My DM is fighting me on this one but the wording in the PHB makes it sound like a legit course of action on one turn unless I’m missing something. I want a second opinion because I might be crazy. Here it is...
So I was looking at the PHB and it had this to say about dual wielding in combat. With the feat (pg. 165) you can “use two one-handed melee weapons when they’re not light and draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.” On pg. 190 you can “in tandem with your movement and action draw or sheathe a sword.” On pg. 189 you can “take a bonus action when a feature states you can and choose when to take it during your turn unless specified.” Lastly on pg. 195 you can “use a bonus action to attack with a different melee weapon in the other hand.” So hypothetically speaking, based on those game mechanics, at lvl 5 as a fighter with dual wielding and an extra attack I can make 2 two-handed weapon attacks using a versatile weapon then use my bonus action to make a one-handed attack using a different versatile weapon being able to draw or stow a sword in tandem with my action and movement. Am I missing something or does that sound about right?
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative
I read this as you must have the two weapons in your hands at the time you take the attack action. I’d argue you can do one 2-hand, then 2-weapon, not two 2-hand and a bonus action for an attack using the 2-weapon rule.
I get where you’re coming from. The assumption of the DW feat is to always use them simultaneously, but I can’t find any specific text in the book stating that it’s strictly exclusive to that assumption. Sure the damage might be marginal but with Champion you crit on an attack roll 19 & 20, then (on top of that) add a second fighting style at lvl 10 “GWF” and now, “When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or (“VERSATILE”) property for you to gain this benefit.” (pg. 72) The damage starts to add up even if marginally.
I guess the real point of topic is how do you define a “versatile” (1H/2H) weapon with the game mechanics of dual wielding “draw or stow 2 one handed weapons that ARE NOT LIGHT instead of one”, and then a free action to draw or stow a weapon (now 2 with DW) with a separate weapon in the off hand to attack as a bonus action since you could drop one hand and use both VERSATILE (1H/2H) as two 1H.
This is all strictly from the PHB and I’ve scanned the DM guide on it. I’m more or less curious based on those rules per the PHB. If you have a pg. number on why not that would be super useful. Thanks!
Forget the feat. Read the rules on 2-weapon fighting that I copy&pasted above. You cannot use the bonus action of 2-weapon fighting unless you attack with a weapon in one hand.
All the feat does to that rule is get rid of the word “light”.
Somebody explained it to me in a way I got it. The wording threw me off because a weapon “in” one hand is totally different then “with” one hand. A versatile weapon is only really “in” one hand looking at it functionally. I feel kind of silly but it’s still a plausible way to interpret the wording. Thanks for the assist.
The key is also that it says melee weapon in one hand and a different melee weapon in the other. Using a versatile weapon two-handed will have the same weapon in both hands.
Somebody explained it to me in a way I got it. The wording threw me off because a weapon “in” one hand is totally different then “with” one hand. A versatile weapon is only really “in” one hand looking at it functionally. I feel kind of silly but it’s still a plausible way to interpret the wording. Thanks for the assist.
If you are wielding a weapon with two hands, then you are holding the weapon in two hands.
The only weapon were this isn't obvious is bows, which aren't melee anyway.
The key is also that it says melee weapon in one hand and a different melee weapon in the other. Using a versatile weapon two-handed will have the same weapon in both hands.
I think the point was more:
- Beginning of round, versatile weapon in 2H, attack.
- move action: Versatile weapon in one hand only, draw a different 1H weapon
- Bonus attack with the weapon he just drew.
So they would indeed be different weapons.
And the rules on TWF:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
(i stroke out the "light" requirement, because he took the feat that removes it)
I agree that by RAW, you would probably need to have both weapons in hand during the original attack. I also agree you could make a "well, technically" case, but even if you could try and argue RAW, the RAI seems quite clear here.
Also, this combo would work only half the time, since you would end your turn with 2 weapons in hand, and would need to use your move action to stow a weapon the next round (by going attack, bonus action, move to stow 2nd weapon). So that's actually a 0.5 damage average increase, added micromanaging, looking like a powergamer, and also, it looks kinda dumb in combat to keep drawing and stowing the same weapon ? Lots of downside for not much upside.
Oh I see. Yeh - drawing the off-hand sword and one-handed attacking for the last Extra Attack to get the benefit. That is really cheesy - but I guess it's within the rules.
To address the specific question you asked in your original post, which seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, no, at 5th level you could not make two two-handed attacks with a versatile weapon and then use your bonus action to make a one-handed attack with a different weapon, not because of any issue with drawing or stowing, but because a two-handed attack does not satisfy the trigger for the two-weapon fighting feature, as has been discussed.
What you certainly COULD do is make ONE two-handed attack with a versatile weapon, make the Extra Attack using the same weapon but in one hand, and THEN make your TWF bonus action attack, presumable having drawn the second weapon during the second attack.
