Looking back at the lore of every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil. In the Forgotten Realms the Elves are literally responsible for everything negative. They have this huge civil war which forces half of them underground which forced the dwarves deeper underground etc.
Elves aren't "good" as a species. An elf can be good, or neutral, or evil. Also unintended outcomes doesn't make one good or evil, no more than do the actions of your ancestors or your government or the government of a completely different nation that happens to be the same species as you...
I think that people perceive elves as good because they are an immortal race that manipulates their physical world in pursuit of what they claim to be the greater good. They're hella old and hella smart, so convincing the short-lived idiots of the world that they are there to help and not simply to maintain their peaceful forest empire through any means necessary isn't that difficult. I believe that is why the dwarves are so sour on the elves. The dwarves have lived long enough to know that most of what the elves are doing only benefits them and are tired of elven lies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ma'am, you do not need to yell at me. This is my first day with your 7th grader and I am also upset that they cannot read." - me, teaching.
Davyd already hit the nail on the head as it relates to D&D, but I wanted to touch on your fundamental assumption that “in every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil.” That is a clearly wrong assumption.
The modern fantasy elf was developed by Tolkien, building upon ideas from Norse and Germanic mythology. In Norse mythologu, elves were regularly treated as good figures, with ties to fertility and health, while in Germanic myth, they were less aligned and more ambivalent, making decisions based on their own motivations and not some kind of alignment. This is also where the concept of dark elves come from, but that is a different story more akin to Drow, which does not appear to be what you are discussing.
Flash forward to Tolkien and you have his elves, which are unquestionably on the side of good. Yes, they might be harsh at times - Elrond and particularly Thranduil both display extremely severe tendencies - but, throughout the Legendarium, elves consistently are on the sides of the good characters, particularly in the Silmarillion, where they are primary protagonists.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Looking back at the lore of every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil.
What franchise(s) are you talking about? How many are there? What are warhammer elves? A warhammer elf make them sound like a soldier race and that in itself may lean to being evil. But then, an elf using warhammer does not sound much like a typical elf.
"Warhammer" is the franchise (tabletop wargame, among other things these days), but I'm going to have to agree with Caerwyn. Show us the receipts. What franchises are you talking about when you say that "[elves] are objectively evil"?
FR is the only one you actually brought up and Davyd gave you the only answer necessary in that regard. In modern DnD, anyway, alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Elves are individuals. That is the way of things now and it has been building toward that for decades. Plus with the Multiverse, elven culture can be wildly different between them. Compare a Devkarin from Ravnica to any realms elf and their cultures won't line up.
Speaking of Realms elves. There is a constant through line and commentary on this in much of D&D literature. Usually boils down to, "elves are as flawed as everyone else but won't admit it" so they as a species may be thought of as "of the goodly races" but they can still be bad people. They are only considered "goodly" because they... well they are not an active and aggressive threat to the surface world societies. At least not now.
Imma be honest, their term for other elves "Tel'Quessir" meaning "the people" and their terms for non-elves being "N'Tel'Quessir" or "Not the people" comes off a little too close to coming as Elves=people and Non-Elves=Not people for my licking sometimes. Sounds very ick. Then there are certain factions that don't even like other subraces of elves, and i am not talking about the Drow, I am talking about Sun-elf supremacists. But then not every elf acts like that. There are plenty that live in human cities, get along with everyone, sometimes marry other peoples of the realms, and are just chill. They are individuals and the current lore reflects that.
Then there are Elven individuals who are unequivocally evil, like Valindra Shadowmantel, who before turning herself into a Lich, was an elf, and she became Neverwinter's biggest problem.
Distracted Elf did a long video essay on Correllon and Elven culture that is rather scathing, and she points out their flaws without mercy. You are not the first to wonder this. But it really comes down to, they aren't currently at war with the rest of the surface societies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
I'm going to give some advice about D&D fantasy species that it turns out is shockingly useful in the real world as well: Try not to treat groups as being monolithic entities in which every member shares the same attitudes and beliefs. Keeping that in mind you'll be a better DM because your NPCs won't be all flat and two-dimensional, and you'll be a more engaged human being for seeing other people complexly.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries come from very different origin points. Elves entered English culture through the Germanic and Norse, while fey creatures entered through Celtic and other folklores. Over time, English did what it does best - it blended language and culture together, and the terms became increasingly seen as congruent. Had D&D based elves and fey on general English understandings derived over centuries, your point would be correct.
