Lets say I start a character as a warlock, and pick up agonising blast, so I get to add CHA bonuses to Eldritch blast.
I then get level 6 as a draconic sorcerer, child of an Amethyst dragon, so I can add CHA bonuses to force damage.
I then get up to level 11 as an evoker mage, adding INT bonuses to evocation damage.
And just for a laugh, find some weirdo priest class thats all about physical or raw magic damage, so I can add my WIS in too.
Do I get to add all those bonuses together on Eldritch Blast, as it is both force and evocation, OR, would I just use whichever is the single best bonus?
(EB doing 80+4D10 isnt unfair, is it? lol. additional, x2 with quickened or twinned spell).
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RAW you cannot do the Sorcerer one because Amethyst dragon/Force damage is not an option in the subclass. Also, you only get to add the mod to a single damage roll per spell. Empowered Evocation isn’t compatible in the first place because it only works on Wizard spells, and once again would only add the mod to one damage roll per cast. The Cleric Potent Cantrips effect likewise is not compatible with Eldritch Blast because EB is not a Cleric cantrip.
Ahha, if I may! (I know I'm stretching the point, but what the hell).
Theres not really any reason to disallow an amethyst draconic sorcerer. There are amethyst dragonborn (in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons), and force spells in every level, and so on. if a DM allows it, why not. As for wizard and cleric (and sorcerer), you could possibly take the magic initiate feat, like with each class, and each one takes Eldritch blast as a cantrip.
This isnt really about what classes can and can not. its about can you add multiple stat bonuses to a single spell.
For example, similar question. Celestial Warlock (bonus fire and radiant damage), plus Red/Gold/Brass Draconic sorcerer (bonus fire damage). Result, CHA of 20 = +10 fire damage.
I'm still guessing that its "pick the single best bonus, not all of them", but I don't know if thats cannon.
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Magic Initiate wouldn’t let you treat the spell as being from another class. Plus, as of 2024, you can only use it for Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spells.
In point of fact, it is about what classes can/cannot, because these effects are usually deliberately written to disallow this kind of stacking. If you can find a DM who is okay with it that’s fine, but by Rules As Written what you are describing is generally not possible.
Separate applicable effects can stack - Celestial Warlock’s Radiant Soul and Draconic Sorcerer’s Elemental affinity both can be simultaneously applicable to a fire spell, and you can add your charisma twice to a single instance of fire damage.
The problem with your first hypothetical is, as The_Ace_of_Rogues pointed out, that you were trying to stack effects that are not simultaneously applicable, as well as an effect that does not exist under the rules as written.
As for wizard and cleric (and sorcerer), you could possibly take the magic initiate feat, like with each class, and each one takes Eldritch blast as a cantrip.
Even in this scenario (which again isn’t possible because that’s not how MI works), you would have to choose which version of the spell to cast and thus which bonus applies. A single cast wouldn’t qualify for all these bonuses.
(I still think amethyst draconic sorcerer might work, but its only adding CHA once on the Eldritch Blast spell, not once for each individual beam)
There are mechanical reasons behind the exclusion of Amethyst Dragon.
Force damage is intentionally balanced around how rarely it is resisted - neither monsters nor players tend to get resistance to force damage. Allowing access to Draconic Amethyst Soul would give players a damage boost with a damage type nearly no monsters can resist. More importantly, however, it would also give players access to a resistance they are not really supposed to have, which therefore gives them resistance against monster attacks and spells intentionally designed with “players will almost certainly not resist this” in mind during the design stage.
I am not sure those are the most game breaking effects in the world (damage is, often, the least important thing in a well designed combat), but they are game design considerations Wizards almost certainly takes into account when designing and limiting abilities.
Amethyst Dragonborn are literally in, with guidelines for making characters, in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons, a 5e book.
And they're literally not listed as an option for the Draconic Sorcerer that was printed in the 2024 PHB, after Fizban's was published. It was a deliberate exclusion.
It’s a moot point either way. The existence of a gem dragonborn or of gem dragons themselves still doesn’t guarantee you’d be able to select gem dragons as your sorcerer’s draconic ancestry.
All books are compatible with the exception of the 2014e versions of the PHB, MM & DMG.
