So 5th edition has been going strong now since 2014 and I'd say overall it's been an overwhelming success. Two of my favorite aspects of 5th edition have been the production values in both the art and the content of the rules and a back to basics approach that's gotten rid of most of the unnecessary fluff. With that being said there are some things that concern me about the business model.
The first of which is just how few people are on the design team. While I'm sure these people are working hard to make the game as enjoyable as possible and playtest any new material that develops. The fact that every person is essential to the release at hand at any given time means that there isn't as much an opportunity to do supplemental products. SCAG and Volo's guide and the Yawning portal have all been enjoyable but they've also arrived at a snail's pace relatively speaking. I know that Mearls and Perkins have stated a desire to make content that everyone can and will want to use a priority but the reality is that even if 5th ed lasts 5 more years there will already be too much content for everyone to possibly process. The Tyranny of Dragons and POTP and OOTA have enough content to last at least a year or even more so. Curse of Strahd and Storm King's Thunder have shown signs of the releases being trimmed down a bit with both being levels 1-10+ but both are still very sizable and have a lot of content.
The main points I want to make are these:
1. While I appreciate the desire for all of the content to be useful the reality is that as more releases occur there is going to be so much content that nobody is going to have the time to process all of it which means it's just as likely to not be used (Not that people won't use it).
2. While I like bang for my buck in terms of large adventures I'd be lying if I said I wasn't fatigued. I think resources would be better used making a book like a dm's guide to traps or a book of items. I'd prefer a fully realized campaign guide or even a new campaign setting. I realize that not everyone is going to get their choice in terms of their favorite setting but again as more content is released niches are going to develop regardless and already exist.
3. While the majority of 5e has been published in-house I wonder if wizards wouldn't be better in outsourcing more to Sasquatch or Green Ronin to give them more freedom to do more supplements. Nobody wants an inferior product but at the same time while D&D is always going to be around the slow release schedule of 5th Ed combined with the almost a year wait can lead to a loss of interest. True, nobody is forcing me to buy all of the products as soon as they release and the game is only limited by your imagination but you can only give out crumbs for so long before people start to go elsewhere. If wizard's outsourced more I feel like a new release every 4 1/2 - 5 months could become feasible and if they felt like the product wasn't up to snuff they could always go back to the drawing board. Anyways this is just my two cents, what are your thoughts?
The problem is that you only need to release campaign length adventures every year or so as they are designed to be played within that amount of time and the hope/goal is that you will be playing the next one while waiting for the future one to come out.
WotC could probably produce more content in house but have decided on less content. Granted it could be that Hasbro/WotC has really cut back on the number of employees assigned to d&d. Really it's going to take the D&D arm of WotC a while to recover from 4th edition of they ever do.
Likely a lot of this is a result of the failure that 4th edition was and how beholden Mearls is to his surveys.
Personally WotC is letting their competitors produce better materials than they are. Which is really sad. The biggest drawback is forcing players to buy too many resources. The PHB for example should include magic items and all the monsters that pcs need to function. That frees up space for the dmg to have actual content and keeps PCs to actually having the materials they need for their spells.
At his point I would rather a true campaign guide rather than the wimpy things WotC is putting out. Which is why I am looking forward to the critical role campaign guide.
However, we know that the stream of annialation is going to reveal the next adventure and presumably some resoures that "fans" have been wanting.
Wizards has done a pretty poor job of supporting games at conventions as well. I've talked to quite a few D&D Regional Coordinators at various conventions and they were all frustrated with the material and support (or lack there of) that Wizards has provided for them to use. My local area, less than three hours from two of the biggest metropolitan areas in my state, lacks access to a Regional Coordinator all together. There just isn't one assigned to the whole middle swath of my state.
As for published material, the snail's pace that it is coming out it probably a reaction to the massive over printing of the 3.X years (and to the lesser extent, the 4th Ed times). Many of the game stores in my area still have shelves full of 3.X and 4th books that go on forever. Each splat book targeting a smaller and smaller chunk of the player base that has long since moved on to either 5th Ed or Pathfinder. I'm mostly okay with the smaller amount of books in 5th Ed, though I do wish we could get maybe a player option book that dumps new races and UA classes/options on us all at once instead of waiting for them to trickle out here and there over the next several years.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I find the biggest problem with stores (at least the smaller ones) is not having the books to actually play and not having a good on going game to help people learn how to play.
With that said I would love more supplementary books that aren't adventures that I'm never going to use.
