Well then, Kreakdude, consider you are not buying the content at all. If you buy the physical PHB, you are paying for the Covers, the paper, the printing and distribution costs. If you buy from D&D Beyond, you are not paying for the content, you're paying for the labour that went into coding the site, and all other overhead of the business.
You got the content for free. No one is asking for you to pay for it twice.
I see you pop in from time to time to complain about the same thing. It's not going to change. There is no incentive for it to change. Whether you accept it or not, they are two different products; one is a book, the other is a web site. The content is irrelevant.
Now make with your counter-arguments, I'm bored and want need something to do. And for the record, I've been a part of this debate from the very beginning, as I'm sure you know if you've read all 26 pages.
No need to counter. You see it that way, that's ok for you. It's not wrong. I see it the other way. We don't need to convince each other or reconcile. Sorry to not appease your boredom :D. You're right that it may never change (I hope it does), but I do think there is an incentive. Maybe first and foremost is to get people like me to shut up? Also to provide the best user experience for as many users as possible. To not leave unspent money. We've been down this road too and yeah the numbers may or may not work out as long as enough people are willing to see it they way you see it, but that may change.
Kreakdue, this "To not leave unspent money. " makes no sense. It sounds like you think by letting people purchase one and get the other for free WotC would make more money??? Right now money is not being left unspent. Some people buy one or the other, some people buy both.
And I'll say it again for anyone starting at the last page instead of the beginning... if you order your PHB from Amazon, and buy the digital PHB on D&D Beyond, the combined cost is only a few dollars more than just buying the PHB at the full retail price in a store. In other words, by buying both online it would be like buying the PHB full price in a store and getting DDB for a drastically discounted price (or even free if you buy it with one of the fairly regular discount codes).
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Kreakdue, this "To not leave unspent money. " makes no sense. It sounds like you think by letting people purchase one and get the other for free WotC would make more money??? Right now money is not being left unspent. Some people buy one or the other, some people buy both.
And I'll say it again for anyone starting at the last page instead of the beginning... if you order your PHB from Amazon, and buy the digital PHB on D&D Beyond, the combined cost is only a few dollars more than just buying the PHB at the full retail price in a store. In other words, by buying both online it would be like buying the PHB full price in a store and getting DDB for a drastically discounted price (or even free if you buy it with one of the fairly regular discount codes).
When you say things like "purchase one and get the other for free" it shows me that you still do not grasp my perspective and that by now, after 27 pages, you never ever will. I'm not even going to bother trying to correct it for you.
To me it is more of those that feel because they bought some paper, they think they should get an electronic free as well.
So here is my counter offer. You want a PDF of the book? You want it for whatever reason and you want it free? take a straight razor to your book, remove the bindings and go scan it in yourself for your own personal use. I didn't see a single rule or agreement that would stop you from doing this. thus you have a physical (abet now in loose leaf fashion) and a pdf of the book.
You want a shelf and a pdf, then go buy two copies. I am sure the place you bought your first copy will not give you a 2nd copy for free.
Then you can grab each physical book as they come out and do the same. Oh, and you can buy it where ever your little heart desires to get to the price point you want, no comparisons at all.
But do not come back here and complain that it is not linked or have fancy tabs or OCR that allows you to search. tough cookie. You want all that for free? then you have to put up your sleeves and do the hard work yourself.
Don't want to cut up your book? then start typing away. no one is stopping you unless you try to sell it, then you will have a problem. Sure, it is hard work and not a lot of fun and it will not look like your book unless you have lots of free time and the knowledge to typeset, photoshop and all those other fancy words that deal with it, but ... it will be free.
Oh, you don't want to do all that hard and time consuming work yourself? Then go out and hire a professional to do it for you. i am sure that will be cheap.
Or you can just realize that DDB does not equal WOTC, the Physical book does not equal the digital platform here (this is much greater imho) and that you will have to purchase it again.
Until WOTC (not DDB) changes how it wants to do business (and the $500 platinum version of Waterdeep Heist may be a prelude to how this is done), there is nothing here that can be said or done to help with any of this.
and for reference, I am one of those that not only buys the physical copies (and alt covers when i can), but i also have the DM Year long subscription and legendary bundle.
Note: i have edited out a single word for my fellow enthusiast out of respect.
