I am not un-empathetic, I can perfectly see a case being made for future copies of the physical books to be sold with a discount/coupon for the digital version of it, a one-time code applicable only once in one of the partnered digital distributors of D&D 5ed content, I'd be all up for it, since I love both physical and digital formats.
If WotC was selling a digital version of the books, this argument would have merit, but this digital product is sold by Curse, not by WotC, just like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have their own versions.
Are you suggesting that WotC should offer a discount applied to product from other companies? In your scheme above, would the code be redeemable only once at one online provider, or at all of them? How much of a discount?
Never mind the fact that it's already discounted! The cost of the physical PHB in a store is $49.95. The cost on DDB for the compendium is $19.99. That's a discount of $29.96! How much more of a discount do you want on top of that? And do you expect it from DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds, and any other third party resellers of digital content?
Remember that DDB, Roll20, and FG don't just take the content from WotC and slap it up. Each company has spent countless working hours creating their own way to deliver that content. DDB's is different from Roll20, which is done differently from Fantasy Grounds. Those companies should all expect to get paid for their labour + profit.
So...
1. How much more of a discount do you want on top of the $29.96 by which it is already discounted?
2. Should that discount be a one-time only discount (and you have to choose where to use it), or do you believe it should be applicable at ALL online providers? (Remember then that whatever you think the discount should be [$29.96 + X] would then be multiplied potentially at least three times, meaning a loss of up to $89.88 + (X x 3) )
EDIT: As has been pointed out to be before, the $29.99 price on DDB includes the ability to use the character builder with the full PHB. There is a compendium version of the PHB on DDB for only $19.99, which is a better comparison to the printed PHB since the printed PHB also does not come with a character builder, but is a reference book only.
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
What does WotC offering their own digital version have to do with anything? How would that change things? What option can you see?
What makes you think Curse, Roll20, and FG would not get paid? I think maybe you're focusing too much on specific dollar amounts. I'm talking about the existence or non-existence of certain price points. Just assume that all the values given to the price points would be enough for Curse, Roll20, and FG to still make money.
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
What does WotC offering their own digital version have to do with anything? How would that change things? What option can you see?
What makes you think Curse, Roll20, and FG would not get paid? I think maybe you're focusing too much on specific dollar amounts. I'm talking about the existence or non-existence of certain price points. Just assume that all the values given to the price points would be enough for Curse, Roll20, and FG to still make money.
No. Answer a simple question: What do you believe is fair to pay for the PHB Compendium (currently $19.99) on D&D Beyond.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
What does WotC offering their own digital version have to do with anything? How would that change things? What option can you see?
What makes you think Curse, Roll20, and FG would not get paid? I think maybe you're focusing too much on specific dollar amounts. I'm talking about the existence or non-existence of certain price points. Just assume that all the values given to the price points would be enough for Curse, Roll20, and FG to still make money.
No. Answer a simple question: What do you believe is fair to pay for the PHB Compendium (currently $19.99) on D&D Beyond.
First off, you're being demanding and I don't appreciate that. I'm half tempted to not indulge you. If I don't respond in the future just assume it's because your tone or attitude was too much for me, not because I don't have an answer. Swallowing my pride for now to keep the conversation going, and ignoring the word "fair" because lack of fairness is not my complaint. A price that would give me confidence in my purchase would be something less than a price point not recognizing proof of purchase (the entry user's price). Amount is not the issue for me but rather relative amount.
I am not un-empathetic, I can perfectly see a case being made for future copies of the physical books to be sold with a discount/coupon for the digital version of it, a one-time code applicable only once in one of the partnered digital distributors of D&D 5ed content, I'd be all up for it, since I love both physical and digital formats.
If WotC was selling a digital version of the books, this argument would have merit, but this digital product is sold by Curse, not by WotC, just like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have their own versions.
Are you suggesting that WotC should offer a discount applied to product from other companies? In your scheme above, would the code be redeemable only once at one online provider, or at all of them? How much of a discount?
Never mind the fact that it's already discounted! The cost of the physical PHB in a store is $49.95. The cost on DDB for the compendium is $19.99. That's a discount of $29.96! How much more of a discount do you want on top of that? And do you expect it from DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds, and any other third party resellers of digital content?
