So while a fun idea, its too much? I don't have it bought yet, didn't have the budget for it this month. That said at what point do you think it can stay the same and what points need to be pulled back.
That's a tricky question.
The main issue is that the Pugilist is not balanced against other martial classes. It steals the best part of all the other martial classes and increases their effectiveness. Will this be fun? For the person playing the Pugilist, yes. For any other martial in the party, no. Dungeon Masters will have a problem because it's their job to make sure everyone else is having a good time (well, the whole table is responsible for this, but the DM is the quarterback here).
How can this get fixed? If you're playing a game where the Pugilist is the only martial then there is nothing to fix. The game will likely run just fine. The DM can fix any balance issues on the fly. But I don't think the Pugilist can be balanced against other martials without completely re-writing the class.
Edit: I guess Rogues are considered martial but the Pugilist doesn't really steal anything from the Rogue. So a Rogue and a Pugilist can probably play fine together. I was mostly thinking of the Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk when I said "martial" classes.
Interesting. My first one-shot consists so far of an Eldritch Knight, a Barbarian of some sort and a rogue/sorcerer,. The EK is our usual Dungeon Master and the Barbarian is the potential Pugilist’s dad, so I don’t think that deep down they will have a problem with it, but in many ways I will if the encounter falls appart. I’ve been advised not to let anyone play classes that aren’t part of the core rules, and I’m strongly considering it. Then again, I may just wait and hope they either do not purchase it or choose not to use it for whatever reason.
It basically can just do too much. Resistance, extra attacks, extra damage, extra hp, skill check boosts, and on top of that, you take damage and you can recover all your Moxi points (ki) that turn.
So in our group with a Barbarian (Berserker), Paladin (Devotion), Pugilist (Sweet Science) and a (Glamor) Bard the Pugilist is just ok. The Barbarian out damages him and has similar survivability, the Paladin is on par, usually with a little more damage. The pugilist is great at taking a hit, ok AC, Damage on par with a Fighter utility is average. They are better than a monk, but that is about it. Pugilist subclasses don't really add damage where all other martial classes do.
So in our group with a Barbarian (Berserker), Paladin (Devotion), Pugilist (Sweet Science) and a (Glamor) Bard the Pugilist is just ok. The Barbarian out damages him and has similar survivability, the Paladin is on par, usually with a little more damage. The pugilist is great at taking a hit, ok AC, Damage on par with a Fighter utility is average. They are better than a monk, but that is about it. Pugilist subclasses don't really add damage where all other martial classes do.
This is interesting. It doesn't match up with what I've seen so far but neither myself or anybody I know is running one in a real-life campaign. I've personally only done one-shots at levels 3-5.
I find the damage output to be "excellent" compared to other classes at this level. I pretty much always run a "Squared-Circle" subclass. At level 3 my guy does 3d8+9 on his turn... less in round 1, but usually more on all the following rounds. It looks like this:
Round 1: Attack Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop), Bonus Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop)
Round 2+: Compression Lock (Automatic 1d8+3 to every person I still have Grappled... often both with Inescapable). Attack Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop), Bonus Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop). These attacks are often made with Advantage due to Prone. Sometimes they will escape 1 of your conditions, using Stop and Drop is free so it doesn't hurt to use even if they already have at least one condition.
This does not take into account you can always use a Moxie for One-Two Punch which adds yet another Unarmed attack on your Bonus Action which can use Stop and Drop as well... in case somebody made a save in the first 2 attacks. Of course, condition saves are always a factor but this class dishes out so many that even when saves are made your opponents still have problems.
At level 5 the damage goes up to a d10, you get an extra attack, and you get Haymaker which essentially makes most of your damage rolls always be max (considering you are often attacking with advantage you will likely hit and get your Moxie refunded).
And let's not forget Opportunity Attacks, again using Stop and Drop as needed. You can only Grapple two creatures at a time, but if you are preventing somebody from reaching your casters the Grapple speed reduction to 0 is nice... or the Prone taking half their movement to stand again.
This is a LOT of damage and even more utility. I don't think any other classes can apply this amount of Conditions in one turn (without an AOE). I don't see how a Fighter can come close to this at level 3. Really, I don't think a Barbarian can do this either.
But again, I haven't used the boxer variant or played in a campaign.
Edit: I just looked at the Sweet Science and it's damage and utility is way less then Squared Circle. It gets a crit on 19 and 20, which is ok but not something I would call consistent. It's other ability is a Reaction that costs un-refundable Moxie to use and is mostly defense. Bleh. But I can see the attraction of pretending your are Cassius Clay or Rocky Balboa. Evidently the class authors are more fans of UFC than boxing.
It basically can just do too much. Resistance, extra attacks, extra damage, extra hp, skill check boosts, and on top of that, you take damage and you can recover all your Moxi points (ki) that turn.
