Dungeons & Dragons has a history of evolving to meet the needs of our players and foster an inviting space for everyone.
With that in mind, we understand "race" is a problematic term that has had prejudiced links between real world people and the fantasy peoples of D&D worlds. The usage of the term across D&D and other popular IP has evolved over time. Now it’s time for the next evolution.
Also, please take this seriously, even if you are not affected by it, there are other people that are affected by it, including me. Also the official stance of the mods is don't invalidate this or say it is a nonissue, because it officially is.
This is a reminder to everyone who makes the choice to participate in these discussions surrounding the One D&D changes to game language. You do so under the explicit assumption you will participate by the site rules.
I want to emphasize something; these changes are being made because people who play the game are experiencing harm at the language the game uses and have communicated this to Wizards of the Coast, who are taking action to continue to progress the game forwards to be as inclusive as it can be. The moderation team will not entertain the dismissal, invalidation, or margination of members of the community who have raised these valid concerns just because "I don't see a problem with the word". Privilege is a wonderful thing.
If you want to participate in this discussion without receiving warnings, infraction points, or bans, you will do so civilly, respectfully, and with kindness.
No problem, communication is tough. All I'm trying to do is educate people about a different perspective, there's no attack in that. I see and hear a lot of ignorance in regards to this topic and the only way to fix that is to educate.
See, I don't see it as 'educating me to have a different perspective'. To me that is called brainwashing, or forcing others to comply to their world view by controlling the narrative via language control, propaganda etc. It's what the Nazi's did and what certain other countries with Marxist backgrounds still do.
I really don't get where you're coming up with this, but the perspective I'm talking about is literally mine, I'm talking about my own personal experiences with the term "race" and how it has affected me. Talking about your own personal experiences is basically the furthest thing from propaganda.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Dungeons & Dragons has a history of evolving to meet the needs of our players and foster an inviting space for everyone.
With that in mind, we understand "race" is a problematic term that has had prejudiced links between real world people and the fantasy peoples of D&D worlds. The usage of the term across D&D and other popular IP has evolved over time. Now it’s time for the next evolution.
Also, please take this seriously, even if you are not affected by it, there are other people that are affected by it, including me. Also the official stance of the mods is don't invalidate this or say it is a nonissue, because it officially is.
This is a reminder to everyone who makes the choice to participate in these discussions surrounding the One D&D changes to game language. You do so under the explicit assumption you will participate by the site rules.
I want to emphasize something; these changes are being made because people who play the game are experiencing harm at the language the game uses and have communicated this to Wizards of the Coast, who are taking action to continue to progress the game forwards to be as inclusive as it can be. The moderation team will not entertain the dismissal, invalidation, or margination of members of the community who have raised these valid concerns just because "I don't see a problem with the word". Privilege is a wonderful thing.
If you want to participate in this discussion without receiving warnings, infraction points, or bans, you will do so civilly, respectfully, and with kindness.
No problem, communication is tough. All I'm trying to do is educate people about a different perspective, there's no attack in that. I see and hear a lot of ignorance in regards to this topic and the only way to fix that is to educate.
See, I don't see it as 'educating me to have a different perspective'. To me that is called brainwashing, or forcing others to comply to their world view by controlling the narrative via language control, propaganda etc. It's what the Nazi's did and what certain other countries with Marxist backgrounds still do.
Talking about your own personal experiences is basically the furthest thing from propaganda.
It is an attempt to control language and thus the narrative, one I don't agree with.
Like 99.9% of people that play DnD, we don't use words to upset people in the real world and I don't like being told how I can use English or how I should think.
It is an attempt to control language and thus the narrative, one I don't agree with.
Like 99.9% of people that play DnD, we don't use words to upset people in the real world and I don't like being told how I can use English or how I should think.
You have openly stated that you have not read the rest of the thread and have no desire to do so, as well as stating that you do not know why the change is being made. You are speaking from a place of deliberately chosen intentional ignorance and making absolutely horrible accusations and allegations against anyone who supports the change. Allegations of Nazism, brainwashing, and pushing a political agenda.
Why do you think anyone here should care about your concerns, when you have so brazenly declared yourself indifferent to anyone else's concerns?
There is a difference between persuasion and coercion. No one is attempting to coerce you. You can use whatever language you wish, and think whatever you desire to think. If you can find a table where your language and your views are acceptable, you are welcome to play as you wish. Wizards is equally free to use whatever language it wishes, for whichever reason it desires to do so. The company has made the decision to use less charged terminology where it can do so. By your own stated logic, what standing do you have to try and control the narrative and force the company to use words and language it does not desire to use?
