The changes to racial ability score increases have been one of the most controversial actions in this edition. While there have been many debates about it, I do not want this thread to turn into one of them.
While I understood the reasons the changes were implemented, the execution was less than satisfactory. The changes feel rather boring, making character creation more one dimensional. You might as well just tack a couple extra points onto point buy. I was brainstorming ways to improve upon this situation, allowing for a greater variety of characters but still maintaining an interesting character creation process. Currently, the background of a character doesn't have that much of a mechanical effect. I thought it would make perfect sense for background to determine ability score increases, since that is what a character has spent most of their pre adventuring life doing.
Adding ability scores to backgrounds does make choice of species less important. This system will make the traits of a species much more important, allowing jankier ones to perform better. Of course, this variant would be optional in a game, so if you want to stick with the original system, you can.
This is the previous version of the rules.
Acolyte: +2 to WIS, +1 to INT Charlatan: +2 to DEX or CHA, and +1 to the ability score you did not pick for the first choice Criminal: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to INT or CON Entertainer: +2 to CHA, +1 to DEX Folk Hero: +2 to STR or CON, +1 to CHA Guild Artisan: +2 to INT, +1 to CHA Hermit: +2 to WIS, +2 to INT, -1 CHA Noble: +1 to CON, +1 to CHA, +1 to another ability score of your choice Outlander: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to WIS or CON Sage: +2 to INT- gain expertise in Arcana or History Sailor: +2 to CON, +1 STR Soldier: +2 to STR, +1 to another ability score of your choice Urchin: +2 to DEX, +1 to CHA
Total of each ability score: STR: 9 DEX: 9 CON: 7 INT: 8 WIS: 7 CHA: 8
Here is the updated version:
After reading the comments and considering, I think I am going to go with the following system:
Your species gives you a choice between two ability scores to add a point to. If it is a species with subspecies, then the base will determine one option and the sub the other
Your Background will give you a choice between another two scores to add a single point to.
Finally, your class will either give you a fixed point, or a choice.
This will in give you in total +3 points to your character, which is in par with most species's (Is that the possessive of species?) increases.
First, here is a list of species and the scores you get to choose from. (I'm just doing PHB first, if people like this system I'll do the other books.)
Dwarf: CON. Hill dwarf: WIS, Mountain: STR Elf: DEX, High: INT, Wood: WIS, Dark: CHA Halfling: DEX, Lightfoot: CHA, Stout: CON Human: Any score of your choice. Variant humans do not get this and instead get a feat. (This is very powerful, and I'm not sure if it is balanced.) Dragonborn: STR or CHA Gnome: INT, Forest: DEX, Rock: CON Half-elf: CHA, or instead gain your choice of two skills. This is in addition to the two skills you already get. Half-Orc: STR or CON Tiefling: INT or CHA
Next, backgrounds.
Acolyte: INT or WIS Charlatan: DEX or CHA Criminal: STR or DEX Entertainer: DEX or CHA Folk Hero: STR or CON Guild Artisan: DEX or CHA Hermit: INT or WIS Noble: CHA or CON Outlander: WIS or CON Sage: INT Sailor: DEX or CON Soldier: STR or DEX Urchin: DEX or WIS
Finally, Class.
Artificer: INT Barbarian: STR Bard: CHA Cleric: WIS Druid: WIS Fighter: STR or DEX Monk: DEX or WIS Paladin: STR or CHA Ranger: DEX or WIS Sorcerer: CHA Warlock: CHA Wizard: INT
All in all, not that complex. Here is an example character's bonuses: Vialia, Lightfoot Halfling Sorcerer. Since Vialia is a Lightfoot halfling, she can choose between getting a bonus to DEX or CHA. She will choose CHA. Next, her background is Urchin, granting her a choice between DEX or WIS. She will choose DEX. Finally, she gets an additional +1 CHA from her class. Vialia's final bonuses are +2 CHA, +1 DEX. Thanks for the feedback, it really helped. What do you think of this iteration?
EDIT: maybe you could have something like a +2 from background, and a plus 1 from race? also, its a cool concept, but it also means you would have to re make some of the races, as some are powerful because they have better ASIs. half elves and humans are examples. you would also have to nerf V human, as it is already op, and it has a weaker ASI than other races.
A lot of this is good. There are a lot of other backgrounds in other books that you may need to do, but this is a good start.
I second making the background give you a total bonus of +2 (which have to be +1 to two different abilities) and your race or class give you the additional +1 (character's choice). That way, it's still fairly simple, while also being intuitive.
For example, you could be a Mountain Dwarf Artificer with the Guild Artisan background. First, you get a +1 bonus to Intelligence and Charisma from your background, and then you either choose to get an additional +1 to Intelligence from your class or +1 to Constitution or Strength from your race. This is what the classes would have for bonuses in this system if you chose it:
Artificer +1 to Intelligence
Barbarian +1 to Strength or Constitution
Bard +1 to Charisma
Cleric +1 to Wisdom
Druid +1 to Wisdom
Fighter +1 to Strength or Dexterity
Monk +1 to Dexterity or Wisdom
Paladin +1 to Charisma or Strength
Ranger +1 to Dexterity, Strength, or Wisdom
Rogue +1 to Dexterity
Sorcerer +1 to Charisma
Warlock +1 to Charisma
Wizard +1 to Intelligence
Or, instead of choosing the bonus from your class, you could choose one that is granted by your race or subrace.
That way, your race and training both matter for your ability scores, but you choose which one has more importance.
Just a recommendation. If you don't like it, just ignore this.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
EDIT: maybe you could have something like a +2 from background, and a plus 1 from race? also, its a cool concept, but it also means you would have to re make some of the races, as some are powerful because they have better ASIs. half elves and humans are examples. you would also have to nerf V human, as it is already op, and it has a weaker ASI than other races.
Folk Hero makes more sense as CHA, so I will change it to be so. As for your second idea, I considered it. Here's a couple ways I could execute it:
Some species get a floating point that they can put into any ability score. Species like Yuan-ti, Vuman, and Aarocokra wouldn't get this. (I would also remove a point from the backgrounds.
Each species has a point in a specific attribute. This kinda goes against the whole idea of the changes, but I don't think a single point matters that much and it could add to the flavor of the species.
