Have never liked half anything since the TSR days. I still don't think monsters (Tieflings, Dragonborns and Orcs), should be PC's either. I think all PC's should be human or at least pass for human in some way (eg Aasimars).
You do you.
I have a question though, if you are a 1st, 2nd, AD&D only. Why the Flumph are you posting to a 5th edition and WotC focused community forum?
Also your opinion is technically false, ever since the Monster Manual in 1977 there have been rules to allow all humanoid monsters to be player characters. My favorite was in the 2nd edition AD&D version "the Complete Book of Humanoids" 1993.
Some added notes:
Dragonborn were created in 4th edition as a player option, and the official player half-dragon as prior there were several types of half-dragons some could be player characters and others were intended to be NPCs or monsters. Dragonborn were given a history based in deep D&D lore, and allowed given a set look so players could play the humanoid dragon person with ease and history. Meanwhile the confusing list of half dragons, some who looked like humans and could shapeshift into silver dragons, some who looked like drow and could shapeshift into shadow dragons, and others who were perverted dragons used as weapons of war. could be left as NPCs and monsters.
Tieflings were created for Planescape and have always been a player option.
Also "All PC's should be human" is a bit of a bad hot take, when playing a fantasy game, why be "human" also way back in the 80s lots of barely humanoid player options were invented. Some were wild and wonderful. Want to be a Matis warrior on the desert world of Arthas? Thri-kreen, now allowed to leave by way of spelljammer.
Also the Dinosuar people allowed paladins way back in 1st, only other option besides Human.
Seriously hard to look this up btw, as no on seems to have bothered uploading this campaign data.
edit:
Saurials of the Lost Vale in Cult. First playable in 1989.
Player Dinosaur people.
Bladebacks - Stegosaurus people
Finheads - can be Paladins (Basically the humans of the Dinosaur people)
Technically the Dragonborn of Bahamut race debuted in 3.5 in Races of the Dragon. But it was a weird one, almost like a template. If that version of Dragonborn were in 5e, it would be closer to a Lineage similar to Dhampir and Hexblood.
In the playtest material they were expecting the player to pick one of the character's parents to determine "racial" traits. That is what that poster was complaining about.
If that hasn't made an appearance in the new rules then I would say that is a good thing. Because I agree with that poster that it was a pretty damn racist way to handle character creation.
There are no provisions in the PHB at all to create a hybrid species. There are no sidebars, inserts or options. Only elves, gnomes, goliaths and tieflings have a mechanic allowing you to select a dedicated sub-type either.
In the playtest material they were expecting the player to pick one of the character's parents to determine "racial" traits. That is what that poster was complaining about.
If that hasn't made an appearance in the new rules then I would say that is a good thing. Because I agree with that poster that it was a pretty damn racist way to handle character creation.
There are no provisions in the PHB at all to create a hybrid species. There are no sidebars, inserts or options. Only elves, gnomes, goliaths and tieflings have a mechanic allowing you to select a dedicated sub-type either.
Could you clarify how this applies to what the OP was talking about half-races (or I guess half-species)?
In the playtest material they were expecting the player to pick one of the character's parents to determine "racial" traits. That is what that poster was complaining about.
If that hasn't made an appearance in the new rules then I would say that is a good thing. Because I agree with that poster that it was a pretty damn racist way to handle character creation.
There are no provisions in the PHB at all to create a hybrid species. There are no sidebars, inserts or options. Only elves, gnomes, goliaths and tieflings have a mechanic allowing you to select a dedicated sub-type either.
Could you clarify how this applies to what the OP was talking about half-races (or I guess half-species)?
Just providing additional information while we are on the topic of species options. No other motive is implied.
This change genuinely irritates me, and is in fact the #1 reason I'm likely to skip D&D 5.5e (or D&D 2024 or whatever we're calling it). I have heard the justifications, but frankly they don't make logical sense. Let's set aside whether the prefix "half-" is inherently racist; I disagree, but I'd also be fine with renaming these hybrids "elf-humans" or "orc-humans" or some other newly invented term.