As you gain more extra attacks, you can use more two-handed attacks, as long as the last one, during which you draw the second weapon, is one-handed.
An additional point to consider, which makes this only viable on the first turn of combat if you already have your versatile weapon drawn, is that the Dual Wielder feat doesn’t let you make two separate draw/stow actions for free. It only lets you draw/stow two weapons with the single free interaction that everyone already gets. That is, you can’t draw one weapon and then, later in your in turn, draw a second without spending your entire action on the second draw. You have to handle both weapon interactions at the same time. Although, that’s a level of RAW granularity that many DMs, including me, would probably ignore.
What you certainly COULD do is make ONE two-handed attack with a versatile weapon, make the Extra Attack using the same weapon but in one hand, and THEN make your TWF bonus action attack, presumable having drawn the second weapon during the second attack.
I feel like this is a very litteral interpretation of the rules. But as you said, it only really works for the first round (well, actually, every odd-numbered round), requires you to have extra attack, and will only work on 1 less attack than what you can do.
As a DM I would not allow it, simply because this sort of bookeeping of the damage dice to use and which hands has what at which moment is tedious and, i believe, against the spirit of this edition. Other game systems have much more comprehensive set of rules for combat, and fit a lot more to this type of play. And I don't mean that negatively.
What you certainly COULD do is make ONE two-handed attack with a versatile weapon, make the Extra Attack using the same weapon but in one hand, and THEN make your TWF bonus action attack, presumable having drawn the second weapon during the second attack.
I feel like this is a very litteral interpretation of the rules. But as you said, it only really works for the first round (well, actually, every odd-numbered round), requires you to have extra attack, and will only work on 1 less attack than what you can do.
As a DM I would not allow it, simply because this sort of bookeeping of the damage dice to use and which hands has what at which moment is tedious and, i believe, against the spirit of this edition. Other game systems have much more comprehensive set of rules for combat, and fit a lot more to this type of play. And I don't mean that negatively.
I personally like the imagery of the attack description.
My character rushes in and makes a brutal overhead slice with both hands on his longsword. While my enemy is unbalanced I pull my longsword back towards myself, tearing into armor and flesh inside their guard as I free my shortsword for the coupe de grace. My final thrust with the shortsword finds it's mark and my enemy falls back, clutching his chest, eyes glassy and wide. Well fought brother, may the gods embrace you.
I personally like the imagery of the attack description.
My character rushes in and makes a brutal overhead slice with both hands on his longsword. While my enemy is unbalanced I pull my longsword back towards myself, tearing into armor and flesh inside their guard as I free my shortsword for the coupe de grace. My final thrust with the shortsword finds it's mark and my enemy falls back, clutching his chest, eyes glassy and wide. Well fought brother, may the gods embrace you.
And then you stow back your weapon and repeat this every 12 seconds.
As an opening blow, sure, I could accept it, that's bending the rules a bit, but why not. As a combat mechanic where a weapon gets stowed or drawn each turn, it seems...weird.
My DM is fighting me on this one but the wording in the PHB makes it sound like a legit course of action on one turn unless I’m missing something. I want a second opinion because I might be crazy. Here it is...
So I was looking at the PHB and it had this to say about dual wielding in combat. With the feat (pg. 165) you can “use two one-handed melee weapons when they’re not light and draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.” On pg. 190 you can “in tandem with your movement and action draw or sheathe a sword.” On pg. 189 you can “take a bonus action when a feature states you can and choose when to take it during your turn unless specified.” Lastly on pg. 195 you can “use a bonus action to attack with a different melee weapon in the other hand.” So hypothetically speaking, based on those game mechanics, at lvl 5 as a fighter with dual wielding and an extra attack I can make 2 two-handed weapon attacks using a versatile weapon then use my bonus action to make a one-handed attack using a different versatile weapon being able to draw or stow a sword in tandem with my action and movement. Am I missing something or does that sound about right?
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative
I read this as you must have the two weapons in your hands at the time you take the attack action. I’d argue you can do one 2-hand, then 2-weapon, not two 2-hand and a bonus action for an attack using the 2-weapon rule.
I interpret it the same way as Account_of_Holding. And that is definitely the way it is intended.
The text is fairly clear that you need to be holding both one-handed weapons at the same time to get the bonus action attack.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Besides what the others already pointed out, the increase in damage is so marginal it's not worth getting into a rules debate over with your DM.
Also, you'll look ridiculous.
I get where you’re coming from. The assumption of the DW feat is to always use them simultaneously, but I can’t find any specific text in the book stating that it’s strictly exclusive to that assumption. Sure the damage might be marginal but with Champion you crit on an attack roll 19 & 20, then (on top of that) add a second fighting style at lvl 10 “GWF” and now, “When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or (“VERSATILE”) property for you to gain this benefit.” (pg. 72) The damage starts to add up even if marginally.