That's what the Encounters/Adventure League program was supposed to foster, but with the last couple of seasons, Wizards basically cut off game stores from free access to those adventures and the support packets that my LGS used to receive all but vanished. I run the Encounters program for my store and we've made due the best we could, but participation took a big drop once we stopped being able to easily provide for our players.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
It would be nice to have another campaign book though, I hear you on that.
Not another adventure module, but a campaign book for the Forgotten Realms, containing all of the lore, details on cities, major npcs, details on the Gods & their follows (more than the default paragraph in the current books).
Maybe accompanying slim book for the DM only, containing a whole load of adventure hooks for them to build off.
I guess I'm thinking back to how much I loved the original D&D Gazetteers and how useful they were when the campaign headed to one of the major towns/cities or another place on the map.
That's what the Encounters/Adventure League program was supposed to foster, but with the last couple of seasons, Wizards basically cut off game stores from free access to those adventures and the support packets that my LGS used to receive all but vanished. I run the Encounters program for my store and we've made due the best we could, but participation took a big drop once we stopped being able to easily provide for our players.
Adventures League has always had the problem that it isn't really D&D. It's a forced railroaded game that mimics D&D and works for convention play but not so much game store play, in my opinion. I think stores would be better off running a game where they don't have to worry about how many people are at the table and where the players can actually take the story places and have that interconnectivity between sessions.
I agree with you stormnight. I feel like in several years Forgotten Realms is going to be well forgotten as the material is not easily available without buying a ton of books for older editions.
Oh, I agree that book bloat was an issue but what I was saying is eventually, just by existing for any significant amount of time there's going to be book bloat regardless. True Wizard's can try and slow the pace down for as long as possible but again that's only a temporary fix. My problem is with the campaign-sized adventures, do I appreciate what I'm getting? Yes, I like that there is tons of content to cherry pick from and the production values have been great all around but my issue is drowning in all of the available content already.
I think Tales of the Yawning Portal was a step in the right direction with adventures to choose from that were easy to incorporate into a narrative or just work as one and done's
Gosh, this is a tough one. I have the three books and that's all I'm really using. I'm running a homebrew with my kids and that's it. There is a store in my area that is supposed to be part of the Adventurer's League, but I don't ever seem to have the time to get down there.
If I could just wave a magic wand I'd keep the three sourcebooks and publish core rulebooks for each of the worlds we know and love. Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms etc.
I'm thinking way back to 2nd Ed. when they had all these specialized books and optional rules come out. I could only buy so much and in retrospect they didn't add much to the game. I mean other than headaches. There always seemed to be more to buy, more to catch up on. I think my eyes were bigger than my stomach on a lot of things.
Honestly I'm not sure what I want to see out of WotC. I'm waiting for that one product or products to come along and fill a need or answer a question I didn't even know I had.
I'd love to see more "stuff" but I accept the reasons we're not seeing more.
Also, I feel that there's an interesting if unofficia vibe that not every character needs a unique class. It's what characters do that makes it interesting,not what they are.
An interesting challenge will be how a setting that is less inclusive is handled. Like Dragonlance, that probably would need to remove some classes, races, and archetypes. That could be a challenge.
Wizards has done a pretty poor job of supporting games at conventions as well. I've talked to quite a few D&D Regional Coordinators at various conventions and they were all frustrated with the material and support (or lack there of) that Wizards has provided for them to use. My local area, less than three hours from two of the biggest metropolitan areas in my state, lacks access to a Regional Coordinator all together. There just isn't one assigned to the whole middle swath of my state.
As for published material, the snail's pace that it is coming out it probably a reaction to the massive over printing of the 3.X years (and to the lesser extent, the 4th Ed times). Many of the game stores in my area still have shelves full of 3.X and 4th books that go on forever. Each splat book targeting a smaller and smaller chunk of the player base that has long since moved on to either 5th Ed or Pathfinder. I'm mostly okay with the smaller amount of books in 5th Ed, though I do wish we could get maybe a player option book that dumps new races and UA classes/options on us all at once instead of waiting for them to trickle out here and there over the next several years.
If they have a lot of books left, does that mean they have some of the D20 Modern stuff? I've been designing a 5e campaign with a modern setting (and also playing a game that is a D20 Modern game) and it would be nice to have an actual book to flip through and see if I could use some of their old stuff in my 5e campaign. I notice amazon has used copies from private sellers, but... meh. It'd be nice to have a new or like new copy.
I'm absolutely not concerned about the business model at all.