Third's idea, where you get a point depending on your class.
Each of these has different benefits. The first is better for balance purposes, removing some of the ASI's of the more powerful species, the second for flavor, and the third for simplicity. I think I will change the backgrounds to only provide +2 to ability scores, but I'm not sure which of the three methods I should use for getting the third bonus.
A lot of this is good. There are a lot of other backgrounds in other books that you may need to do, but this is a good start.
I second making the background give you a total bonus of +2 (which have to be +1 to two different abilities) and your race or class give you the additional +1 (character's choice). That way, it's still fairly simple, while also being intuitive.
For example, you could be a Mountain Dwarf Artificer with the Guild Artisan background. First, you get a +1 bonus to Intelligence and Charisma from your background, and then you either choose to get an additional +1 to Intelligence from your class or +1 to Constitution or Strength from your race. This is what the classes would have for bonuses in this system if you chose it:
Artificer +1 to Intelligence
Barbarian +1 to Strength or Constitution
Bard +1 to Charisma
Cleric +1 to Wisdom
Druid +1 to Wisdom
Fighter +1 to Strength or Dexterity
Monk +1 to Dexterity or Wisdom
Paladin +1 to Charisma or Strength
Ranger +1 to Dexterity, Strength, or Wisdom
Rogue +1 to Dexterity
Sorcerer +1 to Charisma
Warlock +1 to Charisma
Wizard +1 to Intelligence
Or, instead of choosing the bonus from your class, you could choose one that is granted by your race or subrace.
That way, your race and training both matter for your ability scores, but you choose which one has more importance.
Just a recommendation. If you don't like it, just ignore this.
Yeah, there a lot of backgrounds to do. Luckily, these don't take that much time to make, and you really only need the name of the background to make them. I addressed your second point in my above paragraph.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
However, I do have one small nitpick: please remove the -1 to Cha from Hermit. I understand why you did this, but it still is really annoying. As of now, no Races (well, technically Volo's Kobold/Orc, but I think those are getting changed soon) give a negative ability score bonus. And for good reason. It reduces the effectiveness of certain builds, and is a general pain in the butt. I want to play my Hermit Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock! All of those Classes could make some sense with the Hermit background, but currently they would be extremely difficult to build/play well. And, it makes other Backgrounds just straight up better than the Hermit. As such, please remove it.
Beyond that, though, its great! Really fun idea, works quite well.
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Seven there shall be/In the halls of the eighth/Eights shall witness/Eight and eight and eight and eight/Blood of the father/Blood of the sun/Endless darkness/Day is done
Hm. Reminds me of an article James Haeck wrote last year: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/563-reimagining-racial-ability-scores. One of the ideas he came up with is one I always find myself wishing the game had favored, and have sorta been massaging in the back of my head since. Namely, the idea that all three of the major decisions you get in character generation - Species, Background, Class - each contribute one point to your overall character.
Almost any given species or subspecies already has two ability affinities - Dexterity and Intelligence for high elves, as one example. Any given class usually has two abilities that could be considered its key abilities, or at least its most key abilities. And Joel has already started work on identifying two key abilities for each background. What I think could be a much better way of handling this is to solidify that idea, and allow a player to choose one of two ability affinities from each leg of their character's Triumverate of Stuff.
Playing a High Elf? That high elf can choose a +1 to either Dexterity or Intelligence. Decide to make it a Criminal? Choose between another +1 Dex or a +1 to Charisma. End up playing a Fighter? Choose between a +1 to Strength or Dexterity.
That way, each stage of character creation is important and impactful on your numbers without dominating your numbers, and choosing between two different affinities at each stage should ideally allow the player enough wiggle room to avoid a 'bad' allocation for their concept while still enforcing a degree of Thematic Correctness(C) on the process. You'd have to include a caveat that no ability score can be increased by more than +2, i.e. no picking Dexterity affinity three times, but that should be simple.
Frankly, there's a lot of ways one could make chargen in 5e better. But this would be a start. Hopefully something in there is helpful. Good luck, Joel.
I like Pathfinder 2's take on it. Ancestry (Race) +1 to a specific stat, -1 to a specific stat, +1 to one of choice. Except humans who had +1 to stats of choice. Background: +1 to choice between 2 stats. Class: +1 to the key stat for the class.
Personally, I appreciate the spread of this. The +/- adds realism. The idea of a halfling being able to progress in strength the same as an Orc, something nearly 3 times the size and weight, is a distracting 'dafuq?!' in the brain. The fact that your background has no influence at all on your stats is also weird. Wouldn't a blacksmith banging metal all day be more likely to be stronger than somebody who spent all day sitting and reading? And so on.
Normally I'd say implementing this would have balancing issues - then Tasha's book appears to signal that WotC don't give a flying rat's arse about balance. So, go nuts I guess.
The designers at WotC stated that races are balanced around how many ASIs they have, not where they are allocated (I definitely disagree with this, but that's what they said as an excuse for the Customizing your Origin System). If they think it's fine, and if another system is less balanced than this system would be, I think this would be "balanced" to the extent that is important.
Side Rant about why WotC was incorrect in this statement:
The most glaringly obvious reason that their statement is incorrect is the fact that not all Ability Scores and Races are created equal. Charisma and Dexterity are objectively way more useful in 5e than Intelligence or Strength. This can lead to some imbalance issues when using the Customizing your Origin System, such as allowing Satyrs to get a +2 to Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence as an Arcane Trickster Rogue with GFB/BB and Shadow Blade (if the DM still allows this combo or doesn't do errata), or having a Fallen Aasimar with a +2 to Dexterity and +1 to Charisma as a Conquest Paladin with Studded Leather Armor, a Shield, and Rapier. For the most part, it's not really an issue, but it can be a problem with certain exploits and combos. This would not be an issue if certain races didn't have super OP features (stares blankly at the Yuan-Ti Pureblood) and if all of the ability scores were equally useful and balanced.