Cee, I wish that you and others would not use the word "entitled" in this conversation. In my corner of the world, "entitled" is one of those escalating/insulting words that only polarizes folks further, making honest respectful conversation that much harder. I am also distressed by your dismissive tone here. I have generally experienced you to be level headed and helpful on these forums, and I find this post to be neither. I hope you've had enough interaction with me on the forums to know that I support DDB's pricing structure, and am somewhat baffled by those who think all the content should be free for those with the physical books, so my comments aren't because I disagree with you in principle.
Kreakdude, I have an honest question for you, asked with no snark, or ulterior motives. It's one I've asked others who have objected to the model, and have yet to get an answer. How is paying for content here different/more objectionable than paying for a second physical copy of a given book? DDB serves many things for me beyond this, but it does function as a second copy of the books for me: I can leave the PHB home for my son to use, while I have access to it on DDB during breaks at work or any other time I'm away from the book but have tech with me. Similarly, the print copy of the book can be in use by a player at my table while I use DDB on my tablet at the same time.
This is not the only reason I feel paying for the content here is appropriate (I have at least some grasp of the amount of work that must have gone into creating the databases and entering data), but it is one of them. Obviously this explanation/reason is one not that justifies the cost for you. Can you help me understand why that is?
Cee, I wish that you and others would not use the word "entitled" in this conversation. In my corner of the world, "entitled" is one of those escalating/insulting words that only polarizes folks further, making honest respectful conversation that much harder. I am also distressed by your dismissive tone here. I have generally experienced you to be level headed and helpful on these forums, and I find this post to be neither. I hope you've had enough interaction with me on the forums to know that I support DDB's pricing structure, and am somewhat baffled by those who think all the content should be free for those with the physical books, so my comments aren't because I disagree with you in principle.
Kreakdude, I have an honest question for you, asked with no snark, or ulterior motives. It's one I've asked others who have objected to the model, and have yet to get an answer. How is paying for content here different/more objectionable than paying for a second physical copy of a given book? DDB serves many things for me beyond this, but it does function as a second copy of the books for me: I can leave the PHB home for my son to use, while I have access to it on DDB during breaks at work or any other time I'm away from the book but have tech with me. Similarly, the print copy of the book can be in use by a player at my table while I use DDB on my tablet at the same time.
This is not the only reason I feel paying for the content here is appropriate (I have at least some grasp of the amount of work that must have gone into creating the databases and entering data), but it is one of them. Obviously this explanation/reason is one not that justifies the cost for you. Can you help me understand why that is?
We've been through this. First going back to my letters, you're saying "if people complain about having (x+y) and wanting z they have to pay for (x+z) ... why don't complain about having (x+y) and wanting another y and having to pay for (x+y) again?" If WotC implemented a content purchased registry then then this situation would be possible. You could use that proof of purchase to get a discount on additional books so that you are really only paying for non-content related costs of getting the product in your hands.
What's not forgivable about (x+z) product without z by itself is that (x+y) already existed! (x+z) had the gift of hindsight and failed. (x+y) had to rely on foresight, which lack of foresight imo is more forgivable.
Kreakdude, I have an honest question for you, asked with no snark, or ulterior motives. It's one I've asked others who have objected to the model, and have yet to get an answer. How is paying for content here different/more objectionable than paying for a second physical copy of a given book? DDB serves many things for me beyond this, but it does function as a second copy of the books for me: I can leave the PHB home for my son to use, while I have access to it on DDB during breaks at work or any other time I'm away from the book but have tech with me. Similarly, the print copy of the book can be in use by a player at my table while I use DDB on my tablet at the same time.
This is not the only reason I feel paying for the content here is appropriate (I have at least some grasp of the amount of work that must have gone into creating the databases and entering data), but it is one of them. Obviously this explanation/reason is one not that justifies the cost for you. Can you help me understand why that is?
We've been through this. First going back to my letters, you're saying "if people complain about having (x+y) and wanting z they have to pay for (x+z) ... why don't complain about having (x+y) and wanting another y and having to pay for (x+y) again?" If WotC implemented a content purchased registry then then this situation would be possible. You could use that proof of purchase to get a discount on additional books so that you are really only paying for non-content related costs of getting the product in your hands.
