I have yet to meet more than a handful of novels set in RPG worlds where I couldn't hear the dice rolling as I read. I liked a few Dark Sun novels when that world first started, and I liked the original Dragonlance and DL Twins trilogies back when I was a kid, but the little I read of the FR stuff was enough. I think that's part of the problem that someone like Salvatore faces--you are constrained to writing in a world, and with mechanics, that you aren't free as an author to play around with. There's a base level of 'derivative' built into the concept of writing in someone else's world (or a shared world).
In some ways yes. But I was pouring over some of Salvatores fight scenes last night while a friend and I were working out how to explain how to write a fight scene.
In my chapter 3 which I haven't posted here. I have a very different way of doing a fight scene, and, when helping my friend with his, we finally were able to define some features that really explain what makes them so different from authors like Salvatore.
Salvatore basically just builds a fight as a sequence with a 1step cadence.
A attacked once. B attacked once. C defended B.
But I've been writing a lot of pages of battles now for a while and, I think, perfecting it.
My better battles (in Heart of the Drow I think I hit my best) are a combination of a 2-step sequence to keep a cadence while interjecting what I call "instances".
2-step sequences are like:
A did an attack, while attacking stuff happens or exposition elaborates.
Sometimes you throw in a 3-step such as:
A did an attack, B, defending, returned a blow.
Instances are a whole other ball of wax but I'm really proud of them.
You describe the single sequence but from A, B and C's perspective, so that in a final sentence you tie together all the actions into one picture in the reader's imagination.
These basic building blocks, I think, has a potential to transform fight scenes in the written word. I've never seen it before, and I'm starting to look for them in better known battle authors. Like Game of Thrones.
I know I won't find it in Salvatores work. He's a straight up 1-step sequence author.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
He definitely is, but the thread began as a commentary about how you felt drow were a lame race that didn't make sense and turned into "all of that is true because of R.A. Salvatore". Honestly I feel like the bulk of drow politics have been other authors building off of Salvatore's foundation. He mostly writes about stuff on Faerûn and less below it.
I'm beginning to think this thread is a thinly-veiled rant against R.A. Salvatore.
So I went to the rules here to search for drow. Not sure if I just lack the books or why I couldnt search it in dndbeyond? But there goes my hope's of getting page counts from the rule books online. Haha.
But also I watched these youtubers and was underwhelmed. I'll rewatch them shortly and pick holes at them too. But not sure of all their sources.
Let me start with the last link "How to kill your party with the Drow."
When bouncing off my ideas of the matriarchal version of the Drow with some female companions of mine, the first complaint I got; when explaining the generalities of their matriarchal society from DnD using this guy as the source; was that it sounded like the type of matriarchal society an incel would think is matriarchal. (No offense to us nerds lol)
My first defense of this was "well it's just straight up role reveral".
And she tore me apart from there.
That was her point. Drow matrons are just men without the genitalia.
There is nothing matriarchal about the society.
NOTHING.
Calling a Male a female because he has a ****** still makes him a Male.
And women perceive that really gratingly.
So, I was forced, by my conversation with some girlfriends about this one topic alone (completely apart from Salvatore) to confront the fact that to make a Matriarchal society would require more thoughtfulness than "women in charge".
The Marvel equivalent of "Hulk Smash".
Talking excitedly as the guy does about the society being matriarchal doesn't change the fact that women not into dnd and not exposed to it seem to disagree, and with sound reasoning.
I'm still trying to work on this problem, since as a man I can't simply think how a woman would do things. However what I want to see avoided is the "hulk smash" solution.
I am contemplating a better solution to describing a matriarchal society.
Well the drow are a bit more than just matriarchal; they're aggressively misandrist too boot. It's one thing to have a classiest society, but a sexist, racist, and religiously-divided society? IRL cultures with those problems didn't last either.
AJ Pickett who I think is fantastic says drow society is a mafia family run by a woman. Ok, but is that true?
Is that what we see in Salvatore's books?
Is that how drow matrons should behave?
So heres where I'm at with potential solutions so far...