If all the races were decently balanced, and if the ability scores were all reasonably within the same power level, then there would be next to no issues with the Customize your Origin feature that lets you swap out racial ASIs. However, neither of those statements are true, which can lead to problems with this system. Due to this fact, I think this proposed system would be better in the purpose of balancing your ASI allocation than the current Customize your Origin system. A huge benefit that a system like this one would have over the Customize your Origin system is the fact that Half-Elves, Kobolds, and Mountain Dwarves have the same ASIs as everyone else, like they should have in the first place.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The changes to racial ability score increases have been one of the most controversial actions in this edition. While there have been many debates about it, I do not want this thread to turn into one of them.
While I understood the reasons the changes were implemented, the execution was less than satisfactory. The changes feel rather boring, making character creation more one dimensional. You might as well just tack a couple extra points onto point buy. I was brainstorming ways to improve upon this situation, allowing for a greater variety of characters but still maintaining an interesting character creation process. Currently, the background of a character doesn't have that much of a mechanical effect. I thought it would make perfect sense for background to determine ability score increases, since that is what a character has spent most of their pre adventuring life doing.
Adding ability scores to backgrounds does make choice of species less important. This system will make the traits of a species much more important, allowing jankier ones to perform better. Of course, this variant would be optional in a game, so if you want to stick with the original system, you can.
Acolyte: +2 to WIS, +1 to INT Charlatan: +2 to DEX or CHA, and +1 to the ability score you did not pick for the first choice Criminal: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to INT or CON Entertainer: +2 to CHA, +1 to DEX Folk Hero: +2 to STR or CON, +1 to CHA Guild Artisan: +2 to INT, +1 to CHA Hermit: +2 to WIS, +2 to INT, -1 CHA Noble: +1 to CON, +1 to CHA, +1 to another ability score of your choice Outlander: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to WIS or CON Sage: +2 to INT- gain expertise in Arcana or History Sailor: +2 to CON, +1 STR Soldier: +2 to STR, +1 to another ability score of your choice Urchin: +2 to DEX, +1 to CHA
Total of each ability score: STR: 9 DEX: 9 CON: 7 INT: 8 WIS: 7 CHA: 8
I would appreciate feedback, and thank you for reading.
i think you should allow the possibility for soldiers to use dexterity
After reading the comments and considering, I think I am going to go with the following system:
Your species gives you a choice between two ability scores to add a point to. If it is a species with subspecies, then the base will determine one option and the sub the other
Your Background will give you a choice between another two scores to add a single point to.
Finally, your class will either give you a fixed point, or a choice.
This will in give you in total +3 points to your character, which is in par with most species's (Is that the possessive of species?) increases.
First, here is a list of species and the scores you get to choose from. (I'm just doing PHB first, if people like this system I'll do the other books.)
Dwarf: CON. Hill dwarf: WIS, Mountain: STR Elf: DEX, High: INT, Wood: WIS, Dark: CHA Halfling: DEX, Lightfoot: CHA, Stout: CON Human: Any score of your choice. Variant humans do not get this and instead get a feat. (This is very powerful, and I'm not sure if it is balanced.) Dragonborn: STR or CHA Gnome: INT, Forest: DEX, Rock: CON Half-elf: CHA, or instead gain your choice of two skills. This is in addition to the two skills you already get. Half-Orc: STR or CON Tiefling: INT or CHA
Next, backgrounds.
Acolyte: INT or WIS Charlatan: DEX or CHA Criminal: STR or DEX Entertainer: DEX or CHA Folk Hero: STR or CON Guild Artisan: DEX or CHA Hermit: INT or WIS Noble: CHA or CON Outlander: WIS or CON Sage: INT Sailor: DEX or CON Soldier: STR or DEX Urchin: DEX or WIS
Finally, Class.
Artificer: INT Barbarian: STR Bard: CHA Cleric: WIS Druid: WIS Fighter: STR or DEX Monk: DEX or WIS Paladin: STR or CHA Ranger: DEX or WIS Sorcerer: CHA Warlock: CHA Wizard: INT
All in all, not that complex. Here is an example character's bonuses: Vialia, Lightfoot Halfling Sorcerer. Since Vialia is a Lightfoot halfling, she can choose between getting a bonus to DEX or CHA. She will choose CHA. Next, her background is Urchin, granting her a choice between DEX or WIS. She will choose DEX. Finally, she gets an additional +1 CHA from her class. Vialia's final bonuses are +2 CHA, +1 DEX. Thanks for the feedback, it really helped. What do you think of this iteration?
Okay! Finally got to read through the new version. It took me awhile to think it over, but I managed to convince myself that this is probably the best way to do it. It makes your species still determine a bit of your ability scores, while having the majority of it come from your training and occupation. That feels right to me.
This still makes Gnomes better at being Artificers or Wizards than Orcs, like our current system, as they can take the +2 bonus to INT from just their race and class, which would fee them up to taking any background of their choice for their other Ability Score boost. Orcs can be just as intelligent as a gnome, but it takes a bit more training and practicing for them to get to that state. The same thing applies to classes dependent on any other ability score. It just makes sense for an orc to be naturally stronger/healthier than a halfling, while they don't have to be if they choose to be trained a certain way. To me, this feels like a good balance of so called "realism" and freeing up a character from their race. If your Kobold wants to be as strong as a goliath, they can do so, but have to dedicate their choice of background and class to match what a goliath can get just from their race and background or class.
For specific notes on the races:
Dwarf: Looks good! For the other Dwarf subraces:
Duergar: INT
Mark of Warding: INT
Elf: This is good. I'll just do the subraces you didn't do here to speed up the process:
Sea: CON
Eladrin: CHA
Pallid: WIS
Shadar-Kai: CON
Mark of Shadow: CHA
Halfling: Good as well. Here are the subraces you didn't do:
Ghostwise: WIS
Lotusden: WIS
Mark of Healing: WIS
Mark of Hospitality: CHA
Human: The extra feat is unbalanced. I would make it so they don't get a racial ASI and every human gets a feat. Subraces:
Mark of Finding: WIS and CON
Mark of Handling: WIS and DEX
Mark of Making: Any
Mark of Passage: Any
Mark of the Sentinel: CON and WIS
Dragonborn: Also good. Also going to do the subraces:
Ravenite: STR and CON
Draconblood: INT and CHA
Gnome: No problem here. Subraces:
Deep: DEX
Mark of Scribing: CHA
Half-Elf: I would make this be "choose any ability score", and get rid of the free skill thing. Elves and Humans are both versatile enough that it makes sense for their children to have a little less versatility than humans, but more than elves. Subraces (Replacing the "any" from the base race):
Mark of Detection: WIS and INT
Mark of Storm: CHA and DEX
Half-Orc: Good. Subrace (replacing the STR and CON):
Mark of Finding: WIS and CON
Tiefling: This is also good. Subraces (replacing the race's CHA and INT):
Baalzebul: CHA and INT
Dispater: CHA and DEX
Fierna: CHA and WIS
Glasya: CHA and DEX
Levistus: CHA and CON
Mammon: CHA and INT
Mephistopheles: CHA and INT
Zariel: CHA and STR
Feral: DEX and INT
If you want, I can do the other races (and I do mean all of them. I am willing if it would help you along). Just ask, and I'll do it.
