1st and 2nd edition wizards felt very complex and rewarding when done right, but I must admit that I am spoiled by endless cantrips and the versatility of prepared spells and ritual spells of 5e.
For me it was actions. I know the rules now but it was confusing at first because some didn't make sense.
What triggers a BA?
Can I use a BA before a SA that triggers it?
Can I cast two spells if one is a BA? why must one be a cantrip?
Can I use a reaction on my turn?
Can I delay my standard action?
Can I delay my Bonus action?
Haste gives me a second action but I can only make 1 extra weapon attack? why? What if I am a monk using my fists? (melee weapon attack vs Melee Attack)
Action surge - can I multi attack? (confusion with haste)
While it is a game, it is a narrative game. The hardest thing I find when introducing the game is getting players to understand it isn't a "Win/Lose" type of game. It is creative storytelling with dice providing some random results.
While it is a game, it is a narrative game. The hardest thing I find when introducing the game is getting players to understand it isn't a "Win/Lose" type of game. It is creative storytelling with dice providing some random results.
I tell people it’s like when we played make believe when we were kids, only it’s strictly PvE, and there are rules so nobody has to argue over who shot first.
I’ma hafta go check my AD&D 1e PHB when I get a chance, but I very much remember “prepared spell slots” being a thing. I may be misremembering things, but I don’t think so.
1st edition PHB: All tables showing the # and level of spells that can be cast per day by each class are titled "Spells usable by...." No mention of slots.
In the Spells section, p. 40, it says this:
Once cast, a spell is totally forgotten. Gone. The mystical symbols impressed upon the brain carry power, and speaking the spell discharges this power, draining all memory of the spell used. This does not preclude multiple memorization of the same spell, but it does preclude multiple use of a single spell memorized but once. When a spell caster shoots his or her spell-bolt, so to speak, it is gone.
As previously shown in the CHARACTER CLASSES section, the number of spells usable by a character depend upon class and level.
I find no mention anywhere of spell "slots." I am very certain that "slots" came as a surprise to me when introduced, as to my mind what had always been being done was learning "spells" and using "spells". Furthermore, in the PDF document I have of PHB 1e, I did a word search for "slots" and "slot" and came up with nada. The word was, as far as I can find, not only not used in the context of spells, but never used once in the entire manual.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah, Lyxen pointed that out to me too. I must have misremembered. Can ya blame me? I mean, I haven’t played an AD&D character since 3e came out 20 years ago. And my group played World of Darkness like yours played Champions, and I got a couple editions of Shadowrun in there.... At one point I even had every M:tG card ever printed from Alpha through the Mirrodin block memorized (excluding flavor text and artist’s name) so I’m sure the remnants of that are still in there somewhere too. Plus there’s all the actual important shit I need IRL that I keep on the front several pages and need to flip past to get to the rest of it. My “Mind Rolodex” needs a purge and a defrag I guess.
The basic mechanics of 5e have proven to be simple for my mostly newbie players to learn. Even my 9yo daughter gets her action options for the most part. There's occasional stumbles where we have to remember what uses your action vs. your bonus action but it's not too bad.
The hardest things my players have had to learn:
Not to use their most potent spells too soon. That comes with experience.
Keeping track of their spell slots. Using D&D Beyond has helped considerably.
Remembering all the things they can do. 5e PCs are loaded up with options and features. Most get forgotten. Honestly this is my biggest at-table gripe with the system. I wish they had worked out a way to streamline that.
Remembering all the things they can do. 5e PCs are loaded up with options and features. Most get forgotten. Honestly this is my biggest at-table gripe with the system. I wish they had worked out a way to streamline that.
Yeah... my players often forget what they can do also. And as a DM, I really have too much on my plate to keep reminding them. Though I often think of it later.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Remembering all the things they can do. 5e PCs are loaded up with options and features. Most get forgotten. Honestly this is my biggest at-table gripe with the system. I wish they had worked out a way to streamline that.