But they did not. Elves were clearly based on Tolkien's elves. From the descriptions, to the abilities, to the general cultures, Tolkien's fingerprints are all over D&D's elves. Tolkien himself was a scholar of Norse and Germanic myth... and actively disliked Celtic myth as a personal preference (which is why it is very unlikely the Tuatha Dé Danaan played much part in his characterization). When Tolkien created his elves, he went back to the older stories, divorced of the comingling of faeries and elves that occurred in the proceeding centuries. Thus, when D&D borrowed from Tolkien, they were borrowing from a version satanized of the fey comingling.
Fey creatures in D&D are divorced from Tolkien and have greater origins within Celtic and more generalized folklore. This is apparent in historical feywild sources, which clearly draw from a large range of inspirations and descriptions of what counts as a fey.
Over time, D&D has recreated some of the comingling of generic English culture as they have sought to better organize and categorize different species. So, Elves, which are not listed as being fey in origin in 1e products, eventually became Fey due to their closer similarities to Fey than other humanoids.
But in terms of their origins in the game, it is very, very clear they came from distinct cultural elements that, much like in the real world, have been increasingly blended together over the past couple decades. Yet, though this blending has occurred in the game, there still are some flavor elements that make sense when you put the respective creatures in the context of their historical origins.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
As Caerwyn mentioned though - even some of Tolkien's elves leaned towards being, if not outright a-holes, at least patronizing / condescending to non-elves. (Not entirely unjustified given the history of Men and Dwarves, but still.) And yes, that might reflect more on the attitude of those individuals rather than the species as a whole, but those examples still held leadership roles in their society, which indicates their attitudes may be more prevailing than not.
But they did not. Elves were clearly based on Tolkien's elves. From the descriptions, to the abilities, to the general cultures, Tolkien's fingerprints are all over D&D's elves. Tolkien himself was a scholar of Norse and Germanic myth... and actively disliked Celtic myth as a personal preference (which is why it is very unlikely the Tuatha Dé Danaan played much part in his characterization).
The whole 'island to the west' thing for elves is much more common for celtic sources, and the wood elves are pretty typical mound folk (aes sídhe).
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Well not really. In Tolkein's works other than the Lord of The Ring trilogy, they aren't as noble. If you read works like the Silmarillion, penned by Tolkien and compiled later by his son, you have characters like Fëanor, who did some truly horrible things. There is a reason Tolkien fans say "Fëanor did everything wrong" because he and many of his followers did awful things, the biggest one being "The Kin-slaying" in which Fëanor led an army to steal ships from Valinor and sail to Middle earth.... by murdering the shipwrights who were repairing or finishing up vessels. He killed the guards, sailors and even unarmed carpenters who wouldn't just step aside and let him take their finest vessels. Lets also acknowledge the Elves of Myrkwood locking up starving, lost Dwarves in a dungeon when they ran towards lights to beg for help. Not great behavior either.
Elves as we know them and before were always passionate, flawed and temperamental.
If you read some of the older mythology, they are almost as wicked as devils, though that is likely cantamination after christianization, but it is still foundational.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries come from very different origin points. Elves entered English culture through the Germanic and Norse, while fey creatures entered through Celtic and other folklores. Over time, English did what it does best - it blended language and culture together, and the terms became increasingly seen as congruent. Had D&D based elves and fey on general English understandings derived over centuries, your point would be correct.
But they did not. Elves were clearly based on Tolkien's elves. From the descriptions, to the abilities, to the general cultures, Tolkien's fingerprints are all over D&D's elves. Tolkien himself was a scholar of Norse and Germanic myth... and actively disliked Celtic myth as a personal preference (which is why it is very unlikely the Tuatha Dé Danaan played much part in his characterization). When Tolkien created his elves, he went back to the older stories, divorced of the comingling of faeries and elves that occurred in the proceeding centuries. Thus, when D&D borrowed from Tolkien, they were borrowing from a version satanized of the fey comingling.
Fey creatures in D&D are divorced from Tolkien and have greater origins within Celtic and more generalized folklore. This is apparent in historical feywild sources, which clearly draw from a large range of inspirations and descriptions of what counts as a fey.