Specific notes on the backgrounds:
I will only comment on the ones that I feel need changing. The ones I don't comment on should be fine.
Acolyte: I understand the INT, but I personally would prefer for it to be Charisma for paladins. Criminal: Strength? That seems strange. I would do Wisdom. For the Spy, I would do DEX and CHA. Entertainer: Looks good, but the Gladiator should get STR and DEX. Folk Hero: I would do DEX and STR. Guild Artisan: Replace Dexterity with Intelligence. We want Artificers to take this, remember? Noble: Replace CON with INT. Nobles aren't known for being healthy, they're known for being conniving and well learned. Knights should get STR instead of INT. Outlander: Yes WIS, no CON. Change CON to DEX. Sage: Add WIS. Sailor: Yes CON, but replace DEX with WIS. I'd make Pirates get DEX and CHA. Urchin: I think I would change WIS to CHA.
Here are all the other backgrounds, just to help out. If you think anything needs changing, feel free to do so:
Anthropologist: CHA and INT Archaeologist: INT and DEX Athlete: DEX and STR Azorius Functionary: WIS and CHA Boros Legionnaire: STR and CHA Celebrity Adventurer's Scion: Any City Watch: STR and WIS Clan Crafter: CON and INT Cloistered Scholar: INT and WIS Courtier: WIS and CHA Dimir Operative: DEX and INT Faceless: DEX and CHA Faction Agent: Dependent on your faction (Order of the Gauntlets would get STR and WIS, Harpers would get INT and CHA, Emerald Enclave would get WIS and INT, Lord's Alliance gets INT and CON, Zhentarim gets DEX and CHA, etc for other factions). Failed Merchant: CHA and INT Far Traveler: Any Fisher: WIS and STR Gambler: WIS and CHA Golgari Agent: CON and DEX Grinner: INT and CHA Gruul Anarch: STR and WIS Haunted One: INT and CON House Agent: INT and CHA Inheritor: WIS and INT Izzet Engineer: INT and DEX Knight of the Order: CHA and INT Marine: STR and WIS Mercenary Veteran: STR and CHA Orzhov Representative: CHA and WIS Plaintiff: CHA and WIS Rakdos Cultist: CHA and DEX Rival Intern: INT and CHA Selesnya Initiate: WIS and CHA Shipwright: INT and WIS Simic Scientist: INT and CON Smuggler: CHA and STR Urban Bounty Hunter: DEX and CHA Urthgardt Tribe Member: STR and CON Volstrucker Agent: INT and DEX Waterdhavian Noble: INT and CHA
Thoughts on Class:
I would expand these a bit, with two options each, in order to make it so a Gnome Artificer who takes the Sage background can take a different ability score (I know race/subrace will already allow this, but this will allow them to have a bit more of a choice in the matter most often). I would also specify that this comes from the class you start out as, just for multiclassing purposes.
Artificer: CON and INT
Barbarian: STR and CON
Bard: DEX and CHA
Cleric: WIS and CHa
Druid: CON and WIS
Fighter: STR/DEX and CON
Monk: DEX and WIS
Paladin: DEX/STR and CHA
Ranger: DEX/STR and CHA
Rogue: DEX and INT/WIS/CHA
Sorcerer: CON and CHA
Warlock: INT and CHA
Wizard: INT and WIS
I really like this, I think it is a huge improvement of the previous system. Now I just need to figure out how to move more proficiencies to background from the races (weapon, armor, and tool proficiencies, etc).
I hope this helps, and I am more than happy to help further if you would like me to.
Wow Third. You did a huge amount of work, and I thank you for that. First, I agree with everything you said in the Race section. The backgrounds are a bit more complex, so I'll comment on those.
Acolyte could be CHA. Honestly, either makes sense. INT for the religious scholar, CHA for the zealot. I agree with you, Criminal should be WIS/DEX Yep, Gladiator is STR/DEX DEX or STR makes sense on Folk Hero. Guild Artisan should totally have INT Noble changes are good All the other changes are right as well. My only concern is that there aren't many backgrounds that grant CON.
Wow, you did a lot of backgrounds! Thank you. They all look right.
I agree with your changes to Class as well. I think I'll do the rest of the species today or tomorrow, no need for you to do them. I appreciate the offer though.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
This seems like an interesting concept. It does make a lot more sense to use this system instead of the Tasha's or the old one, but some things need further thought.
Classes seem fine to me, except that you forgot to include the Rogue which, IMO, would be DEX only. Why? Because the Rogue can be created to be heavily reliant on one of INT/CHA/WIS depending on the subclass and other choices but they always need that DEX. The only way to resolve this is to give all of the options but that's a bit too versatile, maybe.
V.Humans are the same as always, actually. The only problem is that now the normal Human is even less viable than before, gaining no racial features and only +3 points to ability scores. Personally, I think a normal human should stay as it is now. "BuT pLus EIgHt To abIliTy sCOres?!" The thing is, normal humans the way the game is now are only picked when you roll an odd number on all of your ability scores. I don't think I have ever seen anyone picking them on another occasion when V.Human was also an option unless they really just wanted to do it because they wanted to do it. Getting more ASI will be a major factor to consider now. This might be too strong after all, but both the way it is now and your current suggestion do the normal Human no good.
A Half-Elf Rogue will be even stronger than ever now, but I guess the Half-Elf was always an OP race anyway.
Interesting. I'll break down class first, than move to race.
I can't believe I forgot a whole class. Rogue would definitely either be DEX/INT or DEX/CHA. If other classes are getting too choose between two scores, Rogue should as well.
