Honestly, I think what will happen is that people just won't sign it and just ignore WotC and distribute under OGL 1.0
We'll see on Friday. Ignoring WotC and publishing under OGL 1.0a for the future will be lawsuit bait because I guarantee if nothing else that WotC will try to enforce any attempt they make at deauthorizing it.
I do not think you can kill off Role Playing games they can kill their brand and the online gaming this site currently has control over. But for RPG it will continue under other brand names. Personally, I would love to see old school paper dungeon parties back in style where we gather over a table and play out an adventure.
This might be the push we need to go back to the roots of the game and play it the way Gary Gygax intended it to be played.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
Honestly, I think what will happen is that people just won't sign it and just ignore WotC and distribute under OGL 1.0
We'll see on Friday. Ignoring WotC and publishing under OGL 1.0a for the future will be lawsuit bait because I guarantee if nothing else that WotC will try to enforce any attempt they make at deauthorizing it.
Perhaps but that line of thinking assumes that WotC is in the right which I do not believe they are. They cannot revoke the OGL just because they want to, it was stated multiple times by themselves publicly that the OGL 1.0 is a permanent thing and the originators of OGL 1.0 confirmed as such that it was intended that way when it was written.
Honestly, I think what will happen is that people just won't sign it and just ignore WotC and distribute under OGL 1.0
We'll see on Friday. Ignoring WotC and publishing under OGL 1.0a for the future will be lawsuit bait because I guarantee if nothing else that WotC will try to enforce any attempt they make at deauthorizing it.
Perhaps but that line of thinking assumes that WotC is in the right which I do not believe they are. They cannot revoke the OGL just because they want to, it was stated multiple times by themselves publicly that the OGL 1.0 is a permanent thing and the originators of OGL 1.0 confirmed as such that it was intended that way when it was written.
That's why I said attempt. I don't think their measure for success is "Can we do this legally" I think the measure is "Will anyone spend enough money in court to stop us".
While I'm not ready to claim victory just yet, I do think the community is winning. Wizards of the Coast has finally let someone who supports the community make the last statement (instead of the idiot MBA and lawyers who came up got us to this point). The statement was straight forward, used clear language, and was apologetic.
I appreciate what the community has done to bring Wizards to heel, and I appreciate the new tone Wizards now uses. I am not canceling my subscription yet, but that is always an option. I see no reason at the moment to burn Wizards to the ground. I hope this new tone continues, and I look forward to me next session.
WOTC presented some content creators with a offensive OGL, that would hurt the content creators and deprive the community of those creative efforts.
The community rallied behind the content creators to show WOTC that we are protective over them.
WOTC promised to change course.
Immediately sensing weakness, the community doubled down on their efforts. Continued to unsub from D&DBeyond, promised to boycott the D&D movie, swore off all D&D products going forward. Not just risking the livihoods of the content creators, but also of innocent WOTC employees.
What are we angry about again? Hurting the content creators? Being deprived of future 3rd party releases for D&D? We're the ones doing that now. Not just that, but jeopardizing the careers of folks whose only crime is working for official D&D, which until last month we all loved....
I get the anger, but it's gone too far. Take a breather. Wait to see what WOTC's next OFFICIAL move is, not anonymous rumors. Let them show us with their actions if we need to continue the pressure.
So anyways . . .
I'm taking a look at PF2E, and it looks pretty promising. Any other systems people are finding ground on?
"it was stated multiple times by themselves publicly that the OGL 1.0 is a permanent thing and the originators of OGL 1.0 confirmed as such that it was intended that way when it was written."
There is a reason they need players/creators to sign the new agreement. If you agree to the new terms and sign the new agreement you have no legal rights to the old agreement.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
WOTC needs to stop thinking we are idiots. I know how to read PR speak. It means nothing until you back up what you are saying. I don't see a compromise for me here. I am not going to start buying WOTC again until they change directions and start thinking about what we want.
Also as a DM I am taking my groups with me (They already agreed to play what ever system I want). By the way DMs just saying you have a lot of power here. I would also start planning until at least the end of the year before even thinking of going back. Let WOTC gets the IDEA that empty promises of PR speak aren't going to help them.