But WOTC has decided to eliminate, not just the names, but the very existence of hybrids as a mechanical feature of the game. What is the justification for that? It is just a bare and obvious fact that the offspring of two different beings will have typically have characteristics of both. My daughter has my brown eyes and my wife's blonde hair. Biracial children usually tend to have intermediate skin colors (though not always, because the genetics of skin color is complex), and even when their skin color is not intermediate, they still tend to have some features from both parents. The fact that your children aren't your clones, and thus will tend to have some characteristics of their other parent, does not "other" them from you. If you think it does... well, that's kind of messed up, isn't it?
When it comes to different species -- D&D 2024's new term for the erstwhile races -- it's important to clarify the definition of "species." In modern biology, the idea that species are defined by their ability to produce fertile young is completely outdated. Mainstream biologists now recognize that interspecies mating is possible, albeit rare, and they often rely on other characteristics (relating to DNA, phenotypes, and other factors) to distinguish them. Read the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia pages on "species" if you don't believe me. Furthermore, even with the outdated definition of species, it was still possible to have infertile offspring (such as the mule and liger). When we look at these hybrid organisms, they often have characteristics of both parent species. Even more interesting, they often have characteristics that are distinct from *both* parents. For instance, ligers are larger than both lions and tigers!
So now apply this to D&D. Whether the playable species are truly different biological species or not, it's still plausible for them to procreate. It is highly likely these hybrids would have characteristics of both parents, and at least plausible they would have traits distinct from both parents. But the mechanics of the new rules say that any hybrid offspring must have the mechanical characteristics of only *one* parent. In other words, the new rules rule out the most likely and plausible outcome.
Now, if you're committed to seeing D&D fantasy species as analogous to human races, then you might say it's racist for D&D species to have different mechanics *at all*. But if that's the argument, then even the new D&D rules are beyond the pale. Yes, they've eliminated all race-based ability score bonuses. But they have maintained -- and even amplified -- the other differences between the species, such as Dwarven Toughness and Elven Keen Senses. If you're okay with allowing the species to have differences like those, and if you're okay with them procreating at all, then it's only the smallest and most logical step to allowing their offspring to have characteristics of both parent species. But that is what WOTC has eliminated in the new rules... in the name of anti-racism and inclusion, apparently.
I agree with removing both inherent and perceived racism from game text, and I also never liked the descriptions of half-elves and half-orcs in the last edition as literally being half human. However, I’ve always run them in my campaigns as another whole species and given them a new name. There’s lots of examples of this from other fantasy works, like the Bretons in Elder Scrolls.
Replacing half-orc with orc is great, but losing half-elf altogether adds a big hole to the player options. A species who are a bit like humans and elves is a unique flavor of fantasy roleplay that is missing. Being human is very mundane, and being a 300 year old fey creature that lives in trees, casts inherent magic, and sleeps in a trance is pretty out there. It would be great to have a species that split the difference, flavor-wise, so you could roleplay as something a little more magical than your daily life, but not need all the baggage of being an elf.
It would be nice if they included an origin feat option for humans called “elvin ancestry” or something that gave darkvision, charm immunity, and pointier ears. Problem solved.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
I agree with removing both inherent and perceived racism from game text, and I also never liked the descriptions of half-elves and half-orcs in the last edition as literally being half human. However, I’ve always run them in my campaigns as another whole species and given them a new name. There’s lots of examples of this from other fantasy works, like the Bretons in Elder Scrolls.
Replacing half-orc with orc is great, but losing half-elf altogether adds a big hole to the player options. A species who are a bit like humans and elves is a unique flavor of fantasy roleplay that is missing. Being human is very mundane, and being a 300 year old fey creature that lives in trees, casts inherent magic, and sleeps in a trance is pretty out there. It would be great to have a species that split the difference, flavor-wise, so you could roleplay as something a little more magical than your daily life, but not need all the baggage of being an elf.