That's not how the compatibility works. The existence of Gem Dragons and Time Dragons and on and on doesn't mean you can grab their element and apply it to something like the Draconic Sorcerer subclass on your own initiative as a player. You can have a Gem Dragonborn PC that is then built using content from the 2024 PHB. You can use the Drakewarden or Way of the Ascendant Dragon subclasses with the 2024 Ranger or Monk (and note that neither gives you gem elements to play with for their features). You as a player cannot declare that your Draconic Sorcerer picks a gem dragon element for their 6th level feature- those are not listed as an option and there is no existing feature that expressly allows for a substitution.
"Hay DM, I want to play a gem dragonborn, or a variant human gem dragon descendant, and use their element for their draconic sorcerer class, that okay"?
"Yeah, but once you pick it, you're stuck with it. No switching to fire later cos there are more fire spells".
And that's how that conversation goes.
Anyway, there are other much more fun options. For example, Emerald dragonborn do psychic dragon, get to level 6 as draconic sorcerer for the psychic damage boost, then go bard, for a 'killer' Vicious Mockery.
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When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
Sure, but a question about whether something is possible doesn’t serve much purpose if you’re just going to change the rules to make it possible regardless.
This is in reply to GuyrixSterling, I cannot be bothered to fuss about with the awkward quote system, so I'm just copy-pasting.
"Lets say I start a character as a warlock, and pick up agonising blast, so I get to add CHA bonuses to Eldritch blast."
2014 Rules - Agonising Blast will add +Cha bonus to all damage rolls of any cast of Eldritch Blast.
2024 Rules - Agonising Blast will add +Cha bonus to all damage rolls of Eldritch Blast when cast as a Warlock spell. If any feature grants the spell as something other than a Warlock spell, the bonus cannot be applied.
"I then get level 6 as a draconic sorcerer, child of an Amethyst dragon, so I can add CHA bonuses to force damage."
No such feature exists in official 5th Edition rules.
"I then get up to level 11 as an evoker mage, adding INT bonuses to evocation damage."
The feature you're referring to is Level 10 - Empowered Evocation and only applies to Wizard spells. No official feature exists, to my knowledge, that allows taking Eldritch Blast as a Wizard spell.
"And just for a laugh, find some weirdo priest class thats all about physical or raw magic damage, so I can add my WIS in too."
Does not exist in official 5th Edition rules.
So, no, these bonuses cannot be stacked.
"Theres not really any reason to disallow an amethyst draconic sorcerer. There are amethyst dragonborn (in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons), and force spells in every level, and so on. if a DM allows it, why not. "
There is a reason: it is not within the rules. Some DMs, especially new ones, prefer sticking to the rules because it less of a headache to keep things balanced. Force damage is the least resisted damage type compared to the elemental damages. Agonising Eldritch Blast is already very strong within the official rules, it should not be buffed even more through homebrew - it will get very unbalanced.
"if a DM allows it, why not"
Pointless to discuss things from this view. If this was a "as a DM would you allow it?" sure, but that's not what you've asked. A DM can allow or disallow anything they want. A DM could allow you a cantrip that does 2,000,000 force damage if they want. If you have a DM already allowing it, this thread serves no purpose. This thread isn't asking if we, as a DM, would allow it, and so the only use of this thread is discussing actual rules. By actual rules, this would not work. And that answer is no. Should a DM allow this? Up to personal DMs. For me it's a no. It's insanely unbalanced and I don't need that stress or headache in my life.
"As for wizard and cleric (and sorcerer), you could possibly take the magic initiate feat, like with each class, and each one takes Eldritch blast as a cantrip."
The Magic Initiate does not change which class the spell is considered to be. If you chose Magic Initiate: Warlock, the spell remains a Warlock spell so would not count as a Wizard spell (so, no Empowered Evocation stacking). In 2024 version of this feat, warlock spells can't be taken at all - specifically to prevent taking eldritch blast.
"For example, similar question. Celestial Warlock (bonus fire and radiant damage), plus Red/Gold/Brass Draconic sorcerer (bonus fire damage)."
The bonus fron Dragon Sorc applies to any spell that does the chosen damage type regardless of how the spell is cast. It can apply to spells cast through feats, other classes and even magic items. The Celestial's Radiant Soul feature works the same way for Fire and Radiant damage. So yes, these stack. Not only that but under 2024 Warlock rules you can select any Warlock cantrip for Agonising Blast, which can include Fire Bolt, so you can combine Agonising Blast, Radiant Soul and Dragon's Affinity for x3 cha mod bonus (1d10 + cha mod + cha mod + cha mod, if your cha mod was +5 that's 1d10+15 fire damage).