Nothing has changed yet. PR means nothing until you see what releases. Battle is far from over. I would buckle down and get ready.
You see they have lost creditability, you can't trust their words now.
Also I doubt this a single decision thing. They likely have tons of plans that go in this same direction. Stuff like this takes companies time to actual change. I think it could be done in 3months, once they actual see that they made a mistake. But you are fighting new leadership and doesn't understand the TTRPG community. I don't think this direction will change until that leadership is removed.
I have seen this same thing happen in a lot of gaming companies (Blizzard, EA, Bio Ware, ETC.) They latch onto bad ideas and start turning out worse and worse products.
This mentality sees you as a consumer not a customer. "You buy what we give you".
We are in luck tho as you don't even really have to stop playing 5E. There is tons of stuff out there for you. Just cancel DND Beyond and stop buy wotc until they actual change directions.
I plan to support the alternatives that are doing good things for TTRPGs.
Also any criticism of WOTC I wouldn't put in their "Survey" , Keep it open in social media forums and an other planforms you use. It is likely they will never read (Survey) that information or take it seriously. Best to keep it in the open where they don't want it.
There's this stellar lack of something to actually be mad about atm, yet, these threads and posts keep propping up as if there was a new OGL released or any of the more brain-dead rumors have been confirmed.
It's almost like the goal isn't to protect third parties or the TTRPG community at all, but instead destroy WOTC, or at least punish them for other transgressions...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Gygax was a great DM but was not good at running a business. He created a climate at TSR that was self destructive.
Hmmm ... seems we have been here before? The owners of the D&D brand destroying the brand and the community that wants to play, lol.
D&D will come and D&D will go - in various forms and permutations with various business models and Executives.
Maybe it's a cyclical thing where very 20 years the planets align and a dark CEO tries their best to ruin the game for everyone and there is a dark age for a while, then someone else brings the brand back.
We are headed into another one of those cycles - the third one as I count it. The sooner their sales dry up, the sooner we can see the other side of the cycle.
The damage is done. The company has shown that they cannot be relied on for stability in the eyes of third party publishers, and with the community. There is an old saying, when someone shows you who they truly are, believe them the first time.
Statements are not legally binding, and I trust nothing outside of a finalized legal document. Even in that case, I am done.
Wizards of the Coast: We're sorry for not giving you more frequent updates and addressing your concerns earlier. We are trying to be more transparent and will be giving you more information a direct way of giving feedback on proposed Open Game License changes in future. In the meantime, here is some information on the situation that you might like.
Some Fans: !@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*
It's almost as if Wizards of the Coast is hesitant to release official statements on controversial matters such as this for a reason...
Gygax was a great DM but was nt good at running a business. He created a climate at TSR that was self destructive.
Hmmm ... seems we have been here before? The owners of the D&D brand destroying the brand and the community that wants to play, lol.
D&D will come and D&D will go - in various forms and permutations with various business models and Executives.
Maybe it's a cyclical thing where very 20 years the planets align and a dark CEO tries their best to ruin the game for everyone and there is a dark age for a while, then someone else brings the brand back.
We are headed into another one of those cycles - the third one as I count it. The sooner their sales dry up, the sooner we can see the other side of the cycle.
There are just a few differences such as a new age of information exchange. 20 years ago, you needed to print books now any one can make content. 20 years ago, there was an extremely limited market of players today there is a whole world connected to the world wide web. D&D is a brand name true before it was the only game in town but not now. Anyone can make a RPG, make content, make rules. Some players have 4 decades of experience in RPG's. All of D&D's content is fan based content now so when those content makers go somewhere else with the newly crafted content then the newly formed brand of RPG will flourish. There is over 8 billion people out there some of those people are going to fill the gap and the Wizards brand is going to have to change with the times because they are not going to be the only game in town anymore.