An actual evil matriarch society. I'm not looking for good drow I think Drizzt is trash. Go be an elf. Calling someone a drow but he doesn't live as a drow is just another version of dances with wolves or Avatar. White man saves the natives....again.
Scholars call this orientalism. European perspective of other culture's history dominates even that culture's view of itself.
Anyway, I digress, my solution in a nutshell is to have a Drow society that actually thinks it's doing good.
And it rationalizes that its doing good.
And its goddess loves them.
And their goddess has the best interests for not only them but ALL the creatures beneath them that they care for as their dominion.
Now you start to see the creation of a matron.
A motherly figure who watches over her children, who nurtures their wellbeing keeping them on the right path.
Because any other way to live leads to suffering.
Even though most of that suffering is circular as a result of their draconian society.
Impossible to achieve with Lolth. Who is like a troll just inflicting pain on insects.
Another example of changes I'm working on to build a relatable Drow society is the courtship relationship between Drow and Drowess.
I can't even imagine how in the described dnd version there even is courtship. Maybe they mate more like chickens where the rooster just rapes the hen.
But, I am taking inspiration from the Spartan courtship where the man steals his lover from her father in the middle of the night and it is shameful if he is caught.
Only now it's more the woman entreating the man to sneak out with her.
This is very relatable and the man can be seen as more passive like a playboy while the woman is more active like an heiress.
And we can do away with the absurdities of what ever fiendishness Mezzoberozan would concoct.
In dnd's drow, any of their mating rituals would have to be absurd or contradictory. Either they are in a violent society full of ****, or they are not. One is absurd, the other is contrary to their level of described evil.
Well the drow are a bit more than just matriarchal; they're aggressively misandrist too boot. It's one thing to have a classiest society, but a sexist, racist, and religiously-divided society? IRL cultures with those problems didn't last either.
For hundreds of years we do see problems like that creep in. In fact I think one of the best facsimiles for the drow is the strict Muslim society.
While its instead mysoginist, the continuous religious reinforcement of their ways fits well. Also their zealous battle style.
I dont intend to reimagine the drow as muslims, but it has some meaningful parallels.
The Thugee of India is another one. A literal death cult that survived for hundreds of years. They had to kill people to satiate their god.
The Vikings are a good example how an otherwise passive religion can be perverted into a violent one, the movement lasted sometime before the 700s until the 1000s. But Norse religion was not originally intended that only those who die in battle go to Valhalla.
So you start to see analogues to where societies can definitely warp from human normatives.
Carthage is another. It believed that sacrificing nobles and children were what Baal wanted. Sacrificing lesser born was like giving Baal the garbage. Why would he want your crippled son, when he could have your perfect strong healthy boy?
That society survived that way for about 600 years.
Romans had human sacrifice in the form of Gladiators but hated other nations for their human sacrifice.
Gladiators were in fact a human sacrifice to the gods from Campania and the Romans fully adopted it, requiring games with human versus human during all their religious festivals.
Yet the Romans in their very legalistic way figured that somehow wasnt the same thing as just killing someone for their gods festivals.
Therefore another interesting analogue to build a brutal Drow society from.
An actual evil matriarch society. I'm not looking for good drow I think Drizzt is trash. Go be an elf. Calling someone a drow but he doesn't live as a drow is just another version of dances with wolves or Avatar. White man saves the natives....again.
Your reference is misguided. Drizzt was created years before either of those movies. Drizzt also makes no attempt to save his people from themselves.
Over the course of this thread you have made one glaringly obvious mistake. Between the time of Dizzt 's incarnation and now, an incredibly huge amount of societal change has taken place. Since the books are already done (10-20 years), they can't change to fit current culture.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I can't even imagine how in the described dnd version there even is courtship. Maybe they mate more like chickens where the rooster just rapes the hen.
But, I am taking inspiration from the Spartan courtship where the man steals his lover from her father in the middle of the night and it is shameful if he is caught.
Only now it's more the woman entreating the man to sneak out with her.
This is very relatable and the man can be seen as more passive like a playboy while the woman is more active like an heiress.
No woman ever, especially in a position of power would have trouble getting a man into her bed.