Yes, Vhuman are the same as usual. I'm not sure about your suggestion for normal human, though. I really don't know how powerful it is, but the sticker shock of seing it get get 5 more asi's than normal exists. We all know normal human isn't broken though, in fact it is rather weak. So I am not sure about that.
I went with Third's changes to half-elf, it no longer gets that extra skill.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Wow Third. You did a huge amount of work, and I thank you for that. First, I agree with everything you said in the Race section. The backgrounds are a bit more complex, so I'll comment on those.
Acolyte could be CHA. Honestly, either makes sense. INT for the religious scholar, CHA for the zealot. I agree with you, Criminal should be WIS/DEX Yep, Gladiator is STR/DEX DEX or STR makes sense on Folk Hero. Guild Artisan should totally have INT Noble changes are good All the other changes are right as well. My only concern is that there aren't many backgrounds that grant CON.
Wow, you did a lot of backgrounds! Thank you. They all look right.
I agree with your changes to Class as well. I think I'll do the rest of the species today or tomorrow, no need for you to do them. I appreciate the offer though.
No problem. It did take a long time to find every single background, but it was worth the work.
Yeah, there aren't a ton of backgrounds that grant CON, but quite a lot of the races/subraces do. That just makes them more valuable if you want to have more HP than the others. There are a few good options that grant CON (Sailor, Haunted One, Clan Crafter), and there are the few that allow you to choose any ability score. IMO, species determines your health more than background does, IMO, but there are options to increase it.
Happy to help!
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
What I meant is that normal human is indeed too weak and that if it only has +3 points of increase and no other increases/racial traits it is even more underpowered than the current system one, which is also underpowered.
What I meant is that normal human is indeed too weak and that if it only has +3 points of increase and no other increases/racial traits it is even more underpowered than the current system one, which is also underpowered.
I personally would make the Variant Human be the base, and the normal human would ignore this system and just get its normal ASIs.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Okay, here are the rest of the races. I'm going off the info from memory and D&D Beyond's races page, so correct me if I am wrong.
Leonin: CON or STR Satyr: DEX or CHA Aarakocra: DEX or WIS Genasi CON, Air DEX, Earth STR, Fire INT, Water WIS Goliath: STR or CON Aasimar: CHA, Protector WIS, Scourge CON, Fallen STR Bugbear: STR or DEX Firbolg: STR or WIS Goblin: DEX or CON Hobgoblin: CON or INT Kenku: DEX or WIS Kobold: DEX or INT Lizardfolk: CON or WIS Orc: STR or CON Tabaxi: DEX or CHA Triton: STR, CON, or CHA Yuan-ti Pureblood: CHA or INT Tortle: STR, WIS Changeling: Any score Kalashtar: CHA or WIS Shifter: CON or DEX? Warforged: Any score Gith: INT, Githyanki STR, Githzerai WIS Centaur: STR or WIS Loxodon: CON or WIS Minotaur: STR or CON Simic Hybrid: Any score Vedalken: INT or WIS Verdan: CHA or CON Locathah: STR, DEX or CON Grung: DEX or CON
The changes to racial ability score increases have been one of the most controversial actions in this edition. While there have been many debates about it, I do not want this thread to turn into one of them.
While I understood the reasons the changes were implemented, the execution was less than satisfactory. The changes feel rather boring, making character creation more one dimensional. You might as well just tack a couple extra points onto point buy. I was brainstorming ways to improve upon this situation, allowing for a greater variety of characters but still maintaining an interesting character creation process. Currently, the background of a character doesn't have that much of a mechanical effect. I thought it would make perfect sense for background to determine ability score increases, since that is what a character has spent most of their pre adventuring life doing.
Adding ability scores to backgrounds does make choice of species less important. This system will make the traits of a species much more important, allowing jankier ones to perform better. Of course, this variant would be optional in a game, so if you want to stick with the original system, you can.
This is the previous version of the rules.
Acolyte: +2 to WIS, +1 to INT
Charlatan: +2 to DEX or CHA, and +1 to the ability score you did not pick for the first choice
Criminal: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to INT or CON
Entertainer: +2 to CHA, +1 to DEX
Folk Hero: +2 to STR or CON, +1 to CHA
Guild Artisan: +2 to INT, +1 to CHA
Hermit: +2 to WIS, +2 to INT, -1 CHA
Noble: +1 to CON, +1 to CHA, +1 to another ability score of your choice
Outlander: +2 to STR or DEX, +1 to WIS or CON
Sage: +2 to INT- gain expertise in Arcana or History
Sailor: +2 to CON, +1 STR
Soldier: +2 to STR, +1 to another ability score of your choice
Urchin: +2 to DEX, +1 to CHA
Total of each ability score:
STR: 9
DEX: 9
CON: 7
INT: 8
WIS: 7
CHA: 8
Here is the updated version:
After reading the comments and considering, I think I am going to go with the following system:
This will in give you in total +3 points to your character, which is in par with most species's (Is that the possessive of species?) increases.
First, here is a list of species and the scores you get to choose from. (I'm just doing PHB first, if people like this system I'll do the other books.)
Dwarf: CON. Hill dwarf: WIS, Mountain: STR
Elf: DEX, High: INT, Wood: WIS, Dark: CHA
Halfling: DEX, Lightfoot: CHA, Stout: CON
Human: Any score of your choice. Variant humans do not get this and instead get a feat. (This is very powerful, and I'm not sure if it is balanced.)
Dragonborn: STR or CHA
Gnome: INT, Forest: DEX, Rock: CON
Half-elf: CHA, or instead gain your choice of two skills. This is in addition to the two skills you already get.
Half-Orc: STR or CON
Tiefling: INT or CHA
Next, backgrounds.
Acolyte: INT or WIS
Charlatan: DEX or CHA
Criminal: STR or DEX
Entertainer: DEX or CHA
Folk Hero: STR or CON
Guild Artisan: DEX or CHA
Hermit: INT or WIS
Noble: CHA or CON
Outlander: WIS or CON
Sage: INT
Sailor: DEX or CON
Soldier: STR or DEX
Urchin: DEX or WIS
Finally, Class.
