My bias here is that rolling is just more fun for stats.
When I use the standard array or 27 point buy I find that it really makes race choice more significant. I, for instance, had no issue in 3e or Pathfinder I had no issue taking a not optimal race for a particular class and having that primary stat at 16. But in 5e with the standard array or 27 point buy. If you pick a race that doesn't offer a bonus to the primary stat you are hopping into a class with a 15 at level one. Sure by level 4 you can bump it but that bump becomes really necessary and you are still going to lag behind in attack or spell DC those players at the table who picked a race with the right bonus.
I am realizing that 5e wanted to bake in a slower curve by design but it really hit me while designing a character recently. I loved the flavAor of a Scourge Aasimar Sun Soul Monk. The synergy storytelling wise seemed awesome. But then I started shifting numbers around and realized that while I loved that boost to CON I had no boost to WIS or DEX. Looking at that 14 or 15 in my primary hit hard. Now when the time came for 4th level came. I am definitely not going to take a feat because I can finally get my stat up. Had I rolled it is very likely I could have hit a 16, 17 or even an 18 and put it in one of the primary stats and my racial bonus would be gravy keeping my dump stat from garbage or making my secondary stats higher.
In my group we always roll stats and we have a system: you get 18 and an 8 automatically and roll the next 4 and reroll the lowest taking higher of the two. Do this 3 times and pick the best set. You're almost guaranteed good starting stats. In my case since I play 2 or 3 characters at once and often change them every few levels to try different ideas and homebrew things I even have a personal array that I can use instead - this was achieved before we had our house rules and was a standard 4d6 drop lowest six times: and I got 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 11 and get to use this for the campaign - but only this campaign.
We like having high stats because it really lets us make use of our abilities and our dice rolls normally suck a lot (we nearly got TPKd before this rule because we had "average" stats and kept rolling low, it was supposed to be an easy encounter).
Our DM has no problems with our high starting stats and we're all overloaded with magic items (two legendaries at level 14) - and yet we still have difficulty in encounters, because difficulty is determined by the DM, not the stats. You could have a 30 in every stat and a DM can still make you have a difficult encounter.
So, talk to your DM and consider stat rolls or higher point buy amounts.
In your situation, starting with 15's in your dexterity and wisdom will let you use an ASI at 4th level to bump both of them up to 16. Since monks are dependent on two different stats, they're much less likely to take feats anyway. Even if you start with 16 in both your dexterity and wisdom you'll still be using 4 of your ASI's to max out both skills.
If the concept looks fun, go for it! Unless you're playing in the adventurer's league or with a group that is almost exclusively focused on combat having a bonus to hit that's 1 lower than optimal isn't a deal breaker. Plus if you have a friendly DM you'll probably be able to find a magic item that will bump up one of your two primary stats for you.
I have had decent luck using a rolling variation that seems to be popular in my circle of games.
Roll five d6's and add together the three highest numbers in that roll, then record that number.
Do this seven times.
Remove the lowest complete total, keeping the other six recorded totals.
Dispense point totals to whichever ability score based on what you want.
This seems like it could generate overpowered ability scores at level one, but there is also the chance that you could Yahtzee five 1's with those d6's twice, and end up with some really bad scores in general. I rolled for a Mountain Dwarf Paladin in my first campaign and rolled two 18's, and placed them in STR and CON, with Racial trait bonuses, I have 20 in STR and CON now, but my other scores aren't as high (except Charisma sitting as a respectable 17).
AL doesn't roll for stats. They do the following. For AL, it makes sense to me to keep everyone on even playing field to start.
Step 3: Determine Ability Scores You can generate your character’s ability scores using one of the following methods:
Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
Variant: Customizing Ability Scores option on page 13 of the Player’s Handbook.
For my home games we always roll. 4D6 Drop the lowest, place as desired. I don't allow stats 5 or below, I will eyeball the stats and sometimes let them make adjustments. Reroll, you keep what you get etc. I do that case by case.
My bias here is that rolling is just more fun for stats.
When I use the standard array or 27 point buy I find that it really makes race choice more significant. I, for instance, had no issue in 3e or Pathfinder I had no issue taking a not optimal race for a particular class and having that primary stat at 16. But in 5e with the standard array or 27 point buy. If you pick a race that doesn't offer a bonus to the primary stat you are hopping into a class with a 15 at level one. Sure by level 4 you can bump it but that bump becomes really necessary and you are still going to lag behind in attack or spell DC those players at the table who picked a race with the right bonus.