What's not forgivable about (x+z) product without z by itself is that (x+y) already existed! (x+z) had the gift of hindsight and failed. (x+y) had to rely on foresight, which lack of foresight imo is more forgivable.
I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly, because I had to work at parsing this. (Which is not meant as a criticism; I think our brains/logic work differently) If I've understood you, you want WOTC to implement a content purchased registry that would mean:
1) If I purchased one physical copy of the PHB, I could purchase a second physical copy at a discount, so that effectively I'm just paying for the paper, binding, shipping, etc.
2) If I purchased one physical copy of the PHB, I could purchase access to the PHB on DDB at a discount, so that effectively I'm just paying for the labor of entering the content into the sites database and site upkeep.
So that (If I'm understanding) effectively, for you there isn't a difference in your expectations between purchasing a second copy of the book in a physical or digital form, you want WOTC to recognize that you've already purchased the content and you want a discount on a second purchase to reflect that.
If that's not what you meant, please help me understand by defining x, y, and z, as I'm struggling to sort out each represent.
If that is what you mean, then thank you for explaining your perspective. I don't share it, and I can't imagine that WOTC will do want you want, but I certainly wouldn't object if they do, and I do appreciate that there is consistency to your request.
The DDB version is already discounted! The MSRP of the PHB is $49.95. The PHB on DDB is $29.99. That's a difference of almost $20.
You are already getting the "second" copy at a discount.
So, we could argue that you're not paying twice for the content because of that price difference. We could say that the labour of the Curse team, plus costs of overhead, plus a profit, is what you're paying for. You're getting the content you already own "for free".
So, Kreakdude, do you want it for free, or pay something for it? What do you think it is worth to pay for on DDB?
If all you want is a PDF, talk to WotC, not DDB. DDB is in the online database business, not the PDF-of-other-people's-work-business.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Cee, I wish that you and others would not use the word "entitled" in this conversation. In my corner of the world, "entitled" is one of those escalating/insulting words that only polarizes folks further, making honest respectful conversation that much harder. I am also distressed by your dismissive tone here. I have generally experienced you to be level headed and helpful on these forums, and I find this post to be neither. I hope you've had enough interaction with me on the forums to know that I support DDB's pricing structure, and am somewhat baffled by those who think all the content should be free for those with the physical books, so my comments aren't because I disagree with you in principle.
First, I appreciate how mellow and calm your response is and i thank you for pointing things out that you do not like in conversation, for me it is the R word.
Last time i checked, we are from the same area, actually the same state and possibly the same region, i would have to go back and double check so it could be that your corner is just your area? When i say entitled, i mean those that feel they are more deserving and should get special treatment because of who they are, their family name, or position, or bank account. So maybe i use it differently than you and perhaps there is a better word. I will try to refrain in the future.
Yes, perhaps i was a bit condescending in the tone of how I wrote it, but in all honesty, it is 100% factual. He has/had asked for a PDF which we all know WOTC does not, and for the foreseeable future, will not do so i am perplexed as to why people still ask for them. For anyone that did not know, WOTC does not make, sell, or distribute PDF's when they have it in published book form. Like at all. so if you get a PDF of a book, it was made public/distributed illegally. End of story. The only exception I can think of is the recent Ebberon stuff that you have to go to DMSGuild to get and perhaps this is a test run or a way to have it test played before it becomes an official book and then get yanked from there. So when i wrote out that he could cut up the book and make his own, that is all i can suggest for him to get his PDF. Yes i countered that it will take a lot of work to get exactly what he wants, but it is doable on a personal level. I just want to make sure he and anyone else understand that it take a lot of work to get things that look professional. This is why i have 0 issues with paying DDB for the high quality stuff they provide.
Anyone that wants to continue this feel free to PM me at anytime so we do not clutter up the forums.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
The DDB version is already discounted! The MSRP of the PHB is $49.95. The PHB on DDB is $29.99. That's a difference of almost $20.
You are already getting the "second" copy at a discount.
So, we could argue that you're not paying twice for the content because of that price difference. We could say that the labour of the Curse team, plus costs of overhead, plus a profit, is what you're paying for. You're getting the content you already own "for free".
So, Kreakdude, do you want it for free, or pay something for it? What do you think it is worth to pay for on DDB?
