Unarmed Strikes and Sneak Attack

Note that the coshing element isn’t supported by 5e to begin with- any melee attack can be declared nonlethal at the time HP hits 0, so as of the 2014 publication there was no practical value to a finesse blunt weapon. Yes, you could argue that missing out on the Sap mastery is an issue, but Rogues have the Poison Cunning Strike option which is about adjacent with Sap, and they’re not intended to play a lot with the masteries either.

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Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons.  Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack.  This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.

 I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option.  it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.

Sneak Attack represents precision strikes. You don't get the level of precision needed without a level of finesse.

 

Sneak attack is just more damage once per turn. Yes you can overly define it down to a super narrow concept, but that makes the game worse. They successfully made the game worse by defining things in over narrow ways. And sorry its never been a nerve strike. Its hitting them while they are distracted and getting the most out of that, you don't need a finesse weapon to do that. I think you can probably hit with a long sword with more precision than you can with a long bow at 600 feet. Or with the super precision smooth bore flint lock pistol. 

Look, you can complain all you want about it not being realistic, but it's built that way largely to set it up based on the fantasy trope of rogues being able to strike weak points better than anything else. Some of the game is going to be built into fantasy tropes even if it isn't optimal, and you just have to accept that it's going to happen.

The trope has nothing to do with finesse weapons its only the designers who are forcing that. If you look at shows/movies and read books where something like a sneak attack is done, it is either not a finesse weapon at all or its a dagger when we are talking melee. Right now it is overly narrow removing huge swaths of concepts because they want to force only their idea of a rogue onto you. I have to accept it because they wrote the rules. I don't have to accept it was a good idea, and it should be that way and you shouldn't either. Accepting a bad idea because they wrote it that way does not make it a good idea. 

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RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.

Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.

 Now that the thread has been bumped, I'd like to point out that the 2024 have changed this. Allowing unarmed strikes to sneak attack would be problematic now that monks can always make a bonus action unarmed attack. It would allow a rogue with a monk dip to sneak attack twice per round too consistently.

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RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.

Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.

 Now that the thread has been bumped, I'd like to point out that the 2024 have changed this. Allowing unarmed strikes to sneak attack would be problematic now that monks can always make a bonus action unarmed attack. It would allow a rogue with a monk dip to sneak attack twice per round too consistently.

 Rogue always been able to use Sneak Attack more than once per round. They're limited to use it once per turn regardless so they can't use it more than once on the same turn with their action and Bonus Action anyway.

Also using it as a Reaction via Ready at the expanse of Extra Attack is not ideal.

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RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.

Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.

 Now that the thread has been bumped, I'd like to point out that the 2024 have changed this. Allowing unarmed strikes to sneak attack would be problematic now that monks can always make a bonus action unarmed attack. It would allow a rogue with a monk dip to sneak attack twice per round too consistently.

 
To add to this: normally a Rogue only gets 1 attempt to Sneak Attack or 2 attempts if dual-wielding. With a small dip in Monk this makes 2 attempts or 3 if dual wielding due to their extra bonus action attack. Up to 4 attempts with Flurry of Blows. Now with a heavier dip into monk they can get extra attack and now have up to 5 attempts to sneak attack per turn. 

Sure it's still only one time per turn but going from max 2 attempts per turn to up to 5 attempts per turn means it's gonna be successful a lot more times. 

Rogue and Monk are both dex-based skirmishers with decent synergy. It's already a decent multiclass (my shadow monk assassin rogue tabaxi was very awesome to play and surprisingly strong just with standard 2014 rules) - so I would be quite hesitant to give them any further buffs. Especially since both Rogue and Monk have been quite buffed in 2024 rules as is.

Of course, but the point is that doing so regularly requires a significant amount of set up. Bonus action attack with sneak attack combined with the ready action to do another sneak attack would break that.

Loosing an Extra Attack to try maximise Sneak Attack usage would not be a reliable tactic by most players i know.

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Loosing an Extra Attack to try maximise Sneak Attack usage would not be a reliable tactic by most players i know.

 

 That is why I stated monk dip. All that's required for the rogue is to take one level in monk.

A Rogue with a Scimitar of Speed can also use such tactic. 

Allowing it opens up using a Dhampir bite attack to deal sneak attack damage.   This is your biggest abuse of it.

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Allowing it opens up using a Dhampir bite attack to deal sneak attack damage.   This is your biggest abuse of it.

Is that really an abuse case? Why would that be any worse than allowing it for normal Unarmed Strikes?

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RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.

Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.

 Now that the thread has been bumped, I'd like to point out that the 2024 have changed this. Allowing unarmed strikes to sneak attack would be problematic now that monks can always make a bonus action unarmed attack. It would allow a rogue with a monk dip to sneak attack twice per round too consistently.

 
To add to this: normally a Rogue only gets 1 attempt to Sneak Attack or 2 attempts if dual-wielding. With a small dip in Monk this makes 2 attempts or 3 if dual wielding due to their extra bonus action attack. Up to 4 attempts with Flurry of Blows. Now with a heavier dip into monk they can get extra attack and now have up to 5 attempts to sneak attack per turn. 

Sure it's still only one time per turn but going from max 2 attempts per turn to up to 5 attempts per turn means it's gonna be successful a lot more times. 

Rogue and Monk are both dex-based skirmishers with decent synergy. It's already a decent multiclass (my shadow monk assassin rogue tabaxi was very awesome to play and surprisingly strong just with standard 2014 rules) - so I would be quite hesitant to give them any further buffs. Especially since both Rogue and Monk have been quite buffed in 2024 rules as is.

 this is true, but you have several considerations. 

1 sneak attack damage is level dependent. 

2 monks damage and available flurry of blows is level dependent. 

3 monks and Rogues are the lowest damage classes in D&D.

4 Martial Arts 3.5 flurry of blows specifically included monk weapons, natural weapons, and unarmed strikes.

5 Modern D&D intentionally disincentivizes multi-classing beyond a single 1 level dip.  this is beyond making your character work for it.  you are literally penalized for it.

IMHO feats should land @ character level 4 and every 4th level.  extra attack should stack.  eldritch knights/ arcane trixters should choose their casting class, and 1/3 of those levels should directly add to the chosen casting class when determining spells, spells known, maximum spell level etc... fighter/rogue bonus feats should simply be bonus feats.  if you have 2 class features that have a linked damage increase that are the same they should merge.  monk martial arts soulknife as an example.  the monks/barbarian AC should work like the Bladesinger.  Monk should be switched to (Dex or Str)+ Wis, Spells Known/Prepared should be  x+associated ability modifier same for ki points etc...  Sneak Attack should be any attack made with dexterity.  Monks should get Longbows, and Pole weapons as monk weapons.  there is a massive tradition of pole weapons and archery as part of Asian martial arts and Buddhist martial arts traditions.   I think that if you want to use a specific weapon you should still have to meet the ability requirements of that weapon. 

these are just a few Ideas

A monk could just use a dagger and deal their martial arts damage with a finesse weapon, which would also allow sneak attack.  If the player doesn't like the flavor of their martial artist using a dagger, there's no reason to force it on them when it makes no mechanical difference.