The last quoted sentence bears on subject matter that has been around for quite a long time. You stated that you had conversations with girlfriends, you could ask them about it, as it cannot nor should it be, discussed on these forums.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
In some ways yes. But I was pouring over some of Salvatores fight scenes last night while a friend and I were working out how to explain how to write a fight scene.
In my chapter 3 which I haven't posted here. I have a very different way of doing a fight scene, and, when helping my friend with his, we finally were able to define some features that really explain what makes them so different from authors like Salvatore.
Salvatore basically just builds a fight as a sequence with a 1step cadence.
A attacked once. B attacked once. C defended B.
But I've been writing a lot of pages of battles now for a while and, I think, perfecting it.
My better battles (in Heart of the Drow I think I hit my best) are a combination of a 2-step sequence to keep a cadence while interjecting what I call "instances".
2-step sequences are like:
A did an attack, while attacking stuff happens or exposition elaborates.
Sometimes you throw in a 3-step such as:
A did an attack, B, defending, returned a blow.
Instances are a whole other ball of wax but I'm really proud of them.
You describe the single sequence but from A, B and C's perspective, so that in a final sentence you tie together all the actions into one picture in the reader's imagination.
These basic building blocks, I think, has a potential to transform fight scenes in the written word. I've never seen it before, and I'm starting to look for them in better known battle authors. Like Game of Thrones.
I know I won't find it in Salvatores work. He's a straight up 1-step sequence author.
The problem I see in general is when authors who are gamers approach fight scenes as if they are games. It shows up in so many ways--two enemies squaring off and almost never having other factors intervene unless they are dramatic interventions, A swings then B swings the A swings then B swings, every attack 'cuts' or 'nicks' or even hits the warrior (where after a full battle, everyone would be covered in 20-30 cuts, which is unrealistic to the extreme), even fights being laid out as fairly adjudicated all the time is 'gamey'. In the real world, the toughest warrior can sometimes be killed by the absolute noob with a lucky shot.
Heck, for my tastes, even paying attention to every little sword stroke is monotonous. Big Warrior is fighting his way through Drone Bad Guys to get to the Big Bad Guy--there is no need for every sword stroke and parry between Warrior and every Drone to be meticulously detailed over 3 and a half pages. Big Warrior mows through them, you can write that in two sentences. And you don't even need to pay attention to actual blows. Then spend your time on the details of the fight that really matters.
Roger Zelazny was really great at hitting the right balance there. Hours of grand battles pass by in a short paragraph, and the duel between two lifelong enemies that lasts one minute takes pages. And the careful details are important if they are both skilled--riposte, stop-thrust, etc. If it's a grappling brawl, each little body movement isn't the important part. And...avoiding talking about each little move is really good for authors who just aren't very knowledgeable about fighting--which is a lot of them. It's been a looooooong time since I studied fencing, I wouldn't be comfortable myself describing the details of a duel between two fencing masters. :)
No woman ever, especially in a position of power would have trouble getting a man into her bed.
This is, sorry, just flat out false...at least the part before the 'especially'. There are no women in the world who can't find sexual partners? Is that the opinion of women you know? Because I know several who would want to take issue with that claim. :)
The 'power' part, that may be right. If it's powerful enough.
No woman ever, especially in a position of power would have trouble getting a man into her bed.
This is, sorry, just flat out false...at least the part before the 'especially'. There are no women in the world who can't find sexual partners? Is that the opinion of women you know? Because I know several who would want to take issue with that claim. :)
The 'power' part, that may be right. If it's powerful enough.
Why? Again, we are placing current societal norms upon a completely fictional universe conceived over 20 years ago. Part of the reason your friends would have trouble is responsibility, safety and consequence. If you throw those out the window, it makes finding a partner ridiculously easy. Drow are run by priests, so there are no STDs, no unwanted pregnancies (They find partners for the purpose of getting pregnant in the first place), no responsibility, deformed children are tossed out with the trash.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Whoops, forgot about emotions. If there is no emotional attachment on either side, it makes finding a partner extremely easy.
There still has to be attraction, regardless of societal norms regarding what counts as attractive. And that's physical, plus social attractiveness. There are going to be people, women included, that will be considered unattractive--either by personality or by social norms--by a society's standards regardless of what society you pick. There is nothing magical about women that makes them immune to being found unattractive.