If all you want is a PDF, talk to WotC, not DDB. DDB is in the online database business, not the PDF-of-other-people's-work-business.
I've already explained this too. So your MSRP is (x+y). Your PHB on DDB is (x+z). The price point that I care about that is missing is (z). Apparently there is a PHB compendium content only which is very close to just (x) because it has a small part of z.
Arwensdaughter yes your explanation shows understanding. Even though you don't share the perspective your reaction is refreshing.Thanks. I'll just point out that your description about what you are paying for isn't the point, rather it's to describe what you aren't paying for which is the content.
The DDB version is already discounted! The MSRP of the PHB is $49.95. The PHB on DDB is $29.99. That's a difference of almost $20.
You are already getting the "second" copy at a discount.
So, we could argue that you're not paying twice for the content because of that price difference. We could say that the labour of the Curse team, plus costs of overhead, plus a profit, is what you're paying for. You're getting the content you already own "for free".
So, Kreakdude, do you want it for free, or pay something for it? What do you think it is worth to pay for on DDB?
If all you want is a PDF, talk to WotC, not DDB. DDB is in the online database business, not the PDF-of-other-people's-work-business.
One very important correction on this. The cost of the digital book is $19.99, not $29.99. If you truly want to compare physical apples to digital apples, then you have to go with the compendium. You will have the exact same content in the exact same usefulness. Thus you could say that the digital book really is discounted by at least $10 and possibly more depending on where you purchase. You are paying $19.99 for the work that DDB has put in to make it a digital format.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Kreakdude, I have an honest question for you, asked with no snark, or ulterior motives. It's one I've asked others who have objected to the model, and have yet to get an answer. How is paying for content here different/more objectionable than paying for a second physical copy of a given book? DDB serves many things for me beyond this, but it does function as a second copy of the books for me: I can leave the PHB home for my son to use, while I have access to it on DDB during breaks at work or any other time I'm away from the book but have tech with me. Similarly, the print copy of the book can be in use by a player at my table while I use DDB on my tablet at the same time.
This is not the only reason I feel paying for the content here is appropriate (I have at least some grasp of the amount of work that must have gone into creating the databases and entering data), but it is one of them. Obviously this explanation/reason is one not that justifies the cost for you. Can you help me understand why that is?
We've been through this. First going back to my letters, you're saying "if people complain about having (x+y) and wanting z they have to pay for (x+z) ... why don't complain about having (x+y) and wanting another y and having to pay for (x+y) again?" If WotC implemented a content purchased registry then then this situation would be possible. You could use that proof of purchase to get a discount on additional books so that you are really only paying for non-content related costs of getting the product in your hands.
What's not forgivable about (x+z) product without z by itself is that (x+y) already existed! (x+z) had the gift of hindsight and failed. (x+y) had to rely on foresight, which lack of foresight imo is more forgivable.
If that's not what you meant, please help me understand by defining x, y, and z, as I'm struggling to sort out each represent.
I have to agree, i thought of several different things X, Y, and Z could be, but none of them made sense in the log run and combining them the way you are wouldn't work. and then i was totally confused on the hindsight / foresight part in relations back to the x+y/x+z.
I will comment on this anyways and though it may turn out to be all wrong I apologize in advance. I understand that you want something because you purchased something. You purchased a physical book from vendor 1. Now you want something from vendor 2 in a different format cheaper because the content is the same.
WOTC, a publisher, as far as I can tell had no plans to take 5e digital (which would also make them a retailer and could possibly violate some of their contracts they have with vendors), or if they did they kept it under very tight wraps. Then a vendor came along and brokered a deal to create a digital version and thus taking all the risks while WOTC sits back and collects.
Now, in all fairness, i would be 10000000% on board if WOTC had the foresight to create a proof of purchase that could not be easily counterfeited for this very purpose. The fact that they did not leads me to believe that they had no plans to take 5e digital. The only reason it is, is because the DDB team decided they wanted to try it, no different than Fantasy Grounds wanting to make a digital product for their platform (which btw, are you there asking for the a discounted price since you own the physical?).