I mean, that's what 4th edition did. Turns out a lot of players didn't like it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Remembering all the things they can do. 5e PCs are loaded up with options and features. Most get forgotten. Honestly this is my biggest at-table gripe with the system. I wish they had worked out a way to streamline that.
I mean, that's what 4th edition did. Turns out a lot of players didn't like it.
I never played 4e, but I suspect players didn't object to streamlining as a concept but more to how it was done in that instance. I can think of a number of ways to streamline PC builds but retain their 5e flavor.
I think one of the issues with remembering abilities is that many are situational, and some recover on a long rest and some on a short rest. Some are reactions, some are bonus actions, some are actions. So when you have a reaction that occurs only in a certain situation, and only once per short rest, it's often hard to remember, did I use this already since the last short rest? Yes you can write it down, but you have to remember to look for it on your turn, which not everyone is going to. Especially if you're new to a class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think one of the issues with remembering abilities is that many are situational, and some recover on a long rest and some on a short rest. Some are reactions, some are bonus actions, some are actions. So when you have a reaction that occurs only in a certain situation, and only once per short rest, it's often hard to remember, did I use this already since the last short rest? Yes you can write it down, but you have to remember to look for it on your turn, which not everyone is going to. Especially if you're new to a class.
That’s why almost my entire group has switched to running their PCs on DDB’s website during sessions. Finding things on the paper sheet was hopeless for them because of the way in which it was organized. Finding it on the digital sheet is as simple as clicking/tapping “Actions,” or “Features & Traits” and voila.
Remembering all the things they can do. 5e PCs are loaded up with options and features. Most get forgotten. Honestly this is my biggest at-table gripe with the system. I wish they had worked out a way to streamline that.
I mean, that's what 4th edition did. Turns out a lot of players didn't like it.
I never played 4e, but I suspect players didn't object to streamlining as a concept but more to how it was done in that instance. I can think of a number of ways to streamline PC builds but retain their 5e flavor.
Absolutely. I’m just saying, WotC has made an effort towards this in a past edition and there was a lot of vocal animosity about it. Most anything will have some who like it and others who don’t.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
That’s why almost my entire group has switched to running their PCs on DDB’s website during sessions.
My group uses either DDB or their imported Foundry version of their DDB character.
It's still a lot to remember, and you have to still look in the right place on the character sheet. And again if you don't know to look for it you can easily forget you have it, even with it right there in front of ya.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thank you for that by the way. I’de have gotten to it eventually, but you saved me from having to.
Keep in mind that one of the players in my group has always been married to her characters’ paper sheets. She always appreciated every coffee stain and ketchup mark; the places where the edge of the page got translucent from being picked up thousands of times with hands greasy from diner fries; that spot under HP where the paper gets dangerously thin after a thousand or so sessions.... She calls it “patina,” and displays a sort of reverence whenever she encounters a well loved sheet. Her first reaction to the character builder was, well... suffice it to say that had the offending program not been on her device at the time, it would have been more “expressive” than it was. Even she has embraced the fact that with a tap of her finger she can find the exact section she needs, and with another tap the information she wants leaps into view. It’s just so damned convenient.
There’s another player who is wholly dedicated to never doing whatever he perceives as a social trend for any reason. He resists the DDB way to the extent that he programmed himself an excel spreadsheet to do the same math that DDB does. He stopped reaching for his books since the rest of us can all look whatever up faster here. The only reason he still resists is because everyone else uses DDB so he can’t. Not won’t, can’t, it’s semi-pathological or something. His early objections were defeated handily because:
DDB is free
He would have content sharing access to my library
Google sign-in security
no requirement to download anything
multiple choice simplicity
available offline access via apps if desired
Etc.
Every objection he raised settled down again just as fast. His last great reason was that he could write anything on a pice of paper... and then we showed him the notes section of the sheet. His last remaining reason is “if electricity fails on a global level....” and our response was that we would all be too busy securing potable water and ammunition to play anyway. If anyone could have come up with a convincing reason to not use DDB, it would have been him.
As a player, the etiquette of when to speak. I find myself speaking up at the same time as other players. Or I'm not sure when I should interrupt the DM to let them know my character wants to take an action during the montage they're narrating.