Like 99.9% of people that play DnD, we don't use words to upset people in the real world
Not intending on hurting people doesn't mean you're free from the consequences of actually hurting people. You ... are aware that hurt can be caused unintentionally, right?
and I don't like being told how I can use English or how I should think.
Well. That is very honest, thank you. I mean, when someone informs you that you accidentally stepped on their foot, the correct response isn't to shout, "You can't tell me what to do!" but I can appreciate someone being open about their reasons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Sorry, I didn't really mean attack. What I really meant is that you can't try to "stand -up" to anyone who may or may not understand a concept.
My ability to express myself has been a bit rough lately, sorry.
No problem, communication is tough. All I'm trying to do is educate people about a different perspective, there's no attack in that. I see and hear a lot of ignorance in regards to this topic and the only way to fix that is to educate.
See, I don't see it as 'educating me to have a different perspective'. To me that is called brainwashing, or forcing others to comply to their world view by controlling the narrative via language control, propaganda etc. It's what the Nazi's did and what certain other countries with Marxist backgrounds still do.
Dude, are you trolling? Or purposely trying to get the thread locked?
At NO point did Ophidimancer do anything even close to resembling "brain-washing". At no point did they say "This is my opinion on the topic and it is the only one that is correct and if you don't agree then you're part of the problem. All other opinions are wrong!". Expressing a perspective, especially when some have come in to the topic completely unaware of why this is a topic in the first place, isn't brain-washing or forcing others to comply with anything.
I am sure Gygax is laughing in his grave, whilst at the same time crying over the insanity.
Gary Gygax is the reason this thread exists. Gygax was an outspoken racist. He made comments about how some folks were biologically better than others based on their race or biological sex. He quoted military commanders ordering the genocide of innocent women and children. He infected the game with his racist stereotypes of other cultures and depicted those cultures as sub-human animals.
Wizards is moving beyond the word Race not just because the word has become charged in modern parlance - it is because the word has always been charged and political as used in D&D. This change is about removing politics - specifically the racist politics of Gygax - from the game. It is not about adding modern politics to it, despite what all the naysayers are trying to frame the conversation as.
I quite hope he is crying - I know his son Ernest (of Tenser fame), who himself is an outspoken racist (Wizards is actually suing Ernest in part due to Ernest’s racism) is crying about Wizards removing his and his father’s racism from D&D. I can hardly think of a better metric for showing the game is moving in the right direction than Gary and Ernest’s displeasure.
I don't see a problem with the term 'race' at all. It's worked since the 70's, there is no compelling reason to change it, IMO. I'm not interested in protecting other people's feelings if they get offended. If it must be changed, species is as good a term as any.
theres an entire 22 pages of why it should be changed, people are actively being hurt by that word, and as stated above "worked since the 70s" doesnt work, when its been an issue that entire time, and was put there by a racist, and is just being brought to better light
I don't see a problem with the term 'race' at all. It's worked since the 70's, there is no compelling reason to change it, IMO. I'm not interested in protecting other people's feelings if they get offended. If it must be changed, species is as good a term as any.
While it may very well true you do not see a problem, the problems with the term race within D&D have existed since the 70s and are quite well documented - including on this thread. One specific problem - that Race as used in D&D has been a term promulgating Gygax’s bad-even-by-70s-standards racism - was addressed in the post above yours.
But, ultimately the “in my opinion” you present is irrelevant - this is Wizards’ choice and, as the authors, they are free to do what they will with their property, free from censorship by those who would force them to change their decisions. Wizards sees compelling reasons to change the term; Wizards sees reasons that they date back decades and want to make amends for. Combined with their understanding that not being interested in protecting others’ feelings is no way to go through life - whether that is their exhibiting the barest level of empathy or just making the smart business choice to not alienate customers could be debated - and there is a clear reason why the owner and controller of the property would want to exert change on their property.
To me, we are all part of the human race. Elves are a race. Dwarves are a race, etc.
Within those races are, perhaps, distinct species with physiological differences.
Also within races are distinct cultures, and within those cultures are sub-cultures.
In the real world I have always felt that describing other humans as a separate race is far too divisive. Yes, there are some physiological differences but they are minor.
In DnD however, I see Dragonkin as a separate race to that of Human.
If you really must change the word race in an effort to combat what some see as oppressive language then can we not invent our own word that has no real-world meaning or basis on anything that can be even vaguely perceived to have other meanings? Maybe just use 'Beings', e.g. Human Beings. Dwarven Beings. I dunno, maybe cabbages would work? Human Cabbages.