Artificer: INT
Barbarian: STR
Bard: CHA
Cleric: WIS
Druid: WIS
Fighter: STR or DEX
Monk: DEX or WIS
Paladin: STR or CHA
Ranger: DEX or WIS
Sorcerer: CHA
Warlock: CHA
Wizard: INT
All in all, not that complex. Here is an example character's bonuses:
Vialia, Lightfoot Halfling Sorcerer. Since Vialia is a Lightfoot halfling, she can choose between getting a bonus to DEX or CHA. She will choose CHA. Next, her background is Urchin, granting her a choice between DEX or WIS. She will choose DEX. Finally, she gets an additional +1 CHA from her class. Vialia's final bonuses are +2 CHA, +1 DEX.
Thanks for the feedback, it really helped. What do you think of this iteration?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
really like it!
maybe change folk hero to cha instead of wis?
EDIT: maybe you could have something like a +2 from background, and a plus 1 from race? also, its a cool concept, but it also means you would have to re make some of the races, as some are powerful because they have better ASIs. half elves and humans are examples. you would also have to nerf V human, as it is already op, and it has a weaker ASI than other races.
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A lot of this is good. There are a lot of other backgrounds in other books that you may need to do, but this is a good start.
I second making the background give you a total bonus of +2 (which have to be +1 to two different abilities) and your race or class give you the additional +1 (character's choice). That way, it's still fairly simple, while also being intuitive.
For example, you could be a Mountain Dwarf Artificer with the Guild Artisan background. First, you get a +1 bonus to Intelligence and Charisma from your background, and then you either choose to get an additional +1 to Intelligence from your class or +1 to Constitution or Strength from your race. This is what the classes would have for bonuses in this system if you chose it:
Or, instead of choosing the bonus from your class, you could choose one that is granted by your race or subrace.
That way, your race and training both matter for your ability scores, but you choose which one has more importance.
Just a recommendation. If you don't like it, just ignore this.
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Folk Hero makes more sense as CHA, so I will change it to be so. As for your second idea, I considered it. Here's a couple ways I could execute it:
Each of these has different benefits. The first is better for balance purposes, removing some of the ASI's of the more powerful species, the second for flavor, and the third for simplicity. I think I will change the backgrounds to only provide +2 to ability scores, but I'm not sure which of the three methods I should use for getting the third bonus.
Yeah, there a lot of backgrounds to do. Luckily, these don't take that much time to make, and you really only need the name of the background to make them. I addressed your second point in my above paragraph.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I like this a lot!
However, I do have one small nitpick: please remove the -1 to Cha from Hermit. I understand why you did this, but it still is really annoying. As of now, no Races (well, technically Volo's Kobold/Orc, but I think those are getting changed soon) give a negative ability score bonus. And for good reason. It reduces the effectiveness of certain builds, and is a general pain in the butt. I want to play my Hermit Sorcerer/Paladin/Warlock! All of those Classes could make some sense with the Hermit background, but currently they would be extremely difficult to build/play well. And, it makes other Backgrounds just straight up better than the Hermit. As such, please remove it.
Beyond that, though, its great! Really fun idea, works quite well.
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Hm. Reminds me of an article James Haeck wrote last year: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/563-reimagining-racial-ability-scores. One of the ideas he came up with is one I always find myself wishing the game had favored, and have sorta been massaging in the back of my head since. Namely, the idea that all three of the major decisions you get in character generation - Species, Background, Class - each contribute one point to your overall character.
Almost any given species or subspecies already has two ability affinities - Dexterity and Intelligence for high elves, as one example. Any given class usually has two abilities that could be considered its key abilities, or at least its most key abilities. And Joel has already started work on identifying two key abilities for each background. What I think could be a much better way of handling this is to solidify that idea, and allow a player to choose one of two ability affinities from each leg of their character's Triumverate of Stuff.
Playing a High Elf? That high elf can choose a +1 to either Dexterity or Intelligence. Decide to make it a Criminal? Choose between another +1 Dex or a +1 to Charisma. End up playing a Fighter? Choose between a +1 to Strength or Dexterity.
That way, each stage of character creation is important and impactful on your numbers without dominating your numbers, and choosing between two different affinities at each stage should ideally allow the player enough wiggle room to avoid a 'bad' allocation for their concept while still enforcing a degree of Thematic Correctness(C) on the process. You'd have to include a caveat that no ability score can be increased by more than +2, i.e. no picking Dexterity affinity three times, but that should be simple.
Frankly, there's a lot of ways one could make chargen in 5e better. But this would be a start. Hopefully something in there is helpful. Good luck, Joel.
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I like Pathfinder 2's take on it. Ancestry (Race) +1 to a specific stat, -1 to a specific stat, +1 to one of choice. Except humans who had +1 to stats of choice. Background: +1 to choice between 2 stats. Class: +1 to the key stat for the class.
Personally, I appreciate the spread of this. The +/- adds realism. The idea of a halfling being able to progress in strength the same as an Orc, something nearly 3 times the size and weight, is a distracting 'dafuq?!' in the brain. The fact that your background has no influence at all on your stats is also weird. Wouldn't a blacksmith banging metal all day be more likely to be stronger than somebody who spent all day sitting and reading? And so on.
Normally I'd say implementing this would have balancing issues - then Tasha's book appears to signal that WotC don't give a flying rat's arse about balance. So, go nuts I guess.
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The designers at WotC stated that races are balanced around how many ASIs they have, not where they are allocated (I definitely disagree with this, but that's what they said as an excuse for the Customizing your Origin System). If they think it's fine, and if another system is less balanced than this system would be, I think this would be "balanced" to the extent that is important.
Side Rant about why WotC was incorrect in this statement:
The most glaringly obvious reason that their statement is incorrect is the fact that not all Ability Scores and Races are created equal. Charisma and Dexterity are objectively way more useful in 5e than Intelligence or Strength. This can lead to some imbalance issues when using the Customizing your Origin System, such as allowing Satyrs to get a +2 to Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence as an Arcane Trickster Rogue with GFB/BB and Shadow Blade (if the DM still allows this combo or doesn't do errata), or having a Fallen Aasimar with a +2 to Dexterity and +1 to Charisma as a Conquest Paladin with Studded Leather Armor, a Shield, and Rapier. For the most part, it's not really an issue, but it can be a problem with certain exploits and combos. This would not be an issue if certain races didn't have super OP features (stares blankly at the Yuan-Ti Pureblood) and if all of the ability scores were equally useful and balanced.