Remember that DDB, Roll20, and FG don't just take the content from WotC and slap it up. Each company has spent countless working hours creating their own way to deliver that content. DDB's is different from Roll20, which is done differently from Fantasy Grounds. Those companies should all expect to get paid for their labour + profit.
So...
1. How much more of a discount do you want on top of the $29.96 by which it is already discounted?
2. Should that discount be a one-time only discount (and you have to choose where to use it), or do you believe it should be applicable at ALL online providers? (Remember then that whatever you think the discount should be [$29.96 + X] would then be multiplied potentially at least three times, meaning a loss of up to $89.88 + (X x 3) )
EDIT: As has been pointed out to be before, the $29.99 price on DDB includes the ability to use the character builder with the full PHB. There is a compendium version of the PHB on DDB for only $19.99, which is a better comparison to the printed PHB since the printed PHB also does not come with a character builder, but is a reference book only.
Man, I was not asking for anything, I was just saying that I would not be mad if that happened in the future.
I have been on board with DDB from the start, I have all the books unlocked and pre-order anything available. If you look back I have been one of those people defending DDB and its current system from the very beginning, trying to reason with those asking to get the content here because they have the physical books in their library, I am not asking for it to change, I am just saying it could be nice, if anything to widen the user-base even more and appease those "demanding" stuff.
The specifics of how this could be done would be better left to WotC and its partners (DDB, Roll20, FG), but as I said in the bit you quoted, probably not clearly enough, it would be my opinion that the discount/unlock should be ONE time, ONE platform thing (again, I am not asking for it nor I pretend to provide a fool-proof version of it).
Other than that, you most certainly do not need to convince me that this is an unrealizable wet dream right now.
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
What does WotC offering their own digital version have to do with anything? How would that change things? What option can you see?
What makes you think Curse, Roll20, and FG would not get paid? I think maybe you're focusing too much on specific dollar amounts. I'm talking about the existence or non-existence of certain price points. Just assume that all the values given to the price points would be enough for Curse, Roll20, and FG to still make money.
No. Answer a simple question: What do you believe is fair to pay for the PHB Compendium (currently $19.99) on D&D Beyond.
First off, you're being demanding and I don't appreciate that. I'm half tempted to not indulge you. If I don't respond in the future just assume it's because your tone or attitude was too much for me, not because I don't have an answer. Swallowing my pride for now to keep the conversation going, and ignoring the word "fair" because lack of fairness is not my complaint. A price that would give me confidence in my purchase would be something less than a price point not recognizing proof of purchase (the entry user's price). Amount is not the issue for me but rather relative amount.
I am sorry Kreakdude, you have seen I try to be as reasonable as possible, but that's a non-answer.
mj, in his own way, asked you a very precise question: what would be, in your opinion, the sofspot of price for the compendium content (which is exactly a digital version of the books, with nothing else attached to it if not the cross-manual search) considering it currently is at 19.99$ (30$ below the price suggested by WotC themselves)?
It is not an unreasonable question, IMHO... I also believe the question I posted, that you have still not answered, was reasonable, so I'd invite you again to answer it, if you will.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Kreakdude, as Lek pointed out, you keep giving non-answers. I take your refusal to state an actual position (price you are willing to pay) as an admission that you aren't, in fact, serious about this discussion, but may simply be a troll.
A price that would give me confidence in my purchase
Please explain what you mean by "confidence in my purchase"? If you mean that you will never lose access to the digital version, then I have bad news for you. Not only will you very likely at some point lose access to the digital version, but your physical versions are not invincible either. If you meant something different, you'll have to elaborate.
a price point not recognizing proof of purchase (the entry user's price). Amount is not the issue for me but rather relative amount.
Price point relative to what? What price point would you accept as "recognizing proof of purchase" beyond the already steep $30 discount?
If you prefer to continue answering with non-answers, avoiding the questions, I will be content to know that everyone else reading this discussion can draw their own conclusions about your posts. And frankly, I'm not worried about whether or not you like my "tone" because I see in your posts an attitude of your own.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
mjsoctober I'm not trolling and it's pretty rude to accuse me of that. I think you're really just trying to get under my skin. You asked a bad question. Fairness is beside the point. Given your attempts to get under my skin and continual inability to understand what I'm trying to explain, I give up with you. Just believe whatever you want.