I am realizing that 5e wanted to bake in a slower curve by design but it really hit me while designing a character recently. I loved the flavAor of a Scourge Aasimar Sun Soul Monk. The synergy storytelling wise seemed awesome. But then I started shifting numbers around and realized that while I loved that boost to CON I had no boost to WIS or DEX. Looking at that 14 or 15 in my primary hit hard. Now when the time came for 4th level came. I am definitely not going to take a feat because I can finally get my stat up. Had I rolled it is very likely I could have hit a 16, 17 or even an 18 and put it in one of the primary stats and my racial bonus would be gravy keeping my dump stat from garbage or making my secondary stats higher.
What if you roll nothing higher than a 13 then you need to choose a race that offers a bonus to your primary start to get a +2, and if a couple of people in your party throw an 18 and choose a race with a +2 bonus and are +5 to their primary stat at level 1 you have a very uneven group.
Of course if you roll nothing higher than a 13 many DM will allow you to re-roll but that raises the question how low is too low and is it explained before the role or fudged afterwards.
Fewer DMs will force a re-roll if someone rolls extremely well but that can also run the fun for the other players and leave the overpowered one guilty.
I have played a game with an enhanced array (forgotten exactly but it was something like 16 15 14 12 10 8) this allowed you to have a +3 mod at level 1 without a race bonus, on the other hand it was tempting to get a +2 racial bonus for the +4 modifier restriction your race even further. (One fix to this is standard array but not allowing any 18s after racial bonuses (and feat bonuses for vhumans)
Another approach I read somewhere is you take 18 playing cards (I think it was two 2s and four each of 3s 4s 5s and 6s) shuffle them and place the first 6 in a row, then look at the 7th and choose which of the six cards to put it on, then look at he 8th and put it on one of the remaining 5. After the 12th card has been placed on the one remaining card the 13th can again be put on any of the piles and so on. The sum of the card on each of the 6 piles is hen your ability scores. This gives a certain degree of parity among the group (everyone has a total of 76 for their ability scores) but it takes a bit of luck to get an 18.
I hate rolling for stats. I do it for every character I make when I make them just to see what they might have gotten. The latest one I made - a Water Genasi Fighter - I rolled 4 12's and 2 11's. Totally boring character if I kept them.
Instead I use point buy. I find I much prefer the consistency of it. I would like to see an alternative point buy that allows stats going down to a 5 and up to 16 though. I really like seeing very low stats. They make for a very good flaw in a character.
I feel the OPs problem with point buy would be handily solved if the max starting stat was AFTER Racial modifiers.
That way your main stat isn't penalized by not having the right race, just as its easier for them to hit max its their dump stats that will be less ideal, and thats much less important. (and can have some fun role playing bits "X worked out really hard, neglecting his Y, but it paid off and now they say hes as strong as any Z"
From a bounded accuracy slower progression angle I get why they wanted 15 before racial mods. It just makes picking a non-optimal race a harder sell to myself. At the end of the day it is just a 1 point difference overall it just feels bigger. Part of that is legacy thinking from 3e or Pathfinder where if you optimized you had an 18 out the gate or a 20 if you had a higher point buy. In those systems, I was more than willing to pick a non-ideal race and start with a 16. But 15 feels like a great number for a secondary stat.
I much prefer 5e so I think it is really just getting acclimated to the fact that 16 is a good 1st level stat and 15 not that far behind.
I prefer point buy or standard array, because I think character creation should be an exact science. You should, within limits, be able to make precisely what you want and not be at the mercy of randomization.
I feel the OPs problem with point buy would be handily solved if the max starting stat was AFTER Racial modifiers.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but the max starting stat IS after racial modifiers. If you do standard array, put a 15 in a stat, and have a +2 to that stat, you finish with a 17.
it is very likely I could have hit a 16, 17 or even an 18
It's even more likely that you not roll anything higher than a 13, making you 'subpar' across the board.
Here's the thing. The difference between 15 and 16 is 5%. That's it. I refuse to believe that a 5% difference in success suddenly renders a character useless, obsolete, or unplayable. It makes no sense. It's an absurd overreaction.
Second thing: It's the GM's job to provide appropriate encounters for the group. This includes taking things like this into account, so in the end, it shouldn't matter anyway.
Since I mostly DM newbies and kids, I always ask them to use Standard Array for their first characters. It just makes it go a lot faster and it's fair. I can quickly check their stats before a game to make sure they're "getting" the system and their character sheet. I allow Point Buy as an option for more advanced players who know what they want.