If all the races were decently balanced, and if the ability scores were all reasonably within the same power level, then there would be next to no issues with the Customize your Origin feature that lets you swap out racial ASIs. However, neither of those statements are true, which can lead to problems with this system. Due to this fact, I think this proposed system would be better in the purpose of balancing your ASI allocation than the current Customize your Origin system. A huge benefit that a system like this one would have over the Customize your Origin system is the fact that Half-Elves, Kobolds, and Mountain Dwarves have the same ASIs as everyone else, like they should have in the first place.
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i think you should allow the possibility for soldiers to use dexterity
I am leader of the yep cult:https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/82135-yep-cult Pronouns are she/her
After reading the comments and considering, I think I am going to go with the following system:
This will in give you in total +3 points to your character, which is in par with most species's (Is that the possessive of species?) increases.
First, here is a list of species and the scores you get to choose from. (I'm just doing PHB first, if people like this system I'll do the other books.)
Dwarf: CON. Hill dwarf: WIS, Mountain: STR
Elf: DEX, High: INT, Wood: WIS, Dark: CHA
Halfling: DEX, Lightfoot: CHA, Stout: CON
Human: Any score of your choice. Variant humans do not get this and instead get a feat. (This is very powerful, and I'm not sure if it is balanced.)
Dragonborn: STR or CHA
Gnome: INT, Forest: DEX, Rock: CON
Half-elf: CHA, or instead gain your choice of two skills. This is in addition to the two skills you already get.
Half-Orc: STR or CON
Tiefling: INT or CHA
Next, backgrounds.
Acolyte: INT or WIS
Charlatan: DEX or CHA
Criminal: STR or DEX
Entertainer: DEX or CHA
Folk Hero: STR or CON
Guild Artisan: DEX or CHA
Hermit: INT or WIS
Noble: CHA or CON
Outlander: WIS or CON
Sage: INT
Sailor: DEX or CON
Soldier: STR or DEX
Urchin: DEX or WIS
Finally, Class.
Artificer: INT
Barbarian: STR
Bard: CHA
Cleric: WIS
Druid: WIS
Fighter: STR or DEX
Monk: DEX or WIS
Paladin: STR or CHA
Ranger: DEX or WIS
Sorcerer: CHA
Warlock: CHA
Wizard: INT
All in all, not that complex. Here is an example character's bonuses:
Vialia, Lightfoot Halfling Sorcerer. Since Vialia is a Lightfoot halfling, she can choose between getting a bonus to DEX or CHA. She will choose CHA. Next, her background is Urchin, granting her a choice between DEX or WIS. She will choose DEX. Finally, she gets an additional +1 CHA from her class. Vialia's final bonuses are +2 CHA, +1 DEX.
Thanks for the feedback, it really helped. What do you think of this iteration?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Okay! Finally got to read through the new version. It took me awhile to think it over, but I managed to convince myself that this is probably the best way to do it. It makes your species still determine a bit of your ability scores, while having the majority of it come from your training and occupation. That feels right to me.
This still makes Gnomes better at being Artificers or Wizards than Orcs, like our current system, as they can take the +2 bonus to INT from just their race and class, which would fee them up to taking any background of their choice for their other Ability Score boost. Orcs can be just as intelligent as a gnome, but it takes a bit more training and practicing for them to get to that state. The same thing applies to classes dependent on any other ability score. It just makes sense for an orc to be naturally stronger/healthier than a halfling, while they don't have to be if they choose to be trained a certain way. To me, this feels like a good balance of so called "realism" and freeing up a character from their race. If your Kobold wants to be as strong as a goliath, they can do so, but have to dedicate their choice of background and class to match what a goliath can get just from their race and background or class.
For specific notes on the races:
Dwarf: Looks good! For the other Dwarf subraces:
Elf: This is good. I'll just do the subraces you didn't do here to speed up the process:
Halfling: Good as well. Here are the subraces you didn't do:
Human: The extra feat is unbalanced. I would make it so they don't get a racial ASI and every human gets a feat.
Subraces:
Dragonborn: Also good. Also going to do the subraces:
Gnome: No problem here. Subraces:
Half-Elf: I would make this be "choose any ability score", and get rid of the free skill thing. Elves and Humans are both versatile enough that it makes sense for their children to have a little less versatility than humans, but more than elves.
Subraces (Replacing the "any" from the base race):
Half-Orc: Good. Subrace (replacing the STR and CON):
Tiefling: This is also good.
Subraces (replacing the race's CHA and INT):
If you want, I can do the other races (and I do mean all of them. I am willing if it would help you along). Just ask, and I'll do it.
Specific notes on the backgrounds:
I will only comment on the ones that I feel need changing. The ones I don't comment on should be fine.
Acolyte: I understand the INT, but I personally would prefer for it to be Charisma for paladins.
Criminal: Strength? That seems strange. I would do Wisdom. For the Spy, I would do DEX and CHA.
Entertainer: Looks good, but the Gladiator should get STR and DEX.
Folk Hero: I would do DEX and STR.
Guild Artisan: Replace Dexterity with Intelligence. We want Artificers to take this, remember?
Noble: Replace CON with INT. Nobles aren't known for being healthy, they're known for being conniving and well learned. Knights should get STR instead of INT.
Outlander: Yes WIS, no CON. Change CON to DEX.
Sage: Add WIS.
Sailor: Yes CON, but replace DEX with WIS. I'd make Pirates get DEX and CHA.
Urchin: I think I would change WIS to CHA.
Here are all the other backgrounds, just to help out. If you think anything needs changing, feel free to do so:
Anthropologist: CHA and INT
Archaeologist: INT and DEX
Athlete: DEX and STR
Azorius Functionary: WIS and CHA
Boros Legionnaire: STR and CHA
Celebrity Adventurer's Scion: Any
City Watch: STR and WIS
Clan Crafter: CON and INT
Cloistered Scholar: INT and WIS
Courtier: WIS and CHA
Dimir Operative: DEX and INT
Faceless: DEX and CHA
Faction Agent: Dependent on your faction (Order of the Gauntlets would get STR and WIS, Harpers would get INT and CHA, Emerald Enclave would get WIS and INT, Lord's Alliance gets INT and CON, Zhentarim gets DEX and CHA, etc for other factions).
