Basically the title, but for more context. I think warlock should be like paladins in the sense that they receive a subclass feature at lvl 20 instead of some generic (and rather weak) feature. I'm thinking about doing this as an optional rule at the table I run but would like to hear thoughts on this.
Well that would break the pattern that WoTC went out of their way to overlay on warlock, because in 2014 it worked differently, as did many other classes from many other classes.
So instead of "Eldritch master" which can be pretty potent, I take it you are wanting something like "The Mouth of *Patron*" where you speak or can be spoken through by your patron or something themed like that and it has different effect based on your Patron?
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Just to be clear you think getting all your slots back is weak for a warlock? Seriously?
It's definitely not weak, but I can certainly see the argument that it's not very interesting, and that something that brings in more unique flavor from the subclass might be more interesting.
A lot of people (sites) agree with him. Part of the reason is we already get an ability all the way back at level 2 that does half as much but scales. If anything, maybe they should just adjust this to scale at level 20 and give us a new capstone.
As far as a subclass specific one, I will say it seems a little bit unfair to the other classes, but on the other I don’t think such a thing should get in the way of creativity and good (sub)class design.
As far as what they should be regardless instead of what they are currently… that I don’t know.
Personally, I think all classes should have subclass capstones at high levels, like 17, 18, or 20. 14th level is really kind of low for a subclass capstone, especially for Warlocks.
Just to be clear you think getting all your slots back is weak for a warlock? Seriously?
It's definitely not weak, but I can certainly see the argument that it's not very interesting, and that something that brings in more unique flavor from the subclass might be more interesting.
Ok, I can see how it is maybe not interesting. But weak threw me.
If you think being able to spend your entire slot repertoire in one battle and re-upping it in a minute is weak, your campaigns must have been very short on encounters per day and/or generous with rests.
Their are 2 spells that get you a short rest in 10 minutes. One is 2nd level, one is 3rd level. So yeah I think reupping 4 whole slots for a capstone is weak. Especially since you got 2 back 1 level earlier. Assuming normal short rests on top of that makes it even weaker.
It's essentially, you get two extra spells cast per day.
It's not nothing. It's not ground-shaking either.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well that would break the pattern that WoTC went out of their way to overlay on warlock, because in 2014 it worked differently, as did many other classes from many other classes.
So instead of "Eldritch master" which can be pretty potent, I take it you are wanting something like "The Mouth of *Patron*" where you speak or can be spoken through by your patron or something themed like that and it has different effect based on your Patron?
Well that would break the pattern that WoTC went out of their way to overlay on warlock, because in 2014 it worked differently, as did many other classes from many other classes.
So instead of "Eldritch master" which can be pretty potent, I take it you are wanting something like "The Mouth of *Patron*" where you speak or can be spoken through by your patron or something themed like that and it has different effect based on your Patron?
What is Mouth of the Patron?
I think the word "like" was meaning more "for example" than "similar to other existing thing".
Well that would break the pattern that WoTC went out of their way to overlay on warlock, because in 2014 it worked differently, as did many other classes from many other classes.
So instead of "Eldritch master" which can be pretty potent, I take it you are wanting something like "The Mouth of *Patron*" where you speak or can be spoken through by your patron or something themed like that and it has different effect based on your Patron?
What is Mouth of the Patron?
The hypothetical name for a feature that would be an example of what the op was suggesting.
If your patron was Hadar it would "Mouth of Hadar" or "Voice of Hadar" that sort of thing.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Their are 2 spells that get you a short rest in 10 minutes. One is 2nd level, one is 3rd level. So yeah I think reupping 4 whole slots for a capstone is weak. Especially since you got 2 back 1 level earlier. Assuming normal short rests on top of that makes it even weaker.
And when was the last time you saw someone actually use either spell?
It's essentially, you get two extra spells cast per day.
It's not nothing. It's not ground-shaking either.
