my opinion as a customer and a fan. It is also to realize that my criticism should be aimed at helping the creators make a better product for *everyone* which is a tall and complicated order.
I think the developers have stated their goal in changing to floating ASI's and it's not because static ASI's are evil, it's because they want to have race put less emphasis on class choice.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I hate it. Why? Well it is simple in that it makes all races seem to me to be humans dressing up in costumes and having some shared super powers based on costume chosen. To me having meaningful races that have differences rules wise and not text wise makes my game experience better.
Now I can understand that D&D 5e is a simple system and that requires you to do things a specific way and that it prevents you from doing other things (simplicity of 5e to me is both a good and bad things just as a complex system that allows more things is also a good and bad thing).
I hate it. Why? Well it is simple in that it makes all races seem to me to be humans dressing up in costumes and having some shared super powers based on costume chosen. To me having meaningful races that have differences rules wise and not text wise makes my game experience better.
With due respect, you probably should have read some of the above posts then. It has been addressed several time in this thread (at least twice by me) that even without static racial bonuses, there are still tons of mechanical features races get that set them apart from "humans dressing up in costumes and having some shared super powers" There are some shared racial features for sure (darkvision and certain damage resistances) but there are also tons that are not as widespread and that will make a mechanical difference between one race or another.
here is one of my earlier comments (#72 in the thread) and I also recommend looking at comment #78 that expands upon it further, providing a long list of racial features. Even if there are some races that have overlap with these abilities, there are no two races that get the exact same "loadout" as far as I know
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So somewhat relevant to the thread here's a link to a poll I took on reddit asking how people felt about the changes made post tashas and out of 556, 253 didn't care one way or the other, 145 were happy with them, and 158 were not happy with the changes. Also when it comes to polling I feel like reddit is the better option just because you can actually see how many people voted while here on beyond we just get a percentage.
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If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
So somewhat relevant to the thread here's a link to a poll I took on reddit asking how people felt about the changes made post tashas and out of 556, 253 didn't care one way or the other, 145 were happy with them, and 158 were not happy with the changes. Also when it comes to polling I feel like reddit is the better option just because you can actually see how many people voted while here on beyond we just get a percentage.
You can see how many people voted here, just mouse over the bars.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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What gets me is that you think this is a debate. It isn't. It's reality. Whether you're willing to accept it is another story entirely.
Of course not. That's why I said I understand how you feel about it. But any language can be painful to anyone for any reason. For 5E, the language is clean enough in my opinion. Note that I say this about 5E and not D&D in general, that I say it's clean enough rather than clean period, and that it's obviously my opinion.
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Mechanics play in as well....
For example a Halfling Goliath would be small size but get powerful build? This equates to a zero add as small characters would move to medium which infers no added benefit.
Would likely be better for the player to get Stones Endurance instead.
Also for a Goliath Halfling (who stands at 5 ft tall instead of 8ft) and are medium in size hiding behind a creature one size larger (Large) may not come up enough to be worth it for the player so I would opt for either the Lucky feature or the Brave feature after working with the player.
So you understand how certain portrayals are painful to not just me, but a lot of people, and you're just like, "Yeah, I'm fine with that?" It's awfully easy to say something is fine when you're not getting the sharp end of the stick.
"Any language can be painful to anyone for any reason" sounds awfully like you don't think our reasons for feeling pain are actually good or reasonable reasons, or was there another conclusion I was supposed to make from this sentence?
Through this conversation I've just been saying "I like this change" it's just kind of a relief of a change. Is my relief what ... unnecessary? Is it something else you disagree with?
You don't like the changes? Fine. I have never had any problem with anyone saying that, but this ... this dismissive attitude of other people's feelings? Unkind. And not a good look.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm not particularly happy with some of the cosmology and religion tropes presented in the game. I'm sure other people have problems with other things. I recall entire threads about player agency and spells potentially taking that away not sitting well with some. There was certainly a lot to do about the language in Van Richten's. I wasn't commenting on the reasons, and certainly not on whether they're good reasons or not. I said the books are filled with things some people may not like for all sorts of reasons. That's not a good thing, but it's to an extent an unavoidable thing. You draw the line to where that extent goes in a different place than I do, and that's valid.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Worth noting, Pang: "Everything is offensive to someone" is a very common refrain by 'based/unwoke' sorts, who almost always follow the line up with a variation on "so I choose not to care who I offend or how because they'll find an excuse anyways". I know that's not how you meant it, but the very idea of 'everything is offensive to someone', while technically true, is something of a poisoned well with a lot of folks on Ophidimancer's side of the fence. It's so often used as a means to dismiss offense and pain that it's hard for us to see it as anything else, honestly. So...fair caution, I suppose.