To me, we are all part of the human race. Elves are a race. Dwarves are a race, etc.
Within those races are, perhaps, distinct species with physiological differences.
Also within races are distinct cultures, and within those cultures are sub-cultures.
In the real world I have always felt that describing other humans as a separate race is far too divisive. Yes, there are some physiological differences but they are minor.
In DnD however, I see Dragonkin as a separate race to that of Human.
If you really must change the word race in an effort to combat what some see as oppressive language then can we not invent our own word that has no real-world meaning or basis on anything that can be even vaguely perceived to have other meanings? Maybe just use 'Beings', e.g. Human Beings. Dwarven Beings. I dunno, maybe cabbages would work? Human Cabbages.
There are over 20 pages of conversation for you to read, if you so care to. Doing so may grant you insight into the topics your questions concern.
To me, we are all part of the human race. Elves are a race. Dwarves are a race, etc.
Within those races are, perhaps, distinct species with physiological differences.
Also within races are distinct cultures, and within those cultures are sub-cultures.
In the real world I have always felt that describing other humans as a separate race is far too divisive. Yes, there are some physiological differences but they are minor.
In DnD however, I see Dragonkin as a separate race to that of Human.
If you really must change the word race in an effort to combat what some see as oppressive language then can we not invent our own word that has no real-world meaning or basis on anything that can be even vaguely perceived to have other meanings? Maybe just use 'Beings', e.g. Human Beings. Dwarven Beings. I dunno, maybe cabbages would work? Human Cabbages.
There are over 20 pages of conversation for you to read, if you so care to. Doing so may grant you insight into the topics your questions concern.
I've read a load of it and though I don't support the shift toward controlling language I will tolerate it. I've posed it as a question but perhaps I should rephrase it to throwing my hat in with supporting making up a word to define 'race'.
To me, we are all part of the human race. Elves are a race. Dwarves are a race, etc.
Within those races are, perhaps, distinct species with physiological differences.
Also within races are distinct cultures, and within those cultures are sub-cultures.
In the real world I have always felt that describing other humans as a separate race is far too divisive. Yes, there are some physiological differences but they are minor.
In DnD however, I see Dragonkin as a separate race to that of Human.
If you really must change the word race in an effort to combat what some see as oppressive language then can we not invent our own word that has no real-world meaning or basis on anything that can be even vaguely perceived to have other meanings? Maybe just use 'Beings', e.g. Human Beings. Dwarven Beings. I dunno, maybe cabbages would work? Human Cabbages.
There are over 20 pages of conversation for you to read, if you so care to. Doing so may grant you insight into the topics your questions concern.
I've read a load of it and though I don't support the shift toward controlling language I will tolerate it. I've posed it as a question but perhaps I should rephrase it to throwing my hat in with supporting making up a word to define 'race'.
The only ones on this thread trying to “control language” are those who are telling Wizards not to move away from the word race. Wizards is allowed to do whatever they want with their intellectual property - when they make a change, that is not them “controlling” anything, that is them excessing their property rights and free speech rights. It is the folks telling a private and independent entity “you cannot do what you want to do with your own property” that are the ones trying to control someone else’s language.
I linked the official explanation three posts before yours, but here it is again:
I really don't get where you're coming up with this, but the perspective I'm talking about is literally mine, I'm talking about my own personal experiences with the term "race" and how it has affected me. Talking about your own personal experiences is basically the furthest thing from propaganda.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It is an attempt to control language and thus the narrative, one I don't agree with.
Like 99.9% of people that play DnD, we don't use words to upset people in the real world and I don't like being told how I can use English or how I should think.
You have openly stated that you have not read the rest of the thread and have no desire to do so, as well as stating that you do not know why the change is being made. You are speaking from a place of deliberately chosen intentional ignorance and making absolutely horrible accusations and allegations against anyone who supports the change. Allegations of Nazism, brainwashing, and pushing a political agenda.
Why do you think anyone here should care about your concerns, when you have so brazenly declared yourself indifferent to anyone else's concerns?
There is a difference between persuasion and coercion. No one is attempting to coerce you. You can use whatever language you wish, and think whatever you desire to think. If you can find a table where your language and your views are acceptable, you are welcome to play as you wish. Wizards is equally free to use whatever language it wishes, for whichever reason it desires to do so. The company has made the decision to use less charged terminology where it can do so. By your own stated logic, what standing do you have to try and control the narrative and force the company to use words and language it does not desire to use?
Please do not contact or message me.
