It's normal for WotCevery company in the tabletop gaming industry to do this. I'd prefer companies stuck to their dates when possible...but it's not unexpected that they'd delay both when one is in trouble.
FIFY
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Lol no. Both FL and Modiphius release the digital the instant you pay for it. It's routine to have your digital months before the physical is released.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's kind of ridiculous the digital release is being delayed, which immediately makes me suspicious of something weird going on with the product. Either there is something they're redacting or changing last minute. Is this also going to push back other products down the pipeline? I hope not, I feel like we're in a content drought, despite the new rules coming out and reinstating some interest in the system. It got a fresh coat of paint, but nothing new to go with it.
Release the digital product on time. Let people play your game.
I want the digital copy too, but I don't think there's a 'conspiracy of other problems'. They don't want to release the digital copy because it will undercut the legs of FLGS because people forced to wait will choose the Digital copy instead.
What's a bit rough for me is that they took my preorder money the day before this announcement meaning they knew what was coming but did it anyway.
It's kind of ridiculous the digital release is being delayed, which immediately makes me suspicious of something weird going on with the product. Either there is something they're redacting or changing last minute. Is this also going to push back other products down the pipeline? I hope not, I feel like we're in a content drought, despite the new rules coming out and reinstating some interest in the system. It got a fresh coat of paint, but nothing new to go with it.
Release the digital product on time. Let people play your game.
I want the digital copy too, but I don't think there's a 'conspiracy of other problems'. They don't want to release the digital copy because it will undercut the legs of FLGS because people forced to wait will choose the Digital copy instead.
What's a bit rough for me is that they took my preorder money the day before this announcement meaning they knew what was coming but did it anyway.
And they're still intending to deliver the product, nor can they record the money as revenue until they release the book. Is there a reason they shouldn't continue to offer a product they apparently have every intention of delivering?
It's kind of ridiculous the digital release is being delayed, which immediately makes me suspicious of something weird going on with the product. Either there is something they're redacting or changing last minute. Is this also going to push back other products down the pipeline? I hope not, I feel like we're in a content drought, despite the new rules coming out and reinstating some interest in the system. It got a fresh coat of paint, but nothing new to go with it.
Release the digital product on time. Let people play your game.
I want the digital copy too, but I don't think there's a 'conspiracy of other problems'. They don't want to release the digital copy because it will undercut the legs of FLGS because people forced to wait will choose the Digital copy instead.
What's a bit rough for me is that they took my preorder money the day before this announcement meaning they knew what was coming but did it anyway.
And they're still intending to deliver the product, nor can they record the money as revenue until they release the book. Is there a reason they shouldn't continue to offer a product they apparently have every intention of delivering?
Because these delays make people consider cancelling orders.
WOTC refund process is far far harder than cancellations. This one bit is the part that pisses me off.
One of the reasons I don't preorder from WotC is because they take your money before they're ready to actually send the product.
That's kind of the nature of preordering? Honestly, preordering digital products in general does not make a lot of sense -- there's some argument for preordering physical products because otherwise the correct number might not be shipped to your FLGS, but digital products don't have a limited supply.
Taking money a month before, when they have the product and are proceeding to start the shipping, completely makes sense. But they did not charge everyone yesterday, then wake up today and say "Oh maybe we should change our mind". They charged everyone knowing that the refund process is far harder than cancellation, before making the announcement. Thus I'm going to force them to jump through the refund hoops even if I buy the product later.
Lol no. Both FL and Modiphius release the digital the instant you pay for it. It's routine to have your digital months before the physical is released.
Pardon, but who? And there are plenty of companies that do not do any sort of preorders. That does not make preorders strange.
One of the reasons I don't preorder from WotC is because they take your money before they're ready to actually send the product.
That's kind of the nature of preordering? Honestly, preordering digital products in general does not make a lot of sense -- there's some argument for preordering physical products because otherwise the correct number might not be shipped to your FLGS, but digital products don't have a limited supply.
Depends on who you preorder from. Many companies don't charge you for a preorder until it's actually ready to ship, and that's not just the big ones like Amazon.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Lol no. Both FL and Modiphius release the digital the instant you pay for it. It's routine to have your digital months before the physical is released.
Pardon, but who? And there are plenty of companies that do not do any sort of preorders. That does not make preorders strange.
Free League Publishing makes Lord of the Rings and Ruins of Symbaroum, but mostly "RPG around a franchise" games. Modiphius is an all "RPG around a franchise" publisher.
And they're still intending to deliver the product, nor can they record the money as revenue until they release the book. Is there a reason they shouldn't continue to offer a product they apparently have every intention of delivering?