Small staff? Slow release schedule? Well done products that do make it to retail???
That all sounds like a business model that can profit smartly, and sustain for a good long while. Which is exactly what I want from Wizards of the Coast and Dungeons & Dragons. I am very happy with 5e and completely uninterested in hearing anything about a 6e until somewhere in the next decade.
I agree, glut will happen, but if our glut hits in say 2022... well that's great! Having been at this for a few editions, the slow pace on 5e is sensible. It means the few books released sell well as we aren't choosing between six WotC books each month. We are either buying Yawning Portal, or we aren't. On the business side more profit per book means better margin. More profit from one book while five others flounder or break even means low margins.
This is a smart business approach and will keep Hasbro accountants and investors eyes on other parts of the greater corporate structure. D&D gets to be a "Hit or exceeded profit goals." line item on the shareholder statement and nothing more. That's perfection.
Yeah, I'd like a shiny campaign book but I'm happier doing it myself and buying the slowly paced out books. They are worth it and I can see this going on, profitably, for years.
DM'ing in 2e was madness. There were so many damn books to keep up with and every player had a favorite and it just got overwhelming. 3E had that with the d20 license too. You spent most of your time as a DM saying "No" to things vs finding great ways to use them because you couldn't keep up (well I couldn't). 5e? I've got three campaigns and am writing a fourth. I'm spending fair money on my hobby, loving the results, and keeping up.
I would prefer more resource books. I don't purchase published adventures.
I'm ready for a resource book, but I don't want a return to what was done for 2E, 3/3.5E, or 4E. 1E had roughly one hardcover/crunch book per year for its whole run. Even then, by the time they got to Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, they seemed to have run out of good ideas. I'll grant that 5E has a bit more leeway, with things like feats and the fact that there's a much longer list of monsters, spells, and magic items from previous editions that many folks would like to see officially brought back.
The fantasy genre has broadened quite a bit, too, since the 1980s. I'd still love to see new crunch broken out thematically, rather than functionally or even tied to a specific setting. So, they could release a new Oriental Adventures, that has the Mystic (regardless of older psionics, the mystic is definitely psuedo-Eastern), kensai and samurai sub-classes for fighter, ninja for rogue, and some new spells, feats, and items that fit that sort of genre. Do something similar for African, Arabian, etc. settings. Then, do stuff like steampunk, Enlightenment, Roman, etc. Each of these would be somewhat self-limiting on the bloat because it'd be a strange campaign, indeed, that had characters who borrowed from both feudal Japan and tribal Africa.
What I don't want are more source books that use the Realms as a backdrop for generic stuff. Either do the Realms or don't. This stupid middle ground isn't satisfying either fans of the Realms, fans of other worlds that are sitting on the shelf, or home-brewers.
"What I don't want are more source books that use the Realms as a backdrop for generic stuff. Either do the Realms or don't. This stupid middle ground isn't satisfying either fans of the Realms, fans of other worlds that are sitting on the shelf, or home-brewers."
I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to speak directly about this point.
I regret buying the Sword Coast book. It is just so much wasted paper for me. I personally would rather have resource books that are non-setting specific like the Complete series from 2nd edition or better yet, cultural expansion books with Asian, Middle Eastern, Meso-American etc. like you stated above. Those would be great
If they want to do Setting books, that is great too, there are people that want those. But for the rest of use, stop trying to make everything specifically for the Realms.
So, they could release a new Oriental Adventures, that has the Mystic (regardless of older psionics, the mystic is definitely psuedo-Eastern), kensai and samurai sub-classes for fighter, ninja for rogue, and some new spells, feats, and items that fit that sort of genre. Do something similar for African, Arabian, etc. settings. Then, do stuff like steampunk, Enlightenment, Roman, etc. Each of these would be somewhat self-limiting on the bloat because it'd be a strange campaign, indeed, that had characters who borrowed from both feudal Japan and tribal Africa.
I personally would rather have resource books that are non-setting specific like the Complete series from 2nd edition or better yet, cultural expansion books with Asian, Middle Eastern, Meso-American etc. like you stated above. Those would be great
I hope that if they do this, they at least research it so it's not just a bunch of stereotypes and kung fu movie references for the East Asian one. The whole broken-English and acting like Mr. Miyagi/Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee gets really old, really quickly. All of them would take actual research actually.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So 5th edition has been going strong now since 2014 and I'd say overall it's been an overwhelming success. Two of my favorite aspects of 5th edition have been the production values in both the art and the content of the rules and a back to basics approach that's gotten rid of most of the unnecessary fluff. With that being said there are some things that concern me about the business model.