An actual evil matriarch society. I'm not looking for good drow I think Drizzt is trash. Go be an elf. Calling someone a drow but he doesn't live as a drow is just another version of dances with wolves or Avatar. White man saves the natives....again.
Your reference is misguided. Drizzt was created years before either of those movies. Drizzt also makes no attempt to save his people from themselves.
Over the course of this thread you have made one glaringly obvious mistake. Between the time of Dizzt 's incarnation and now, an incredibly huge amount of societal change has taken place. Since the books are already done (10-20 years), they can't change to fit current culture.
What dude? Lol
"White man saves the natives" is as old as 1700s White mans burden literature.
I just gave you two familiar examples.
Tarzan is another one from 1910s.
Jungle Book is an example of Orientalism.
The man who would be king.
This is nothing new lol.
Its irrelevant that Drizzt doesnt try to save his people. It's a story about Drow written from the perspective of NON-DROW.
Same as dances with wolves is about Native Americans written entirely from the perspective of a white man.
Whoops, forgot about emotions. If there is no emotional attachment on either side, it makes finding a partner extremely easy.
There is nothing magical about women that makes them immune to being found unattractive.
We just have to agree to disagree because you're getting hung up on your societal baggage. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's perfectly normal.
The OP stated that he found it ridiculous that Drow women could grab some man to partner with. He is under the wrong impression that only men can and should choose a partner.
Whoops, forgot about emotions. If there is no emotional attachment on either side, it makes finding a partner extremely easy.
There is nothing magical about women that makes them immune to being found unattractive.
We just have to agree to disagree because you're getting hung up on your societal baggage. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's perfectly normal.
The OP stated that he found it ridiculous that Drow women could grab some man to partner with. He is under the wrong impression that only men can and should choose a partner.
Attraction isn't my particular 'social baggage'. I'm not holding anyone to the standards of my particular society. I'm merely claiming that all societies have notions of attractiveness. Those notions change, but they exist. This isn't me holding up my society as a lens to view other societies through--it's a brute fact about all societies. Go ask the anthropologists. And finding sexual partners depends in large part on those notions. It's the simple fact that some people, in any culture, will not meet that culture's attractiveness standards to a minimum degree. And then the fact that there is nothing about women that inherently helps them meet a society's standards.
You seem to think either that some societies have existed--or could exist--without standards of attractiveness, or that women somehow are not held to those cultural standards, or that for some reason a woman's ability to find sexual partners has nothing to do with her perceived attractiveness. All three of these claims are false.
I just had a funny thought. You know what D&D society is actually chaotic evil and manages just fine? Orcs. Orcs work together perfectly well. They have little religious conflict, infrequent in-fighting, and everyone is raised with the same ideals and how best to realize them.
I wonder if drow would find the harmony of that "lesser" race offensive...
This has gotten a bit heated, so this is a friendly reminder that disagreements are ok, but remember that we're all D&D fans, so please don't be mean to anyone else.
I liked drow best when this was all we knew about them "Drow: The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users."
Then came Module G3, Hall of the Fire Giant King and gave a page and a half of details, mostly about the properties of drow equipment, drow combat abilities and such. With Module D3 Vault of the Drow we finally got to see the drow homeland, a vast underground cavern. We got glimpses of drow society. The female Clerics seemed to be at the top of the social order. There were 16 merchant houses that spent a lot of time raiding each other. There were slaves. There were a number of monster races mingling freely on the streets of the drow city. Lolth the spider demon goddess was worshipped. Still not a lot of information to go on. Lots of room left for DM creativity. Of course it was also all set in the World of Greyhawk. We got more about Lolth in Q! Queen of the Demonweb Pits, along with a really cool map. But still drow were not overly cast as a strict matriarchal society that oppressed the males. Male drow were frequently encountered as guard patrols and soldiers.
The drow were a case of less is more. They were great when they were mysterious villains who were mostly just shadows of legend.
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In some ways yes. But I was pouring over some of Salvatores fight scenes last night while a friend and I were working out how to explain how to write a fight scene.