If someone sells a product under the premise of certain specifications (including date of delivery) that they know are wrong, then that's wrong. If I sell you a product saying you'll get it tomorrow, when I know it won't be ready until next year,.then that's wrong. I'm trying to get you to buy it under false premises.
Now, there's always a "day before the announcement a delay is announced". Perhaps Perringaiden knows something I don't, but I'm not going to hold "but they took my money then day before the announcement" as some indictment of WotC. Decisions take time, and that's not evidence that they've done anything intentionally deceitfully. On the other hand, it's very much worth pointing out that "they intend to deliver at some point" is not a defence against "they intentionally took my money on a false premise of when they'd fulfil their end of the transaction".
Lol no. Both FL and Modiphius release the digital the instant you pay for it. It's routine to have your digital months before the physical is released.
Pardon, but who? And there are plenty of companies that do not do any sort of preorders. That does not make preorders strange.
Modiphius and Free League are major publisher's of TTRPGs. Free League does The One Ring, Lord of the Rings Role-playing 5e, and a bunch of others. I'm aware of three games on DDB (as opposed to alternative settings - D&D, plus two by FL. Modiphius does Star Trek, Walking Dead, Fallout, Elder Scrolls and a whole bunch of others.
Regardless, the claim was that "every company in the tabletop industry to do this". The claim was nothing to do with it being weird, or limited to companies you're aware of, but a specific claim that every company did this. They don't. I named two that, the instant you pre-order, your digital copy is available to you. Delaying the digital release for pre-orders on account of problems with the physical is a nonsensical concept for them.
Both have, in my experience, had one similarish incident. STA's 2e CRB had an issue where there was something wrong with the port and so the shipment got stuck on the boat (I can't remember the details), so the Americans had their books delayed for a few weeks. FL's Moria was during a problem of shortages of supplies and so Oceania didn't get their copies for a month or so. In both incidents, yes, it was disappointing and possibly anxiety inducing for those who were hit by delays, but at least it didn't interfere with their games because at least they had their digital copies they could use in the mean time.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
One of the reasons I don't preorder from WotC is because they take your money before they're ready to actually send the product.
That's kind of the nature of preordering? Honestly, preordering digital products in general does not make a lot of sense -- there's some argument for preordering physical products because otherwise the correct number might not be shipped to your FLGS, but digital products don't have a limited supply.
Often there are perks. In companies that offer PDFs with physical purchases, you often get the PDF immediately for use, and you just have to wait for the physical. Other times, you get other perks so they can get your money in the bank and gathering interest (or reinvested, or to help pay for printing, etc).
I generally won't preorder from WotC though. The perks aren't really of much interest and, to be honest, other companies products are lot more consistently very good and predictable as to whether it would interest me. WotC is less predictable and can be good or be disappointing. I've only pre-ordered Spelljammer (cheap alt covers which were gorgeous), the 2024 rules (I knew I'd be getting them anyway plus tons of perks) and Vecna (free oneshot adventure). The one week/two week early release with subs just isn't a worthy consideration for me.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Modiphius and Free League are major publisher's of TTRPGs. Free League does The One Ring, Lord of the Rings Role-playing 5e, and a bunch of others. I'm aware of three games on DDB (as opposed to alternative settings - D&D, plus two by FL. Modiphius does Star Trek, Walking Dead, Fallout, Elder Scrolls and a whole bunch of others.
Regardless, the claim was that "every company in the tabletop industry to do this". The claim was nothing to do with it being weird, or limited to companies you're aware of, but a specific claim that every company did this. They don't. I named two that, the instant you pre-order, your digital copy is available to you. Delaying the digital release for pre-orders on account of problems with the physical is a nonsensical concept for them.
Both have, in my experience, had one similarish incident. STA's 2e CRB had an issue where there was something wrong with the port and so the shipment got stuck on the boat (I can't remember the details), so the Americans had their books delayed for a few weeks. FL's Moria was during a problem of shortages of supplies and so Oceania didn't get their copies for a month or so. In both incidents, yes, it was disappointing and possibly anxiety inducing for those who were hit by delays, but at least it didn't interfere with their games because at least they had their digital copies they could use in the mean time.
I think we have different definitions of 'major publishers,' or at least you are qualifying the category of publishers narrow, artificially magnifying apparent significance.
And "every company" is also clearly rhetoric, since it would only take one exception to disprove, rather than the more reasonable take of it being common, or at least not uncommon in the industry.
I do agree that there are often preorder incentives, but not always immediate ones.
And they're still intending to deliver the product, nor can they record the money as revenue until they release the book. Is there a reason they shouldn't continue to offer a product they apparently have every intention of delivering?
