Why do people keep saying "90% of spells are the same" or "It's only a few spells that have changed" or "Just a few dozen."
This does not appear to be true.
According to a reputable source, there are 106 spells that have been mechanically changed in some way. (From what I can see here)
On top of that, in order to effectively restore your access to these original versions of spells and their functionality in the character sheet, you would not only need to homebrew these spells manually, you would also need to homebrew the following features: (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread by WolfmanRIP)
Every subclass that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every item that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every warlock invocation that grants spells - these cannot be homebrewed and will not be usable with 2014 rules
Every class that grants extra spells (mainly through the Tasha's expanded spell lists) - as far as I know these also cannot be homebrewed so will be unusable.
Every monster that casts spells will need to be homebrewed
(Adding one of my own here) Every mundane and magical item that is being changed with the new ruleset (the numbers of which are as of yet unknown)
Which is, of course, to speak nothing about the actual monetary value that every single person who has purchased digital rulebooks from D&D Beyond is losing out on.
It's been argued ad nauseam but we say it louder for the people in the back.
The vast majority of those upset feel they have been wronged because when they purchased the digital copies of these books, they bought into an agreement, understanding, promise, whatever you wish to call it, that they would be able to utilize this content, AS STATED IN THE PRODUCT DETAILS TO THIS VERY DAY, within D&D Beyond's "Digital Toolset".
When this functionality is removed from the site, those of us who specifically purchased access to use this content in the Digital Toolset will effectively have the primary purpose of our purchases ripped away from us. This is what we find unacceptable. This is what we find objectionable.
We recognize that there are people who are happy to receive these updates for free. We understand that they see this as 'getting something instead of nothing'.
But WE DO NOT SEE IT THE SAME WAY. It is clear, if you take just a brief glance around the various D&D communities around the internet that a significant majority of discourse centers around the fact that we FIND LITTLE TO NO VALUE IN THE 2024 RULESET that we will be receiving because we DID NOT ASK FOR IT AND DO NOT WANT TO USE IT.
The decisions by whatever powers that be to take a Profit focused approach (Because it is very clear that this is a push to 'encourage' long-standing members of the D&D Beyond community to spend even more money buying into updated systems they do not want or need by cutting off their access to the Digital Toolset they have already paid to use), is predatory, insulting, and a betrayal of their userbase.
What would we like to be done about it?
I would hope the answer to that question would be obvious.
Must-Have: - Creating a duplicate database for the 2014 content that, upon character/campaign creation, can be selected, via a toggle, dropdown menu, etc, as the primary ruleset for said character/campaign which would allow new and existing 5e characters and campaigns to proceed unchanged. Would be Nice: - Develop a system to migrate existing 2014 characters/campaigns to the updated 2024 ruleset for those who wish to opt-in to the new rules in the future. Pipe-Dream: - Assurances that support for 2014 content within the Digital Toolset will be protected for as long as a significant portion (Can be defined later) of the userbase of D&D Beyond still utilizes the game-system.
Please Note:I, by no means, speak for everyone who is upset by these changes, but I have seen a significant amount of people making these statements all across the internet.
If I have missed something, or misrepresented something, it is not due to intentional malice, and is very likely due to my own incompetency.
Dndbeyond staff / Wotc / Hasbro. The above post outlines the complaints from the 1000+ of comments here.
Your community needs you to address this and take positive actions to remedy these issues.
The issue is people want to use the rules they paid for. not be forced to use the new rules they either don't like or aren't ready to use because of currently running games and campaigns that are balanced for the 2014 rules and such. All WotC and dndbeyond have to do is add an option when making character and campaigns to pick the version of the game you want to use. either 2014 or 2024. This update should be postponed until they can do that.
The reality is you have no idea what the percentage is, for the exact reason you stated, that unhappy people talk more about it. Your own argument makes your statement irrelevant.
The reality is you have no idea what the percentage is, for the exact reason you stated, that unhappy people talk more about it. Your own argument makes your statement irrelevant.
On the flip side, this doesn't have nearly as much exposure as it's about to in just over a week.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
This is a horrible unworkable implementation. We will no longer be able to continue playing our 5e campaign in D&D Beyond because our character sheets will no longer have access to those rules. I paid for these products with the understanding that they will still be supported on this site. If this is the implementation you pursue without soliciting or listening to any community feedback I guarantee a boycott and class action lawsuit are coming your way.