Unlike Eldritch Blast, elemental damage cantrips having stacking bonuses isn't unbalanced - they're the most resisted damage types (fire, in particular) and only has a single damage roll to apply the bonuses to, instead of E-Blast that can apply the bonuses to multiple rolls.
Think of it like this, to showcase the difference in balancing:
Even with the stacking and max level the Firebolt will deal 4d10+15 fire damage, so between 19-55 damage, and is the most common resisted elemental damage. And getting this requires heavy multiclassing so no end-game capstone features and at least one less feat.
Eldritch Blast + just Agonising Blast is 4d10+20 , 24-60, force damage - the least resisted damage type in D&D. And doesn't require any multiclassing or loss of other features.
Absolutely massive difference. This is why the rules don't allow such stacking with Eldritch Blast. It would be very broken.
"Amethyst Dragonborn are literally in, with guidelines for making characters, in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons, a 5e book."
As a race/species choice, not as a subclass choice - for balancing reasons, as explained.
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Sure, but a question about whether something is possible doesn’t serve much purpose if you’re just going to change the rules to make it possible regardless.
All books are compatible with the exception of the 2014e versions of the PHB, MM & DMG.
That's not how the compatibility works. The existence of Gem Dragons and Time Dragons and on and on doesn't mean you can grab their element and apply it to something like the Draconic Sorcerer subclass on your own initiative as a player. You can have a Gem Dragonborn PC that is then built using content from the 2024 PHB. You can use the Drakewarden or Way of the Ascendant Dragon subclasses with the 2024 Ranger or Monk (and note that neither gives you gem elements to play with for their features). You as a player cannot declare that your Draconic Sorcerer picks a gem dragon element for their 6th level feature- those are not listed as an option and there is no existing feature that expressly allows for a substitution.
They are not going to put references in to optional books. They never have. It is fair to say that the lack of an option being listed in Fizban's is noteworthy, but not that there is a lack of a reference to Fizban's dragons in the 2024 PHB.
It is not any sort of wild stretch though for any given DM to allow it. Simply assuming that this was any sort of carefully thought out choice on the part of the Devs is just that, at best an assumption. It is RAW that they are not an option but that does not mean it would therefore be imbalanced to allow otherwise.
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Lets say I start a character as a warlock, and pick up agonising blast, so I get to add CHA bonuses to Eldritch blast.
I then get level 6 as a draconic sorcerer, child of an Amethyst dragon, so I can add CHA bonuses to force damage.
I then get up to level 11 as an evoker mage, adding INT bonuses to evocation damage.
And just for a laugh, find some weirdo priest class thats all about physical or raw magic damage, so I can add my WIS in too.
Do I get to add all those bonuses together on Eldritch Blast, as it is both force and evocation, OR, would I just use whichever is the single best bonus?
(EB doing 80+4D10 isnt unfair, is it? lol. additional, x2 with quickened or twinned spell).
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
RAW you cannot do the Sorcerer one because Amethyst dragon/Force damage is not an option in the subclass. Also, you only get to add the mod to a single damage roll per spell. Empowered Evocation isn’t compatible in the first place because it only works on Wizard spells, and once again would only add the mod to one damage roll per cast. The Cleric Potent Cantrips effect likewise is not compatible with Eldritch Blast because EB is not a Cleric cantrip.
Ahha, if I may! (I know I'm stretching the point, but what the hell).
Theres not really any reason to disallow an amethyst draconic sorcerer. There are amethyst dragonborn (in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons), and force spells in every level, and so on. if a DM allows it, why not. As for wizard and cleric (and sorcerer), you could possibly take the magic initiate feat, like with each class, and each one takes Eldritch blast as a cantrip.
This isnt really about what classes can and can not. its about can you add multiple stat bonuses to a single spell.
For example, similar question. Celestial Warlock (bonus fire and radiant damage), plus Red/Gold/Brass Draconic sorcerer (bonus fire damage). Result, CHA of 20 = +10 fire damage.
I'm still guessing that its "pick the single best bonus, not all of them", but I don't know if thats cannon.
