For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
For the umptieth time, nobody's being offended on behalf of imaginary beings. One person suggested that in their setting, a couple of races would prefer to have a name of their own to call themselves that has no connotations they might not like unlike the one used in Common by other races. That's all this is about. Nobody's saying all halflings should resent the longshanks for implying they are lacking in the tallness department and thus inferior. It's not a change to canonical lore. It's not saying WotC has racist tendencies towards the little people. It's a flavour thing at one table. I mean, I've seen examples in this thread, from someone who thinks that it's a bad idea for whatever reason, of having races at their table using derogatory terms for other races. That's pretty much the same thing. It's a bit of racial seasoning one DM is thinking of using that has no bearing on anyone else. I find it much more surprising that so many people seem to take enough offense at this notion that they feel the need to complain about it.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
I would be tempted to start a thread asking if there is a better name for Elves, since in the real world they are usually associated as a work force (who apparently can never leave an Arctic gulag) for Santa, or making cookies, all the time while wearing funny hats. I would ask if all the Elves in the real world are offended by such stereotypes, and if when they play D&D if they are offended by such stereotypes. But given that like Halflings, Elves don't exist in the real world, so it is difficult to find any Elves to ask. Also, such a thread would get me banned.
If it were just one person suggesting they wanted to name their Halflings and Dwarves something else then perhaps they should have just said that in their initial post and asked for suggestions for a new name - and put the thread in the Homebrew section. That way we wouldn't have had 9 pages of people having a philosophical argument about the feelings of imaginary folk to imaginary racism.
It's kind of dumb to ask for a name that has no negative connotations without, you know, mentioning you don't want it to have negative connotations. We've had most of these 9 pages because people apparently can't let it go that someone asks a simple question about something that doesn't fit in their way of thinking.
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Some people must not have any fun playing this great game.
We re nerds - complaining is half the fun.
Not in this instance its not. Its childish and counterproductive. Being offended over fantasy races that in no way, shape or form resemble real world peoples takes no courage. And WotC, kowtowing to these cretins, lacks a spine. Lickspittles, the lot of them.
Some people must not have any fun playing this great game.
We re nerds - complaining is half the fun.
Not in this instance its not. Its childish and counterproductive. Being offended over fantasy races that in no way, shape or form resemble real world peoples takes no courage. And WotC, kowtowing to these cretins, lacks a spine. Lickspittles, the lot of them.
I presume that, like myself, you are not a member of a minority.
That means neither you nor I have any right to dismiss someone else's concerns about aspects of racism within D&D, or any other game.
I'm not sure why people are getting so triggered about the very idea that someone wants to change the name of a race. It's homebrew, only for their setting, and doesn't effect you in any way. You are making this a problem, not the other way around.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I'm not sure why people are getting so triggered about the very idea that someone wants to change the name of a race. It's homebrew, only for their setting, and doesn't effect you in any way. You are making this a problem, not the other way around.
If that was true, and "It's homebrew only for their setting", then why would the OP even create the thread in the first place? Surely any person who has the imagination and strength of will (yeah, DM's have to be willful) to create their own D&D setting does not need the approval of the D&D community at large and would not even waste their time creating such a thread.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki, the halflings refer to themselves as hin. They are traditionally nomadic, and their geographical origins are uncertain, but thought to be south of Shaar. (If their origins are discovered, their proper name could be toponymic.)
The hin are amused by foreign insults against them, rather than offended. So it seems they embraced the nickname halfling, as a humorous nickname. (In Norse cultures, and other cultures where nicknames are significant, the nicknames are sometimes humorous.)
While traditionally nomadic, most hin families today have settled down, forming hin communities at the outskirts of other civilizations, including human, elf, gnome, and dwarf. The nickname halfling originates from the humanized co.munities, but is embraced elsewhere as well.
(Personally, I find this FR explanation for the name halfling as plausible, and as realistic as a reallife king being called Blue Tooth to his face. Other humorous nicknames include Rolo, originally called Ganga Rolfr, "walking Rolf" because he was so tall that he was unable to ride horses, so had to walk while everyone else rode on ahead of him. Likewise, Ivan the Boneless suffered from medical gigantism, and was called boneless in the sense of unlimited growth. Humoros nicknames are a thing, and indeed evidence how human cultures have embraced the hin.