Sure its not nothing, but I think all capstones need to ask would you be better off going to level 20 in your class or taking a level 1 dip. About 1/2 the classes in the PH warlock included the answer is level 1 dip and by a large margin. That imo makes it a crap capstone that is weak and lame. It may not be nothing, but its not a good capstone. With a warlock you should be getting 1 or 2 short rests already, you will have 6th-9th level spells as well, you get 4 casts, a strong cantrip or pact of the blade. If you are in a party with marignal teamwork you will haver a solid chance at 1=2 10 minute short rests. You already get 1/2 the capstone at level 2, so basically the capstone is a level 2 ability but you get to use it twice not once. With all those factors its just not good.
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Basically the title, but for more context. I think warlock should be like paladins in the sense that they receive a subclass feature at lvl 20 instead of some generic (and rather weak) feature. I'm thinking about doing this as an optional rule at the table I run but would like to hear thoughts on this.
That is an awesome feature, you get all 4 spell slots back. That is not generic, but you do you.
Well that would break the pattern that WoTC went out of their way to overlay on warlock, because in 2014 it worked differently, as did many other classes from many other classes.
So instead of "Eldritch master" which can be pretty potent, I take it you are wanting something like "The Mouth of *Patron*" where you speak or can be spoken through by your patron or something themed like that and it has different effect based on your Patron?
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Just to be clear you think getting all your slots back is weak for a warlock? Seriously?
It's definitely not weak, but I can certainly see the argument that it's not very interesting, and that something that brings in more unique flavor from the subclass might be more interesting.
pronouns: he/she/they
A lot of people (sites) agree with him. Part of the reason is we already get an ability all the way back at level 2 that does half as much but scales. If anything, maybe they should just adjust this to scale at level 20 and give us a new capstone.
As far as a subclass specific one, I will say it seems a little bit unfair to the other classes, but on the other I don’t think such a thing should get in the way of creativity and good (sub)class design.
As far as what they should be regardless instead of what they are currently… that I don’t know.
Personally, I think all classes should have subclass capstones at high levels, like 17, 18, or 20. 14th level is really kind of low for a subclass capstone, especially for Warlocks.
But that would be pinching from other class(Artificer in Exploring Eberron)es' bits, I thought we were against that /gen
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Ok, I can see how it is maybe not interesting. But weak threw me.
It was lame and weak in 2014 in 2024 when you get 1/2 of that at level 2 it is pathetic.
Move the current capstone to level 18, level 20 you now upcast pact spells to 7th level spells.
If you think being able to spend your entire slot repertoire in one battle and re-upping it in a minute is weak, your campaigns must have been very short on encounters per day and/or generous with rests.
Their are 2 spells that get you a short rest in 10 minutes. One is 2nd level, one is 3rd level. So yeah I think reupping 4 whole slots for a capstone is weak. Especially since you got 2 back 1 level earlier. Assuming normal short rests on top of that makes it even weaker.
It's essentially, you get two extra spells cast per day.
It's not nothing. It's not ground-shaking either.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
What is Mouth of the Patron?
I think the word "like" was meaning more "for example" than "similar to other existing thing".
The hypothetical name for a feature that would be an example of what the op was suggesting.
If your patron was Hadar it would "Mouth of Hadar" or "Voice of Hadar" that sort of thing.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
And when was the last time you saw someone actually use either spell?
Every time short rest classes were in the party.
Sure its not nothing, but I think all capstones need to ask would you be better off going to level 20 in your class or taking a level 1 dip. About 1/2 the classes in the PH warlock included the answer is level 1 dip and by a large margin. That imo makes it a crap capstone that is weak and lame. It may not be nothing, but its not a good capstone. With a warlock you should be getting 1 or 2 short rests already, you will have 6th-9th level spells as well, you get 4 casts, a strong cantrip or pact of the blade. If you are in a party with marignal teamwork you will haver a solid chance at 1=2 10 minute short rests. You already get 1/2 the capstone at level 2, so basically the capstone is a level 2 ability but you get to use it twice not once. With all those factors its just not good.