The reality is you have no idea what the percentage is, for the exact reason you stated, that unhappy people talk more about it. Your own argument makes your statement irrelevant.
this thread had more replies on it than any other thread since the thread about the ddb beta and in only like 2 days not only that if i go by the people i personally know most are oppose to this change so i have a pretty good idea that this is not a small group of disgruntled players and i can not fathom that the majority of people on this site that spent money on the 2014 books could be happy that any content of those books being taken away
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
I just tried the "homebrew solution". I homebrewed "Sleep" to "Sleep (2014)". OK that's fine.
HOWEVER, my Twilight Cleric, which always has "Sleep" prepared (due to the class feature), will forever use the built-in version and never my homebrew version.
Why do people keep saying "90% of spells are the same" or "It's only a few spells that have changed" or "Just a few dozen."
This does not appear to be true.
According to a reputable source, there are 106 spells that have been mechanically changed in some way. (From what I can see here)
On top of that, in order to effectively restore your access to these original versions of spells and their functionality in the character sheet, you would not only need to homebrew these spells manually, you would also need to homebrew the following features: (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread by WolfmanRIP)
Every subclass that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every item that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every warlock invocation that grants spells - these cannot be homebrewed and will not be usable with 2014 rules
Every class that grants extra spells (mainly through the Tasha's expanded spell lists) - as far as I know these also cannot be homebrewed so will be unusable.
Every monster that casts spells will need to be homebrewed
(Adding one of my own here) Every mundane and magical item that is being changed with the new ruleset (the numbers of which are as of yet unknown)
Which is, of course, to speak nothing about the actual monetary value that every single person who has purchased digital rulebooks from D&D Beyond is losing out on.
It's been argued ad nauseam but we say it louder for the people in the back.
The vast majority of those upset feel they have been wronged because when they purchased the digital copies of these books, they bought into an agreement, understanding, promise, whatever you wish to call it, that they would be able to utilize this content, AS STATED IN THE PRODUCT DETAILS TO THIS VERY DAY, within D&D Beyond's "Digital Toolset".
When this functionality is removed from the site, those of us who specifically purchased access to use this content in the Digital Toolset will effectively have the primary purpose of our purchases ripped away from us. This is what we find unacceptable. This is what we find objectionable.
We recognize that there are people who are happy to receive these updates for free. We understand that they see this as 'getting something instead of nothing'.
But WE DO NOT SEE IT THE SAME WAY. It is clear, if you take just a brief glance around the various D&D communities around the internet that a significant majority of discourse centers around the fact that we FIND LITTLE TO NO VALUE IN THE 2024 RULESET that we will be receiving because we DID NOT ASK FOR IT AND DO NOT WANT TO USE IT.
The decisions by whatever powers that be to take a Profit focused approach (Because it is very clear that this is a push to 'encourage' long-standing members of the D&D Beyond community to spend even more money buying into updated systems they do not want or need by cutting off their access to the Digital Toolset they have already paid to use), is predatory, insulting, and a betrayal of their userbase.
What would we like to be done about it?
I would hope the answer to that question would be obvious.
Must-Have: - Creating a duplicate database for the 2014 content that, upon character/campaign creation, can be selected, via a toggle, dropdown menu, etc, as the primary ruleset for said character/campaign which would allow new and existing 5e characters and campaigns to proceed unchanged. Would be Nice: - Develop a system to migrate existing 2014 characters/campaigns to the updated 2024 ruleset for those who wish to opt-in to the new rules in the future. Pipe-Dream: - Assurances that support for 2014 content within the Digital Toolset will be protected for as long as a significant portion (Can be defined later) of the userbase of D&D Beyond still utilizes the game-system.
Please Note:I, by no means, speak for everyone who is upset by these changes, but I have seen a significant amount of people making these statements all across the internet.
If I have missed something, or misrepresented something, it is not due to intentional malice, and is very likely due to my own incompetency.
This!!! All of the code currently exists on the site for all of the affected spells and magic items. There is absolutely no reason at all that a toggle system can't be implemented in the character builder for 2014 content. I'm playing in a long-standing campaign with multiple new players who are still trying to learn their spells, and forcing them to now learn completely different rules for the spells they've already spent time with may drive them away from the game. Our group is considering switching platforms entirely to mitigate this if we can't play with the 2014 rules we are used to. WOTC shouldn't have promised backwards compatibility if they couldn't keep that promise.