Regarding the German meaning of hin. I dont speak German. As far as I can tell, hin literally means "there". It can be used in the phrase "That is there", in the sense of, It has reached that point, to mean worn out, no longer functioning. But it normally means "there", in every other sense as well. Compare the English phrases, "Go there", and "I cant believe you just went there". In this phrase, "there" means a subject matter that is impolite or unfair to bring up in a discussion. Yet, despite this idiom, the English word "there" never stops meaning there in other senses too.
So for the hin / halfling, there is a reallife connotation that the halfling are the people who come from "There". I suggest, this refers to the fact that the ancestral hin are nomads, whose origins were lost from their memory, so they themsmselves are unsure where they came from. Thus, this too is a humorous name for themselves. Where did they come from? From over "There" somewhere.
Even if the hin come from a place that is worn out, no longer functioning, it would simply mean their place of origin is no longer inhabitable, and as nomads, they have moved on from there.
In sum, I am comfortable where the Forgotten Realms setting uses the names hin and halfling. They convey a sense of the mirth of hin cultures.)
I'm not sure why people are getting so triggered about the very idea that someone wants to change the name of a race. It's homebrew, only for their setting, and doesn't effect you in any way. You are making this a problem, not the other way around.
If that was true, and "It's homebrew only for their setting", then why would the OP even create the thread in the first place? Surely any person who has the imagination and strength of will (yeah, DM's have to be willful) to create their own D&D setting does not need the approval of the D&D community at large and would not even waste their time creating such a thread.
They were looking for names for the races? Read the OP, the main query in it is what to call Dwarves and Halflings.
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This is turning into off-topic inception. The point of this thread, as evidenced in the quote I placed above, is to discuss new names for Dwarves and Halflings. It was not to discuss the motive behind those names, and the OP did not want a flame war to occur. If you were to create a thread called "Tasha's is bad", the objective of the thread would be to discuss Tasha's.
Well, go back several pages. I already supplied the names these races are called in Greyhawk. You're welcome.
Regarding the original post, I agree with its concerns.
For the sake of the verisimilitude of the setting, it is notable that halfling has a possibly derogatory nickname. It refers to their childlike quality, being small and cute, compared to a human. It requires an explanation. If there is no plausible explanation, then there would be a need for a name change − in order for the setting to make sense.
In my eyes, the endonym "hin" is fine − and possibly connotes their ancestral nomadism.
I view "halfling" as a nickname that the hin find amusing, and welcome.
So for me, these names have satisfactory explanations. But the colorful term "halfing" is sensitive. In other settings, and according to the tastes of various players, the term might be less acceptable.
For me, the topic is worthwhile to discuss within the D&D community. Because when we create races and build worlds, we need to think about these kinds of implications, both for the sake of an interesting game and for the sake of reallife implications.
Looking at the Denham Tracts that list names from British folkbelief, these are different kinds of spirits. They are immaterial spirits. While they have force, they lack substance.
It is awkward to use a reallife name of a spirit, for a creature of flesh and blood. Indeed, this is a Tolkienism, and where D&D is the most derivative from Tolkien fiction.
Where "hobbit" is originally a kind of house sprite − the intangible aspect of a home − the hobbit of Tolkien is a species, much like reallife Homo floresiensis.
I prefer to keep reallife names as mythologically accurate as possible when statting them within the game. In my campaign, the elves are immaterial nature spirits. The Norse elves are the minds of sunrays. The Scottish elves are the nocturnal minds of the surface of a fertile soil. All elves are animistic beings who personify fate, magic, and beauty.
I am ok with the idea that "high elves" and "wood elves" are the descendants of ancient spirits who materialized to live among humans, and chose to remain mortals. That is close enough to reallife folkbeliefs about elves, that it can merit the artistic license.
As a rule, when D&D uses a reallife name from a reallife culture, it should be as accurate as possible and as respectful to reallife culture as possible. Conversely, where the D&D fantasy creature diverges from reallife, its name should diverge from the reallife name too.
With regard to the D&D halfling. I am glad D&D terminate the use of "hobbit", because the halfling has less in common with the British sprite. (While the reallife "hobbit" is obscure, the folkbeliefs concerning hob and related creatures are well understood.)
I have always viewed the D&D halfling as an other branch of the reallife human species, again much like the difference between Homo sapiens versus Homo floresiensis. The 5e halfling is mortal, except for a mysterious association with luck and fortune, that connotes the fairy realm. Even this can be understood as a form of mysticism that is peculiar to their nature and nurture.