2 last points. 1. WOTC has to make the cost analysis and business decision if it is worth it to create/implement/maintain/etc the tracking system just for these proof of purchases. 2. they cannot favor just one vendor, it would have to be the same for FG, Roll20, and every other vendor out there as what if you just want a 2nd copy of the physical. FYI, the fact that Roll20 still charges MSRP when others do not (though, i see that the PHB is finally down to $29.99) shows that they are the real bad guys here.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
The DDB version is already discounted! The MSRP of the PHB is $49.95. The PHB on DDB is $29.99. That's a difference of almost $20.
You are already getting the "second" copy at a discount.
So, we could argue that you're not paying twice for the content because of that price difference. We could say that the labour of the Curse team, plus costs of overhead, plus a profit, is what you're paying for. You're getting the content you already own "for free".
So, Kreakdude, do you want it for free, or pay something for it? What do you think it is worth to pay for on DDB?
If all you want is a PDF, talk to WotC, not DDB. DDB is in the online database business, not the PDF-of-other-people's-work-business.
One very important correction on this. The cost of the digital book is $19.99, not $29.99. If you truly want to compare physical apples to digital apples, then you have to go with the compendium. You will have the exact same content in the exact same usefulness. Thus you could say that the digital book really is discounted by at least $10 and possibly more depending on where you purchase. You are paying $19.99 for the work that DDB has put in to make it a digital format.
So what you're doing is further splitting z into 2 parts. Here's what they stand for again:
x is the content, y is the physical distribution and z is the digital benefits.
"digital benefits" can be split further into digital delivery which is the compendium content, and ability to use it with the character sheet.
You purchased a physical book from vendor 1. Now you want something from vendor 2 in a different format cheaper because the content is the same.
Yep. I'd just add that both vendors are under the same umbrella of WotC D&D 5e. As a user I don't care about the "why", about the behind the scenes. I see the same trademark on the products, the d&d symbol, the title of the book, the name of the product, the cover art, etc. I can open both products and read the exact same content.
You are getting it cheaper, though. If you wanted to buy the book again from a different vendor (or even the same one) you're looking at usually just under $50. On D&D Beyond the digital version of the book is less than $20. That's a lot cheaper and you get the exact same content. This cost represents D&D Beyond taking the time to recreate it all, setting up the mechanism for providing it, paying for upkeep of that mechanism, paying for the e-merchant services and the license from WotC.
For $10 extra you get all the things for use in the digital character sheet and easier referencing through things like searches, tooltips and such as. If you prefer not to get the whole package you can get things piecemeal. Or, if you have the time, you can create homebrew versions for free.
You say you want the option to get the book again for less. D&D Beyond is offering the option to get the book again for less. What is the problem here?
There's little reason arguing with kreakdude. He wants the content for free on every digital service that offers it once he's bought the physical copy. Nothing we say will change his mind.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
You purchased a physical book from vendor 1. Now you want something from vendor 2 in a different format cheaper because the content is the same.
Yep. I'd just add that both vendors are under the same umbrella of WotC D&D 5e. As a user I don't care about the "why", about the behind the scenes. I see the same trademark on the products, the d&d symbol, the title of the book, the name of the product, the cover art, etc. I can open both products and read the exact same content.
Genuine question, just to get your meaning right: if you bought, let's say, the normal version of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, would you expect WotC to give you the Deluxe edition of the book for free?
I ask because the content is exactly the same in that case as well, it's just the "package" that changes, the aesthetics, and by your logic you should be given the Deluxe Edition as well correct? Otherwise we are in a bit of a double-standard situation here, I am afraid.
EDIT: for correctness and completeness: same example as before, but substitute mentioning of "free" with "at a heavy discount"
To me it just sounds like saying because I bought a Spider-Man t-shirt at Target, then I should get to only pay for the cost of production on the same shirt design at Wal-Mart because they're both under the Marvel umbrella. That is not how the world works or has ever worked.
Frankly I'm not sure I understand what Kreakdude wants. He seems to keep moving the goal posts.
Does he want to use the content on DDB for free? Is he just looking for a free PDF? Is he looking for a discount on buying the PHB on all digital services, and if so, how much?
I assume Kreakdude is also posting these same arguments on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20's forums, and demanding the same from them?