As a DM, how to assume likely intent of the players rather than clarify everything they're saying. If I decide an outcome that contradicts their intent, they can always correct me and I can retcon it.
As a player, the etiquette of when to speak. I find myself speaking up at the same time as other players. Or I'm not sure when I should interrupt the DM to let them know my character wants to take an action during the montage they're narrating.
I would say, ordinarily go ahead and let them finish what they are narrating. But it all depends on the DM and what they are doing.
With me, what I am usually narrating is a description of a scene -- you see this, and then this, and over here is that -- and not usually an action. I tend not to "narrate" those because of what you have said -- the players might want to interrupt. I often pre-write descriptive passages of places or people because I don't do those well on the fly. But I try not, in writing those descriptions, to have "time" advancing or specific actions being taken (unless the party walks in on an ongoing action, like a wizard in the middle of a ritual, then I will describe the ritual, as something that has been going on a while and they walked into it while it was in progress).
But all DMs are different and if a DM is trying to narrate a sequence of events that happens after the PCs show up, then you may need to speak up and say, "Can we take any actions here?" or something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I saw a stream where the players kept interrupting the DM in important gameplay moments (not RP moments), and he cast "UNSKIPPABLE CUTSCENE!! SHUT UP!!" at them. It's become a joke at the table but also players reminding each other that they need to pay attention to the DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1st and 2nd edition wizards felt very complex and rewarding when done right, but I must admit that I am spoiled by endless cantrips and the versatility of prepared spells and ritual spells of 5e.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
For me it was actions. I know the rules now but it was confusing at first because some didn't make sense.
While it is a game, it is a narrative game. The hardest thing I find when introducing the game is getting players to understand it isn't a "Win/Lose" type of game. It is creative storytelling with dice providing some random results.
I tell people it’s like when we played make believe when we were kids, only it’s strictly PvE, and there are rules so nobody has to argue over who shot first.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Spell slots and spell save DCs took me a while to understand.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
1st edition PHB: All tables showing the # and level of spells that can be cast per day by each class are titled "Spells usable by...." No mention of slots.
In the Spells section, p. 40, it says this:
Once cast, a spell is totally forgotten. Gone. The mystical symbols impressed upon the brain carry power, and speaking the spell discharges this power, draining all memory of the spell used. This does not preclude multiple memorization of the same spell, but it does preclude multiple use of a single spell memorized but once. When a spell caster shoots his or her spell-bolt, so to speak, it is gone.
As previously shown in the CHARACTER CLASSES section, the number of spells usable by a character depend upon class and level.
I find no mention anywhere of spell "slots." I am very certain that "slots" came as a surprise to me when introduced, as to my mind what had always been being done was learning "spells" and using "spells". Furthermore, in the PDF document I have of PHB 1e, I did a word search for "slots" and "slot" and came up with nada. The word was, as far as I can find, not only not used in the context of spells, but never used once in the entire manual.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah, Lyxen pointed that out to me too. I must have misremembered. Can ya blame me? I mean, I haven’t played an AD&D character since 3e came out 20 years ago. And my group played World of Darkness like yours played Champions, and I got a couple editions of Shadowrun in there.... At one point I even had every M:tG card ever printed from Alpha through the Mirrodin block memorized (excluding flavor text and artist’s name) so I’m sure the remnants of that are still in there somewhere too. Plus there’s all the actual important shit I need IRL that I keep on the front several pages and need to flip past to get to the rest of it. My “Mind Rolodex” needs a purge and a defrag I guess.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The basic mechanics of 5e have proven to be simple for my mostly newbie players to learn. Even my 9yo daughter gets her action options for the most part. There's occasional stumbles where we have to remember what uses your action vs. your bonus action but it's not too bad.
The hardest things my players have had to learn:
Yeah... my players often forget what they can do also. And as a DM, I really have too much on my plate to keep reminding them. Though I often think of it later.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I mean, that's what 4th edition did. Turns out a lot of players didn't like it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I never played 4e, but I suspect players didn't object to streamlining as a concept but more to how it was done in that instance. I can think of a number of ways to streamline PC builds but retain their 5e flavor.