It is tricky to come up with a good name for such a creature for gaming purposes. "Halfling" is clearly a nickname. But "Hin" is moreorless a made-up sound whose meaning is opaque.
The halfling does kinda exist in reallife, and scientists happen to name it the species after the modern name of the island that their fossils were found, Flores. This modern name of course has nothing to do with what their reallife language and culture would call themselves.
This is turning into off-topic inception. The point of this thread, as evidenced in the quote I placed above, is to discuss new names for Dwarves and Halflings. It was not to discuss the motive behind those names, and the OP did not want a flame war to occur. If you were to create a thread called "Tasha's is bad", the objective of the thread would be to discuss Tasha's.
Well, go back several pages. I already supplied the names these races are called in Greyhawk. You're welcome.
I am unsure how helpful the Greyhawk names are.
One, they come from the Greyhawk setting, not the Forgotten Realms setting.
Two, they are little more than garbled reallife names. One might as well use Pig Latin: uman-hay, elf-ay, arf-dway, alfling-hay, ome-gnay, orc-ay, iefling-tay, agonborn-dray, ...
The Grayhawk name for halfling, is a garbled "hobbit", namely "hobniz". This wouldnt really resolve the issues of the original post. The term "hobbit" and its variant "hobniz" are less usable. "Hob" has dissimilar reallife meaning. An equivalent "halfniz" would still ask why "half"?
I am guessing the Greyhawk element "-niz" is a variant of Scandinavian "nisse"? If so, the D&D halfling is neither like a hob nor like a nisse.
One, they come from the Greyhawk setting, not the Forgotten Realms setting.
Two, they are little more than garbled reallife names. One might as well use Pig Latin: uman-hay, elf-ay, arf-dway, alfling-hay, ome-gnay, orc-ay, iefling-tay, agonborn-dray, ...
The Greyhawk name for halfling, is a garbled "hobbit", namely "hobniz". This wouldnt really resolve the issues of the original post. The term "hobbit" and its variant "hobniz" are less usable. "Hob" has dissimilar reallife meaning. An equivalent "halfniz" would still ask why "half"?
I am guessing the Greyhawk element "-niz" is a variant of Scandinavian "nisse"? If so, the D&D halfling is neither like a hob nor like a nisse.
Hobniz is a made up word, so its not like Tolkien Enterprises, aka The Saul Zaentz Company, can go after it. Its NOT Hobbit and thus no a copyright violation of a word popularized by Tolkien. That's why TSR changed them to Halflings in AD&D from brown box D&D (and why subsequent reprintings removed the terms Hobbits, Ents, Nazgul and Balrogs). That's the point of filing off the serial numbers to something and using it. And maybe Gary was thinking Nisse, but I have no idea if he was or not. And its only for Gnomes and Halflings. And Greyhawk was first the first official campaign setting, so its not like they can't "retcon" the rest of the multiverse to conform to it, since WotC seems to have no problem defiling Gary's works for their own purposes.
Or hey, use the Blackmoor term for a related race called the Docrae. They're like Halflings, but less sedentary and more warlike.
I really don’t see what is wrong with the words. Each race has its own words, in its own language to describe themselves. The words “halfling” and “dwarf” etc are common words, used by other races who do not speak the languages of said races.
That being said, any race who has its own unique language will also have their own words to describe halflings and dwarfs and so on.
Personally I treat common as the native language of humans in my games, and because humans are so, well, common, all over the world, most of the world speaks “human” as well as their own races language. So the words “halfling” and “dwarf” are used all over the world. That doesn’t mean that they are what those races are called though; only what humans, and anyone else speaking common, calls them, and I really don’t see what is wrong with that. Even in the rap world, we have different languages that have different words to describe the same thing.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I would be tempted to start a thread asking if there is a better name for Elves, since in the real world they are usually associated as a work force (who apparently can never leave an Arctic gulag) for Santa, or making cookies, all the time while wearing funny hats. I would ask if all the Elves in the real world are offended by such stereotypes, and if when they play D&D if they are offended by such stereotypes. But given that like Halflings, Elves don't exist in the real world, so it is difficult to find any Elves to ask. Also, such a thread would get me banned.