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
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Oh, I've brought up that argument. Apparently there are some people who think buying DDB should entitle you to free hardcover books. SMH.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
No need to counter. You see it that way, that's ok for you. It's not wrong. I see it the other way. We don't need to convince each other or reconcile. Sorry to not appease your boredom :D. You're right that it may never change (I hope it does), but I do think there is an incentive. Maybe first and foremost is to get people like me to shut up? Also to provide the best user experience for as many users as possible. To not leave unspent money. We've been down this road too and yeah the numbers may or may not work out as long as enough people are willing to see it they way you see it, but that may change.
Yeah it's definitely been brought up, but I think it's less just because of chronological order (the books came out long before DDB).
Kreakdue, this "To not leave unspent money. " makes no sense. It sounds like you think by letting people purchase one and get the other for free WotC would make more money??? Right now money is not being left unspent. Some people buy one or the other, some people buy both.
And I'll say it again for anyone starting at the last page instead of the beginning... if you order your PHB from Amazon, and buy the digital PHB on D&D Beyond, the combined cost is only a few dollars more than just buying the PHB at the full retail price in a store. In other words, by buying both online it would be like buying the PHB full price in a store and getting DDB for a drastically discounted price (or even free if you buy it with one of the fairly regular discount codes).
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
When you say things like "purchase one and get the other for free" it shows me that you still do not grasp my perspective and that by now, after 27 pages, you never ever will. I'm not even going to bother trying to correct it for you.
To me it is more of those that feel because they bought some paper, they think they should get an electronic free as well.
So here is my counter offer. You want a PDF of the book? You want it for whatever reason and you want it free? take a straight razor to your book, remove the bindings and go scan it in yourself for your own personal use. I didn't see a single rule or agreement that would stop you from doing this. thus you have a physical (abet now in loose leaf fashion) and a pdf of the book.
You want a shelf and a pdf, then go buy two copies. I am sure the place you bought your first copy will not give you a 2nd copy for free.
Then you can grab each physical book as they come out and do the same. Oh, and you can buy it where ever your little heart desires to get to the price point you want, no comparisons at all.
But do not come back here and complain that it is not linked or have fancy tabs or OCR that allows you to search. tough cookie. You want all that for free? then you have to put up your sleeves and do the hard work yourself.
Don't want to cut up your book? then start typing away. no one is stopping you unless you try to sell it, then you will have a problem. Sure, it is hard work and not a lot of fun and it will not look like your book unless you have lots of free time and the knowledge to typeset, photoshop and all those other fancy words that deal with it, but ... it will be free.
Oh, you don't want to do all that hard and time consuming work yourself? Then go out and hire a professional to do it for you. i am sure that will be cheap.
Or you can just realize that DDB does not equal WOTC, the Physical book does not equal the digital platform here (this is much greater imho) and that you will have to purchase it again.
Until WOTC (not DDB) changes how it wants to do business (and the $500 platinum version of Waterdeep Heist may be a prelude to how this is done), there is nothing here that can be said or done to help with any of this.
and for reference, I am one of those that not only buys the physical copies (and alt covers when i can), but i also have the DM Year long subscription and legendary bundle.
Note: i have edited out a single word for my fellow enthusiast out of respect.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Cee, I wish that you and others would not use the word "entitled" in this conversation. In my corner of the world, "entitled" is one of those escalating/insulting words that only polarizes folks further, making honest respectful conversation that much harder. I am also distressed by your dismissive tone here. I have generally experienced you to be level headed and helpful on these forums, and I find this post to be neither. I hope you've had enough interaction with me on the forums to know that I support DDB's pricing structure, and am somewhat baffled by those who think all the content should be free for those with the physical books, so my comments aren't because I disagree with you in principle.
Kreakdude, I have an honest question for you, asked with no snark, or ulterior motives. It's one I've asked others who have objected to the model, and have yet to get an answer. How is paying for content here different/more objectionable than paying for a second physical copy of a given book? DDB serves many things for me beyond this, but it does function as a second copy of the books for me: I can leave the PHB home for my son to use, while I have access to it on DDB during breaks at work or any other time I'm away from the book but have tech with me. Similarly, the print copy of the book can be in use by a player at my table while I use DDB on my tablet at the same time.