This thread is remarkable troll bait. I'd suggest closing it but there'd just be a new thread.
Not intending on hurting people doesn't mean you're free from the consequences of actually hurting people. You ... are aware that hurt can be caused unintentionally, right?
Well. That is very honest, thank you. I mean, when someone informs you that you accidentally stepped on their foot, the correct response isn't to shout, "You can't tell me what to do!" but I can appreciate someone being open about their reasons.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Dude, are you trolling? Or purposely trying to get the thread locked?
At NO point did Ophidimancer do anything even close to resembling "brain-washing". At no point did they say "This is my opinion on the topic and it is the only one that is correct and if you don't agree then you're part of the problem. All other opinions are wrong!". Expressing a perspective, especially when some have come in to the topic completely unaware of why this is a topic in the first place, isn't brain-washing or forcing others to comply with anything.
Like seriously...WTF?
Gary Gygax is the reason this thread exists. Gygax was an outspoken racist. He made comments about how some folks were biologically better than others based on their race or biological sex. He quoted military commanders ordering the genocide of innocent women and children. He infected the game with his racist stereotypes of other cultures and depicted those cultures as sub-human animals.
Wizards is moving beyond the word Race not just because the word has become charged in modern parlance - it is because the word has always been charged and political as used in D&D. This change is about removing politics - specifically the racist politics of Gygax - from the game. It is not about adding modern politics to it, despite what all the naysayers are trying to frame the conversation as.
I quite hope he is crying - I know his son Ernest (of Tenser fame), who himself is an outspoken racist (Wizards is actually suing Ernest in part due to Ernest’s racism) is crying about Wizards removing his and his father’s racism from D&D. I can hardly think of a better metric for showing the game is moving in the right direction than Gary and Ernest’s displeasure.
theres an entire 22 pages of why it should be changed, people are actively being hurt by that word, and as stated above "worked since the 70s" doesnt work, when its been an issue that entire time, and was put there by a racist, and is just being brought to better light
While it may very well true you do not see a problem, the problems with the term race within D&D have existed since the 70s and are quite well documented - including on this thread. One specific problem - that Race as used in D&D has been a term promulgating Gygax’s bad-even-by-70s-standards racism - was addressed in the post above yours.
But, ultimately the “in my opinion” you present is irrelevant - this is Wizards’ choice and, as the authors, they are free to do what they will with their property, free from censorship by those who would force them to change their decisions. Wizards sees compelling reasons to change the term; Wizards sees reasons that they date back decades and want to make amends for. Combined with their understanding that not being interested in protecting others’ feelings is no way to go through life - whether that is their exhibiting the barest level of empathy or just making the smart business choice to not alienate customers could be debated - and there is a clear reason why the owner and controller of the property would want to exert change on their property.
Revisiting the latest UA, what about the term "Life-form"?
Nah. Skip.
Just try replacing the term Species with Life-form and see how it feels?
No harm, no foul in at least trying is there?
No harm in trying it. I'm just personally giving it a strong pass.
This would make my inevitable Sonic The Hedgehog campaign very immersive
"I AM THE ULTIMATE LIFE FORM" - Every character
To me, we are all part of the human race. Elves are a race. Dwarves are a race, etc.
Within those races are, perhaps, distinct species with physiological differences.
Also within races are distinct cultures, and within those cultures are sub-cultures.
In the real world I have always felt that describing other humans as a separate race is far too divisive. Yes, there are some physiological differences but they are minor.
In DnD however, I see Dragonkin as a separate race to that of Human.
If you really must change the word race in an effort to combat what some see as oppressive language then can we not invent our own word that has no real-world meaning or basis on anything that can be even vaguely perceived to have other meanings? Maybe just use 'Beings', e.g. Human Beings. Dwarven Beings. I dunno, maybe cabbages would work? Human Cabbages.
Was this supposed to be a joke? Because species is much better than "Cabbages."
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.There are over 20 pages of conversation for you to read, if you so care to. Doing so may grant you insight into the topics your questions concern.
[REDACTED]
I've read a load of it and though I don't support the shift toward controlling language I will tolerate it. I've posed it as a question but perhaps I should rephrase it to throwing my hat in with supporting making up a word to define 'race'.
The only ones on this thread trying to “control language” are those who are telling Wizards not to move away from the word race. Wizards is allowed to do whatever they want with their intellectual property - when they make a change, that is not them “controlling” anything, that is them excessing their property rights and free speech rights. It is the folks telling a private and independent entity “you cannot do what you want to do with your own property” that are the ones trying to control someone else’s language.
That's subjective.