I guess the real point of topic is how do you define a “versatile” (1H/2H) weapon with the game mechanics of dual wielding “draw or stow 2 one handed weapons that ARE NOT LIGHT instead of one”, and then a free action to draw or stow a weapon (now 2 with DW) with a separate weapon in the off hand to attack as a bonus action since you could drop one hand and use both VERSATILE (1H/2H) as two 1H.
This is all strictly from the PHB and I’ve scanned the DM guide on it. I’m more or less curious based on those rules per the PHB. If you have a pg. number on why not that would be super useful. Thanks!
Forget the feat. Read the rules on 2-weapon fighting that I copy&pasted above. You cannot use the bonus action of 2-weapon fighting unless you attack with a weapon in one hand.
All the feat does to that rule is get rid of the word “light”.
Somebody explained it to me in a way I got it. The wording threw me off because a weapon “in” one hand is totally different then “with” one hand. A versatile weapon is only really “in” one hand looking at it functionally. I feel kind of silly but it’s still a plausible way to interpret the wording. Thanks for the assist.
The key is also that it says melee weapon in one hand and a different melee weapon in the other. Using a versatile weapon two-handed will have the same weapon in both hands.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
If you are wielding a weapon with two hands, then you are holding the weapon in two hands.
The only weapon were this isn't obvious is bows, which aren't melee anyway.
I think the point was more:
- Beginning of round, versatile weapon in 2H, attack.
- move action: Versatile weapon in one hand only, draw a different 1H weapon
- Bonus attack with the weapon he just drew.
So they would indeed be different weapons.
And the rules on TWF:
(i stroke out the "light" requirement, because he took the feat that removes it)
I agree that by RAW, you would probably need to have both weapons in hand during the original attack. I also agree you could make a "well, technically" case, but even if you could try and argue RAW, the RAI seems quite clear here.
Also, this combo would work only half the time, since you would end your turn with 2 weapons in hand, and would need to use your move action to stow a weapon the next round (by going attack, bonus action, move to stow 2nd weapon). So that's actually a 0.5 damage average increase, added micromanaging, looking like a powergamer, and also, it looks kinda dumb in combat to keep drawing and stowing the same weapon ? Lots of downside for not much upside.
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Oh I see. Yeh - drawing the off-hand sword and one-handed attacking for the last Extra Attack to get the benefit. That is really cheesy - but I guess it's within the rules.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Again thanks everyone. That was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking.
To address the specific question you asked in your original post, which seems to have gotten lost in the discussion, no, at 5th level you could not make two two-handed attacks with a versatile weapon and then use your bonus action to make a one-handed attack with a different weapon, not because of any issue with drawing or stowing, but because a two-handed attack does not satisfy the trigger for the two-weapon fighting feature, as has been discussed.
What you certainly COULD do is make ONE two-handed attack with a versatile weapon, make the Extra Attack using the same weapon but in one hand, and THEN make your TWF bonus action attack, presumable having drawn the second weapon during the second attack.
As you gain more extra attacks, you can use more two-handed attacks, as long as the last one, during which you draw the second weapon, is one-handed.
An additional point to consider, which makes this only viable on the first turn of combat if you already have your versatile weapon drawn, is that the Dual Wielder feat doesn’t let you make two separate draw/stow actions for free. It only lets you draw/stow two weapons with the single free interaction that everyone already gets. That is, you can’t draw one weapon and then, later in your in turn, draw a second without spending your entire action on the second draw. You have to handle both weapon interactions at the same time. Although, that’s a level of RAW granularity that many DMs, including me, would probably ignore.
I feel like this is a very litteral interpretation of the rules. But as you said, it only really works for the first round (well, actually, every odd-numbered round), requires you to have extra attack, and will only work on 1 less attack than what you can do.
As a DM I would not allow it, simply because this sort of bookeeping of the damage dice to use and which hands has what at which moment is tedious and, i believe, against the spirit of this edition. Other game systems have much more comprehensive set of rules for combat, and fit a lot more to this type of play. And I don't mean that negatively.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
I personally like the imagery of the attack description.
My character rushes in and makes a brutal overhead slice with both hands on his longsword. While my enemy is unbalanced I pull my longsword back towards myself, tearing into armor and flesh inside their guard as I free my shortsword for the coupe de grace. My final thrust with the shortsword finds it's mark and my enemy falls back, clutching his chest, eyes glassy and wide. Well fought brother, may the gods embrace you.
And then you stow back your weapon and repeat this every 12 seconds.
As an opening blow, sure, I could accept it, that's bending the rules a bit, but why not. As a combat mechanic where a weapon gets stowed or drawn each turn, it seems...weird.
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Making use of one of the specific abilities of the Dual Wielder feat to draw/stow weapons doesn't seem weird to me. More work to track? For sure.