This is the kick in the pants people needed to jump this ship and start crafting their own fleet's of ships.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
We tried doing several shady things behind your backs under cover of NDA and when these things went public we tried to ignore it and prohibited any discussion of it on our forums. For months we had been planning ways to charge everyone more money in exchange for a worse product and drive all competitors (who used to be collaborators) out of business or under our exploitive exclusive control. When we were found out and people started cancelling subscriptions, we issued a confrontational doubletalking PR statement with several outright lies in it. We are trying to pretend to be transparent because actually we don't know how to be honest - we only know how to spin reality and make a public pretense in order to gain more time and hope you all forget. Please just forget that we want to screw you over and have been caught red handed in lies several times. Our stock price might suffer, so please believe our lies and just calm down for a quarter or two so we can continue our plans to screw you over at a later date. Of course we are still not going to be transparent and will continue with lies and half truths even when we are caught out - but we will always double down and somehow turn it around that the customers are somehow inherently wrong to not want to be lied to and constantly screwed over. We still haven't publicly released our draft of any OGL or any truthful or honest explanations regarding it.
But hey - can you resubscribe? That'd be great if you did. Thanks, buddy
WOTC presented some content creators with a offensive OGL, that would hurt the content creators and deprive the community of those creative efforts.
The community rallied behind the content creators to show WOTC that we are protective over them.
WOTC promised to change course.
Immediately sensing weakness, the community doubled down on their efforts. Continued to unsub from D&DBeyond, promised to boycott the D&D movie, swore off all D&D products going forward. Not just risking the livihoods of the content creators, but also of innocent WOTC employees.
What are we angry about again? Hurting the content creators? Being deprived of future 3rd party releases for D&D? We're the ones doing that now. Not just that, but jeopardizing the careers of folks whose only crime is working for official D&D, which until last month we all loved....
I get the anger, but it's gone too far. Take a breather. Wait to see what WOTC's next OFFICIAL move is, not anonymous rumors. Let them show us with their actions if we need to continue the pressure.
You've already been deprived of 3P content for OneD&D. If you doubt that, just ask the people who would have been creating it...
WOTC presented some content creators with a offensive OGL, that would hurt the content creators and deprive the community of those creative efforts.
The community rallied behind the content creators to show WOTC that we are protective over them.
WOTC promised to change course.
Immediately sensing weakness, the community doubled down on their efforts. Continued to unsub from D&DBeyond, promised to boycott the D&D movie, swore off all D&D products going forward. Not just risking the livihoods of the content creators, but also of innocent WOTC employees.
What are we angry about again? Hurting the content creators? Being deprived of future 3rd party releases for D&D? We're the ones doing that now. Not just that, but jeopardizing the careers of folks whose only crime is working for official D&D, which until last month we all loved....
I get the anger, but it's gone too far. Take a breather. Wait to see what WOTC's next OFFICIAL move is, not anonymous rumors. Let them show us with their actions if we need to continue the pressure.
This is such a shill comment. The responses that they have provided are by the book PR responses that are over a week late. Hasbro has a history of brand mismanagement, and their recent investor calls have said they are turning their eye to this hobby. Credible leaks have forecast worse news in the immediate days to come, and from similar avenues that got us what we know about the OGL so far. Executives would like nothing more than for people to get quiet, and slowly resubscribe while they effectively change nothing; that is literally what they are trying to achieve. It is not on us to take a chill pill and get off Hasbro's back, it is there job to give us a reason to, because all we have gotten so far is "Soon".
So far, I've seen at least 5 different things that have been declared "The only thing people are pissed about." Folks need to get out of their own heads and realize different people are upset about different things. And what matters most to you might not matter to someone else near as much. I mean, you certainly get to make your own choice about what's most upsetting to you, but don't assume that it's a universal feeling.
And, just to extrapolate that out, there may come a time when other people are satisfied with the proposed changes, and you are still angry with them. So, I suggest people get used to that idea. No negotiation has ever made everyone completely happy. What you do then will, of course, be up to you. But maybe wait until we see something before getting so angry. Two days isn't a long time. Your blood pressure will thank you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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We'll see on Friday. Ignoring WotC and publishing under OGL 1.0a for the future will be lawsuit bait because I guarantee if nothing else that WotC will try to enforce any attempt they make at deauthorizing it.