It would be nice if they included an origin feat option for humans called “elvin ancestry” or something that gave darkvision, charm immunity, and pointier ears. Problem solved.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
It's been said before, but I'd be surprised if they didn't just relegate the rules for progeny of different species to the DMG. It would be an odd choice, given that a) so many players only have the PHB, and b) the DMG is coming out later than the PHB, but it wouldn't be the end of the world in that regard.
As for your campaign, there's no reason to switch immediately unless you want to actually put in the work to transfer. But also remember, the rule of thumb for this revision is that if it isn't in the new books, then you simply use the old rules (as best you can). That usually means that certain subclasses have to wait for level 3 for their first features, but everything else stays roughly the same as it is now.
I agree with removing both inherent and perceived racism from game text, and I also never liked the descriptions of half-elves and half-orcs in the last edition as literally being half human. However, I’ve always run them in my campaigns as another whole species and given them a new name. There’s lots of examples of this from other fantasy works, like the Bretons in Elder Scrolls.
Replacing half-orc with orc is great, but losing half-elf altogether adds a big hole to the player options. A species who are a bit like humans and elves is a unique flavor of fantasy roleplay that is missing. Being human is very mundane, and being a 300 year old fey creature that lives in trees, casts inherent magic, and sleeps in a trance is pretty out there. It would be great to have a species that split the difference, flavor-wise, so you could roleplay as something a little more magical than your daily life, but not need all the baggage of being an elf.
It would be nice if they included an origin feat option for humans called “elvin ancestry” or something that gave darkvision, charm immunity, and pointier ears. Problem solved.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
Im not sure what you think you will have to homebrew? The new rules should still work fine for existing characters to continue playing as you have been. 2014 characters can still play in 2024 rules. If you are converting the classes over to 2024 then I believe the PHB already has advice on updating them.
Yeah, the old rules are all playable, but if everyone else is getting new content to dig into and character sheets to fill out it’s a bummer to be the half-elf tempest domain cleric at the table.
I agree with removing both inherent and perceived racism from game text, and I also never liked the descriptions of half-elves and half-orcs in the last edition as literally being half human. However, I’ve always run them in my campaigns as another whole species and given them a new name. There’s lots of examples of this from other fantasy works, like the Bretons in Elder Scrolls.
Replacing half-orc with orc is great, but losing half-elf altogether adds a big hole to the player options. A species who are a bit like humans and elves is a unique flavor of fantasy roleplay that is missing. Being human is very mundane, and being a 300 year old fey creature that lives in trees, casts inherent magic, and sleeps in a trance is pretty out there. It would be great to have a species that split the difference, flavor-wise, so you could roleplay as something a little more magical than your daily life, but not need all the baggage of being an elf.
It would be nice if they included an origin feat option for humans called “elvin ancestry” or something that gave darkvision, charm immunity, and pointier ears. Problem solved.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
It's been said before, but I'd be surprised if they didn't just relegate the rules for progeny of different species to the DMG. It would be an odd choice, given that a) so many players only have the PHB, and b) the DMG is coming out later than the PHB, but it wouldn't be the end of the world in that regard.
As for your campaign, there's no reason to switch immediately unless you want to actually put in the work to transfer. But also remember, the rule of thumb for this revision is that if it isn't in the new books, then you simply use the old rules (as best you can). That usually means that certain subclasses have to wait for level 3 for their first features, but everything else stays roughly the same as it is now.
You’re probably right about progeny being a DMG thing. With so many possible combinations of ancestries and cultures it takes up way less book real estate to teach a DM how to make up rules than to actually make the rules.
That’s for playing a character that is some percentage of two species tho. I still think the PHB should have replaced half-elf with a new species that is somewhere between humans and elves and made that its own thing. Called them something totally different and made up a cultural backstory about a subset of humanity that moved to the feywild a millenia ago or something.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
Im not sure what you think you will have to homebrew? The new rules should still work fine for existing characters to continue playing as you have been. 2014 characters can still play in 2024 rules. If you are converting the classes over to 2024 then I believe the PHB already has advice on updating them.