This is literally Y2K all over again. This is hilarious 😂
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
True, you may be looking at it from the perspective of using a 2014 class/subclass/species/etc. in a 2024 campaign, but the majority of folks responding to your comments have been pointing out how this will affect their 2014 campaigns, both those ongoing and any planned for the future. What you are saying may be true from your point of view, but it certainly isn't from theirs. The character sheets that have already been made will be altered in such a way that they don't necessarily apply to the 2014 ruleset, and will cause confusion for those trying to use them for their 2014 campaigns.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
This is literally Y2K all over again. This is hilarious 😂
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
I think people need to consider that thousands of people in this community have paid a lot of money to play 2014 characters under the 2014 rules and pulling that rug from undernearth them after assuring them it wouldn't bloody happen is valid reason to be extremely upset with these changes and trying to argue with them otherwise isn't helping and could be antagonistic. Especially considering the huge amount of money people have sunk into this site to play 2014 games and characters.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
One more Ugly thing Beyond did is - Big sale not so long ago. Imagine Doing a sale on 5e content and then after a bit telling all the people who bought the books on sale that your books are WORTHLESS! We got you! Ha Ha! You thought you were buying stuff for cheap and will be able to use! Well guess what! You`re not! Ha! Now so long sucker! Your money is now ours!
This is inaccurate. The 2014 stuff isn't going away. Some character sheet functionality is being updated to 2024 but all the 2014 stuff is still fully useable outside of DDB AND most of it is still useable in DDB. It's compatible with the 2024 update.
Toolset content is explicitly part of what was purchased during the sale. That is now being removed. It is an outright lie to say that "The 2014 stuff isn't going away".
No, it's an outright lie to say it is going away. Even using your definition, only part of it is going away, which is exactly what I said. You have no standing to call me a liar.
If you prefer, saying "The 2014 stuff isn't going away" is a totally misleading statement to imply that you can continue using the 2014 rules, to the point that anyone reading it would feel lied to.
In actuality most of the "2014" stuff is being removed or rendered unusable, and it will be impossible to play under 2014 rules.
Again, that's completely inaccurate.
If I make a new character on 9/3, I'll be able to pick a 2014 class or a 2024 class, so classes didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 subclass or 2024 subclass so subclasses didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick 2014 feats or 2024 feats so feats didn't go anywhere.... I'll be able to pick a 2014 species or a 2024 species so those didn't go anywhere either. All that content that was purchased is COMPLETELY accessible.
Furthermore, if I bought adventures, they're still accessible, the monsters from those adventures are still accessible, the player options from those adventures are still accessible.
The ONLY things that are not accessible according to the changelog are a subset of things that are being updated to the 2024 versions, namely spell descriptions and rule definitions.
So tell me again how I'm a liar when I say that you have access to nearly everything you purchased during the sale.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
I agree that accuracy is important, it isonly (afaik) invocations that grant spells that are affected, but I also think it's important to note that those spell-granting invocations are no longer usable under 2014 rules, whether the text is correct or not.
Of course if you're playing a 2024 or mixed 2014/2024 game then the legacy invocations will work fine, albeit with the new spells.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Dndbeyond staff / Wotc / Hasbro. The above post outlines the complaints from the 1000+ of comments here.
Your community needs you to address this and take positive actions to remedy these issues.
The issue is people want to use the rules they paid for. not be forced to use the new rules they either don't like or aren't ready to use because of currently running games and campaigns that are balanced for the 2014 rules and such. All WotC and dndbeyond have to do is add an option when making character and campaigns to pick the version of the game you want to use. either 2014 or 2024. This update should be postponed until they can do that.
Just a Dragonborn looking for games to play.
Oh well Dicecloud and Gsheets to the rescue!
The reality is you have no idea what the percentage is, for the exact reason you stated, that unhappy people talk more about it. Your own argument makes your statement irrelevant.
On the flip side, this doesn't have nearly as much exposure as it's about to in just over a week.