Lek are you referring to this question being unanswered?
So, I ask again: how is what you are asking any different than pretending to have a discount/be given a special edition of a D&D 5ed manual, given the only thing changing is aesthetic and possible quality of the materials involved (and I am applying your own logic from your message I posed this same question on from last page)?
I answered that one by saying that the difference is switching mediums.
I'm not trolling and it's pretty rude to accuse me of that. I think you're really just trying to get under my skin. You asked a bad question. Fairness is beside the point. Given your attempts to get under my skin and continual inability to understand what I'm trying to explain, I give up with you. Just believe whatever you want.
I am sorry, Kreakdude, but the thing is that you are not explaining yourself.
For every sensible question you are asked it seems you deflect and shift the attention to something else entirely, trying to render the question asked irrelevant and not providing a real answer to it. Again IT SEEMS, I am not accusing you of anything, but let me state this clear once more: you are not explaining yourself in a manner comprehensible by others. Undoubtedly in your head it all makes perfect sense and it is clear as dawn, but we are not in your head, and it seems your way of explaining your thoughts does not reach not only mj but I have to admit myself as well, possibly others.
I am not saying "go somewhere else", but what I am saying is: try to find another way to explain yourself in some other way, because what you have been doing so far it's clearly not working, not only to maybe convince some of us to agree with you, but to see your side of the fence entirely at times.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I'm not trolling and it's pretty rude to accuse me of that. I think you're really just trying to get under my skin. You asked a bad question. Fairness is beside the point. Given your attempts to get under my skin and continual inability to understand what I'm trying to explain, I give up with you. Just believe whatever you want.
I am sorry, Kreakdude, but the thing is that you are not explaining yourself.
For every sensible question you are asked it seems you deflect and shift the attention to something else entirely, trying to render the question asked irrelevant and not providing a real answer to it. Again IT SEEMS, I am not accusing you of anything, but let me state this clear once more: you are not explaining yourself in a manner comprehensible by others. Undoubtedly in your head it all makes perfect sense and it is clear as dawn, but we are not in your head, and it seems your way of explaining your thoughts does not reach not only mj but I have to admit myself as well, possibly others.
I am not saying "go somewhere else", but what I am saying is: try to find another way to explain yourself in some other way, because what you have been doing so far it's clearly not working, not only to maybe convince some of us to agree with you, but to see your side of the fence entirely at times.
Thanks for remaining level-headed about it. I could say the same thing though. After this many iterations and different ways I've explained it I think there's no way to get people to understand that do not want to understand. 20 pages ago I might have taken responsibility for my lack of ability to explain the situation (and I think I did), but I think at this point you guys have no excuse. And now we're just trying to blame each other which is pointless anyway. Maybe we'll try again in another 8 months.
I don't want new users to find this thread and come away thinking they should get any more than the existing $30 discount, so I want to debunk arguments that suggest they should. Some users seem unwilling to state a concrete alternative to the existing cost, so I believe we can discount those arguments.
You asked a bad question.
My questions were...
What do you believe is fair to pay for the PHB Compendium (currently $19.99) on D&D Beyond.
Please explain what you mean by "confidence in my purchase"?
What price point would you accept as "recognizing proof of purchase" beyond the already steep $30 discount?
Other users can decide themselves if my questions were bad. I think they were rather simple and straight forward.
I don't want new users to find this thread and come away thinking they should get any more than the existing $30 discount, so I want to debunk arguments that suggest they should. Some users seem unwilling to state a concrete alternative to the existing cost, so I believe we can discount those arguments.
Sounds like we have different goals that, from my end, don't seem to be exclusive.
ok your second question is a good one and is sucking me back in. Thanks for focusing on the discussion.
Confidence in the purchase. So within DDB when I buy a feat for $1.99 I know ahead of time that if I later decide that I want the PHB containing that feat that my previous purchase will be recognized. If it weren't recognized, I'd think again about spending the $1.99 on the feat because I don't want buyers remorse later. I'd want to choose now, before spending, if I want the feat by itself or if I want the whole PHB. I'd have to plan ahead more which causes indecision and fear of making the a bad decision since I cannot predict the future. DDB recognizing my individual feat purchase when making a later purchase removes that and gives me confidence in my purchase. Does it have the same effect on you? Can you relate to that?