I have had the 2024 PHB in hand for a bit now. There is NOTHING in the new PHB that references any sort of interaction with the prior rules at all! the 2024 PHB is written as a "pure" book, almost like nothing ever came before. There is a small pop-out on Page 5 that summarizes the changes, but no real conversion content at all.
My assumption is that interaction is more a DMG/campaign thing. We've also gotten repeated information that the 2014 and the 2024 rules are complementary; I'd just play with what I have for now. You will need to maybe convert some spell specifics, but I'd just run old and new content together until the entirety of the core set is released.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
The thing about half elf is that, really, you aren't losing anything of significance, because half-elves are totally vanilla. Their non-stat bonuses are
Darkvision
Two extra trained skills.
Fey Ancestry (resist charm, immune to sleep)
That's a perfectly solid list of abilities, I'd certainly consider it for a PC in the 2024 rules, but it's almost utterly vanilla; delete the third feature (which IME is very rarely relevant) and it might as well be a custom ancestry.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
The thing about half elf is that, really, you aren't losing anything of significance, because half-elves are totally vanilla. Their non-stat bonuses are.
Agree with y’all mechanics and min/max folks about half-elf not being that big of an exclusion.
I hear all sides of the above posters on the verbiage of the species and the representation or lack there of it represents.
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
The thing about half elf is that, really, you aren't losing anything of significance, because half-elves are totally vanilla. Their non-stat bonuses are.
Agree with y’all mechanics and min/max folks about half-elf not being that big of an exclusion.
I hear all sides of the above posters on the verbiage of the species and the representation or lack there of it represents.
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
That first time player will get over it just as fast as they get over there not being a stopgap between Orc and Gnome, or Tiefling and Dwarf, or Aasimar and Human. It's arbitrary.
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
Why should there be one? Honestly, humans and elves are different enough that it's entirely reasonable to have them unable to reproduce at all, though that's a world building decision, and they're by no means the most similar to humans (the most similar to humans is halfling). Once you've decided to open the door to hybridization, there's a zillion mixes that make at least some sense.
Well... Tuesday I will have my copy of the Rules, and from what I'm hearing from D&D content creators who have access to the PHB. No halves. No Hybrid system for optional creations either. If you want to use Half-elf or Half-Ork use the (Legacy) race species.
For now, fine. I'm not happy with the direction, as I kind of saw myself in these options, being a Human born of two vastly different ethnic backgrounds, and growing up as a Half, I kind of liked the potential with the UA full hybrid system. I was very displeased with their wording in videos, and the rational behind the changes, but not the mechanics that were being opened up in UA.
As I would see my fathers Ancestry more the Goliath and my mum more the Elvish one. And I would have made a representation of myself with this combo. Oh well. Maybe in the DMG.
Well... Tuesday I will have my copy of the Rules, and from what I'm hearing from D&D content creators who have access to the PHB. No halves. No Hybrid system for optional creations either. If you want to use Half-elf or Half-Ork use the (Legacy) race species.
Correct. I have had the PHB in hand for about two weeks now (GenCon). No halves. No hybrids. I was surprised that there was also nothing about "importing" other races into the current PHB. I'd figured there would be a "drop ability scores, everything else stays the same" thing or something. I guess that will either be a DMG thing else a UA thing.
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
Why should there be one? Honestly, humans and elves are different enough that it's entirely reasonable to have them unable to reproduce at all, though that's a world building decision, and they're by no means the most similar to humans (the most similar to humans is halfling). Once you've decided to open the door to hybridization, there's a zillion mixes that make at least some sense.
Again, I’m not talking about hybrid anything. I’m talking about a stand alone species option that is a magicalish human. Half-elf was that in the previous editions. It was one of the only ancestries that wasn’t associated with a culture. Like Aragorn in LotR is a human with a little magic from way back when, but not the son of mixed species parents. Players and DMs can write whatever story points they want or choose to play that species as literally being half human and half something else. Like has been said many times, the old rules are still valid and players can decide whatever they want for their personal backstory.