The first of which is just how few people are on the design team. While I'm sure these people are working hard to make the game as enjoyable as possible and playtest any new material that develops. The fact that every person is essential to the release at hand at any given time means that there isn't as much an opportunity to do supplemental products. SCAG and Volo's guide and the Yawning portal have all been enjoyable but they've also arrived at a snail's pace relatively speaking. I know that Mearls and Perkins have stated a desire to make content that everyone can and will want to use a priority but the reality is that even if 5th ed lasts 5 more years there will already be too much content for everyone to possibly process. The Tyranny of Dragons and POTP and OOTA have enough content to last at least a year or even more so. Curse of Strahd and Storm King's Thunder have shown signs of the releases being trimmed down a bit with both being levels 1-10+ but both are still very sizable and have a lot of content.
The main points I want to make are these:
1. While I appreciate the desire for all of the content to be useful the reality is that as more releases occur there is going to be so much content that nobody is going to have the time to process all of it which means it's just as likely to not be used (Not that people won't use it).
2. While I like bang for my buck in terms of large adventures I'd be lying if I said I wasn't fatigued. I think resources would be better used making a book like a dm's guide to traps or a book of items. I'd prefer a fully realized campaign guide or even a new campaign setting. I realize that not everyone is going to get their choice in terms of their favorite setting but again as more content is released niches are going to develop regardless and already exist.
3. While the majority of 5e has been published in-house I wonder if wizards wouldn't be better in outsourcing more to Sasquatch or Green Ronin to give them more freedom to do more supplements. Nobody wants an inferior product but at the same time while D&D is always going to be around the slow release schedule of 5th Ed combined with the almost a year wait can lead to a loss of interest. True, nobody is forcing me to buy all of the products as soon as they release and the game is only limited by your imagination but you can only give out crumbs for so long before people start to go elsewhere. If wizard's outsourced more I feel like a new release every 4 1/2 - 5 months could become feasible and if they felt like the product wasn't up to snuff they could always go back to the drawing board. Anyways this is just my two cents, what are your thoughts?
The problem is that you only need to release campaign length adventures every year or so as they are designed to be played within that amount of time and the hope/goal is that you will be playing the next one while waiting for the future one to come out.
WotC could probably produce more content in house but have decided on less content. Granted it could be that Hasbro/WotC has really cut back on the number of employees assigned to d&d. Really it's going to take the D&D arm of WotC a while to recover from 4th edition of they ever do.
Likely a lot of this is a result of the failure that 4th edition was and how beholden Mearls is to his surveys.
Personally WotC is letting their competitors produce better materials than they are. Which is really sad. The biggest drawback is forcing players to buy too many resources. The PHB for example should include magic items and all the monsters that pcs need to function. That frees up space for the dmg to have actual content and keeps PCs to actually having the materials they need for their spells.
At his point I would rather a true campaign guide rather than the wimpy things WotC is putting out. Which is why I am looking forward to the critical role campaign guide.
However, we know that the stream of annialation is going to reveal the next adventure and presumably some resoures that "fans" have been wanting.
Wizards has done a pretty poor job of supporting games at conventions as well. I've talked to quite a few D&D Regional Coordinators at various conventions and they were all frustrated with the material and support (or lack there of) that Wizards has provided for them to use. My local area, less than three hours from two of the biggest metropolitan areas in my state, lacks access to a Regional Coordinator all together. There just isn't one assigned to the whole middle swath of my state.
As for published material, the snail's pace that it is coming out it probably a reaction to the massive over printing of the 3.X years (and to the lesser extent, the 4th Ed times). Many of the game stores in my area still have shelves full of 3.X and 4th books that go on forever. Each splat book targeting a smaller and smaller chunk of the player base that has long since moved on to either 5th Ed or Pathfinder. I'm mostly okay with the smaller amount of books in 5th Ed, though I do wish we could get maybe a player option book that dumps new races and UA classes/options on us all at once instead of waiting for them to trickle out here and there over the next several years.
Yeah I'm happy about the slow pace. If you want new content, feel free to look at all the UA stuff, or even some high quality homebrew content.
But avoiding the book-bloat of 3.X has been really smart. Sure, more items etc would be nice, but I'm ok with those coming out slowly.
Then again, I'm a heavy homebrew kind of guy when it comes to items and traps, so the two things you suggested don't really resonate with me.