Kreakdude, I want to apologize for how I came off in my earlier post. I think LeK summed it up when he explained how things are seeming in this discussion, but I can tell from your most recent posts that you are approaching this in good faith and you are not just trying to get a rise out of us. I was attempting to word it in a way that was not insulting, but still express my frustrations with this topic, and I can see that I missed the mark with that and was in the wrong. So again, I apologize and I mean no ill will.
I don't really have anything more to add that isn't just a rewording of what I have already said. I think there is enough here to where new users who see this thread (and have the patience to read it all lol) will have enough information to make their own choices with all of the information available.
I will say one last time that I'm happy with all of my purchases here, and as the service continues to improve, I only get more and more value out of it over time. Ultimately this hobby, at least to me, is about community, and no matter which way you choose to play, I hope your dice roll true and you have a great time.
lets start off by understanding what WotC is. they are a publisher, not a retailer. They do not sell to the public. Same as Random House and TOR books. they do not sell directly to the public. they publish the book, which a retailer purchases from them at a wholesale price which is way below the MSRP so that they in turn can sell it to hopefully make a profit. Once they sell to a retailer, they have limited control over price points except where law applies or specifics to that contract and they could vary by retailer or by the amount they purchase. You can see this in your typical B&M vs online retailer. So we all agree that the price is set by the retailer at this point? yes, the publisher sets the MSRP, but nothing stops anyone from going above or below that price. You use to see this every year during the Great Christmas most popular toy/console sales. They would offer low supplied items that demand became high and could overcharge MSRP as people were willing to pay it. then after a certain point, they would flood the market as "manufacturing" caught up and the price would drop to MSRP or in some cases lower.
Now, when we enter the digital aspect, lets look at Amazon as that is where i tend to shop online. Amazon owns both Kindle and the audio book store Audible, thus on some titles they can offer a discount if you purchased Kindle and then the Audible version, vice versa or both at the same time. Now what they will not do, is offer a discount on the Audible or Kindle version if you purchased the electronic/audio book someplace else. Why not? it is the same content in just a different medium correct? apple ibooks are still electronic after all? it is still the same publisher why do i not get the discount? Does this make sense to you?
Now back to WoTC, they are a publisher, not a retailer. Yes they own the intellectual property rights so they can license the use of their content out so that another company can offer in a different medium, but the companies have to pay for that on a per basis no matter what. So I understand what Kreakdude wants, but it just will not happen from a top level like WoTC. Again, they are a publisher and not a retailer to offer this. What i could see happening is that in the future you buy the physical from Amazon, you would get a code to use for DDB, but again, this only works if you purchase from Amazon and for DDB, not Roll20/FG. But also let it sink in that DDB is a ways off from Amazon as it has to go though Twitch then Curse and then DDB
I cannot fathom a way for WotC to accomplish what you are asking for as all these are separate companies, unlike my earlier example where Amazon owns both sides and have a deal to be able to do this. I understand you believe/feel/think that WotC has this almighty power to make it so, but it could be laws (price fixing for one, anti-competitive for another since they are top level) and the contracts would make it not able to do so. Plus the shear amount of overhead in tracking/maintenance of this would negate any willing reason to do it. they would have to create from the ground up a system to do this. I for one, would rather have WotC work on new products than take away resources to accomplish this. However, I would have no disagreement if they did go this route.
As i am not a fan of either Roll20 or FG, how do their electronic books compare to DDB? Is it like the compendium or more like the $29.99 with the toolset?
** as a side note, the only way i could see anything happening here would be in the form of a manufacturer rebate, you would still pay listed price, but would have to send in to get something back, however, it still comes down to proof of purchase and then you could only get it once and wouldn't be able to exchange mediums so i guess that would be out as well. **
** a second side note, the only time i can think of when WotC did become a retailer is when they tried out the subscription model for 4e and it almost put them into bankruptcy and pissed off their retailers who were now trying to compete against them for sales. maybe this is also why they will not do it. **
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Kreakdude, I want to apologize for how I came off in my earlier post. I think LeK summed it up when he explained how things are seeming in this discussion, but I can tell from your most recent posts that you are approaching this in good faith and you are not just trying to get a rise out of us. I was attempting to word it in a way that was not insulting, but still express my frustrations with this topic, and I can see that I missed the mark with that and was in the wrong. So again, I apologize and I mean no ill will.