I do not think you can kill off Role Playing games they can kill their brand and the online gaming this site currently has control over. But for RPG it will continue under other brand names. Personally, I would love to see old school paper dungeon parties back in style where we gather over a table and play out an adventure.
This might be the push we need to go back to the roots of the game and play it the way Gary Gygax intended it to be played.
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
Perhaps but that line of thinking assumes that WotC is in the right which I do not believe they are. They cannot revoke the OGL just because they want to, it was stated multiple times by themselves publicly that the OGL 1.0 is a permanent thing and the originators of OGL 1.0 confirmed as such that it was intended that way when it was written.
That's why I said attempt. I don't think their measure for success is "Can we do this legally" I think the measure is "Will anyone spend enough money in court to stop us".
While I'm not ready to claim victory just yet, I do think the community is winning. Wizards of the Coast has finally let someone who supports the community make the last statement (instead of the idiot MBA and lawyers who came up got us to this point). The statement was straight forward, used clear language, and was apologetic.
I appreciate what the community has done to bring Wizards to heel, and I appreciate the new tone Wizards now uses. I am not canceling my subscription yet, but that is always an option. I see no reason at the moment to burn Wizards to the ground. I hope this new tone continues, and I look forward to me next session.
So anyways . . .
I'm taking a look at PF2E, and it looks pretty promising. Any other systems people are finding ground on?
"it was stated multiple times by themselves publicly that the OGL 1.0 is a permanent thing and the originators of OGL 1.0 confirmed as such that it was intended that way when it was written."
There is a reason they need players/creators to sign the new agreement. If you agree to the new terms and sign the new agreement you have no legal rights to the old agreement.
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
WOTC needs to stop thinking we are idiots. I know how to read PR speak. It means nothing until you back up what you are saying. I don't see a compromise for me here. I am not going to start buying WOTC again until they change directions and start thinking about what we want.
Also as a DM I am taking my groups with me (They already agreed to play what ever system I want). By the way DMs just saying you have a lot of power here. I would also start planning until at least the end of the year before even thinking of going back. Let WOTC gets the IDEA that empty promises of PR speak aren't going to help them.
Nothing has changed yet. PR means nothing until you see what releases. Battle is far from over. I would buckle down and get ready.
You see they have lost creditability, you can't trust their words now.
Also I doubt this a single decision thing. They likely have tons of plans that go in this same direction. Stuff like this takes companies time to actual change. I think it could be done in 3months, once they actual see that they made a mistake. But you are fighting new leadership and doesn't understand the TTRPG community. I don't think this direction will change until that leadership is removed.
I have seen this same thing happen in a lot of gaming companies (Blizzard, EA, Bio Ware, ETC.) They latch onto bad ideas and start turning out worse and worse products.
This mentality sees you as a consumer not a customer. "You buy what we give you".
We are in luck tho as you don't even really have to stop playing 5E. There is tons of stuff out there for you. Just cancel DND Beyond and stop buy wotc until they actual change directions.
I plan to support the alternatives that are doing good things for TTRPGs.
Also any criticism of WOTC I wouldn't put in their "Survey" , Keep it open in social media forums and an other planforms you use. It is likely they will never read (Survey) that information or take it seriously. Best to keep it in the open where they don't want it.
I thought we were all winners?
Oh wait - that was just BS I guess. Now if Hasboro isn't winning, nobody can win.
lol
It's simple - D&D is a product. If they want to know what will sell to these customers, then they need to just listen for a while.
No company has ever burned down because they let customers voice their complaints two years before launching a new product.
It's almost like the goal isn't to protect third parties or the TTRPG community at all, but instead destroy WOTC, or at least punish them for other transgressions...
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Gygax was a great DM but was not good at running a business. He created a climate at TSR that was self destructive.
Hmmm ... seems we have been here before? The owners of the D&D brand destroying the brand and the community that wants to play, lol.
D&D will come and D&D will go - in various forms and permutations with various business models and Executives.
Maybe it's a cyclical thing where very 20 years the planets align and a dark CEO tries their best to ruin the game for everyone and there is a dark age for a while, then someone else brings the brand back.
We are headed into another one of those cycles - the third one as I count it. The sooner their sales dry up, the sooner we can see the other side of the cycle.