Over time, D&D has recreated some of the comingling of generic English culture as they have sought to better organize and categorize different species. So, Elves, which are not listed as being fey in origin in 1e products, eventually became Fey due to their closer similarities to Fey than other humanoids.
But in terms of their origins in the game, it is very, very clear they came from distinct cultural elements that, much like in the real world, have been increasingly blended together over the past couple decades. Yet, though this blending has occurred in the game, there still are some flavor elements that make sense when you put the respective creatures in the context of their historical origins.
Looking back at the lore of every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil.
What franchise(s) are you talking about? How many are there? What are warhammer elves? A warhammer elf make them sound like a soldier race and that in itself may lean to being evil. But then, an elf using warhammer does not sound much like a typical elf.
I means the franchise Warhammer. I thought the evils were the only good guys. Maybe that is just the Eldar? But even then they are the reason for Chaos so...
Elves are individuals. That is the way of things now and it has been building toward that for decades. Plus with the Multiverse, elven culture can be wildly different between them. Compare a Devkarin from Ravnica to any realms elf and their cultures won't line up.
Speaking of Realms elves. There is a constant through line and commentary on this in much of D&D literature. Usually boils down to, "elves are as flawed as everyone else but won't admit it" so they as a species may be thought of as "of the goodly races" but they can still be bad people. They are only considered "goodly" because they... well they are not an active and aggressive threat to the surface world societies. At least not now.
Imma be honest, their term for other elves "Tel'Quessir" meaning "the people" and their terms for non-elves being "N'Tel'Quessir" or "Not the people" comes off a little too close to coming as Elves=people and Non-Elves=Not people for my licking sometimes. Sounds very ick. Then there are certain factions that don't even like other subraces of elves, and i am not talking about the Drow, I am talking about Sun-elf supremacists. But then not every elf acts like that. There are plenty that live in human cities, get along with everyone, sometimes marry other peoples of the realms, and are just chill. They are individuals and the current lore reflects that.
Then there are Elven individuals who are unequivocally evil, like Valindra Shadowmantel, who before turning herself into a Lich, was an elf, and she became Neverwinter's biggest problem.
Distracted Elf did a long video essay on Correllon and Elven culture that is rather scathing, and she points out their flaws without mercy. You are not the first to wonder this. But it really comes down to, they aren't currently at war with the rest of the surface societies.
This makes sense. Elves are evil but they are also extremely good as propagandist.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
I actually asked this because I am re-watching rings of power and I forgot how dumb the elves are. Our world will end unless we have the pretty stone from the Dwarves. And then they act like the Dwarves are the greedy ones. Psh.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Well not really. In Tolkein's works other than the Lord of The Ring trilogy, they aren't as noble. If you read works like the Silmarillion, penned by Tolkien and compiled later by his son, you have characters like Fëanor, who did some truly horrible things. There is a reason Tolkien fans say "Fëanor did everything wrong" because he and many of his followers did awful things, the biggest one being "The Kin-slaying" in which Fëanor led an army to steal ships from Valinor and sail to Middle earth.... by murdering the shipwrights who were repairing or finishing up vessels. He killed the guards, sailors and even unarmed carpenters who wouldn't just step aside and let him take their finest vessels. Lets also acknowledge the Elves of Myrkwood locking up starving, lost Dwarves in a dungeon when they ran towards lights to beg for help. Not great behavior either.
Elves as we know them and before were always passionate, flawed and temperamental.
If you read some of the older mythology, they are almost as wicked as devils, though that is likely cantamination after christianization, but it is still foundational.
The only elf I'm willing to listen to from Middle Earth come from the Wirewood. The rest are just sooooooo mundane. Lol
I actually asked this because I am re-watching rings of power and I forgot how dumb the elves are. Our world will end unless we have the pretty stone from the Dwarves. And then they act like the Dwarves are the greedy ones. Psh.
There's the problem. First: D&D is heavily influenced by Tolkien but it isn't Tolkien. Second: Rings of Power just wasn't very well-written.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Without opining on Rings of Power's overall quality, I seem to recall an evil demigod deceiving all the major players around that time in the setting's history too.
The whole "elf alignment" debacle is driven by multiple factors, & not all of them due to the actual stories.