I think the game in general is now missing a baby step into playing a fantasy character that is a little more magical than than the human they are in real life but not something that involves taking on a whole cultural motif. Has no one else ever known a player who chose a half-elf because they were intimidated by the other options? I have a first time player who just joined our game this summer who was new to the whole fantasy genre and went half-elf for that very reason.
The species in the book now are all like a whole thing. I get that you can decide in your head that while the rules say human, you are actually a special human who’s a little more magic than other humans, but I think it was good for new players who have a thousand other first time concepts flying at them to have a diet high fantasy option right there in the book—that doesn’t require buying an older edition or learning what house rules are or having to roleplay any more out of their comfort zone than they already are. “I’m playing a dude, but they’re, like, more cooler and magical than the regular dudes. It says so on my sheet.”
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
Why should there be one? Honestly, humans and elves are different enough that it's entirely reasonable to have them unable to reproduce at all, though that's a world building decision, and they're by no means the most similar to humans (the most similar to humans is halfling). Once you've decided to open the door to hybridization, there's a zillion mixes that make at least some sense.
Again, I’m not talking about hybrid anything. I’m talking about a stand alone species option that is a magicalish human. Half-elf was that in the previous editions. It was one of the only ancestries that wasn’t associated with a culture. Like Aragorn in LotR is a human with a little magic from way back when, but not the son of mixed species parents. Players and DMs can write whatever story points they want or choose to play that species as literally being half human and half something else. Like has been said many times, the old rules are still valid and players can decide whatever they want for their personal backstory.
I think the game in general is now missing a baby step into playing a fantasy character that is a little more magical than than the human they are in real life but not something that involves taking on a whole cultural motif. Has no one else ever known a player who chose a half-elf because they were intimidated by the other options? I have a first time player who just joined our game this summer who was new to the whole fantasy genre and went half-elf for that very reason.
The species in the book now are all like a whole thing. I get that you can decide in your head that while the rules say human, you are actually a special human who’s a little more magic than other humans, but I think it was good for new players who have a thousand other first time concepts flying at them to have a diet high fantasy option right there in the book—that doesn’t require buying an older edition or learning what house rules are or having to roleplay any more out of their comfort zone than they already are. “I’m playing a dude, but they’re, like, more cooler and magical than the regular dudes. It says so on my sheet.”
Well they have taken a bunch of the lore away, but two half races made it as species. However I doubt this counts as a baby step as the two that made the cut are Goliath (Half-Giants) who have a specific cultural heritage and are very clearly not Human. And the Dragonborn who have multiple lore creation myths, two of which boil down Humans made into dragon like beings by Wizards or Dragons. But once again clearly not human, and very clearly mostly dragon in culture, looks, and abilities.
Everyone else in the lore were made as is by their gods, ironic since the Green Orcs are all technically Half-Orcs in the Forgotten Realms, but the Orcs in the PHB are Grey Orcs who have the Warcraft start in the realms, ie Invaders from a dying world brought over by an Evil Wizard trying to make an "intern" army, only to loose control of them because they were entire nations of people trying to find a new home. (All that lore is skipped in the PHB apparently, but they do specify their skin tones see picture:
Classic Grey Orks being cool and wholesome... unlike the highly problematic Green Orcs.
You do you.
I have a question though, if you are a 1st, 2nd, AD&D only. Why the Flumph are you posting to a 5th edition and WotC focused community forum?
Also your opinion is technically false, ever since the Monster Manual in 1977 there have been rules to allow all humanoid monsters to be player characters. My favorite was in the 2nd edition AD&D version "the Complete Book of Humanoids" 1993.
Some added notes:
Dragonborn were created in 4th edition as a player option, and the official player half-dragon as prior there were several types of half-dragons some could be player characters and others were intended to be NPCs or monsters. Dragonborn were given a history based in deep D&D lore, and allowed given a set look so players could play the humanoid dragon person with ease and history. Meanwhile the confusing list of half dragons, some who looked like humans and could shapeshift into silver dragons, some who looked like drow and could shapeshift into shadow dragons, and others who were perverted dragons used as weapons of war. could be left as NPCs and monsters.