In my chapter 3 which I haven't posted here. I have a very different way of doing a fight scene, and, when helping my friend with his, we finally were able to define some features that really explain what makes them so different from authors like Salvatore.
Salvatore basically just builds a fight as a sequence with a 1step cadence.
A attacked once. B attacked once. C defended B.
But I've been writing a lot of pages of battles now for a while and, I think, perfecting it.
My better battles (in Heart of the Drow I think I hit my best) are a combination of a 2-step sequence to keep a cadence while interjecting what I call "instances".
2-step sequences are like:
A did an attack, while attacking stuff happens or exposition elaborates.
Sometimes you throw in a 3-step such as:
A did an attack, B, defending, returned a blow.
Instances are a whole other ball of wax but I'm really proud of them.
You describe the single sequence but from A, B and C's perspective, so that in a final sentence you tie together all the actions into one picture in the reader's imagination.
These basic building blocks, I think, has a potential to transform fight scenes in the written word. I've never seen it before, and I'm starting to look for them in better known battle authors. Like Game of Thrones.
I know I won't find it in Salvatores work. He's a straight up 1-step sequence author.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
I'm beginning to think this thread is a thinly-veiled rant against R.A. Salvatore.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
Nah it doesnt have to be. But I started that earlier when diving into some of his work.
We can bring up whatever you want.
It's not my fault hes the largest body of work on the drow in D&D.
Rule books in 5e devote what. 15 pages to the drow? Rough estimate.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
He definitely is, but the thread began as a commentary about how you felt drow were a lame race that didn't make sense and turned into "all of that is true because of R.A. Salvatore". Honestly I feel like the bulk of drow politics have been other authors building off of Salvatore's foundation. He mostly writes about stuff on Faerûn and less below it.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
So I went to the rules here to search for drow. Not sure if I just lack the books or why I couldnt search it in dndbeyond? But there goes my hope's of getting page counts from the rule books online. Haha.
But also I watched these youtubers and was underwhelmed. I'll rewatch them shortly and pick holes at them too. But not sure of all their sources.
https://youtu.be/soOX8pB8KB8
https://youtu.be/9avJnhS5OsM
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Let me start with the last link "How to kill your party with the Drow."
When bouncing off my ideas of the matriarchal version of the Drow with some female companions of mine, the first complaint I got; when explaining the generalities of their matriarchal society from DnD using this guy as the source; was that it sounded like the type of matriarchal society an incel would think is matriarchal. (No offense to us nerds lol)
My first defense of this was "well it's just straight up role reveral".
And she tore me apart from there.
That was her point. Drow matrons are just men without the genitalia.
There is nothing matriarchal about the society.
NOTHING.
Calling a Male a female because he has a ****** still makes him a Male.
And women perceive that really gratingly.
So, I was forced, by my conversation with some girlfriends about this one topic alone (completely apart from Salvatore) to confront the fact that to make a Matriarchal society would require more thoughtfulness than "women in charge".
The Marvel equivalent of "Hulk Smash".
Talking excitedly as the guy does about the society being matriarchal doesn't change the fact that women not into dnd and not exposed to it seem to disagree, and with sound reasoning.
I'm still trying to work on this problem, since as a man I can't simply think how a woman would do things. However what I want to see avoided is the "hulk smash" solution.
I am contemplating a better solution to describing a matriarchal society.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Well the drow are a bit more than just matriarchal; they're aggressively misandrist too boot. It's one thing to have a classiest society, but a sexist, racist, and religiously-divided society? IRL cultures with those problems didn't last either.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
AJ Pickett who I think is fantastic says drow society is a mafia family run by a woman. Ok, but is that true?
Is that what we see in Salvatore's books?
Is that how drow matrons should behave?
So heres where I'm at with potential solutions so far...
An actual evil matriarch society. I'm not looking for good drow I think Drizzt is trash. Go be an elf. Calling someone a drow but he doesn't live as a drow is just another version of dances with wolves or Avatar. White man saves the natives....again.
Scholars call this orientalism. European perspective of other culture's history dominates even that culture's view of itself.
Anyway, I digress, my solution in a nutshell is to have a Drow society that actually thinks it's doing good.