It doesn't help that Tolkien made a good chunk of his elves looking like the Nazis' ideal Germans. & people react to the "Aryan" elf in the same ways they react to ABBA:Either they love them, or they want them contained like SCPs. Yes, some members of ABBA were bred in a Nazi master race breeding program.
It further doesn't help that the Forgotten Realms authors made the ostensibly black elves baby-killing demon-worshiping matriarchal evil rebels against the good, blonde, blue-eyed white elves.
THOSE BEING SAID:
If you feel the need to chain yourself to the most egregious cliche versions of a people, you need to ask yourself in the mirror why you wish to embody the out-of-date stereotypes.
An elf may be whomever they choose to be. Likewise, a civilization's government doesn't always represent the people's attitudes, wants and needs.
So, as far as I'm concerned..."elves" aren't evil. "Elves" aren't good. Elves are whomever they want to be, in all media. & it's unneedingly restrictive writing to smash all elves into the pink slime that is alignment.
I must note that content creators should not be considered an automatically valid source, since the majority are buskers & salespeople first & foremost. They're there to sell their content. & lord knows a ton of content creators have sold people on nuance-less reactionary things before.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Elves are individuals. That is the way of things now and it has been building toward that for decades. Plus with the Multiverse, elven culture can be wildly different between them. Compare a Devkarin from Ravnica to any realms elf and their cultures won't line up.
Speaking of Realms elves. There is a constant through line and commentary on this in much of D&D literature. Usually boils down to, "elves are as flawed as everyone else but won't admit it" so they as a species may be thought of as "of the goodly races" but they can still be bad people. They are only considered "goodly" because they... well they are not an active and aggressive threat to the surface world societies. At least not now.
Imma be honest, their term for other elves "Tel'Quessir" meaning "the people" and their terms for non-elves being "N'Tel'Quessir" or "Not the people" comes off a little too close to coming as Elves=people and Non-Elves=Not people for my licking sometimes. Sounds very ick. Then there are certain factions that don't even like other subraces of elves, and i am not talking about the Drow, I am talking about Sun-elf supremacists. But then not every elf acts like that. There are plenty that live in human cities, get along with everyone, sometimes marry other peoples of the realms, and are just chill. They are individuals and the current lore reflects that.
Then there are Elven individuals who are unequivocally evil, like Valindra Shadowmantel, who before turning herself into a Lich, was an elf, and she became Neverwinter's biggest problem.
Distracted Elf did a long video essay on Correllon and Elven culture that is rather scathing, and she points out their flaws without mercy. You are not the first to wonder this. But it really comes down to, they aren't currently at war with the rest of the surface societies.
This makes sense. Elves are evil but they are also extremely good as propagandist.
Looking back at the lore of every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil. In the Forgotten Realms the Elves are literally responsible for everything negative. They have this huge civil war which forces half of them underground which forced the dwarves deeper underground etc.
How can an elf have a good alignment?
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Elves aren't "good" as a species. An elf can be good, or neutral, or evil. Also unintended outcomes doesn't make one good or evil, no more than do the actions of your ancestors or your government or the government of a completely different nation that happens to be the same species as you...
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I think that people perceive elves as good because they are an immortal race that manipulates their physical world in pursuit of what they claim to be the greater good. They're hella old and hella smart, so convincing the short-lived idiots of the world that they are there to help and not simply to maintain their peaceful forest empire through any means necessary isn't that difficult. I believe that is why the dwarves are so sour on the elves. The dwarves have lived long enough to know that most of what the elves are doing only benefits them and are tired of elven lies.
"Ma'am, you do not need to yell at me. This is my first day with your 7th grader and I am also upset that they cannot read." - me, teaching.
Davyd already hit the nail on the head as it relates to D&D, but I wanted to touch on your fundamental assumption that “in every franchise except maybe Warhammer Elves are objectively evil.” That is a clearly wrong assumption.
The modern fantasy elf was developed by Tolkien, building upon ideas from Norse and Germanic mythology. In Norse mythologu, elves were regularly treated as good figures, with ties to fertility and health, while in Germanic myth, they were less aligned and more ambivalent, making decisions based on their own motivations and not some kind of alignment. This is also where the concept of dark elves come from, but that is a different story more akin to Drow, which does not appear to be what you are discussing.