The damage is done. The company has shown that they cannot be relied on for stability in the eyes of third party publishers, and with the community. There is an old saying, when someone shows you who they truly are, believe them the first time.
Statements are not legally binding, and I trust nothing outside of a finalized legal document. Even in that case, I am done.
Wizards of the Coast: We're sorry for not giving you more frequent updates and addressing your concerns earlier. We are trying to be more transparent and will be giving you more information a direct way of giving feedback on proposed Open Game License changes in future. In the meantime, here is some information on the situation that you might like.
Some Fans: !@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*!@#$%^&*
It's almost as if Wizards of the Coast is hesitant to release official statements on controversial matters such as this for a reason...
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.There are just a few differences such as a new age of information exchange. 20 years ago, you needed to print books now any one can make content. 20 years ago, there was an extremely limited market of players today there is a whole world connected to the world wide web. D&D is a brand name true before it was the only game in town but not now. Anyone can make a RPG, make content, make rules. Some players have 4 decades of experience in RPG's. All of D&D's content is fan based content now so when those content makers go somewhere else with the newly crafted content then the newly formed brand of RPG will flourish. There is over 8 billion people out there some of those people are going to fill the gap and the Wizards brand is going to have to change with the times because they are not going to be the only game in town anymore.
This is the kick in the pants people needed to jump this ship and start crafting their own fleet's of ships.
And here I thought I was on my best behavior. BUT NO I got scolded and threatened with corner time. I guess we are not allowed to express our feelings or opinions on anything here. All hugs and kisses every body's special every one gets a ribbon that says 'Your a winner" Not here more then a week and I got naughty points twice. How many points do I get?
Let me fix that for you:
Wizards of the Coast:
We tried doing several shady things behind your backs under cover of NDA and when these things went public we tried to ignore it and prohibited any discussion of it on our forums. For months we had been planning ways to charge everyone more money in exchange for a worse product and drive all competitors (who used to be collaborators) out of business or under our exploitive exclusive control. When we were found out and people started cancelling subscriptions, we issued a confrontational doubletalking PR statement with several outright lies in it. We are trying to pretend to be transparent because actually we don't know how to be honest - we only know how to spin reality and make a public pretense in order to gain more time and hope you all forget. Please just forget that we want to screw you over and have been caught red handed in lies several times. Our stock price might suffer, so please believe our lies and just calm down for a quarter or two so we can continue our plans to screw you over at a later date. Of course we are still not going to be transparent and will continue with lies and half truths even when we are caught out - but we will always double down and somehow turn it around that the customers are somehow inherently wrong to not want to be lied to and constantly screwed over. We still haven't publicly released our draft of any OGL or any truthful or honest explanations regarding it.
But hey - can you resubscribe? That'd be great if you did. Thanks, buddy
You've already been deprived of 3P content for OneD&D. If you doubt that, just ask the people who would have been creating it...
No we don't. WotC did that for us...
This is such a shill comment. The responses that they have provided are by the book PR responses that are over a week late. Hasbro has a history of brand mismanagement, and their recent investor calls have said they are turning their eye to this hobby. Credible leaks have forecast worse news in the immediate days to come, and from similar avenues that got us what we know about the OGL so far. Executives would like nothing more than for people to get quiet, and slowly resubscribe while they effectively change nothing; that is literally what they are trying to achieve. It is not on us to take a chill pill and get off Hasbro's back, it is there job to give us a reason to, because all we have gotten so far is "Soon".
So far, I've seen at least 5 different things that have been declared "The only thing people are pissed about." Folks need to get out of their own heads and realize different people are upset about different things. And what matters most to you might not matter to someone else near as much. I mean, you certainly get to make your own choice about what's most upsetting to you, but don't assume that it's a universal feeling.
And, just to extrapolate that out, there may come a time when other people are satisfied with the proposed changes, and you are still angry with them. So, I suggest people get used to that idea. No negotiation has ever made everyone completely happy. What you do then will, of course, be up to you. But maybe wait until we see something before getting so angry. Two days isn't a long time. Your blood pressure will thank you.