I don't really have anything more to add that isn't just a rewording of what I have already said. I think there is enough here to where new users who see this thread (and have the patience to read it all lol) will have enough information to make their own choices with all of the information available.
I will say one last time that I'm happy with all of my purchases here, and as the service continues to improve, I only get more and more value out of it over time. Ultimately this hobby, at least to me, is about community, and no matter which way you choose to play, I hope your dice roll true and you have a great time.
Thanks so much. Respect level increased. Sorry for my part in bringing you to that point.
In rereading thoughts , kreakdude, what you really are asking for is a license purchase model. Where you purchased a physical book and thus would get a digital license for reduced/free that you can use anywhere (currently DDB/FG/Roll20)? However, if you wanted to use it in two spots, you either want a further reduced cost license or a 2nd one for free as well? Would that sum it up better? Then the further cost would be for the sites services/materials/enhancements/addons?
With all three being separate entities, they would to agree to work together and with WotC to make this happen.
WotC would have to implement a digital tracking system for the licenses.
this would in turn drive up the cost for both physical and digital. In the end , you could up paying more for this than you do now.
Could interfere with current agreements with retailers.
Confidence in the purchase. So within DDB when I buy a feat for $1.99 I know ahead of time that if I later decide that I want the PHB containing that feat that my previous purchase will be recognized. If it weren't recognized, I'd think again about spending the $1.99 on the feat because I don't want buyers remorse later. I'd want to choose now, before spending, if I want the feat by itself or if I want the whole PHB. I'd have to plan ahead more which causes indecision and fear of making the a bad decision since I cannot predict the future. DDB recognizing my individual feat purchase when making a later purchase removes that and gives me confidence in my purchase. Does it have the same effect on you? Can you relate to that?
This is how it is now. If you buy a feat for $1.99, that goes towards the total cost of the book. If you decide to buy the entire book later, it is already discounted by that much. Since it is already thus, I am unsure of your concern/complaint in this regard.
Would you say how much you think is appropriate for Curse to charge for their digital version of the PHB? Currently it is $19.99, which is almost $30 less than the cost of buying the physical version. Where this question is concerned I am still unclear about what it is you are wishing WotC and Curse would do differently?
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
In rereading thoughts , kreakdude, what you really are asking for is a license purchase model. Where you purchased a physical book and thus would get a digital license for reduced/free that you can use anywhere (currently DDB/FG/Roll20)? However, if you wanted to use it in two spots, you either want a further reduced cost license or a 2nd one for free as well? Would that sum it up better? Then the further cost would be for the sites services/materials/enhancements/addons?
With all three being separate entities, they would to agree to work together with WotC to make this happen.
WotC would have to implement a digital tracking system for the licenses.
this would in turn drive up the cost for both physical and digital. In the end , you could up paying more for this than you do now.
Could interfere with current agreements with retailers.
DDB has a digital tracking system for content purchased and they reportedly do successful business. But yes, regarding your other points it would be a monumental agreement to unite the clans during 5e where agreements without cross medium play have been arranged. It's not impossible, but more likely this can serve as a lesson learned for future editions (imo).
Confidence in the purchase. So within DDB when I buy a feat for $1.99 I know ahead of time that if I later decide that I want the PHB containing that feat that my previous purchase will be recognized. If it weren't recognized, I'd think again about spending the $1.99 on the feat because I don't want buyers remorse later. I'd want to choose now, before spending, if I want the feat by itself or if I want the whole PHB. I'd have to plan ahead more which causes indecision and fear of making the a bad decision since I cannot predict the future. DDB recognizing my individual feat purchase when making a later purchase removes that and gives me confidence in my purchase. Does it have the same effect on you? Can you relate to that?
This is how it is now. If you buy a feat for $1.99, that goes towards the total cost of the book. If you decide to buy the entire book later, it is already discounted by that much. Since it is already thus, I am unsure of your concern/complaint in this regard.
If you can't relate to this part then any other answers I would give you would not be helpful.
If WotC was selling a digital version of the books, this argument would have merit, but this digital product is sold by Curse, not by WotC, just like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have their own versions.