I find the biggest problem with stores (at least the smaller ones) is not having the books to actually play and not having a good on going game to help people learn how to play.
With that said I would love more supplementary books that aren't adventures that I'm never going to use.
That's what the Encounters/Adventure League program was supposed to foster, but with the last couple of seasons, Wizards basically cut off game stores from free access to those adventures and the support packets that my LGS used to receive all but vanished. I run the Encounters program for my store and we've made due the best we could, but participation took a big drop once we stopped being able to easily provide for our players.
It would be nice to have another campaign book though, I hear you on that.
Not another adventure module, but a campaign book for the Forgotten Realms, containing all of the lore, details on cities, major npcs, details on the Gods & their follows (more than the default paragraph in the current books).
Maybe accompanying slim book for the DM only, containing a whole load of adventure hooks for them to build off.
I guess I'm thinking back to how much I loved the original D&D Gazetteers and how useful they were when the campaign headed to one of the major towns/cities or another place on the map.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I agree with you stormnight. I feel like in several years Forgotten Realms is going to be well forgotten as the material is not easily available without buying a ton of books for older editions.
Oh, I agree that book bloat was an issue but what I was saying is eventually, just by existing for any significant amount of time there's going to be book bloat regardless. True Wizard's can try and slow the pace down for as long as possible but again that's only a temporary fix. My problem is with the campaign-sized adventures, do I appreciate what I'm getting? Yes, I like that there is tons of content to cherry pick from and the production values have been great all around but my issue is drowning in all of the available content already.
I think Tales of the Yawning Portal was a step in the right direction with adventures to choose from that were easy to incorporate into a narrative or just work as one and done's
Gosh, this is a tough one. I have the three books and that's all I'm really using. I'm running a homebrew with my kids and that's it. There is a store in my area that is supposed to be part of the Adventurer's League, but I don't ever seem to have the time to get down there.
If I could just wave a magic wand I'd keep the three sourcebooks and publish core rulebooks for each of the worlds we know and love. Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms etc.
I'm thinking way back to 2nd Ed. when they had all these specialized books and optional rules come out. I could only buy so much and in retrospect they didn't add much to the game. I mean other than headaches. There always seemed to be more to buy, more to catch up on. I think my eyes were bigger than my stomach on a lot of things.
Honestly I'm not sure what I want to see out of WotC. I'm waiting for that one product or products to come along and fill a need or answer a question I didn't even know I had.
I'd love to see more "stuff" but I accept the reasons we're not seeing more.
Also, I feel that there's an interesting if unofficia vibe that not every character needs a unique class. It's what characters do that makes it interesting,not what they are.
An interesting challenge will be how a setting that is less inclusive is handled. Like Dragonlance, that probably would need to remove some classes, races, and archetypes. That could be a challenge.
I'm pretty positive that they have all the D20 modern books on the shelf. I can check tonight and PM you a picture later if you'd like.
Sure. No rush though. I'm going to be moving in about a month and am making plans to take the GRE and whatnot.
I'm absolutely not concerned about the business model at all.
Small staff? Slow release schedule? Well done products that do make it to retail???
That all sounds like a business model that can profit smartly, and sustain for a good long while. Which is exactly what I want from Wizards of the Coast and Dungeons & Dragons. I am very happy with 5e and completely uninterested in hearing anything about a 6e until somewhere in the next decade.
I agree, glut will happen, but if our glut hits in say 2022... well that's great! Having been at this for a few editions, the slow pace on 5e is sensible. It means the few books released sell well as we aren't choosing between six WotC books each month. We are either buying Yawning Portal, or we aren't. On the business side more profit per book means better margin. More profit from one book while five others flounder or break even means low margins.
This is a smart business approach and will keep Hasbro accountants and investors eyes on other parts of the greater corporate structure. D&D gets to be a "Hit or exceeded profit goals." line item on the shareholder statement and nothing more. That's perfection.
Yeah, I'd like a shiny campaign book but I'm happier doing it myself and buying the slowly paced out books. They are worth it and I can see this going on, profitably, for years.
DM'ing in 2e was madness. There were so many damn books to keep up with and every player had a favorite and it just got overwhelming. 3E had that with the d20 license too. You spent most of your time as a DM saying "No" to things vs finding great ways to use them because you couldn't keep up (well I couldn't). 5e? I've got three campaigns and am writing a fourth. I'm spending fair money on my hobby, loving the results, and keeping up.
I like this business plan. :)
I would prefer more resource books. I don't purchase published adventures.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master