They may not be allowed to record it as revenue, but that doesn't mean it's sitting in escrow and it is unavailable for use by them.
It not being recorded as revenue is a distinction without a difference when it comes to using that money.
Personally, I have not bought any physical books since I was let down royally with the Spelljammer books. My roommate, who did buy physical books, stopped after the started coming apart at the seams due to heavy use. He now uses digital on his laptop like I do.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Wow, it really just sounds like people who prefer physical copies want everyone to suffer as much as they do. I don't prefer physical copies, and there shouldn't be a problem letting people like me experience the content. It doesn't take anything away from you- you can enjoy your physical copy when it arrives.
Will it affect physical sales? Maybe. I don't think Wizards has done an actual experiment to see what the effect will be. Maybe the pie will increase as more people enjoy the digital content and buy more in general.
At the end of the day we know one thing:
Wizards is delaying the release of the digital product because of printing issues in the physical product. For the CUSTOMER, this is the WRONG choice and they should re-evaluate.
Release the Digital but delay the physical? They would be excoriated by those that think they are de-prioritizing physical releases to funnel people into the "Digital walled Garden" leading to lost sales and ill will.
Release both and fix it on the next print? They would be excoriated for pulling another Spelljammer release with poor printing quality, leading to lost sales and ill will.
This way, delaying both, they can't be accused of Favoritism toward either market, but as we have seen in this thread, there are already conspiricay talk of them doing a last minute redaction for whatever reason, and the Digital only crowd is furious, but here is the thing. The Physical fans aren't super pleased either. There is no "Win condition" for them here. Wheter you chalk it up to overreation or complete collapse of trust because of their actions in recent years, everyone will be mad.
But no one can be accused of being the favorite. This is likely their carefully evaluated course of action to not lose sales.
No one is gloating that the Digital players are being deprived, that is hyperbolic. I personally wouldn't have Delayed Digital, but i am not WoTC, but just because i would have personally done something different that does not mean i can't see the point of view of a different decision, and me pointing that out is not reveling in other's frustration.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
As I recall, the last time there was a delay due to printing quality was with Deck of Many Things in 2023. That time, WotC went ahead with releasing the digital version at the original launch date, ahead of the delayed print release. And as I recall, WotC faced criticism for not pushing back the digital release to match the delayed physical release. Looks like another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for WotC.
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FIFY
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Lol no. Both FL and Modiphius release the digital the instant you pay for it. It's routine to have your digital months before the physical is released.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I want the digital copy too, but I don't think there's a 'conspiracy of other problems'. They don't want to release the digital copy because it will undercut the legs of FLGS because people forced to wait will choose the Digital copy instead.
What's a bit rough for me is that they took my preorder money the day before this announcement meaning they knew what was coming but did it anyway.
One of the reasons I don't preorder from WotC is because they take your money before they're ready to actually send the product.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And they're still intending to deliver the product, nor can they record the money as revenue until they release the book. Is there a reason they shouldn't continue to offer a product they apparently have every intention of delivering?
Because these delays make people consider cancelling orders.
WOTC refund process is far far harder than cancellations. This one bit is the part that pisses me off.
That's just preoders in general, you don't need to single out WotC for something everyone does
That's kind of the nature of preordering? Honestly, preordering digital products in general does not make a lot of sense -- there's some argument for preordering physical products because otherwise the correct number might not be shipped to your FLGS, but digital products don't have a limited supply.
Taking money a month before, when they have the product and are proceeding to start the shipping, completely makes sense. But they did not charge everyone yesterday, then wake up today and say "Oh maybe we should change our mind". They charged everyone knowing that the refund process is far harder than cancellation, before making the announcement. Thus I'm going to force them to jump through the refund hoops even if I buy the product later.
Pardon, but who? And there are plenty of companies that do not do any sort of preorders. That does not make preorders strange.
Depends on who you preorder from. Many companies don't charge you for a preorder until it's actually ready to ship, and that's not just the big ones like Amazon.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Free League Publishing makes Lord of the Rings and Ruins of Symbaroum, but mostly "RPG around a franchise" games. Modiphius is an all "RPG around a franchise" publisher.
If someone sells a product under the premise of certain specifications (including date of delivery) that they know are wrong, then that's wrong. If I sell you a product saying you'll get it tomorrow, when I know it won't be ready until next year,.then that's wrong. I'm trying to get you to buy it under false premises.
Now, there's always a "day before the announcement a delay is announced". Perhaps Perringaiden knows something I don't, but I'm not going to hold "but they took my money then day before the announcement" as some indictment of WotC. Decisions take time, and that's not evidence that they've done anything intentionally deceitfully. On the other hand, it's very much worth pointing out that "they intend to deliver at some point" is not a defence against "they intentionally took my money on a false premise of when they'd fulfil their end of the transaction".