I've had DM's who were super into rolling and would insist on it, but I found a lot of my table mates would fudge a lot in this process. Or if they did roll honestly and got bad rolls, they'd be in a bad mood for session 0 since they felt set up for failure. It has just caused bad feelings/superiority complex in groups I've been in but maybe I've just been particularly unlucky.
I feel the OPs problem with point buy would be handily solved if the max starting stat was AFTER Racial modifiers.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but the max starting stat IS after racial modifiers. If you do standard array, put a 15 in a stat, and have a +2 to that stat, you finish with a 17.
Right. What if you want to play a Gnome Sorcerer? You have a 15 Cha. Period. Sure at 4th level you can bump it by one and take some feats. Or bump it by 2 or bump it and something else. But very likely you are not going to take any feat that gives no stat bonus.
Point being this method prevents superhuman stats but it makes some race choices painful.
Most recently I was making a Scourge Aasimar Monk. I really wanted the Scourge ability and story behind the character my wife suggested really fits aasimar. So when I rolled the character it was no problem. I dropped an 18 in Dex a 16 in Wisdom and the Cha bonus bumped my 10 to 12. The +1 Con pushed it up to a higher modifier. Great monk.
When I recreated the character for a different game that required point buy or standard array it was a completely different experience. Level 1 had me sitting at a 15 Dex and a 15 Wis.
Ive always been a 4d6 drop lowest kind of guy but I also eye my players sheets when they are done and we go from there. Remember if you are worried about being useless/bad in encounters talk to your DM.
In my group we always roll stats and we have a system: you get 18 and an 8 automatically and roll the next 4 and reroll the lowest taking higher of the two. Do this 3 times and pick the best set. You're almost guaranteed good starting stats. In my case since I play 2 or 3 characters at once and often change them every few levels to try different ideas and homebrew things I even have a personal array that I can use instead - this was achieved before we had our house rules and was a standard 4d6 drop lowest six times: and I got 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 11 and get to use this for the campaign - but only this campaign.
We like having high stats because it really lets us make use of our abilities and our dice rolls normally suck a lot (we nearly got TPKd before this rule because we had "average" stats and kept rolling low, it was supposed to be an easy encounter).
Our DM has no problems with our high starting stats and we're all overloaded with magic items (two legendaries at level 14) - and yet we still have difficulty in encounters, because difficulty is determined by the DM, not the stats. You could have a 30 in every stat and a DM can still make you have a difficult encounter.
So, talk to your DM and consider stat rolls or higher point buy amounts.
I have been a roll 4d6 kind of guy since 1st edition, I might use this method for the game I plan on running in the future.
I feel the OPs problem with point buy would be handily solved if the max starting stat was AFTER Racial modifiers.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but the max starting stat IS after racial modifiers. If you do standard array, put a 15 in a stat, and have a +2 to that stat, you finish with a 17.
The max is 15 before racial, no mater how many points you are willing to put into one stat you can't go higher than 15 without racials.
What if you couldn't go higher than 15 even with racials.
so if your race gave +2 con, you can't put more than 13 points into con, but that saves you points to put elsewhere, only meaning an optimal race has a few extra points to be more rounded with.
:( But as I check the math on this, I realize that 5e point buy does not scale up point cost the higher the stat, (its always 1 point to increase, weather you are at 10 or 14 already).
So all it would do in 5e is make every race "gain X stat points", ah well, it was worth a thought.
:( But as I check the math on this, I realize that 5e point buy does not scale up point cost the higher the stat, (its always 1 point to increase, weather you are at 10 or 14 already).
My bias here is that rolling is just more fun for stats.
When I use the standard array or 27 point buy I find that it really makes race choice more significant. I, for instance, had no issue in 3e or Pathfinder I had no issue taking a not optimal race for a particular class and having that primary stat at 16. But in 5e with the standard array or 27 point buy. If you pick a race that doesn't offer a bonus to the primary stat you are hopping into a class with a 15 at level one. Sure by level 4 you can bump it but that bump becomes really necessary and you are still going to lag behind in attack or spell DC those players at the table who picked a race with the right bonus.
I am realizing that 5e wanted to bake in a slower curve by design but it really hit me while designing a character recently. I loved the flavAor of a Scourge Aasimar Sun Soul Monk. The synergy storytelling wise seemed awesome. But then I started shifting numbers around and realized that while I loved that boost to CON I had no boost to WIS or DEX. Looking at that 14 or 15 in my primary hit hard. Now when the time came for 4th level came. I am definitely not going to take a feat because I can finally get my stat up. Had I rolled it is very likely I could have hit a 16, 17 or even an 18 and put it in one of the primary stats and my racial bonus would be gravy keeping my dump stat from garbage or making my secondary stats higher.