Tieflings were created for Planescape and have always been a player option.
Also "All PC's should be human" is a bit of a bad hot take, when playing a fantasy game, why be "human" also way back in the 80s lots of barely humanoid player options were invented. Some were wild and wonderful. Want to be a Matis warrior on the desert world of Arthas? Thri-kreen, now allowed to leave by way of spelljammer.
Also the Dinosuar people allowed paladins way back in 1st, only other option besides Human.
Seriously hard to look this up btw, as no on seems to have bothered uploading this campaign data.
edit:
Saurials of the Lost Vale in Cult. First playable in 1989.
Player Dinosaur people.
Bladebacks - Stegosaurus people
Finheads - can be Paladins (Basically the humans of the Dinosaur people)
Flyer - pterosaurs but basically aarakocra
Hornhead - Triceratops people
Technically the Dragonborn of Bahamut race debuted in 3.5 in Races of the Dragon. But it was a weird one, almost like a template. If that version of Dragonborn were in 5e, it would be closer to a Lineage similar to Dhampir and Hexblood.
There are no provisions in the PHB at all to create a hybrid species. There are no sidebars, inserts or options. Only elves, gnomes, goliaths and tieflings have a mechanic allowing you to select a dedicated sub-type either.
There are no provisions in the PHB at all to create a hybrid species. There are no sidebars, inserts or options. Only elves, gnomes, goliaths and tieflings have a mechanic allowing you to select a dedicated sub-type either.
Could you clarify how this applies to what the OP was talking about half-races (or I guess half-species)?
Just providing additional information while we are on the topic of species options. No other motive is implied.
This change genuinely irritates me, and is in fact the #1 reason I'm likely to skip D&D 5.5e (or D&D 2024 or whatever we're calling it). I have heard the justifications, but frankly they don't make logical sense. Let's set aside whether the prefix "half-" is inherently racist; I disagree, but I'd also be fine with renaming these hybrids "elf-humans" or "orc-humans" or some other newly invented term.
But WOTC has decided to eliminate, not just the names, but the very existence of hybrids as a mechanical feature of the game. What is the justification for that? It is just a bare and obvious fact that the offspring of two different beings will have typically have characteristics of both. My daughter has my brown eyes and my wife's blonde hair. Biracial children usually tend to have intermediate skin colors (though not always, because the genetics of skin color is complex), and even when their skin color is not intermediate, they still tend to have some features from both parents. The fact that your children aren't your clones, and thus will tend to have some characteristics of their other parent, does not "other" them from you. If you think it does... well, that's kind of messed up, isn't it?
When it comes to different species -- D&D 2024's new term for the erstwhile races -- it's important to clarify the definition of "species." In modern biology, the idea that species are defined by their ability to produce fertile young is completely outdated. Mainstream biologists now recognize that interspecies mating is possible, albeit rare, and they often rely on other characteristics (relating to DNA, phenotypes, and other factors) to distinguish them. Read the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia pages on "species" if you don't believe me. Furthermore, even with the outdated definition of species, it was still possible to have infertile offspring (such as the mule and liger). When we look at these hybrid organisms, they often have characteristics of both parent species. Even more interesting, they often have characteristics that are distinct from *both* parents. For instance, ligers are larger than both lions and tigers!
So now apply this to D&D. Whether the playable species are truly different biological species or not, it's still plausible for them to procreate. It is highly likely these hybrids would have characteristics of both parents, and at least plausible they would have traits distinct from both parents. But the mechanics of the new rules say that any hybrid offspring must have the mechanical characteristics of only *one* parent. In other words, the new rules rule out the most likely and plausible outcome.
