Whetstone and Chalk

Yes there are other ways to accomplish the task, but to remove these items seems silly to me.  It means new players do not see it on the list and therefor do not know to consider having it.  "Bloat on the tables" seems like an excuse to me.  

Quote from Moxys >>

Yes there are other ways to accomplish the task, but to remove these items seems silly to me.  It means new players do not see it on the list and therefor do not know to consider having it.  "Bloat on the tables" seems like an excuse to me.  

 When table bloat costs words and space on a page to print... it is not an excuse it is a decision. Books cost money, printing costs money, they have to decide what is important for a player to read in the book. They decided that things like spoons, mess kits, chalk were common enough that people might just think of it and not need it spelled out.

"It means new players do not see it on the list and therefor do not know to consider having it." - is just as much an excuse as you claim saying table bloat is.

My current table was mostly new players, and they constant ask for things not in the book that I have had to figure out. Do I wish that the publishers made a "Tea Pouch" or "Headshot(As in the picture)" entry? No I roll with my players and give them what they need.

If you're going to complain about table bloat, there are a ton of things in the equipment table that are bloat, because they aren't things PCs will actually buy as equipment. Going through the list for things that are in there that are at least as much a waste of space as chalk:

• Barrel: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Basket: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Bottle, Glass: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Bucket: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed (a lot of places where a bucket would be useful... already contain a bucket).
• Candle: candles are dungeon dressing. PCs carry torches or lanterns.
• Case, Crossbow Bolt: case weight, like sheath weight, should be included in the weight of what it's meant to contain.
• Chest: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Clothes, Fine and Clothes, Traveler's: clothing should just be assumed most of the time, and if listed, is a lifestyle expense.
• Costume: the way you get a costume is you buy or steal clothes appropriate to the costume. Just list it under disguise kit.
• Flask: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Ink and Ink Pen: should be listed as part of the Calligrapher's Kit and Cartographer's Kit, not separate.
• Jug: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Ladder: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed, as they are way too inconvenient to lug around all the time.
• Lock: Locks are problems the PCs have to solve when going through a dungeon, not PC equipment.
• Paper and Parchment: these are raw materials for crafting.
• Perfume: should be treated like fine clothes -- it's a lifestyle expense and probably doesn't have a mechanical effect other than announcing your status.
• Pot, Iron: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Quiver: quiver weight, like sheath weight, should be included in the weight of what it's meant to contain.
• Robe: see Clothes.
• Sack: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Shovel: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed, as they are way too inconvenient to lug around all the time.
• String: On a par with chalk.
• Vial: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

If you're going to complain about table bloat, there are a ton of things in the equipment table that are bloat, because they aren't things PCs will actually buy as equipment. Going through the list for things that are in there that are at least as much a waste of space as chalk:

• Barrel: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Basket: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Bottle, Glass: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Bucket: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed (a lot of places where a bucket would be useful... already contain a bucket).
• Candle: candles are dungeon dressing. PCs carry torches or lanterns.
• Case, Crossbow Bolt: case weight, like sheath weight, should be included in the weight of what it's meant to contain.
• Chest: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Clothes, Fine and [Tooltip Not Found]: clothing should just be assumed most of the time, and if listed, is a lifestyle expense.
• Costume: the way you get a costume is you buy or steal clothes appropriate to the costume. Just list it under disguise kit.
• Flask: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Ink and Ink Pen: should be listed as part of the Calligrapher's Kit and Cartographer's Kit, not separate.
• Jug: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Ladder: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed, as they are way too inconvenient to lug around all the time.
• Lock: Locks are problems the PCs have to solve when going through a dungeon, not PC equipment.
• Paper and Parchment: these are raw materials for crafting.
• Perfume: should be treated like fine clothes -- it's a lifestyle expense and probably doesn't have a mechanical effect other than announcing your status.
• Pot, Iron: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Quiver: quiver weight, like sheath weight, should be included in the weight of what it's meant to contain.
• Robe: see Clothes.
• Sack: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.
• Shovel: Occasionally useful, but PCs will generally rely on finding them when needed, as they are way too inconvenient to lug around all the time.
• String: On a par with chalk.
• Vial: This is a Storage Container. It is reasonably likely to appear as dungeon dressing and contain valuables, but not be something the PCs will buy empty.