In my group we always roll stats and we have a system: you get 18 and an 8 automatically and roll the next 4 and reroll the lowest taking higher of the two. Do this 3 times and pick the best set. You're almost guaranteed good starting stats. In my case since I play 2 or 3 characters at once and often change them every few levels to try different ideas and homebrew things I even have a personal array that I can use instead - this was achieved before we had our house rules and was a standard 4d6 drop lowest six times: and I got 18, 18, 17, 16, 16 and 11 and get to use this for the campaign - but only this campaign.
We like having high stats because it really lets us make use of our abilities and our dice rolls normally suck a lot (we nearly got TPKd before this rule because we had "average" stats and kept rolling low, it was supposed to be an easy encounter).
Our DM has no problems with our high starting stats and we're all overloaded with magic items (two legendaries at level 14) - and yet we still have difficulty in encounters, because difficulty is determined by the DM, not the stats. You could have a 30 in every stat and a DM can still make you have a difficult encounter.
So, talk to your DM and consider stat rolls or higher point buy amounts.
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In your situation, starting with 15's in your dexterity and wisdom will let you use an ASI at 4th level to bump both of them up to 16. Since monks are dependent on two different stats, they're much less likely to take feats anyway. Even if you start with 16 in both your dexterity and wisdom you'll still be using 4 of your ASI's to max out both skills.
If the concept looks fun, go for it! Unless you're playing in the adventurer's league or with a group that is almost exclusively focused on combat having a bonus to hit that's 1 lower than optimal isn't a deal breaker. Plus if you have a friendly DM you'll probably be able to find a magic item that will bump up one of your two primary stats for you.
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I have had decent luck using a rolling variation that seems to be popular in my circle of games.
Roll five d6's and add together the three highest numbers in that roll, then record that number.
Do this seven times.
Remove the lowest complete total, keeping the other six recorded totals.
Dispense point totals to whichever ability score based on what you want.
This seems like it could generate overpowered ability scores at level one, but there is also the chance that you could Yahtzee five 1's with those d6's twice, and end up with some really bad scores in general. I rolled for a Mountain Dwarf Paladin in my first campaign and rolled two 18's, and placed them in STR and CON, with Racial trait bonuses, I have 20 in STR and CON now, but my other scores aren't as high (except Charisma sitting as a respectable 17).
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I'm not playing AL, but does that only allow for point buy? Just curious.
Much that once was is lost.
Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear.
AL doesn't roll for stats. They do the following. For AL, it makes sense to me to keep everyone on even playing field to start.
Step 3: Determine Ability Scores You can generate your character’s ability scores using one of the following methods:
For my home games we always roll. 4D6 Drop the lowest, place as desired. I don't allow stats 5 or below, I will eyeball the stats and sometimes let them make adjustments. Reroll, you keep what you get etc. I do that case by case.
What if you roll nothing higher than a 13 then you need to choose a race that offers a bonus to your primary start to get a +2, and if a couple of people in your party throw an 18 and choose a race with a +2 bonus and are +5 to their primary stat at level 1 you have a very uneven group.
Of course if you roll nothing higher than a 13 many DM will allow you to re-roll but that raises the question how low is too low and is it explained before the role or fudged afterwards.
Fewer DMs will force a re-roll if someone rolls extremely well but that can also run the fun for the other players and leave the overpowered one guilty.
I have played a game with an enhanced array (forgotten exactly but it was something like 16 15 14 12 10 8) this allowed you to have a +3 mod at level 1 without a race bonus, on the other hand it was tempting to get a +2 racial bonus for the +4 modifier restriction your race even further. (One fix to this is standard array but not allowing any 18s after racial bonuses (and feat bonuses for vhumans)
Another approach I read somewhere is you take 18 playing cards (I think it was two 2s and four each of 3s 4s 5s and 6s) shuffle them and place the first 6 in a row, then look at the 7th and choose which of the six cards to put it on, then look at he 8th and put it on one of the remaining 5. After the 12th card has been placed on the one remaining card the 13th can again be put on any of the piles and so on. The sum of the card on each of the 6 piles is hen your ability scores. This gives a certain degree of parity among the group (everyone has a total of 76 for their ability scores) but it takes a bit of luck to get an 18.