This is not the only reason I feel paying for the content here is appropriate (I have at least some grasp of the amount of work that must have gone into creating the databases and entering data), but it is one of them. Obviously this explanation/reason is one not that justifies the cost for you. Can you help me understand why that is?
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
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We've been through this. First going back to my letters, you're saying "if people complain about having (x+y) and wanting z they have to pay for (x+z) ... why don't complain about having (x+y) and wanting another y and having to pay for (x+y) again?" If WotC implemented a content purchased registry then then this situation would be possible. You could use that proof of purchase to get a discount on additional books so that you are really only paying for non-content related costs of getting the product in your hands.
What's not forgivable about (x+z) product without z by itself is that (x+y) already existed! (x+z) had the gift of hindsight and failed. (x+y) had to rely on foresight, which lack of foresight imo is more forgivable.
I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly, because I had to work at parsing this. (Which is not meant as a criticism; I think our brains/logic work differently) If I've understood you, you want WOTC to implement a content purchased registry that would mean:
1) If I purchased one physical copy of the PHB, I could purchase a second physical copy at a discount, so that effectively I'm just paying for the paper, binding, shipping, etc.
2) If I purchased one physical copy of the PHB, I could purchase access to the PHB on DDB at a discount, so that effectively I'm just paying for the labor of entering the content into the sites database and site upkeep.
So that (If I'm understanding) effectively, for you there isn't a difference in your expectations between purchasing a second copy of the book in a physical or digital form, you want WOTC to recognize that you've already purchased the content and you want a discount on a second purchase to reflect that.
If that's not what you meant, please help me understand by defining x, y, and z, as I'm struggling to sort out each represent.
If that is what you mean, then thank you for explaining your perspective. I don't share it, and I can't imagine that WOTC will do want you want, but I certainly wouldn't object if they do, and I do appreciate that there is consistency to your request.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
The DDB version is already discounted! The MSRP of the PHB is $49.95. The PHB on DDB is $29.99. That's a difference of almost $20.
You are already getting the "second" copy at a discount.
So, we could argue that you're not paying twice for the content because of that price difference. We could say that the labour of the Curse team, plus costs of overhead, plus a profit, is what you're paying for. You're getting the content you already own "for free".
So, Kreakdude, do you want it for free, or pay something for it? What do you think it is worth to pay for on DDB?
If all you want is a PDF, talk to WotC, not DDB. DDB is in the online database business, not the PDF-of-other-people's-work-business.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
First, I appreciate how mellow and calm your response is and i thank you for pointing things out that you do not like in conversation, for me it is the R word.
Last time i checked, we are from the same area, actually the same state and possibly the same region, i would have to go back and double check so it could be that your corner is just your area? When i say entitled, i mean those that feel they are more deserving and should get special treatment because of who they are, their family name, or position, or bank account. So maybe i use it differently than you and perhaps there is a better word. I will try to refrain in the future.
Yes, perhaps i was a bit condescending in the tone of how I wrote it, but in all honesty, it is 100% factual. He has/had asked for a PDF which we all know WOTC does not, and for the foreseeable future, will not do so i am perplexed as to why people still ask for them. For anyone that did not know, WOTC does not make, sell, or distribute PDF's when they have it in published book form. Like at all. so if you get a PDF of a book, it was made public/distributed illegally. End of story. The only exception I can think of is the recent Ebberon stuff that you have to go to DMSGuild to get and perhaps this is a test run or a way to have it test played before it becomes an official book and then get yanked from there. So when i wrote out that he could cut up the book and make his own, that is all i can suggest for him to get his PDF. Yes i countered that it will take a lot of work to get exactly what he wants, but it is doable on a personal level. I just want to make sure he and anyone else understand that it take a lot of work to get things that look professional. This is why i have 0 issues with paying DDB for the high quality stuff they provide.
Anyone that wants to continue this feel free to PM me at anytime so we do not clutter up the forums.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I've already explained this too. So your MSRP is (x+y). Your PHB on DDB is (x+z). The price point that I care about that is missing is (z). Apparently there is a PHB compendium content only which is very close to just (x) because it has a small part of z.
Arwensdaughter yes your explanation shows understanding. Even though you don't share the perspective your reaction is refreshing.Thanks. I'll just point out that your description about what you are paying for isn't the point, rather it's to describe what you aren't paying for which is the content.