Failed Merchant: CHA and INT
Far Traveler: Any
Fisher: WIS and STR
Gambler: WIS and CHA
Golgari Agent: CON and DEX
Grinner: INT and CHA
Gruul Anarch: STR and WIS
Haunted One: INT and CON
House Agent: INT and CHA
Inheritor: WIS and INT
Izzet Engineer: INT and DEX
Knight of the Order: CHA and INT
Marine: STR and WIS
Mercenary Veteran: STR and CHA
Orzhov Representative: CHA and WIS
Plaintiff: CHA and WIS
Rakdos Cultist: CHA and DEX
Rival Intern: INT and CHA
Selesnya Initiate: WIS and CHA
Shipwright: INT and WIS
Simic Scientist: INT and CON
Smuggler: CHA and STR
Urban Bounty Hunter: DEX and CHA
Urthgardt Tribe Member: STR and CON
Volstrucker Agent: INT and DEX
Waterdhavian Noble: INT and CHA
Thoughts on Class:
I would expand these a bit, with two options each, in order to make it so a Gnome Artificer who takes the Sage background can take a different ability score (I know race/subrace will already allow this, but this will allow them to have a bit more of a choice in the matter most often). I would also specify that this comes from the class you start out as, just for multiclassing purposes.
I really like this, I think it is a huge improvement of the previous system. Now I just need to figure out how to move more proficiencies to background from the races (weapon, armor, and tool proficiencies, etc).
I hope this helps, and I am more than happy to help further if you would like me to.
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I really like this think i'll use it
Wow Third. You did a huge amount of work, and I thank you for that. First, I agree with everything you said in the Race section. The backgrounds are a bit more complex, so I'll comment on those.
Acolyte could be CHA. Honestly, either makes sense. INT for the religious scholar, CHA for the zealot.
I agree with you, Criminal should be WIS/DEX
Yep, Gladiator is STR/DEX
DEX or STR makes sense on Folk Hero.
Guild Artisan should totally have INT
Noble changes are good
All the other changes are right as well. My only concern is that there aren't many backgrounds that grant CON.
Wow, you did a lot of backgrounds! Thank you. They all look right.
I agree with your changes to Class as well. I think I'll do the rest of the species today or tomorrow, no need for you to do them. I appreciate the offer though.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
This seems like an interesting concept. It does make a lot more sense to use this system instead of the Tasha's or the old one, but some things need further thought.
Classes seem fine to me, except that you forgot to include the Rogue which, IMO, would be DEX only. Why? Because the Rogue can be created to be heavily reliant on one of INT/CHA/WIS depending on the subclass and other choices but they always need that DEX. The only way to resolve this is to give all of the options but that's a bit too versatile, maybe.
V.Humans are the same as always, actually. The only problem is that now the normal Human is even less viable than before, gaining no racial features and only +3 points to ability scores. Personally, I think a normal human should stay as it is now. "BuT pLus EIgHt To abIliTy sCOres?!" The thing is, normal humans the way the game is now are only picked when you roll an odd number on all of your ability scores. I don't think I have ever seen anyone picking them on another occasion when V.Human was also an option unless they really just wanted to do it because they wanted to do it. Getting more ASI will be a major factor to consider now. This might be too strong after all, but both the way it is now and your current suggestion do the normal Human no good.
A Half-Elf Rogue will be even stronger than ever now, but I guess the Half-Elf was always an OP race anyway.
Varielky | Emma
Interesting. I'll break down class first, than move to race.
I can't believe I forgot a whole class. Rogue would definitely either be DEX/INT or DEX/CHA. If other classes are getting too choose between two scores, Rogue should as well.
Yes, Vhuman are the same as usual. I'm not sure about your suggestion for normal human, though. I really don't know how powerful it is, but the sticker shock of seing it get get 5 more asi's than normal exists. We all know normal human isn't broken though, in fact it is rather weak. So I am not sure about that.
I went with Third's changes to half-elf, it no longer gets that extra skill.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
No problem. It did take a long time to find every single background, but it was worth the work.
Yeah, there aren't a ton of backgrounds that grant CON, but quite a lot of the races/subraces do. That just makes them more valuable if you want to have more HP than the others. There are a few good options that grant CON (Sailor, Haunted One, Clan Crafter), and there are the few that allow you to choose any ability score. IMO, species determines your health more than background does, IMO, but there are options to increase it.
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What I meant is that normal human is indeed too weak and that if it only has +3 points of increase and no other increases/racial traits it is even more underpowered than the current system one, which is also underpowered.
Varielky | Emma
I personally would make the Variant Human be the base, and the normal human would ignore this system and just get its normal ASIs.
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Okay, here are the rest of the races. I'm going off the info from memory and D&D Beyond's races page, so correct me if I am wrong.
Leonin: CON or STR
Satyr: DEX or CHA
Aarakocra: DEX or WIS
Genasi CON, Air DEX, Earth STR, Fire INT, Water WIS
Goliath: STR or CON
Aasimar: CHA, Protector WIS, Scourge CON, Fallen STR
Bugbear: STR or DEX
Firbolg: STR or WIS
Goblin: DEX or CON
Hobgoblin: CON or INT
Kenku: DEX or WIS
Kobold: DEX or INT
Lizardfolk: CON or WIS
Orc: STR or CON
Tabaxi: DEX or CHA
Triton: STR, CON, or CHA
Yuan-ti Pureblood: CHA or INT
Tortle: STR, WIS
Changeling: Any score
Kalashtar: CHA or WIS
Shifter: CON or DEX?
Warforged: Any score
Gith: INT, Githyanki STR, Githzerai WIS
Centaur: STR or WIS
Loxodon: CON or WIS
Minotaur: STR or CON
Simic Hybrid: Any score
Vedalken: INT or WIS
Verdan: CHA or CON
Locathah: STR, DEX or CON
Grung: DEX or CON
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Looks good, but Locathah get STR, CON, and DEX, and Kobolds only get DEX. If you want to give them a second one, I would do INT or CHA.
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