It does too much, or do other martials do too little?
Fighter is straight forward, but loses momentum the moment an action has to be used for something other than attack. Rouge gets to play with positions and most subclasses have options. Which leaves Monk….. which has clear problems with action economy when the key points run out.
Pugilist looks broken because it scales AND has options…… which is why wizard is broken, because it has options from a massive spell list.
So in short pugilist is a little overtuned, but is closer to where martials should be without massive feat investment. Thats the teal problem. And freeing up feats means players can take a wider range of feats without it feeling wasted or dangerously suboptimal.
We started at lvl 3 and are now lvl 7. Combats are usually 3-5 rounds long with 3-5 per day and 1 short rest, maybe 2. Our pugilist doesn't use haymaker all that often and our barbarian is usually triggering great weapon master 3/4 or 2/3 of the time.
Grappling being something you can do as well as an attack, rather than instead of an attack, makes it a viable option for me.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
We started at lvl 3 and are now lvl 7. Combats are usually 3-5 rounds long with 3-5 per day and 1 short rest, maybe 2. Our pugilist doesn't use haymaker all that often and our barbarian is usually triggering great weapon master 3/4 or 2/3 of the time.
He may not like to grapple because he is a boxer, so that's cool... it fits the vibe. But he should still be knocking stuff prone since it's free to try with Heavy Hitter. If something is Prone then you get advantage when attacking it. If you have advantage then Haymaker seems an obvious choice as it will more than likely not consume a moxi point in order to do max damage.
Please keep in mind I am doing as much maximizing as I can. That's just how I play. If your table runs more casual and doesn't really concern itself with optimal play I totally understand. However, if that's the case I wouldn't say the class is fine because it's not even close to balanced compared to other martials.
And to those that say this is closer to what a martial class should be I am not arguing that point. You might be right. But we should compare this class against other martials as they are. That's where this class falls as over-powered.
We started at lvl 3 and are now lvl 7. Combats are usually 3-5 rounds long with 3-5 per day and 1 short rest, maybe 2. Our pugilist doesn't use haymaker all that often and our barbarian is usually triggering great weapon master 3/4 or 2/3 of the time.
He may not like to grapple because he is a boxer, so that's cool... it fits the vibe. But he should still be knocking stuff prone since it's free to try with Heavy Hitter. If something is Prone then you get advantage when attacking it. If you have advantage then Haymaker seems an obvious choice as it will more than likely not consume a moxi point in order to do max damage.
Please keep in mind I am doing as much maximizing as I can. That's just how I play. If your table runs more casual and doesn't really concern itself with optimal play I totally understand. However, if that's the case I wouldn't say the class is fine because it's not even close to balanced compared to other martials.
And to those that say this is closer to what a martial class should be I am not arguing that point. You might be right. But we should compare this class against other martials as they are. That's where this class falls as over-powered.
It's only perceived as overpowered compared to other martials because it has options, something 5e players aren't used to with martials.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
We started at lvl 3 and are now lvl 7. Combats are usually 3-5 rounds long with 3-5 per day and 1 short rest, maybe 2. Our pugilist doesn't use haymaker all that often and our barbarian is usually triggering great weapon master 3/4 or 2/3 of the time.
He may not like to grapple because he is a boxer, so that's cool... it fits the vibe. But he should still be knocking stuff prone since it's free to try with Heavy Hitter. If something is Prone then you get advantage when attacking it. If you have advantage then Haymaker seems an obvious choice as it will more than likely not consume a moxi point in order to do max damage.
Please keep in mind I am doing as much maximizing as I can. That's just how I play. If your table runs more casual and doesn't really concern itself with optimal play I totally understand. However, if that's the case I wouldn't say the class is fine because it's not even close to balanced compared to other martials.
And to those that say this is closer to what a martial class should be I am not arguing that point. You might be right. But we should compare this class against other martials as they are. That's where this class falls as over-powered.
We are a mix of optimized and not. So we expect to have two maybe 3 combats before a short rest so our moxi of 4 is about what to expect to spend during a combat. Then he usually (always) keeps one for cross counter so that leaves him with 3 moxi to spend on buffing damage. Yes, he almost always has advantage but with so few moxi haymaker still feels like a gamble. Thanks to GWM he out damages the Pugilist, but it would also out damage them with a dual wielder or a polearm master. Now once you get down but not out moxi becomes a moot point so yeah i would expect him to do nothing but haymakers or at least 2 or so per round instead of one ever other round.
I still say that the Barbarian and Paladin are the best martials, the pugilist is tied with the fighter probably a little better than the fighter until you look at the variety of magical weapons available along with weapon feats. The rogue can be good but tbh the rogue monk and ranger all fall off with combat but also have lots more tricks and utility so it is hard to judge.