One very important correction on this. The cost of the digital book is $19.99, not $29.99. If you truly want to compare physical apples to digital apples, then you have to go with the compendium. You will have the exact same content in the exact same usefulness. Thus you could say that the digital book really is discounted by at least $10 and possibly more depending on where you purchase. You are paying $19.99 for the work that DDB has put in to make it a digital format.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I have to agree, i thought of several different things X, Y, and Z could be, but none of them made sense in the log run and combining them the way you are wouldn't work. and then i was totally confused on the hindsight / foresight part in relations back to the x+y/x+z.
I will comment on this anyways and though it may turn out to be all wrong I apologize in advance. I understand that you want something because you purchased something. You purchased a physical book from vendor 1. Now you want something from vendor 2 in a different format cheaper because the content is the same.
WOTC, a publisher, as far as I can tell had no plans to take 5e digital (which would also make them a retailer and could possibly violate some of their contracts they have with vendors), or if they did they kept it under very tight wraps. Then a vendor came along and brokered a deal to create a digital version and thus taking all the risks while WOTC sits back and collects.
Now, in all fairness, i would be 10000000% on board if WOTC had the foresight to create a proof of purchase that could not be easily counterfeited for this very purpose. The fact that they did not leads me to believe that they had no plans to take 5e digital. The only reason it is, is because the DDB team decided they wanted to try it, no different than Fantasy Grounds wanting to make a digital product for their platform (which btw, are you there asking for the a discounted price since you own the physical?).
2 last points. 1. WOTC has to make the cost analysis and business decision if it is worth it to create/implement/maintain/etc the tracking system just for these proof of purchases. 2. they cannot favor just one vendor, it would have to be the same for FG, Roll20, and every other vendor out there as what if you just want a 2nd copy of the physical. FYI, the fact that Roll20 still charges MSRP when others do not (though, i see that the PHB is finally down to $29.99) shows that they are the real bad guys here.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
So what you're doing is further splitting z into 2 parts. Here's what they stand for again:
"digital benefits" can be split further into digital delivery which is the compendium content, and ability to use it with the character sheet.
Yep. I'd just add that both vendors are under the same umbrella of WotC D&D 5e. As a user I don't care about the "why", about the behind the scenes. I see the same trademark on the products, the d&d symbol, the title of the book, the name of the product, the cover art, etc. I can open both products and read the exact same content.
You are getting it cheaper, though. If you wanted to buy the book again from a different vendor (or even the same one) you're looking at usually just under $50. On D&D Beyond the digital version of the book is less than $20. That's a lot cheaper and you get the exact same content. This cost represents D&D Beyond taking the time to recreate it all, setting up the mechanism for providing it, paying for upkeep of that mechanism, paying for the e-merchant services and the license from WotC.
For $10 extra you get all the things for use in the digital character sheet and easier referencing through things like searches, tooltips and such as. If you prefer not to get the whole package you can get things piecemeal. Or, if you have the time, you can create homebrew versions for free.
You say you want the option to get the book again for less. D&D Beyond is offering the option to get the book again for less. What is the problem here?
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There's little reason arguing with kreakdude. He wants the content for free on every digital service that offers it once he's bought the physical copy. Nothing we say will change his mind.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Genuine question, just to get your meaning right: if you bought, let's say, the normal version of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, would you expect WotC to give you the Deluxe edition of the book for free?
I ask because the content is exactly the same in that case as well, it's just the "package" that changes, the aesthetics, and by your logic you should be given the Deluxe Edition as well correct? Otherwise we are in a bit of a double-standard situation here, I am afraid.
EDIT: for correctness and completeness: same example as before, but substitute mentioning of "free" with "at a heavy discount"
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
To me it just sounds like saying because I bought a Spider-Man t-shirt at Target, then I should get to only pay for the cost of production on the same shirt design at Wal-Mart because they're both under the Marvel umbrella. That is not how the world works or has ever worked.
Frankly I'm not sure I understand what Kreakdude wants. He seems to keep moving the goal posts.
Does he want to use the content on DDB for free? Is he just looking for a free PDF? Is he looking for a discount on buying the PHB on all digital services, and if so, how much?
I assume Kreakdude is also posting these same arguments on the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20's forums, and demanding the same from them?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?