Are you suggesting that WotC should offer a discount applied to product from other companies? In your scheme above, would the code be redeemable only once at one online provider, or at all of them? How much of a discount?
Never mind the fact that it's already discounted! The cost of the physical PHB in a store is $49.95. The cost on DDB for the compendium is $19.99. That's a discount of $29.96! How much more of a discount do you want on top of that? And do you expect it from DDB, and Roll20, and Fantasy Grounds, and any other third party resellers of digital content?
Remember that DDB, Roll20, and FG don't just take the content from WotC and slap it up. Each company has spent countless working hours creating their own way to deliver that content. DDB's is different from Roll20, which is done differently from Fantasy Grounds. Those companies should all expect to get paid for their labour + profit.
So...
1. How much more of a discount do you want on top of the $29.96 by which it is already discounted?
2. Should that discount be a one-time only discount (and you have to choose where to use it), or do you believe it should be applicable at ALL online providers? (Remember then that whatever you think the discount should be [$29.96 + X] would then be multiplied potentially at least three times, meaning a loss of up to $89.88 + (X x 3) )
EDIT: As has been pointed out to be before, the $29.99 price on DDB includes the ability to use the character builder with the full PHB. There is a compendium version of the PHB on DDB for only $19.99, which is a better comparison to the printed PHB since the printed PHB also does not come with a character builder, but is a reference book only.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Lek I like your use of the word "medium". The ability to easily cross mediums is the main reason I want that price point. Well, the main reason is to instill confidence in my purchase, but it would instill confidence in me if I knew that if I enter (by spending in) one medium that I could switch to another medium as opposed to needing to re-enter the 2nd medium. To me, that's what's lacking in all the many other examples.
If WotC were offering their own Digital version, they I can see that option. But they don't. Curse, Roll20, and Fantasy grounds need to get paid, and as I've posted above, you're already getting a $29.96 discount from the print version by buying the compendium on DDB.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
What does WotC offering their own digital version have to do with anything? How would that change things? What option can you see?
What makes you think Curse, Roll20, and FG would not get paid? I think maybe you're focusing too much on specific dollar amounts. I'm talking about the existence or non-existence of certain price points. Just assume that all the values given to the price points would be enough for Curse, Roll20, and FG to still make money.
No. Answer a simple question: What do you believe is fair to pay for the PHB Compendium (currently $19.99) on D&D Beyond.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
First off, you're being demanding and I don't appreciate that. I'm half tempted to not indulge you. If I don't respond in the future just assume it's because your tone or attitude was too much for me, not because I don't have an answer. Swallowing my pride for now to keep the conversation going, and ignoring the word "fair" because lack of fairness is not my complaint. A price that would give me confidence in my purchase would be something less than a price point not recognizing proof of purchase (the entry user's price). Amount is not the issue for me but rather relative amount.
Man, I was not asking for anything, I was just saying that I would not be mad if that happened in the future.
I have been on board with DDB from the start, I have all the books unlocked and pre-order anything available. If you look back I have been one of those people defending DDB and its current system from the very beginning, trying to reason with those asking to get the content here because they have the physical books in their library, I am not asking for it to change, I am just saying it could be nice, if anything to widen the user-base even more and appease those "demanding" stuff.
The specifics of how this could be done would be better left to WotC and its partners (DDB, Roll20, FG), but as I said in the bit you quoted, probably not clearly enough, it would be my opinion that the discount/unlock should be ONE time, ONE platform thing (again, I am not asking for it nor I pretend to provide a fool-proof version of it).
Other than that, you most certainly do not need to convince me that this is an unrealizable wet dream right now.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I am sorry Kreakdude, you have seen I try to be as reasonable as possible, but that's a non-answer.
mj, in his own way, asked you a very precise question: what would be, in your opinion, the sofspot of price for the compendium content (which is exactly a digital version of the books, with nothing else attached to it if not the cross-manual search) considering it currently is at 19.99$ (30$ below the price suggested by WotC themselves)?
It is not an unreasonable question, IMHO... I also believe the question I posted, that you have still not answered, was reasonable, so I'd invite you again to answer it, if you will.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Kreakdude, as Lek pointed out, you keep giving non-answers. I take your refusal to state an actual position (price you are willing to pay) as an admission that you aren't, in fact, serious about this discussion, but may simply be a troll.