Now, if you're committed to seeing D&D fantasy species as analogous to human races, then you might say it's racist for D&D species to have different mechanics *at all*. But if that's the argument, then even the new D&D rules are beyond the pale. Yes, they've eliminated all race-based ability score bonuses. But they have maintained -- and even amplified -- the other differences between the species, such as Dwarven Toughness and Elven Keen Senses. If you're okay with allowing the species to have differences like those, and if you're okay with them procreating at all, then it's only the smallest and most logical step to allowing their offspring to have characteristics of both parent species. But that is what WOTC has eliminated in the new rules... in the name of anti-racism and inclusion, apparently.
I agree with removing both inherent and perceived racism from game text, and I also never liked the descriptions of half-elves and half-orcs in the last edition as literally being half human. However, I’ve always run them in my campaigns as another whole species and given them a new name. There’s lots of examples of this from other fantasy works, like the Bretons in Elder Scrolls.
Replacing half-orc with orc is great, but losing half-elf altogether adds a big hole to the player options. A species who are a bit like humans and elves is a unique flavor of fantasy roleplay that is missing. Being human is very mundane, and being a 300 year old fey creature that lives in trees, casts inherent magic, and sleeps in a trance is pretty out there. It would be great to have a species that split the difference, flavor-wise, so you could roleplay as something a little more magical than your daily life, but not need all the baggage of being an elf.
It would be nice if they included an origin feat option for humans called “elvin ancestry” or something that gave darkvision, charm immunity, and pointier ears. Problem solved.
The other big issue with not including half elves, and also with cutting so many subclasses from cleric and wizard, is that most of my table can’t cleanly adopt the new rules. As the DM, I’ll have to write a ton of house rules as workarounds that we all know will be officially released in a year or so. That‘s a bit frustrating. Of my 6 players, only one has both their class, subclass, and species in the new book.
It's been said before, but I'd be surprised if they didn't just relegate the rules for progeny of different species to the DMG. It would be an odd choice, given that a) so many players only have the PHB, and b) the DMG is coming out later than the PHB, but it wouldn't be the end of the world in that regard.
As for your campaign, there's no reason to switch immediately unless you want to actually put in the work to transfer. But also remember, the rule of thumb for this revision is that if it isn't in the new books, then you simply use the old rules (as best you can). That usually means that certain subclasses have to wait for level 3 for their first features, but everything else stays roughly the same as it is now.
Im not sure what you think you will have to homebrew? The new rules should still work fine for existing characters to continue playing as you have been. 2014 characters can still play in 2024 rules. If you are converting the classes over to 2024 then I believe the PHB already has advice on updating them.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah, the old rules are all playable, but if everyone else is getting new content to dig into and character sheets to fill out it’s a bummer to be the half-elf tempest domain cleric at the table.
You’re probably right about progeny being a DMG thing. With so many possible combinations of ancestries and cultures it takes up way less book real estate to teach a DM how to make up rules than to actually make the rules.
That’s for playing a character that is some percentage of two species tho. I still think the PHB should have replaced half-elf with a new species that is somewhere between humans and elves and made that its own thing. Called them something totally different and made up a cultural backstory about a subset of humanity that moved to the feywild a millenia ago or something.
I have had the 2024 PHB in hand for a bit now. There is NOTHING in the new PHB that references any sort of interaction with the prior rules at all! the 2024 PHB is written as a "pure" book, almost like nothing ever came before. There is a small pop-out on Page 5 that summarizes the changes, but no real conversion content at all.
My assumption is that interaction is more a DMG/campaign thing. We've also gotten repeated information that the 2014 and the 2024 rules are complementary; I'd just play with what I have for now. You will need to maybe convert some spell specifics, but I'd just run old and new content together until the entirety of the core set is released.
The thing about half elf is that, really, you aren't losing anything of significance, because half-elves are totally vanilla. Their non-stat bonuses are
That's a perfectly solid list of abilities, I'd certainly consider it for a PC in the 2024 rules, but it's almost utterly vanilla; delete the third feature (which IME is very rarely relevant) and it might as well be a custom ancestry.