I think one of the issues with remembering abilities is that many are situational, and some recover on a long rest and some on a short rest. Some are reactions, some are bonus actions, some are actions. So when you have a reaction that occurs only in a certain situation, and only once per short rest, it's often hard to remember, did I use this already since the last short rest? Yes you can write it down, but you have to remember to look for it on your turn, which not everyone is going to. Especially if you're new to a class.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That’s why almost my entire group has switched to running their PCs on DDB’s website during sessions. Finding things on the paper sheet was hopeless for them because of the way in which it was organized. Finding it on the digital sheet is as simple as clicking/tapping “Actions,” or “Features & Traits” and voila.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Absolutely. I’m just saying, WotC has made an effort towards this in a past edition and there was a lot of vocal animosity about it. Most anything will have some who like it and others who don’t.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah, I did a vampire fight and the vampire didn't bite anybody.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
My group uses either DDB or their imported Foundry version of their DDB character.
It's still a lot to remember, and you have to still look in the right place on the character sheet. And again if you don't know to look for it you can easily forget you have it, even with it right there in front of ya.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thank you for that by the way. I’de have gotten to it eventually, but you saved me from having to.
Keep in mind that one of the players in my group has always been married to her characters’ paper sheets. She always appreciated every coffee stain and ketchup mark; the places where the edge of the page got translucent from being picked up thousands of times with hands greasy from diner fries; that spot under HP where the paper gets dangerously thin after a thousand or so sessions.... She calls it “patina,” and displays a sort of reverence whenever she encounters a well loved sheet. Her first reaction to the character builder was, well... suffice it to say that had the offending program not been on her device at the time, it would have been more “expressive” than it was. Even she has embraced the fact that with a tap of her finger she can find the exact section she needs, and with another tap the information she wants leaps into view. It’s just so damned convenient.
There’s another player who is wholly dedicated to never doing whatever he perceives as a social trend for any reason. He resists the DDB way to the extent that he programmed himself an excel spreadsheet to do the same math that DDB does. He stopped reaching for his books since the rest of us can all look whatever up faster here. The only reason he still resists is because everyone else uses DDB so he can’t. Not won’t, can’t, it’s semi-pathological or something. His early objections were defeated handily because:
Every objection he raised settled down again just as fast. His last great reason was that he could write anything on a pice of paper... and then we showed him the notes section of the sheet. His last remaining reason is “if electricity fails on a global level....” and our response was that we would all be too busy securing potable water and ammunition to play anyway. If anyone could have come up with a convincing reason to not use DDB, it would have been him.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
As a player, the etiquette of when to speak. I find myself speaking up at the same time as other players. Or I'm not sure when I should interrupt the DM to let them know my character wants to take an action during the montage they're narrating.
As a DM, how to assume likely intent of the players rather than clarify everything they're saying. If I decide an outcome that contradicts their intent, they can always correct me and I can retcon it.
I would say, ordinarily go ahead and let them finish what they are narrating. But it all depends on the DM and what they are doing.
With me, what I am usually narrating is a description of a scene -- you see this, and then this, and over here is that -- and not usually an action. I tend not to "narrate" those because of what you have said -- the players might want to interrupt. I often pre-write descriptive passages of places or people because I don't do those well on the fly. But I try not, in writing those descriptions, to have "time" advancing or specific actions being taken (unless the party walks in on an ongoing action, like a wizard in the middle of a ritual, then I will describe the ritual, as something that has been going on a while and they walked into it while it was in progress).
But all DMs are different and if a DM is trying to narrate a sequence of events that happens after the PCs show up, then you may need to speak up and say, "Can we take any actions here?" or something.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I saw a stream where the players kept interrupting the DM in important gameplay moments (not RP moments), and he cast "UNSKIPPABLE CUTSCENE!! SHUT UP!!" at them. It's become a joke at the table but also players reminding each other that they need to pay attention to the DM.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.