 Ink & Ink Pens aren't just for those kits. Wizards need the Ink Pens, at least.

Also, you might want to post 5.5 item bloat, too.

Quote from MaedraDawnkeeper >>

 Ink & Ink Pens aren't just for those kits. Wizards need the Ink Pens, at least.

Also, you might want to post 5.5 item bloat, too.

 Oh, is it items rather than item? That was from the 5.5 list. And no, wizards don't need ink pens -- just abstract it into the materials required to scribe a page, pens are in fact consumables.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from MaedraDawnkeeper >>

 Ink & Ink Pens aren't just for those kits. Wizards need the Ink Pens, at least.

Also, you might want to post 5.5 item bloat, too.

 Oh, is it items rather than item? That was from the 5.5 list. And no, wizards don't need ink pens -- just abstract it into the materials required to scribe a page, pens are in fact consumables.

 You posted the ones from 5e, not 5.5e

Quote from MaedraDawnkeeper >>

 You posted the ones from 5e, not 5.5e

Just the wrong tooltip markup. Fixed now. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from MaedraDawnkeeper >>

 You posted the ones from 5e, not 5.5e

Just the wrong tooltip markup. Fixed now. 

 What's supposed to be there where the [Tooltip Not Found] is?

 Traveler's Clothes. Just me typoing.

If you want your players to think and avoid table bloat, then make them come up with justifications as to why they would have something to mark with.
You can even do this with an NPC to show them. 'The mage apprentice you have been escorting marks the tree with an arrow using the ink from his scribe's kit. "Sorry, i never could get the hang of Prestidigitation" he says sheepishly.' This puts the idea of marking the environment with things, and even folks like a rouge with no craftsmen proficiency can get the spark of "I can make marks in the tree with my dagger" or the ranger saying "I find a soft sedimentary rock that I can mark harder surfaces" ( what kids called a 'Chalkrock' in the 90s. They usually weren't chalk) or a million other creative things.

It is one of the things that led to the 'if you can justify why you have x small thing, you can have it, just remember it' which is a more creative take on 'you just have it.'

Some of your players might even be honest and creative enough to enforce their own set rules. One Warlock I DMed for said "I know i said i had Chalk, but I said i have powdered chalk, and you are after a stick of chalk." and it led to a few great moments. You have been given multiple solutions from " Enable Legacy, add those items to the table, then disable Legacy" to "Use Other Possession method" to " make the logically justify why they have it."
Hells smells, you can just make them track it separately themselves on scratch paper. 

Any further arguing seems like an excuse to complain.

When you have time and a place to resupply keeping track of small things seems stupid.

But that one time your out in the wilds ...... stuck down a dungeon....shipwrecked on an island.

Finding wild food is far harder than you might think, rations need to be kept track of. Can you have a real full rest without food? For a week?

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

I just looked and i cant even find rules in the 5.5e/2024 rulebooks for foraging for food. I assume its because a common level 1 spell solves the entire problem.

 https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/running-the-game#Foraging

Goodberry used to require finding the berries your spell would then magic.

Now it creates them.

But it does not cover your water requirements.

How many could a 5th level druid create in a day? He can feed a village.

A major part of this discussion seems to be that there are 2 (at least) basic camps of tables: the "if its not on your list" camp and the " adventurer's gear" camp (and never the twain shall meet). I've played in both over the years and DMed both over the years these are things like arrows that some tables have unlimited and others track. Having a few things like whetstones and chalk, string (twine), etc listed for the trackers is not a problem. further it can add considerable realism to games that otherwise might not have it. As someone who has spent months at a time traveling with only what I have in my backpack (80 #) I'm well aware of how important it can be to actually know (list) what you have available. In addition, some items, like chalk, can be useful in multiple ways. I typically have 10(+) sticks listed but at least 5 are actually ground up and stored in small paper folds for casting in the air to cover invisible foes (and yes I know I could use flour or fire ash/charcoal - but fire ash/charcoal are dark in dimly lit areas and flour is taking food from my mouth so a few folds of chalk can be useful. Similarly, Goodberry is a great spell but if used all/most of your berries bringing folks back into the combat then you need to forage to feed those same folks as they heal. Further that foraging is really a part of that third (exploration) leg that everyone loves to ignore for the "fun" parts of the game.  For those that do run "tracking games" you understand, for those that don't try it sometime to get a (possibly renewed) sense of how it changes the styles of everyones play. 