And it rationalizes that its doing good.
And its goddess loves them.
And their goddess has the best interests for not only them but ALL the creatures beneath them that they care for as their dominion.
Now you start to see the creation of a matron.
A motherly figure who watches over her children, who nurtures their wellbeing keeping them on the right path.
Because any other way to live leads to suffering.
Even though most of that suffering is circular as a result of their draconian society.
Impossible to achieve with Lolth. Who is like a troll just inflicting pain on insects.
Another example of changes I'm working on to build a relatable Drow society is the courtship relationship between Drow and Drowess.
I can't even imagine how in the described dnd version there even is courtship. Maybe they mate more like chickens where the rooster just rapes the hen.
But, I am taking inspiration from the Spartan courtship where the man steals his lover from her father in the middle of the night and it is shameful if he is caught.
Only now it's more the woman entreating the man to sneak out with her.
This is very relatable and the man can be seen as more passive like a playboy while the woman is more active like an heiress.
And we can do away with the absurdities of what ever fiendishness Mezzoberozan would concoct.
In dnd's drow, any of their mating rituals would have to be absurd or contradictory. Either they are in a violent society full of ****, or they are not. One is absurd, the other is contrary to their level of described evil.
For hundreds of years we do see problems like that creep in. In fact I think one of the best facsimiles for the drow is the strict Muslim society.
While its instead mysoginist, the continuous religious reinforcement of their ways fits well. Also their zealous battle style.
I dont intend to reimagine the drow as muslims, but it has some meaningful parallels.
The Thugee of India is another one. A literal death cult that survived for hundreds of years. They had to kill people to satiate their god.
The Vikings are a good example how an otherwise passive religion can be perverted into a violent one, the movement lasted sometime before the 700s until the 1000s. But Norse religion was not originally intended that only those who die in battle go to Valhalla.
So you start to see analogues to where societies can definitely warp from human normatives.
Carthage is another. It believed that sacrificing nobles and children were what Baal wanted. Sacrificing lesser born was like giving Baal the garbage. Why would he want your crippled son, when he could have your perfect strong healthy boy?
That society survived that way for about 600 years.
Romans had human sacrifice in the form of Gladiators but hated other nations for their human sacrifice.
Gladiators were in fact a human sacrifice to the gods from Campania and the Romans fully adopted it, requiring games with human versus human during all their religious festivals.
Yet the Romans in their very legalistic way figured that somehow wasnt the same thing as just killing someone for their gods festivals.
Therefore another interesting analogue to build a brutal Drow society from.
Without just making them Borg
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
Your reference is misguided. Drizzt was created years before either of those movies. Drizzt also makes no attempt to save his people from themselves.
Over the course of this thread you have made one glaringly obvious mistake. Between the time of Dizzt 's incarnation and now, an incredibly huge amount of societal change has taken place. Since the books are already done (10-20 years), they can't change to fit current culture.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
No woman ever, especially in a position of power would have trouble getting a man into her bed.
The last quoted sentence bears on subject matter that has been around for quite a long time. You stated that you had conversations with girlfriends, you could ask them about it, as it cannot nor should it be, discussed on these forums.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The problem I see in general is when authors who are gamers approach fight scenes as if they are games. It shows up in so many ways--two enemies squaring off and almost never having other factors intervene unless they are dramatic interventions, A swings then B swings the A swings then B swings, every attack 'cuts' or 'nicks' or even hits the warrior (where after a full battle, everyone would be covered in 20-30 cuts, which is unrealistic to the extreme), even fights being laid out as fairly adjudicated all the time is 'gamey'. In the real world, the toughest warrior can sometimes be killed by the absolute noob with a lucky shot.
Heck, for my tastes, even paying attention to every little sword stroke is monotonous. Big Warrior is fighting his way through Drone Bad Guys to get to the Big Bad Guy--there is no need for every sword stroke and parry between Warrior and every Drone to be meticulously detailed over 3 and a half pages. Big Warrior mows through them, you can write that in two sentences. And you don't even need to pay attention to actual blows. Then spend your time on the details of the fight that really matters.