Flash forward to Tolkien and you have his elves, which are unquestionably on the side of good. Yes, they might be harsh at times - Elrond and particularly Thranduil both display extremely severe tendencies - but, throughout the Legendarium, elves consistently are on the sides of the good characters, particularly in the Silmarillion, where they are primary protagonists.
Countless other sources, including D&D followed Tolkien’s model - haughty, aloof, a perspective shaped by their long lives, but generally leaning toward the “good” side of the story.
Perhaps you are confusing elves and Fae. While elves are a Fae race in D&D, they are not congruent terms. Fae, as compared to elves, are born of different types of folklore, where antagonism, malevolence, or trickster personas are on display. Fae and other faeries are often seen as antagonists or impediments to protagonists, in a way elves are not.
What franchise(s) are you talking about? How many are there? What are warhammer elves? A warhammer elf make them sound like a soldier race and that in itself may lean to being evil. But then, an elf using warhammer does not sound much like a typical elf.
"Warhammer" is the franchise (tabletop wargame, among other things these days), but I'm going to have to agree with Caerwyn. Show us the receipts. What franchises are you talking about when you say that "[elves] are objectively evil"?
FR is the only one you actually brought up and Davyd gave you the only answer necessary in that regard. In modern DnD, anyway, alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Elves are individuals. That is the way of things now and it has been building toward that for decades.
Plus with the Multiverse, elven culture can be wildly different between them. Compare a Devkarin from Ravnica to any realms elf and their cultures won't line up.
Speaking of Realms elves.
There is a constant through line and commentary on this in much of D&D literature. Usually boils down to, "elves are as flawed as everyone else but won't admit it" so they as a species may be thought of as "of the goodly races" but they can still be bad people.
They are only considered "goodly" because they... well they are not an active and aggressive threat to the surface world societies. At least not now.
Imma be honest, their term for other elves "Tel'Quessir" meaning "the people" and their terms for non-elves being "N'Tel'Quessir" or "Not the people" comes off a little too close to coming as Elves=people and Non-Elves=Not people for my licking sometimes. Sounds very ick. Then there are certain factions that don't even like other subraces of elves, and i am not talking about the Drow, I am talking about Sun-elf supremacists.
But then not every elf acts like that. There are plenty that live in human cities, get along with everyone, sometimes marry other peoples of the realms, and are just chill. They are individuals and the current lore reflects that.
Then there are Elven individuals who are unequivocally evil, like Valindra Shadowmantel, who before turning herself into a Lich, was an elf, and she became Neverwinter's biggest problem.
Distracted Elf did a long video essay on Correllon and Elven culture that is rather scathing, and she points out their flaws without mercy. You are not the first to wonder this. But it really comes down to, they aren't currently at war with the rest of the surface societies.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I'm going to give some advice about D&D fantasy species that it turns out is shockingly useful in the real world as well: Try not to treat groups as being monolithic entities in which every member shares the same attitudes and beliefs. Keeping that in mind you'll be a better DM because your NPCs won't be all flat and two-dimensional, and you'll be a more engaged human being for seeing other people complexly.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries are not readily discernible. Tolkien's high elves are probably closest to the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
However, the "elves as a-holes" meme in modern fantasy is mostly a reaction to Tolkien, not something drawn from earlier folklore.
Well, no. In terms of folklore, elves and faeries come from very different origin points. Elves entered English culture through the Germanic and Norse, while fey creatures entered through Celtic and other folklores. Over time, English did what it does best - it blended language and culture together, and the terms became increasingly seen as congruent. Had D&D based elves and fey on general English understandings derived over centuries, your point would be correct.
But they did not. Elves were clearly based on Tolkien's elves. From the descriptions, to the abilities, to the general cultures, Tolkien's fingerprints are all over D&D's elves. Tolkien himself was a scholar of Norse and Germanic myth... and actively disliked Celtic myth as a personal preference (which is why it is very unlikely the Tuatha Dé Danaan played much part in his characterization). When Tolkien created his elves, he went back to the older stories, divorced of the comingling of faeries and elves that occurred in the proceeding centuries. Thus, when D&D borrowed from Tolkien, they were borrowing from a version satanized of the fey comingling.
Fey creatures in D&D are divorced from Tolkien and have greater origins within Celtic and more generalized folklore. This is apparent in historical feywild sources, which clearly draw from a large range of inspirations and descriptions of what counts as a fey.