It's kind of dumb to ask for a name that has no negative connotations without, you know, mentioning you don't want it to have negative connotations. We've had most of these 9 pages because people apparently can't let it go that someone asks a simple question about something that doesn't fit in their way of thinking.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
We re nerds - complaining is half the fun.
he / him
Not in this instance its not. Its childish and counterproductive. Being offended over fantasy races that in no way, shape or form resemble real world peoples takes no courage. And WotC, kowtowing to these cretins, lacks a spine. Lickspittles, the lot of them.
I presume that, like myself, you are not a member of a minority.
That means neither you nor I have any right to dismiss someone else's concerns about aspects of racism within D&D, or any other game.
I'm not sure why people are getting so triggered about the very idea that someone wants to change the name of a race. It's homebrew, only for their setting, and doesn't effect you in any way. You are making this a problem, not the other way around.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
If that was true, and "It's homebrew only for their setting", then why would the OP even create the thread in the first place? Surely any person who has the imagination and strength of will (yeah, DM's have to be willful) to create their own D&D setting does not need the approval of the D&D community at large and would not even waste their time creating such a thread.
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki, the halflings refer to themselves as hin. They are traditionally nomadic, and their geographical origins are uncertain, but thought to be south of Shaar. (If their origins are discovered, their proper name could be toponymic.)
The hin are amused by foreign insults against them, rather than offended. So it seems they embraced the nickname halfling, as a humorous nickname. (In Norse cultures, and other cultures where nicknames are significant, the nicknames are sometimes humorous.)
While traditionally nomadic, most hin families today have settled down, forming hin communities at the outskirts of other civilizations, including human, elf, gnome, and dwarf. The nickname halfling originates from the humanized co.munities, but is embraced elsewhere as well.
(Personally, I find this FR explanation for the name halfling as plausible, and as realistic as a reallife king being called Blue Tooth to his face. Other humorous nicknames include Rolo, originally called Ganga Rolfr, "walking Rolf" because he was so tall that he was unable to ride horses, so had to walk while everyone else rode on ahead of him. Likewise, Ivan the Boneless suffered from medical gigantism, and was called boneless in the sense of unlimited growth. Humoros nicknames are a thing, and indeed evidence how human cultures have embraced the hin.
Regarding the German meaning of hin. I dont speak German. As far as I can tell, hin literally means "there". It can be used in the phrase "That is there", in the sense of, It has reached that point, to mean worn out, no longer functioning. But it normally means "there", in every other sense as well. Compare the English phrases, "Go there", and "I cant believe you just went there". In this phrase, "there" means a subject matter that is impolite or unfair to bring up in a discussion. Yet, despite this idiom, the English word "there" never stops meaning there in other senses too.
So for the hin / halfling, there is a reallife connotation that the halfling are the people who come from "There". I suggest, this refers to the fact that the ancestral hin are nomads, whose origins were lost from their memory, so they themsmselves are unsure where they came from. Thus, this too is a humorous name for themselves. Where did they come from? From over "There" somewhere.
Even if the hin come from a place that is worn out, no longer functioning, it would simply mean their place of origin is no longer inhabitable, and as nomads, they have moved on from there.
In sum, I am comfortable where the Forgotten Realms setting uses the names hin and halfling. They convey a sense of the mirth of hin cultures.)
he / him
They were looking for names for the races? Read the OP, the main query in it is what to call Dwarves and Halflings.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I presume then that you are suggesting that the OP is a Halfling living in Faerun, and therefore has the right?
got halfing, just call the hobbits? why need at different name than that?
i have no ideas for dwarves
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
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Well, go back several pages. I already supplied the names these races are called in Greyhawk. You're welcome.
Regarding the original post, I agree with its concerns.
For the sake of the verisimilitude of the setting, it is notable that halfling has a possibly derogatory nickname. It refers to their childlike quality, being small and cute, compared to a human. It requires an explanation. If there is no plausible explanation, then there would be a need for a name change − in order for the setting to make sense.
In my eyes, the endonym "hin" is fine − and possibly connotes their ancestral nomadism.
I view "halfling" as a nickname that the hin find amusing, and welcome.
So for me, these names have satisfactory explanations. But the colorful term "halfing" is sensitive. In other settings, and according to the tastes of various players, the term might be less acceptable.
For me, the topic is worthwhile to discuss within the D&D community. Because when we create races and build worlds, we need to think about these kinds of implications, both for the sake of an interesting game and for the sake of reallife implications.
he / him
Looking at the Denham Tracts that list names from British folkbelief, these are different kinds of spirits. They are immaterial spirits. While they have force, they lack substance.