Please explain what you mean by "confidence in my purchase"? If you mean that you will never lose access to the digital version, then I have bad news for you. Not only will you very likely at some point lose access to the digital version, but your physical versions are not invincible either. If you meant something different, you'll have to elaborate.
Price point relative to what? What price point would you accept as "recognizing proof of purchase" beyond the already steep $30 discount?
If you prefer to continue answering with non-answers, avoiding the questions, I will be content to know that everyone else reading this discussion can draw their own conclusions about your posts. And frankly, I'm not worried about whether or not you like my "tone" because I see in your posts an attitude of your own.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
mjsoctober I'm not trolling and it's pretty rude to accuse me of that. I think you're really just trying to get under my skin. You asked a bad question. Fairness is beside the point. Given your attempts to get under my skin and continual inability to understand what I'm trying to explain, I give up with you. Just believe whatever you want.
Lek are you referring to this question being unanswered?
I answered that one by saying that the difference is switching mediums.
I am sorry, Kreakdude, but the thing is that you are not explaining yourself.
For every sensible question you are asked it seems you deflect and shift the attention to something else entirely, trying to render the question asked irrelevant and not providing a real answer to it.
Again IT SEEMS, I am not accusing you of anything, but let me state this clear once more: you are not explaining yourself in a manner comprehensible by others. Undoubtedly in your head it all makes perfect sense and it is clear as dawn, but we are not in your head, and it seems your way of explaining your thoughts does not reach not only mj but I have to admit myself as well, possibly others.
I am not saying "go somewhere else", but what I am saying is: try to find another way to explain yourself in some other way, because what you have been doing so far it's clearly not working, not only to maybe convince some of us to agree with you, but to see your side of the fence entirely at times.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Thanks for remaining level-headed about it. I could say the same thing though. After this many iterations and different ways I've explained it I think there's no way to get people to understand that do not want to understand. 20 pages ago I might have taken responsibility for my lack of ability to explain the situation (and I think I did), but I think at this point you guys have no excuse. And now we're just trying to blame each other which is pointless anyway. Maybe we'll try again in another 8 months.
I don't want new users to find this thread and come away thinking they should get any more than the existing $30 discount, so I want to debunk arguments that suggest they should. Some users seem unwilling to state a concrete alternative to the existing cost, so I believe we can discount those arguments.
My questions were...
Other users can decide themselves if my questions were bad. I think they were rather simple and straight forward.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Sounds like we have different goals that, from my end, don't seem to be exclusive.
ok your second question is a good one and is sucking me back in. Thanks for focusing on the discussion.
Confidence in the purchase. So within DDB when I buy a feat for $1.99 I know ahead of time that if I later decide that I want the PHB containing that feat that my previous purchase will be recognized. If it weren't recognized, I'd think again about spending the $1.99 on the feat because I don't want buyers remorse later. I'd want to choose now, before spending, if I want the feat by itself or if I want the whole PHB. I'd have to plan ahead more which causes indecision and fear of making the a bad decision since I cannot predict the future. DDB recognizing my individual feat purchase when making a later purchase removes that and gives me confidence in my purchase. Does it have the same effect on you? Can you relate to that?
Kreakdude, I want to apologize for how I came off in my earlier post. I think LeK summed it up when he explained how things are seeming in this discussion, but I can tell from your most recent posts that you are approaching this in good faith and you are not just trying to get a rise out of us. I was attempting to word it in a way that was not insulting, but still express my frustrations with this topic, and I can see that I missed the mark with that and was in the wrong. So again, I apologize and I mean no ill will.
I don't really have anything more to add that isn't just a rewording of what I have already said. I think there is enough here to where new users who see this thread (and have the patience to read it all lol) will have enough information to make their own choices with all of the information available.