Agree with y’all mechanics and min/max folks about half-elf not being that big of an exclusion.
I hear all sides of the above posters on the verbiage of the species and the representation or lack there of it represents.
What I’d like to add to the conversation is the je ne sais quoi, mise-en-scéne, and wholistic concept of having a book in front of you as a first time player with a breadth of character options to get your creative juices flowing, and there not being a stop gap between elf and human.
That first time player will get over it just as fast as they get over there not being a stopgap between Orc and Gnome, or Tiefling and Dwarf, or Aasimar and Human. It's arbitrary.
Why should there be one? Honestly, humans and elves are different enough that it's entirely reasonable to have them unable to reproduce at all, though that's a world building decision, and they're by no means the most similar to humans (the most similar to humans is halfling). Once you've decided to open the door to hybridization, there's a zillion mixes that make at least some sense.
Well... Tuesday I will have my copy of the Rules, and from what I'm hearing from D&D content creators who have access to the PHB. No halves. No Hybrid system for optional creations either. If you want to use Half-elf or Half-Ork use the (Legacy)
racespecies.For now, fine. I'm not happy with the direction, as I kind of saw myself in these options, being a Human born of two vastly different ethnic backgrounds, and growing up as a Half, I kind of liked the potential with the UA full hybrid system. I was very displeased with their wording in videos, and the rational behind the changes, but not the mechanics that were being opened up in UA.
As I would see my fathers Ancestry more the Goliath and my mum more the Elvish one. And I would have made a representation of myself with this combo. Oh well. Maybe in the DMG.
Correct. I have had the PHB in hand for about two weeks now (GenCon). No halves. No hybrids. I was surprised that there was also nothing about "importing" other races into the current PHB. I'd figured there would be a "drop ability scores, everything else stays the same" thing or something. I guess that will either be a DMG thing else a UA thing.
Again, I’m not talking about hybrid anything. I’m talking about a stand alone species option that is a magicalish human. Half-elf was that in the previous editions. It was one of the only ancestries that wasn’t associated with a culture. Like Aragorn in LotR is a human with a little magic from way back when, but not the son of mixed species parents. Players and DMs can write whatever story points they want or choose to play that species as literally being half human and half something else. Like has been said many times, the old rules are still valid and players can decide whatever they want for their personal backstory.
I think the game in general is now missing a baby step into playing a fantasy character that is a little more magical than than the human they are in real life but not something that involves taking on a whole cultural motif. Has no one else ever known a player who chose a half-elf because they were intimidated by the other options? I have a first time player who just joined our game this summer who was new to the whole fantasy genre and went half-elf for that very reason.
The species in the book now are all like a whole thing. I get that you can decide in your head that while the rules say human, you are actually a special human who’s a little more magic than other humans, but I think it was good for new players who have a thousand other first time concepts flying at them to have a diet high fantasy option right there in the book—that doesn’t require buying an older edition or learning what house rules are or having to roleplay any more out of their comfort zone than they already are. “I’m playing a dude, but they’re, like, more cooler and magical than the regular dudes. It says so on my sheet.”
Well they have taken a bunch of the lore away, but two half races made it as species. However I doubt this counts as a baby step as the two that made the cut are Goliath (Half-Giants) who have a specific cultural heritage and are very clearly not Human. And the Dragonborn who have multiple lore creation myths, two of which boil down Humans made into dragon like beings by Wizards or Dragons. But once again clearly not human, and very clearly mostly dragon in culture, looks, and abilities.
Everyone else in the lore were made as is by their gods, ironic since the Green Orcs are all technically Half-Orcs in the Forgotten Realms, but the Orcs in the PHB are Grey Orcs who have the Warcraft start in the realms, ie Invaders from a dying world brought over by an Evil Wizard trying to make an "intern" army, only to loose control of them because they were entire nations of people trying to find a new home. (All that lore is skipped in the PHB apparently, but they do specify their skin tones see picture:
Classic Grey Orks being cool and wholesome... unlike the highly problematic Green Orcs.