Please do not contact or message me.
I know, and that honestly doesn't sit well with me. I just can't very well argue that I have my reasons but I won't speak of them because they've been perverted by others too many times.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No, go ahead and speak your reasoning, but be aware that you will be called out on their merits.
I didn't need you to validate me drawing a line, because drawing a line for myself isn't exactly what I was doing, and especially not drawing a line just for myself and leaving everyone else to hang.
Media is imperfect, we're all still learning how to interact with each other, how not to hurt one another, how to to uplift and empower each other as human beings. Yes we all have different ideas and perspectives and won't agree on things, but it's a work in progress. The goal is not perfection, the goal is constant improvement. As we learn more about the human condition, we get better at dealing with it. Everyone drawing their own line about the minimum level of hurt they will put up with in order to participate in society may be what it looks like people are doing but that's just not good enough!
I'm constantly learning how things that I think are normal and acceptable can make other people feel uncomfortable and I make efforts to change my behavior and my speech. Are these things sometimes annoying or frustrating to me? Yes. Are my efforts sometimes in vain? Yes. But that doesn't stop me from continually trying to make myself a better person for the people around me.
Sometimes I find myself at the limits of my sympathy and internally think, "Well that's just silly" but I would never say it out loud because even if I have run out of sympathy, I know that the people around me deserve more of it.
So no, I don't accept "that's not good, but it's unavoidable" because I don't think you should, either.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Fair enough, but then what do we put in the books and what do we take out? Is it bad or weird to decide that yes, you think something is silly but no, you don't say that because people deserve more empathy than that but yes, you think that whatever it is you feel others were silly about can have a place in the books? I'm not saying don't try to do better. I'm saying we have different ideas about it. Being OK with racial ASIs doesn't mean being OK with any which way they might be presented. It also doesn't mean being OK with people who dislike them feeling bad about them being in the books. It means being OK with them, and wanting them included in a way that doesn't hurt anyone. And maybe that's not possible, and we can talk about that. But I don't think they should just be tossed out as if they're an absolute evil.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No, that 5% is a 5%, where are you getting this mythical "19%"? When you divided 6.875 by 5.75 you just got 1.196.....that is in no way a 19% so that can't be where you got it from. Where is this 19%?
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU









He's talking about outcomes, I was talking about rolls.
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1.196 is 119.6%, or +19%....
I feel that these decisions are largely not mine to make. My prerogative is to share feedback about my opinion as a customer and a fan. It is also to realize that my criticism should be aimed at helping the creators make a better product for *everyone* which is a tall and complicated order.
I think the developers have stated their goal in changing to floating ASI's and it's not because static ASI's are evil, it's because they want to have race put less emphasis on class choice.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Sorry did not read all the above posts:
I hate it. Why? Well it is simple in that it makes all races seem to me to be humans dressing up in costumes and having some shared super powers based on costume chosen. To me having meaningful races that have differences rules wise and not text wise makes my game experience better.
Now I can understand that D&D 5e is a simple system and that requires you to do things a specific way and that it prevents you from doing other things (simplicity of 5e to me is both a good and bad things just as a complex system that allows more things is also a good and bad thing).
MDC
With due respect, you probably should have read some of the above posts then. It has been addressed several time in this thread (at least twice by me) that even without static racial bonuses, there are still tons of mechanical features races get that set them apart from "humans dressing up in costumes and having some shared super powers" There are some shared racial features for sure (darkvision and certain damage resistances) but there are also tons that are not as widespread and that will make a mechanical difference between one race or another.
here is one of my earlier comments (#72 in the thread) and I also recommend looking at comment #78 that expands upon it further, providing a long list of racial features. Even if there are some races that have overlap with these abilities, there are no two races that get the exact same "loadout" as far as I know
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Let's see which one of these is more mechanically distinct.
+2 Dex/+1 Cha
-OR-
Lucky
When you roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.
Brave
You have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.
Halfling Nimbleness
You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Naturally Stealthy
You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I'm not supposed to post memes, so I'll just ask: why not both?
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I am not opposed to both, but to act like those numbers are what makes the races distinct and without them they are all the same is silly at best.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So somewhat relevant to the thread here's a link to a poll I took on reddit asking how people felt about the changes made post tashas and out of 556, 253 didn't care one way or the other, 145 were happy with them, and 158 were not happy with the changes. Also when it comes to polling I feel like reddit is the better option just because you can actually see how many people voted while here on beyond we just get a percentage.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
You can see how many people voted here, just mouse over the bars.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!