I will say one last time that I'm happy with all of my purchases here, and as the service continues to improve, I only get more and more value out of it over time. Ultimately this hobby, at least to me, is about community, and no matter which way you choose to play, I hope your dice roll true and you have a great time.
lets start off by understanding what WotC is. they are a publisher, not a retailer. They do not sell to the public. Same as Random House and TOR books. they do not sell directly to the public. they publish the book, which a retailer purchases from them at a wholesale price which is way below the MSRP so that they in turn can sell it to hopefully make a profit. Once they sell to a retailer, they have limited control over price points except where law applies or specifics to that contract and they could vary by retailer or by the amount they purchase. You can see this in your typical B&M vs online retailer. So we all agree that the price is set by the retailer at this point? yes, the publisher sets the MSRP, but nothing stops anyone from going above or below that price. You use to see this every year during the Great Christmas most popular toy/console sales. They would offer low supplied items that demand became high and could overcharge MSRP as people were willing to pay it. then after a certain point, they would flood the market as "manufacturing" caught up and the price would drop to MSRP or in some cases lower.
Now, when we enter the digital aspect, lets look at Amazon as that is where i tend to shop online. Amazon owns both Kindle and the audio book store Audible, thus on some titles they can offer a discount if you purchased Kindle and then the Audible version, vice versa or both at the same time. Now what they will not do, is offer a discount on the Audible or Kindle version if you purchased the electronic/audio book someplace else. Why not? it is the same content in just a different medium correct? apple ibooks are still electronic after all? it is still the same publisher why do i not get the discount? Does this make sense to you?
Now back to WoTC, they are a publisher, not a retailer. Yes they own the intellectual property rights so they can license the use of their content out so that another company can offer in a different medium, but the companies have to pay for that on a per basis no matter what. So I understand what Kreakdude wants, but it just will not happen from a top level like WoTC. Again, they are a publisher and not a retailer to offer this. What i could see happening is that in the future you buy the physical from Amazon, you would get a code to use for DDB, but again, this only works if you purchase from Amazon and for DDB, not Roll20/FG. But also let it sink in that DDB is a ways off from Amazon as it has to go though Twitch then Curse and then DDB
I cannot fathom a way for WotC to accomplish what you are asking for as all these are separate companies, unlike my earlier example where Amazon owns both sides and have a deal to be able to do this. I understand you believe/feel/think that WotC has this almighty power to make it so, but it could be laws (price fixing for one, anti-competitive for another since they are top level) and the contracts would make it not able to do so. Plus the shear amount of overhead in tracking/maintenance of this would negate any willing reason to do it. they would have to create from the ground up a system to do this. I for one, would rather have WotC work on new products than take away resources to accomplish this. However, I would have no disagreement if they did go this route.
As i am not a fan of either Roll20 or FG, how do their electronic books compare to DDB? Is it like the compendium or more like the $29.99 with the toolset?
** as a side note, the only way i could see anything happening here would be in the form of a manufacturer rebate, you would still pay listed price, but would have to send in to get something back, however, it still comes down to proof of purchase and then you could only get it once and wouldn't be able to exchange mediums so i guess that would be out as well. **
** a second side note, the only time i can think of when WotC did become a retailer is when they tried out the subscription model for 4e and it almost put them into bankruptcy and pissed off their retailers who were now trying to compete against them for sales. maybe this is also why they will not do it. **
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Thanks so much. Respect level increased. Sorry for my part in bringing you to that point.
In rereading thoughts , kreakdude, what you really are asking for is a license purchase model. Where you purchased a physical book and thus would get a digital license for reduced/free that you can use anywhere (currently DDB/FG/Roll20)? However, if you wanted to use it in two spots, you either want a further reduced cost license or a 2nd one for free as well? Would that sum it up better? Then the further cost would be for the sites services/materials/enhancements/addons?
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
This is how it is now. If you buy a feat for $1.99, that goes towards the total cost of the book. If you decide to buy the entire book later, it is already discounted by that much. Since it is already thus, I am unsure of your concern/complaint in this regard.
Would you say how much you think is appropriate for Curse to charge for their digital version of the PHB? Currently it is $19.99, which is almost $30 less than the cost of buying the physical version. Where this question is concerned I am still unclear about what it is you are wishing WotC and Curse would do differently?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
DDB has a digital tracking system for content purchased and they reportedly do successful business. But yes, regarding your other points it would be a monumental agreement to unite the clans during 5e where agreements without cross medium play have been arranged. It's not impossible, but more likely this can serve as a lesson learned for future editions (imo).
If you can't relate to this part then any other answers I would give you would not be helpful.