Roger Zelazny was really great at hitting the right balance there. Hours of grand battles pass by in a short paragraph, and the duel between two lifelong enemies that lasts one minute takes pages. And the careful details are important if they are both skilled--riposte, stop-thrust, etc. If it's a grappling brawl, each little body movement isn't the important part. And...avoiding talking about each little move is really good for authors who just aren't very knowledgeable about fighting--which is a lot of them. It's been a looooooong time since I studied fencing, I wouldn't be comfortable myself describing the details of a duel between two fencing masters. :)
This is, sorry, just flat out false...at least the part before the 'especially'. There are no women in the world who can't find sexual partners? Is that the opinion of women you know? Because I know several who would want to take issue with that claim. :)
The 'power' part, that may be right. If it's powerful enough.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Why? Again, we are placing current societal norms upon a completely fictional universe conceived over 20 years ago. Part of the reason your friends would have trouble is responsibility, safety and consequence. If you throw those out the window, it makes finding a partner ridiculously easy. Drow are run by priests, so there are no STDs, no unwanted pregnancies (They find partners for the purpose of getting pregnant in the first place), no responsibility, deformed children are tossed out with the trash.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Whoops, forgot about emotions. If there is no emotional attachment on either side, it makes finding a partner extremely easy.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
There still has to be attraction, regardless of societal norms regarding what counts as attractive. And that's physical, plus social attractiveness. There are going to be people, women included, that will be considered unattractive--either by personality or by social norms--by a society's standards regardless of what society you pick. There is nothing magical about women that makes them immune to being found unattractive.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
What dude? Lol
"White man saves the natives" is as old as 1700s White mans burden literature.
I just gave you two familiar examples.
Tarzan is another one from 1910s.
Jungle Book is an example of Orientalism.
The man who would be king.
This is nothing new lol.
Its irrelevant that Drizzt doesnt try to save his people. It's a story about Drow written from the perspective of NON-DROW.
Same as dances with wolves is about Native Americans written entirely from the perspective of a white man.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
We just have to agree to disagree because you're getting hung up on your societal baggage. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's perfectly normal.
The OP stated that he found it ridiculous that Drow women could grab some man to partner with. He is under the wrong impression that only men can and should choose a partner.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Attraction isn't my particular 'social baggage'. I'm not holding anyone to the standards of my particular society. I'm merely claiming that all societies have notions of attractiveness. Those notions change, but they exist. This isn't me holding up my society as a lens to view other societies through--it's a brute fact about all societies. Go ask the anthropologists. And finding sexual partners depends in large part on those notions. It's the simple fact that some people, in any culture, will not meet that culture's attractiveness standards to a minimum degree. And then the fact that there is nothing about women that inherently helps them meet a society's standards.
You seem to think either that some societies have existed--or could exist--without standards of attractiveness, or that women somehow are not held to those cultural standards, or that for some reason a woman's ability to find sexual partners has nothing to do with her perceived attractiveness. All three of these claims are false.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I just had a funny thought. You know what D&D society is actually chaotic evil and manages just fine? Orcs. Orcs work together perfectly well. They have little religious conflict, infrequent in-fighting, and everyone is raised with the same ideals and how best to realize them.
I wonder if drow would find the harmony of that "lesser" race offensive...
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I liked drow best when this was all we knew about them "Drow: The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users."
Then came Module G3, Hall of the Fire Giant King and gave a page and a half of details, mostly about the properties of drow equipment, drow combat abilities and such. With Module D3 Vault of the Drow we finally got to see the drow homeland, a vast underground cavern. We got glimpses of drow society. The female Clerics seemed to be at the top of the social order. There were 16 merchant houses that spent a lot of time raiding each other. There were slaves. There were a number of monster races mingling freely on the streets of the drow city. Lolth the spider demon goddess was worshipped. Still not a lot of information to go on. Lots of room left for DM creativity. Of course it was also all set in the World of Greyhawk. We got more about Lolth in Q! Queen of the Demonweb Pits, along with a really cool map. But still drow were not overly cast as a strict matriarchal society that oppressed the males. Male drow were frequently encountered as guard patrols and soldiers.
The drow were a case of less is more. They were great when they were mysterious villains who were mostly just shadows of legend.