My luck:
DM: "What are your stats from the cards?"
Me: "A 5, a 12, a 9, a draw four, blackjack and a joker."
Much that once was is lost.
Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear.
I hate rolling for stats. I do it for every character I make when I make them just to see what they might have gotten. The latest one I made - a Water Genasi Fighter - I rolled 4 12's and 2 11's. Totally boring character if I kept them.
Instead I use point buy. I find I much prefer the consistency of it.
I would like to see an alternative point buy that allows stats going down to a 5 and up to 16 though. I really like seeing very low stats. They make for a very good flaw in a character.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I feel the OPs problem with point buy would be handily solved if the max starting stat was AFTER Racial modifiers.
That way your main stat isn't penalized by not having the right race, just as its easier for them to hit max its their dump stats that will be less ideal, and thats much less important. (and can have some fun role playing bits "X worked out really hard, neglecting his Y, but it paid off and now they say hes as strong as any Z"
From a bounded accuracy slower progression angle I get why they wanted 15 before racial mods. It just makes picking a non-optimal race a harder sell to myself. At the end of the day it is just a 1 point difference overall it just feels bigger. Part of that is legacy thinking from 3e or Pathfinder where if you optimized you had an 18 out the gate or a 20 if you had a higher point buy. In those systems, I was more than willing to pick a non-ideal race and start with a 16. But 15 feels like a great number for a secondary stat.
I much prefer 5e so I think it is really just getting acclimated to the fact that 16 is a good 1st level stat and 15 not that far behind.
I prefer point buy or standard array, because I think character creation should be an exact science. You should, within limits, be able to make precisely what you want and not be at the mercy of randomization.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but the max starting stat IS after racial modifiers. If you do standard array, put a 15 in a stat, and have a +2 to that stat, you finish with a 17.
It's even more likely that you not roll anything higher than a 13, making you 'subpar' across the board.
Here's the thing. The difference between 15 and 16 is 5%. That's it. I refuse to believe that a 5% difference in success suddenly renders a character useless, obsolete, or unplayable. It makes no sense. It's an absurd overreaction.
Second thing: It's the GM's job to provide appropriate encounters for the group. This includes taking things like this into account, so in the end, it shouldn't matter anyway.
Since I mostly DM newbies and kids, I always ask them to use Standard Array for their first characters. It just makes it go a lot faster and it's fair. I can quickly check their stats before a game to make sure they're "getting" the system and their character sheet. I allow Point Buy as an option for more advanced players who know what they want.
I've had DM's who were super into rolling and would insist on it, but I found a lot of my table mates would fudge a lot in this process. Or if they did roll honestly and got bad rolls, they'd be in a bad mood for session 0 since they felt set up for failure. It has just caused bad feelings/superiority complex in groups I've been in but maybe I've just been particularly unlucky.
Right. What if you want to play a Gnome Sorcerer? You have a 15 Cha. Period. Sure at 4th level you can bump it by one and take some feats. Or bump it by 2 or bump it and something else. But very likely you are not going to take any feat that gives no stat bonus.
Point being this method prevents superhuman stats but it makes some race choices painful.
Most recently I was making a Scourge Aasimar Monk. I really wanted the Scourge ability and story behind the character my wife suggested really fits aasimar. So when I rolled the character it was no problem. I dropped an 18 in Dex a 16 in Wisdom and the Cha bonus bumped my 10 to 12. The +1 Con pushed it up to a higher modifier. Great monk.
When I recreated the character for a different game that required point buy or standard array it was a completely different experience. Level 1 had me sitting at a 15 Dex and a 15 Wis.
Ive always been a 4d6 drop lowest kind of guy but I also eye my players sheets when they are done and we go from there. Remember if you are worried about being useless/bad in encounters talk to your DM.
I have been a roll 4d6 kind of guy since 1st edition, I might use this method for the game I plan on running in the future.
The max is 15 before racial, no mater how many points you are willing to put into one stat you can't go higher than 15 without racials.
What if you couldn't go higher than 15 even with racials.
so if your race gave +2 con, you can't put more than 13 points into con, but that saves you points to put elsewhere, only meaning an optimal race has a few extra points to be more rounded with.
:( But as I check the math on this, I realize that 5e point buy does not scale up point cost the higher the stat, (its always 1 point to increase, weather you are at 10 or 14 already).So all it would do in 5e is make every race "gain X stat points", ah well, it was worth a thought.Edit: Wow I fail at reading tonight
But it does though.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).