Over time, D&D has recreated some of the comingling of generic English culture as they have sought to better organize and categorize different species. So, Elves, which are not listed as being fey in origin in 1e products, eventually became Fey due to their closer similarities to Fey than other humanoids.
But in terms of their origins in the game, it is very, very clear they came from distinct cultural elements that, much like in the real world, have been increasingly blended together over the past couple decades. Yet, though this blending has occurred in the game, there still are some flavor elements that make sense when you put the respective creatures in the context of their historical origins.
As Caerwyn mentioned though - even some of Tolkien's elves leaned towards being, if not outright a-holes, at least patronizing / condescending to non-elves. (Not entirely unjustified given the history of Men and Dwarves, but still.) And yes, that might reflect more on the attitude of those individuals rather than the species as a whole, but those examples still held leadership roles in their society, which indicates their attitudes may be more prevailing than not.
In terms of folklore, the exact same creature may be labeled an elf or a faerie depending on the speaker.
The whole 'island to the west' thing for elves is much more common for celtic sources, and the wood elves are pretty typical mound folk (aes sídhe).
Well not really. In Tolkein's works other than the Lord of The Ring trilogy, they aren't as noble.
If you read works like the Silmarillion, penned by Tolkien and compiled later by his son, you have characters like Fëanor, who did some truly horrible things.
There is a reason Tolkien fans say "Fëanor did everything wrong" because he and many of his followers did awful things, the biggest one being "The Kin-slaying" in which Fëanor led an army to steal ships from Valinor and sail to Middle earth.... by murdering the shipwrights who were repairing or finishing up vessels.
He killed the guards, sailors and even unarmed carpenters who wouldn't just step aside and let him take their finest vessels.
Lets also acknowledge the Elves of Myrkwood locking up starving, lost Dwarves in a dungeon when they ran towards lights to beg for help. Not great behavior either.
Elves as we know them and before were always passionate, flawed and temperamental.
If you read some of the older mythology, they are almost as wicked as devils, though that is likely cantamination after christianization, but it is still foundational.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Ah, "satanized" !?
Do you not mean "sanitized"?
I means the franchise Warhammer. I thought the evils were the only good guys. Maybe that is just the Eldar? But even then they are the reason for Chaos so...
This makes sense. Elves are evil but they are also extremely good as propagandist.
I actually asked this because I am re-watching rings of power and I forgot how dumb the elves are. Our world will end unless we have the pretty stone from the Dwarves. And then they act like the Dwarves are the greedy ones. Psh.
The only elf I'm willing to listen to from Middle Earth come from the Wirewood. The rest are just sooooooo mundane. Lol
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
There's the problem. First: D&D is heavily influenced by Tolkien but it isn't Tolkien. Second: Rings of Power just wasn't very well-written.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Without opining on Rings of Power's overall quality, I seem to recall an evil demigod deceiving all the major players around that time in the setting's history too.
Please show me in the official lore where it says elves are objectively evil and are the source of all the world's problems.
The whole "elf alignment" debacle is driven by multiple factors, & not all of them due to the actual stories.
It doesn't help that Tolkien made a good chunk of his elves looking like the Nazis' ideal Germans. & people react to the "Aryan" elf in the same ways they react to ABBA:Either they love them, or they want them contained like SCPs. Yes, some members of ABBA were bred in a Nazi master race breeding program.
It further doesn't help that the Forgotten Realms authors made the ostensibly black elves baby-killing demon-worshiping matriarchal evil rebels against the good, blonde, blue-eyed white elves.
THOSE BEING SAID:
If you feel the need to chain yourself to the most egregious cliche versions of a people, you need to ask yourself in the mirror why you wish to embody the out-of-date stereotypes.
An elf may be whomever they choose to be. Likewise, a civilization's government doesn't always represent the people's attitudes, wants and needs.
So, as far as I'm concerned..."elves" aren't evil. "Elves" aren't good. Elves are whomever they want to be, in all media. & it's unneedingly restrictive writing to smash all elves into the pink slime that is alignment.
I must note that content creators should not be considered an automatically valid source, since the majority are buskers & salespeople first & foremost. They're there to sell their content. & lord knows a ton of content creators have sold people on nuance-less reactionary things before.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
That's not what GnollitAll said at all.