True, you'll be able to choose the 2014 options, and even use 2014 spells if you homebrewed them before 9/3 when the changes are being instituted, but there are features IN THAT MATERIAL that will be affected by the addition of the 2024 material that CAN'T be homebrewed. Rule changes, such as Hide and Sneak Attack, just to use those as examples, will now appear on the character sheets with the 2024 text. Some of the subclasses will also be adversely affected, making them essentially unusable as 2014 subclasses on the character sheets. By doing so it alters the character sheets from a purely 2014 content character to an amalgamation of 2014/2024-something many working with 2014 do not want. Trying to use a 2014-based Warlock character sheet will become impossible since there is no way to use the 2014 invocations anymore. They will only have the 2024 invocations, and those can't be homebrewed.
A half-truth may not be lying, but it isn't totally correct either.
This is a horrible unworkable implementation. We will no longer be able to continue playing our 5e campaign in D&D Beyond because our character sheets will no longer have access to those rules. I paid for these products with the understanding that they will still be supported on this site. If this is the implementation you pursue without soliciting or listening to any community feedback I guarantee a boycott and class action lawsuit are coming your way.
this thread had more replies on it than any other thread since the thread about the ddb beta and in only like 2 days not only that if i go by the people i personally know most are oppose to this change so i have a pretty good idea that this is not a small group of disgruntled players and i can not fathom that the majority of people on this site that spent money on the 2014 books could be happy that any content of those books being taken away
Where have we seen that Sneak Attack and the Invocations themselves won't be usable in their current state? Both are class features of 2014 and shouldn't be going anywhere. The Invocation issue has always been specifically that any spells they grant will point to the 2024 versions of the spells.
Similarly, Battle Master Fighter should be fine.
I just tried the "homebrew solution". I homebrewed "Sleep" to "Sleep (2014)". OK that's fine.
HOWEVER, my Twilight Cleric, which always has "Sleep" prepared (due to the class feature), will forever use the built-in version and never my homebrew version.
This!!! All of the code currently exists on the site for all of the affected spells and magic items. There is absolutely no reason at all that a toggle system can't be implemented in the character builder for 2014 content. I'm playing in a long-standing campaign with multiple new players who are still trying to learn their spells, and forcing them to now learn completely different rules for the spells they've already spent time with may drive them away from the game. Our group is considering switching platforms entirely to mitigate this if we can't play with the 2014 rules we are used to. WOTC shouldn't have promised backwards compatibility if they couldn't keep that promise.
If you understood what the Y2k problem was, you'd realize that it actually was a problem that is only hilarious in hindsight because people did a ton of work to fix it before it happened.
The point about invocations is that we can't use the 2014 versions with the 2014 spells. If you want to run a game under 2014 rules you cannot use any invocations that grant spells. It's the same with things like the expanded spell lists from TGE, I don't know if they'd count as part of the class or a seperate optional rule, but either way there is no way to homebrew them to point at the 2014 rules.
I'm not aware of issues with sneak attack, as that should come from the legacy rogue class rules, but it's possible another problems been discovered since I last looked. It's things like the hide rule (that they also mentioned) where there is no way to have the 2014 rules referenced on the character sheet.
My point was that it appears there were some misconceptions in their understanding of the changes. Yes, the spells are altered as I pointed out, but the text of the invocations (and anything not tied to spells) will be unaffected.
Obviously, no contest on the spells and rule tooltips.
The embargo on the PHB was only recently lifted as well. People have only just started to dive into the differences in all the spells and how the new rules affect them. So there has been very little time to adjust, and given that the spells are going to change overnight **in the primary tool ddb users use ** upon the PHB's release, WotC has imposed disarray upon weeks' worth of games as people fumble around -- particularly the casual players who don't follow d&d news -- in addition to making the char sheet much less useful for the 2014 crowd.
[REDACTED]
PLEASE reconsider. Not everyone is on board with the 2024 changes.
so the exact opposite of what they are doing rn?
One of the folks in my local group counted up the number of spells changed in some way, shape, or form, and came up with 191 spells that are being altered in the 2024 PHB. As far as I know, we still don't know the fate of the spells that didn't make it into the 2024 PHB. Are they being wiped from the database, or remaining as Spells that 2014 characters already made can still use? I know Booming Blade and Green-Fire Blade are not in the 2024 spell list, or at least I haven't seen them mentioned.
I agree that accuracy is important, it is only (afaik) invocations that grant spells that are affected, but I also think it's important to note that those spell-granting invocations are no longer usable under 2014 rules, whether the text is correct or not.
Of course if you're playing a 2024 or mixed 2014/2024 game then the legacy invocations will work fine, albeit with the new spells.