It is awkward to use a reallife name of a spirit, for a creature of flesh and blood. Indeed, this is a Tolkienism, and where D&D is the most derivative from Tolkien fiction.
Where "hobbit" is originally a kind of house sprite − the intangible aspect of a home − the hobbit of Tolkien is a species, much like reallife Homo floresiensis.
I prefer to keep reallife names as mythologically accurate as possible when statting them within the game. In my campaign, the elves are immaterial nature spirits. The Norse elves are the minds of sunrays. The Scottish elves are the nocturnal minds of the surface of a fertile soil. All elves are animistic beings who personify fate, magic, and beauty.
I am ok with the idea that "high elves" and "wood elves" are the descendants of ancient spirits who materialized to live among humans, and chose to remain mortals. That is close enough to reallife folkbeliefs about elves, that it can merit the artistic license.
As a rule, when D&D uses a reallife name from a reallife culture, it should be as accurate as possible and as respectful to reallife culture as possible. Conversely, where the D&D fantasy creature diverges from reallife, its name should diverge from the reallife name too.
With regard to the D&D halfling. I am glad D&D terminate the use of "hobbit", because the halfling has less in common with the British sprite. (While the reallife "hobbit" is obscure, the folkbeliefs concerning hob and related creatures are well understood.)
I have always viewed the D&D halfling as an other branch of the reallife human species, again much like the difference between Homo sapiens versus Homo floresiensis. The 5e halfling is mortal, except for a mysterious association with luck and fortune, that connotes the fairy realm. Even this can be understood as a form of mysticism that is peculiar to their nature and nurture.
It is tricky to come up with a good name for such a creature for gaming purposes. "Halfling" is clearly a nickname. But "Hin" is moreorless a made-up sound whose meaning is opaque.
The halfling does kinda exist in reallife, and scientists happen to name it the species after the modern name of the island that their fossils were found, Flores. This modern name of course has nothing to do with what their reallife language and culture would call themselves.
What would you call this species of life?
he / him
I am unsure how helpful the Greyhawk names are.
One, they come from the Greyhawk setting, not the Forgotten Realms setting.
Two, they are little more than garbled reallife names. One might as well use Pig Latin: uman-hay, elf-ay, arf-dway, alfling-hay, ome-gnay, orc-ay, iefling-tay, agonborn-dray, ...
The Grayhawk name for halfling, is a garbled "hobbit", namely "hobniz". This wouldnt really resolve the issues of the original post. The term "hobbit" and its variant "hobniz" are less usable. "Hob" has dissimilar reallife meaning. An equivalent "halfniz" would still ask why "half"?
I am guessing the Greyhawk element "-niz" is a variant of Scandinavian "nisse"? If so, the D&D halfling is neither like a hob nor like a nisse.
he / him
Hobniz is a made up word, so its not like Tolkien Enterprises, aka The Saul Zaentz Company, can go after it. Its NOT Hobbit and thus no a copyright violation of a word popularized by Tolkien. That's why TSR changed them to Halflings in AD&D from brown box D&D (and why subsequent reprintings removed the terms Hobbits, Ents, Nazgul and Balrogs). That's the point of filing off the serial numbers to something and using it. And maybe Gary was thinking Nisse, but I have no idea if he was or not. And its only for Gnomes and Halflings. And Greyhawk was first the first official campaign setting, so its not like they can't "retcon" the rest of the multiverse to conform to it, since WotC seems to have no problem defiling Gary's works for their own purposes.
Or hey, use the Blackmoor term for a related race called the Docrae. They're like Halflings, but less sedentary and more warlike.
I really don’t see what is wrong with the words. Each race has its own words, in its own language to describe themselves. The words “halfling” and “dwarf” etc are common words, used by other races who do not speak the languages of said races.
That being said, any race who has its own unique language will also have their own words to describe halflings and dwarfs and so on.
Personally I treat common as the native language of humans in my games, and because humans are so, well, common, all over the world, most of the world speaks “human” as well as their own races language. So the words “halfling” and “dwarf” are used all over the world. That doesn’t mean that they are what those races are called though; only what humans, and anyone else speaking common, calls them, and I really don’t see what is wrong with that. Even in the rap world, we have different languages that have different words to describe the same thing.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I suspect that D&D "hin" derives etymologically from a contraction of "halfling" − h’in’.
he / him