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
Magic Initiate wouldn’t let you treat the spell as being from another class. Plus, as of 2024, you can only use it for Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spells.
In point of fact, it is about what classes can/cannot, because these effects are usually deliberately written to disallow this kind of stacking. If you can find a DM who is okay with it that’s fine, but by Rules As Written what you are describing is generally not possible.
Separate applicable effects can stack - Celestial Warlock’s Radiant Soul and Draconic Sorcerer’s Elemental affinity both can be simultaneously applicable to a fire spell, and you can add your charisma twice to a single instance of fire damage.
The problem with your first hypothetical is, as The_Ace_of_Rogues pointed out, that you were trying to stack effects that are not simultaneously applicable, as well as an effect that does not exist under the rules as written.
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ModeratorEven in this scenario (which again isn’t possible because that’s not how MI works), you would have to choose which version of the spell to cast and thus which bonus applies. A single cast wouldn’t qualify for all these bonuses.
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So, its a kind of partial success.
Yeah, I get that initial example was a tad extreme. and broken. and not workable.
But there can be some synergy between lock and sorcerer adding damage bonuses together, if they both apply.
(I still think amethyst draconic sorcerer might work, but its only adding CHA once on the Eldritch Blast spell, not once for each individual beam)
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
There are mechanical reasons behind the exclusion of Amethyst Dragon.
Force damage is intentionally balanced around how rarely it is resisted - neither monsters nor players tend to get resistance to force damage. Allowing access to Draconic Amethyst Soul would give players a damage boost with a damage type nearly no monsters can resist. More importantly, however, it would also give players access to a resistance they are not really supposed to have, which therefore gives them resistance against monster attacks and spells intentionally designed with “players will almost certainly not resist this” in mind during the design stage.
I am not sure those are the most game breaking effects in the world (damage is, often, the least important thing in a well designed combat), but they are game design considerations Wizards almost certainly takes into account when designing and limiting abilities.
Amethyst Dragonborn are literally in, with guidelines for making characters, in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons, a 5e book.
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
And they're literally not listed as an option for the Draconic Sorcerer that was printed in the 2024 PHB, after Fizban's was published. It was a deliberate exclusion.
Well that's a tad redundant. 2024 is backwards compatible.
All books are compatible with the exception of the 2014e versions of the PHB, MM & DMG.
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ModeratorIt’s a moot point either way. The existence of a gem dragonborn or of gem dragons themselves still doesn’t guarantee you’d be able to select gem dragons as your sorcerer’s draconic ancestry.
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That's not how the compatibility works. The existence of Gem Dragons and Time Dragons and on and on doesn't mean you can grab their element and apply it to something like the Draconic Sorcerer subclass on your own initiative as a player. You can have a Gem Dragonborn PC that is then built using content from the 2024 PHB. You can use the Drakewarden or Way of the Ascendant Dragon subclasses with the 2024 Ranger or Monk (and note that neither gives you gem elements to play with for their features). You as a player cannot declare that your Draconic Sorcerer picks a gem dragon element for their 6th level feature- those are not listed as an option and there is no existing feature that expressly allows for a substitution.
"Hay DM, I want to play a gem dragonborn, or a variant human gem dragon descendant, and use their element for their draconic sorcerer class, that okay"?
"Yeah, but once you pick it, you're stuck with it. No switching to fire later cos there are more fire spells".
And that's how that conversation goes.
Anyway, there are other much more fun options. For example, Emerald dragonborn do psychic dragon, get to level 6 as draconic sorcerer for the psychic damage boost, then go bard, for a 'killer' Vicious Mockery.
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ModeratorSure, but a question about whether something is possible doesn’t serve much purpose if you’re just going to change the rules to make it possible regardless.
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This is in reply to GuyrixSterling, I cannot be bothered to fuss about with the awkward quote system, so I'm just copy-pasting.
"Lets say I start a character as a warlock, and pick up agonising blast, so I get to add CHA bonuses to Eldritch blast."
2014 Rules - Agonising Blast will add +Cha bonus to all damage rolls of any cast of Eldritch Blast.
2024 Rules - Agonising Blast will add +Cha bonus to all damage rolls of Eldritch Blast when cast as a Warlock spell. If any feature grants the spell as something other than a Warlock spell, the bonus cannot be applied.