I only just purchased the Pugilist book so I've only skimmed it. Personally, I believe that the folks who are saying that other Martials should be improved instead of Pugilists being nerfed have the right of it. A bog-standard Fighter that isn't the Battle Master has too few options IMHO. Barbarians even more so. Rangers are caught somewhere in the middle because the Devs have no idea what they want to be.
At first glance, I thought some of the features were OP. However, when you think about some of the threats a party faces, especially in high-level play, a Martial needs benefits like higher damage and survivability that don't come from another character's buffs.
As always, the goal should be fun. All of us have seen a character in a book or movie do something spectacular and wished that we could run them in a game. As far as most fight movies are concerned, the Pugilist has it covered.
That's a thing I'm running into--my players are all anime fans--Their first characters were built around Invincible, the second campaign it was DBZ. No one has built a plasmoid monk based on...something I'm clearly too old to understand. :) But they are constantly wanting to do house rules that will basically let them do cartoon nonsense and I'm no, you aren't doing Goku stuff at level 3.
Ngl from what iv played the class isnt broken it just shows how much weaker the other martials are. Sad fact is the class still doesnt stand up (mid to late game) to full casters which are still the majority of classes
That's a tricky question.
The main issue is that the Pugilist is not balanced against other martial classes. It steals the best part of all the other martial classes and increases their effectiveness. Will this be fun? For the person playing the Pugilist, yes. For any other martial in the party, no. Dungeon Masters will have a problem because it's their job to make sure everyone else is having a good time (well, the whole table is responsible for this, but the DM is the quarterback here).
How can this get fixed? If you're playing a game where the Pugilist is the only martial then there is nothing to fix. The game will likely run just fine. The DM can fix any balance issues on the fly. But I don't think the Pugilist can be balanced against other martials without completely re-writing the class.
Edit: I guess Rogues are considered martial but the Pugilist doesn't really steal anything from the Rogue. So a Rogue and a Pugilist can probably play fine together. I was mostly thinking of the Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk when I said "martial" classes.
Interesting. My first one-shot consists so far of an Eldritch Knight, a Barbarian of some sort and a rogue/sorcerer,. The EK is our usual Dungeon Master and the Barbarian is the potential Pugilist’s dad, so I don’t think that deep down they will have a problem with it, but in many ways I will if the encounter falls appart. I’ve been advised not to let anyone play classes that aren’t part of the core rules, and I’m strongly considering it. Then again, I may just wait and hope they either do not purchase it or choose not to use it for whatever reason.
It basically can just do too much. Resistance, extra attacks, extra damage, extra hp, skill check boosts, and on top of that, you take damage and you can recover all your Moxi points (ki) that turn.
I agree. It's going to take a major overhaul.
What background would be good for this in 2014 edition. I'm testing for it, not using masteries.
Not sure what you're asking?
So in our group with a Barbarian (Berserker), Paladin (Devotion), Pugilist (Sweet Science) and a (Glamor) Bard the Pugilist is just ok. The Barbarian out damages him and has similar survivability, the Paladin is on par, usually with a little more damage. The pugilist is great at taking a hit, ok AC, Damage on par with a Fighter utility is average. They are better than a monk, but that is about it. Pugilist subclasses don't really add damage where all other martial classes do.
what levels are you operating at, if I can ask?
This is interesting. It doesn't match up with what I've seen so far but neither myself or anybody I know is running one in a real-life campaign. I've personally only done one-shots at levels 3-5.
I find the damage output to be "excellent" compared to other classes at this level. I pretty much always run a "Squared-Circle" subclass. At level 3 my guy does 3d8+9 on his turn... less in round 1, but usually more on all the following rounds. It looks like this:
Round 1: Attack Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop), Bonus Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop)
Round 2+: Compression Lock (Automatic 1d8+3 to every person I still have Grappled... often both with Inescapable). Attack Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop), Bonus Action 1d8+3 (Stop and Drop). These attacks are often made with Advantage due to Prone. Sometimes they will escape 1 of your conditions, using Stop and Drop is free so it doesn't hurt to use even if they already have at least one condition.
This does not take into account you can always use a Moxie for One-Two Punch which adds yet another Unarmed attack on your Bonus Action which can use Stop and Drop as well... in case somebody made a save in the first 2 attacks. Of course, condition saves are always a factor but this class dishes out so many that even when saves are made your opponents still have problems.
At level 5 the damage goes up to a d10, you get an extra attack, and you get Haymaker which essentially makes most of your damage rolls always be max (considering you are often attacking with advantage you will likely hit and get your Moxie refunded).