Modiphius and Free League are major publisher's of TTRPGs. Free League does The One Ring, Lord of the Rings Role-playing 5e, and a bunch of others. I'm aware of three games on DDB (as opposed to alternative settings - D&D, plus two by FL. Modiphius does Star Trek, Walking Dead, Fallout, Elder Scrolls and a whole bunch of others.
Regardless, the claim was that "every company in the tabletop industry to do this". The claim was nothing to do with it being weird, or limited to companies you're aware of, but a specific claim that every company did this. They don't. I named two that, the instant you pre-order, your digital copy is available to you. Delaying the digital release for pre-orders on account of problems with the physical is a nonsensical concept for them.
Both have, in my experience, had one similarish incident. STA's 2e CRB had an issue where there was something wrong with the port and so the shipment got stuck on the boat (I can't remember the details), so the Americans had their books delayed for a few weeks. FL's Moria was during a problem of shortages of supplies and so Oceania didn't get their copies for a month or so. In both incidents, yes, it was disappointing and possibly anxiety inducing for those who were hit by delays, but at least it didn't interfere with their games because at least they had their digital copies they could use in the mean time.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Often there are perks. In companies that offer PDFs with physical purchases, you often get the PDF immediately for use, and you just have to wait for the physical. Other times, you get other perks so they can get your money in the bank and gathering interest (or reinvested, or to help pay for printing, etc).
I generally won't preorder from WotC though. The perks aren't really of much interest and, to be honest, other companies products are lot more consistently very good and predictable as to whether it would interest me. WotC is less predictable and can be good or be disappointing. I've only pre-ordered Spelljammer (cheap alt covers which were gorgeous), the 2024 rules (I knew I'd be getting them anyway plus tons of perks) and Vecna (free oneshot adventure). The one week/two week early release with subs just isn't a worthy consideration for me.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think we have different definitions of 'major publishers,' or at least you are qualifying the category of publishers narrow, artificially magnifying apparent significance.
And "every company" is also clearly rhetoric, since it would only take one exception to disprove, rather than the more reasonable take of it being common, or at least not uncommon in the industry.
I do agree that there are often preorder incentives, but not always immediate ones.
They may not be allowed to record it as revenue, but that doesn't mean it's sitting in escrow and it is unavailable for use by them.
It not being recorded as revenue is a distinction without a difference when it comes to using that money.
Personally, I have not bought any physical books since I was let down royally with the Spelljammer books. My roommate, who did buy physical books, stopped after the started coming apart at the seams due to heavy use. He now uses digital on his laptop like I do.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Wow, it really just sounds like people who prefer physical copies want everyone to suffer as much as they do. I don't prefer physical copies, and there shouldn't be a problem letting people like me experience the content. It doesn't take anything away from you- you can enjoy your physical copy when it arrives.
Will it affect physical sales? Maybe. I don't think Wizards has done an actual experiment to see what the effect will be. Maybe the pie will increase as more people enjoy the digital content and buy more in general.
At the end of the day we know one thing:
Wizards is delaying the release of the digital product because of printing issues in the physical product. For the CUSTOMER, this is the WRONG choice and they should re-evaluate.
This is a true Dilemma for WoTC.
Release the Digital but delay the physical? They would be excoriated by those that think they are de-prioritizing physical releases to funnel people into the "Digital walled Garden" leading to lost sales and ill will.
Release both and fix it on the next print? They would be excoriated for pulling another Spelljammer release with poor printing quality, leading to lost sales and ill will.
This way, delaying both, they can't be accused of Favoritism toward either market, but as we have seen in this thread, there are already conspiricay talk of them doing a last minute redaction for whatever reason, and the Digital only crowd is furious, but here is the thing. The Physical fans aren't super pleased either.
There is no "Win condition" for them here. Wheter you chalk it up to overreation or complete collapse of trust because of their actions in recent years, everyone will be mad.
But no one can be accused of being the favorite. This is likely their carefully evaluated course of action to not lose sales.
No one is gloating that the Digital players are being deprived, that is hyperbolic. I personally wouldn't have Delayed Digital, but i am not WoTC, but just because i would have personally done something different that does not mean i can't see the point of view of a different decision, and me pointing that out is not reveling in other's frustration.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
As I recall, the last time there was a delay due to printing quality was with Deck of Many Things in 2023. That time, WotC went ahead with releasing the digital version at the original launch date, ahead of the delayed print release. And as I recall, WotC faced criticism for not pushing back the digital release to match the delayed physical release. Looks like another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for WotC.