Quote from Wi1dBi11 >>

A major part of this discussion seems to be that there are 2 (at least) basic camps of tables: the "if its not on your list" camp and the " adventurer's gear" camp (and never the twain shall meet). I've played in both over the years and DMed both over the years these are things like arrows that some tables have unlimited and others track. Having a few things like whetstones and chalk, string (twine), etc listed for the trackers is not a problem. further it can add considerable realism to games that otherwise might not have it. As someone who has spent months at a time traveling with only what I have in my backpack (80 #) I'm well aware of how important it can be to actually know (list) what you have available. In addition, some items, like chalk, can be useful in multiple ways. I typically have 10(+) sticks listed but at least 5 are actually ground up and stored in small paper folds for casting in the air to cover invisible foes (and yes I know I could use flour or fire ash/charcoal - but fire ash/charcoal are dark in dimly lit areas and flour is taking food from my mouth so a few folds of chalk can be useful. Similarly, Goodberry is a great spell but if used all/most of your berries bringing folks back into the combat then you need to forage to feed those same folks as they heal. Further that foraging is really a part of that third (exploration) leg that everyone loves to ignore for the "fun" parts of the game.  For those that do run "tracking games" you understand, for those that don't try it sometime to get a (possibly renewed) sense of how it changes the styles of everyones play. 

 Realism is an interesting argument...in the game where people can drop a fireball via guano, humans can quickly reload a heavy crossbow & not instantly get pelted w/shots while doing so, while a dancer can insult someone to death.

Carry some rations and water.

Plus how do you feed and water your horses?

Horses can pull wagons of food and water.

The DM does not need to disable Goodberry. Your group just doesn't have a caster with the spell.

Twisting a non druid character into something that can cast the spell is normally not needed and something better for that character can be picked.

grittier games can call for more realism as can games that do more tracking. Further, some folks (both DMs and players) want/need more than the "bare essentials" when designing dungeons and bastion spaces so leaving in those container types etc. can be useful for some of us. If they aren't for you just ignore them. I'm kinda tired of folks that don't want/need things I do want/need trying to tell me I can't/shouldn't have them because they don't need/want them.

Quote from TheGnome5786 >>

Carry some rations and water.

 

Plus how do you feed and water your horses?

Horses can pull wagons of food and water.

 

The DM does not need to disable Goodberry. Your group just doesn't have a caster with the spell.

Twisting a non druid character into something that can cast the spell is normally not needed and something better for that character can be picked.

I am firmly part of the "realism isn't fun regarding tracking supplies" camp. A lot of it is busy work, and as someone who has played Joel Hardin's Mogul to the end...busy paperwork is not fun for me.

Rangers & several subclasses can learn Goodberry, too.

Can we not descend into Simulationist VS Abstractionist gameplay style arguments? They are tedious and unproductive as edition wars.

Different stroke for different folks. Move on with your lives.

Quote from GnollitAll78450 >>

Can we not descend into Simulationist VS Abstractionist gameplay style arguments?

Hasn't that been the focus of this discussion from the start?

There are a couple of basic ways of handling a PC announcing "I'm going to mark our path with chalk" (or whatever)

1. Let them do it if they have chalk on their character sheet. Keep track of how much chalk they use.
2. Let them do it if they have chalk on their character sheet. Don't bother tracking how much they use, unless they try to do something silly.
3. Let them do it if they have some other composite component on their character sheet.
4. Give the player a roll to see if they thought to bring chalk. Or let them use some sort of metagame currency to 'buy' chalk.
5. Just assume they can have chalk if they want it.

Simulationist play tends towards the top of that list, abstract or cinematic play tends towards the bottom. D&D isn't all that consistent though its default is probably closest to (3). There's an argument for having some exploration type tool proficiencies, and having abstract equipment kits (like component pouch), so a Spelunker's Kit would have a bunch of stuff appropriate for exploring caves.