"I then get level 6 as a draconic sorcerer, child of an Amethyst dragon, so I can add CHA bonuses to force damage."
No such feature exists in official 5th Edition rules.
"I then get up to level 11 as an evoker mage, adding INT bonuses to evocation damage."
The feature you're referring to is Level 10 - Empowered Evocation and only applies to Wizard spells. No official feature exists, to my knowledge, that allows taking Eldritch Blast as a Wizard spell.
"And just for a laugh, find some weirdo priest class thats all about physical or raw magic damage, so I can add my WIS in too."
Does not exist in official 5th Edition rules.
So, no, these bonuses cannot be stacked.
"Theres not really any reason to disallow an amethyst draconic sorcerer. There are amethyst dragonborn (in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons), and force spells in every level, and so on. if a DM allows it, why not. "
There is a reason: it is not within the rules. Some DMs, especially new ones, prefer sticking to the rules because it less of a headache to keep things balanced. Force damage is the least resisted damage type compared to the elemental damages. Agonising Eldritch Blast is already very strong within the official rules, it should not be buffed even more through homebrew - it will get very unbalanced.
"if a DM allows it, why not"
Pointless to discuss things from this view. If this was a "as a DM would you allow it?" sure, but that's not what you've asked. A DM can allow or disallow anything they want. A DM could allow you a cantrip that does 2,000,000 force damage if they want. If you have a DM already allowing it, this thread serves no purpose. This thread isn't asking if we, as a DM, would allow it, and so the only use of this thread is discussing actual rules. By actual rules, this would not work. And that answer is no. Should a DM allow this? Up to personal DMs. For me it's a no. It's insanely unbalanced and I don't need that stress or headache in my life.
"As for wizard and cleric (and sorcerer), you could possibly take the magic initiate feat, like with each class, and each one takes Eldritch blast as a cantrip."
The Magic Initiate does not change which class the spell is considered to be. If you chose Magic Initiate: Warlock, the spell remains a Warlock spell so would not count as a Wizard spell (so, no Empowered Evocation stacking). In 2024 version of this feat, warlock spells can't be taken at all - specifically to prevent taking eldritch blast.
"For example, similar question. Celestial Warlock (bonus fire and radiant damage), plus Red/Gold/Brass Draconic sorcerer (bonus fire damage)."
The bonus fron Dragon Sorc applies to any spell that does the chosen damage type regardless of how the spell is cast. It can apply to spells cast through feats, other classes and even magic items. The Celestial's Radiant Soul feature works the same way for Fire and Radiant damage. So yes, these stack. Not only that but under 2024 Warlock rules you can select any Warlock cantrip for Agonising Blast, which can include Fire Bolt, so you can combine Agonising Blast, Radiant Soul and Dragon's Affinity for x3 cha mod bonus (1d10 + cha mod + cha mod + cha mod, if your cha mod was +5 that's 1d10+15 fire damage).
Unlike Eldritch Blast, elemental damage cantrips having stacking bonuses isn't unbalanced - they're the most resisted damage types (fire, in particular) and only has a single damage roll to apply the bonuses to, instead of E-Blast that can apply the bonuses to multiple rolls.
Think of it like this, to showcase the difference in balancing:
Even with the stacking and max level the Firebolt will deal 4d10+15 fire damage, so between 19-55 damage, and is the most common resisted elemental damage. And getting this requires heavy multiclassing so no end-game capstone features and at least one less feat.
Eldritch Blast + just Agonising Blast is 4d10+20 , 24-60, force damage - the least resisted damage type in D&D. And doesn't require any multiclassing or loss of other features.
Absolutely massive difference. This is why the rules don't allow such stacking with Eldritch Blast. It would be very broken.
"Amethyst Dragonborn are literally in, with guidelines for making characters, in Fizbans Treasury of Dragons, a 5e book."
As a race/species choice, not as a subclass choice - for balancing reasons, as explained.
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They are not going to put references in to optional books. They never have. It is fair to say that the lack of an option being listed in Fizban's is noteworthy, but not that there is a lack of a reference to Fizban's dragons in the 2024 PHB.
It is not any sort of wild stretch though for any given DM to allow it. Simply assuming that this was any sort of carefully thought out choice on the part of the Devs is just that, at best an assumption. It is RAW that they are not an option but that does not mean it would therefore be imbalanced to allow otherwise.