And let's not forget Opportunity Attacks, again using Stop and Drop as needed. You can only Grapple two creatures at a time, but if you are preventing somebody from reaching your casters the Grapple speed reduction to 0 is nice... or the Prone taking half their movement to stand again.
This is a LOT of damage and even more utility. I don't think any other classes can apply this amount of Conditions in one turn (without an AOE). I don't see how a Fighter can come close to this at level 3. Really, I don't think a Barbarian can do this either.
But again, I haven't used the boxer variant or played in a campaign.
Edit: I just looked at the Sweet Science and it's damage and utility is way less then Squared Circle. It gets a crit on 19 and 20, which is ok but not something I would call consistent. It's other ability is a Reaction that costs un-refundable Moxie to use and is mostly defense. Bleh. But I can see the attraction of pretending your are Cassius Clay or Rocky Balboa. Evidently the class authors are more fans of UFC than boxing.
It does too much, or do other martials do too little?
Fighter is straight forward, but loses momentum the moment an action has to be used for something other than attack. Rouge gets to play with positions and most subclasses have options. Which leaves Monk….. which has clear problems with action economy when the key points run out.
Pugilist looks broken because it scales AND has options…… which is why wizard is broken, because it has options from a massive spell list.
So in short pugilist is a little overtuned, but is closer to where martials should be without massive feat investment. Thats the teal problem. And freeing up feats means players can take a wider range of feats without it feeling wasted or dangerously suboptimal.
We started at lvl 3 and are now lvl 7. Combats are usually 3-5 rounds long with 3-5 per day and 1 short rest, maybe 2. Our pugilist doesn't use haymaker all that often and our barbarian is usually triggering great weapon master 3/4 or 2/3 of the time.
See none of us are fans of grappling so that one is almost always just ignored by me and my group as a possibility.
Grappling being something you can do as well as an attack, rather than instead of an attack, makes it a viable option for me.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
He may not like to grapple because he is a boxer, so that's cool... it fits the vibe. But he should still be knocking stuff prone since it's free to try with Heavy Hitter. If something is Prone then you get advantage when attacking it. If you have advantage then Haymaker seems an obvious choice as it will more than likely not consume a moxi point in order to do max damage.
Please keep in mind I am doing as much maximizing as I can. That's just how I play. If your table runs more casual and doesn't really concern itself with optimal play I totally understand. However, if that's the case I wouldn't say the class is fine because it's not even close to balanced compared to other martials.
And to those that say this is closer to what a martial class should be I am not arguing that point. You might be right. But we should compare this class against other martials as they are. That's where this class falls as over-powered.
It's only perceived as overpowered compared to other martials because it has options, something 5e players aren't used to with martials.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
We are a mix of optimized and not. So we expect to have two maybe 3 combats before a short rest so our moxi of 4 is about what to expect to spend during a combat. Then he usually (always) keeps one for cross counter so that leaves him with 3 moxi to spend on buffing damage. Yes, he almost always has advantage but with so few moxi haymaker still feels like a gamble. Thanks to GWM he out damages the Pugilist, but it would also out damage them with a dual wielder or a polearm master. Now once you get down but not out moxi becomes a moot point so yeah i would expect him to do nothing but haymakers or at least 2 or so per round instead of one ever other round.
I still say that the Barbarian and Paladin are the best martials, the pugilist is tied with the fighter probably a little better than the fighter until you look at the variety of magical weapons available along with weapon feats. The rogue can be good but tbh the rogue monk and ranger all fall off with combat but also have lots more tricks and utility so it is hard to judge.
I only just purchased the Pugilist book so I've only skimmed it. Personally, I believe that the folks who are saying that other Martials should be improved instead of Pugilists being nerfed have the right of it. A bog-standard Fighter that isn't the Battle Master has too few options IMHO. Barbarians even more so. Rangers are caught somewhere in the middle because the Devs have no idea what they want to be.
At first glance, I thought some of the features were OP. However, when you think about some of the threats a party faces, especially in high-level play, a Martial needs benefits like higher damage and survivability that don't come from another character's buffs.
As always, the goal should be fun. All of us have seen a character in a book or movie do something spectacular and wished that we could run them in a game. As far as most fight movies are concerned, the Pugilist has it covered.
That's a thing I'm running into--my players are all anime fans--Their first characters were built around Invincible, the second campaign it was DBZ. No one has built a plasmoid monk based on...something I'm clearly too old to understand. :) But they are constantly wanting to do house rules that will basically let them do cartoon nonsense and I'm no, you aren't doing Goku stuff at level 3.
Ngl from what iv played the class isnt broken it just shows how much weaker the other martials are. Sad fact is the class still doesnt stand up (mid to late game) to full casters which are still the majority of classes
WOTC needs to buff other martials to be at this level and give more versatility to these classes without any.