So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
Yes, that companion not only has no CR, its abilities are normally Ranger-dependent. How are you going to calculate hit points and melee accuracy (and save DCs)? Regardless, that companion is proficient in all saves and all ability checks (naturally, including initiative), and Wild Shape will mean you gain those proficiencies. Even if your GM assumes a Ranger of level X and Wisdom modifier Y for calculating its abilities, universal save+ability proficiency on a Wild Shape stick is absurdly gross, even for level 18.
So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
Yes, that companion not only has no CR, its abilities are normally Ranger-dependent. How are you going to calculate hit points and melee accuracy (and save DCs)? Regardless, that companion is proficient in all saves and all ability checks (naturally, including initiative), and Wild Shape will mean you gain those proficiencies. Even if your GM assumes a Ranger of level X and Wisdom modifier Y for calculating its abilities, universal save+ability proficiency on a Wild Shape stick is absurdly gross, even for level 18.
Actually, the three Beasts do have CR in their stat block, being equivalent to the proficiency bonus of the Ranger (which maxes out at +6 anyway). So it would be trivial to use Druid's level and PB and just use the set stat blocks, which - let's be honest - they'd probably do now if they could redo Wildshape.
Where are you getting the impression that the Primal Companions have proficiency in all saves and ability checks? It certainly doesn't say so in the optional class feature nor the stat blocks. If anything, the stat blocks are pretty tame for CR6 creatures.
Anyway, if the DM allows it, I don't see an issue. Beast of the Sky is abusable, but not against what you'll be fighting at level 18.
Made a quick sample stat block using my characters mental stats (and psy resistance.) Save/skill wise the thought is it inherits the druids, which is represented on the saves. Ignore the challenge rating, it wouldn't let me manually set the proficiency bonus.
So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
Yes, that companion not only has no CR, its abilities are normally Ranger-dependent. How are you going to calculate hit points and melee accuracy (and save DCs)? Regardless, that companion is proficient in all saves and all ability checks (naturally, including initiative), and Wild Shape will mean you gain those proficiencies. Even if your GM assumes a Ranger of level X and Wisdom modifier Y for calculating its abilities, universal save+ability proficiency on a Wild Shape stick is absurdly gross, even for level 18.
Actually, the three Beasts do have CR in their stat block, being equivalent to the proficiency bonus of the Ranger (which maxes out at +6 anyway). So it would be trivial to use Druid's level and PB and just use the set stat blocks, which - let's be honest - they'd probably do now if they could redo Wildshape.
Where are you getting the impression that the Primal Companions have proficiency in all saves and ability checks? It certainly doesn't say so in the optional class feature nor the stat blocks. If anything, the stat blocks are pretty tame for CR6 creatures.
Anyway, if the DM allows it, I don't see an issue. Beast of the Sky is abusable, but not against what you'll be fighting at level 18.
All three stat blocks say CR -, explicitly. They have no CR. Here's that line: Challenge -
Here's the line all three have making them proficient in everything: Primal Bond. You can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the beast makes. In fact, I've just realized this is more powerful than universal proficiency on you, since it's a distinct ability, meaning it stacks with actual proficiency, due to the wording on Wild Shape. You'd become double-proficient (Expertise) in your own actual proficiencies. Expertise on saves is no joke.
All three stat blocks say CR -, explicitly. They have no CR. Here's that line: Challenge -
Here's the line all three have making them proficient in everything: Primal Bond. You can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the beast makes. In fact, I've just realized this is more powerful than universal proficiency on you, since it's a distinct ability, meaning it stacks with actual proficiency, due to the wording on Wild Shape. You'd become double-proficient (Expertise) in your own actual proficiencies. Expertise on saves is no joke.
Thanks, I missed Primal Bond in the stat blocks. In that case, it's sensible to do as OP has done in his stat sheet, and only use the Druid's own save and ability proficiencies. RAI, this beast has no "bond" to anything.
Challenge Rating (on the Tasha's source from D&D Beyond that I'm reading) for each reads: "Challenge — Proficiency Bonus (PB) equals your bonus".
So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
Yes, that companion not only has no CR, its abilities are normally Ranger-dependent. How are you going to calculate hit points and melee accuracy (and save DCs)? Regardless, that companion is proficient in all saves and all ability checks (naturally, including initiative), and Wild Shape will mean you gain those proficiencies. Even if your GM assumes a Ranger of level X and Wisdom modifier Y for calculating its abilities, universal save+ability proficiency on a Wild Shape stick is absurdly gross, even for level 18.
Actually, the three Beasts do have CR in their stat block, being equivalent to the proficiency bonus of the Ranger (which maxes out at +6 anyway). So it would be trivial to use Druid's level and PB and just use the set stat blocks, which - let's be honest - they'd probably do now if they could redo Wildshape.
Where are you getting the impression that the Primal Companions have proficiency in all saves and ability checks? It certainly doesn't say so in the optional class feature nor the stat blocks. If anything, the stat blocks are pretty tame for CR6 creatures.
Anyway, if the DM allows it, I don't see an issue. Beast of the Sky is abusable, but not against what you'll be fighting at level 18.
All three stat blocks say CR -, explicitly. They have no CR. Here's that line: Challenge -
Here's the line all three have making them proficient in everything: Primal Bond. You can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the beast makes. In fact, I've just realized this is more powerful than universal proficiency on you, since it's a distinct ability, meaning it stacks with actual proficiency, due to the wording on Wild Shape. You'd become double-proficient (Expertise) in your own actual proficiencies. Expertise on saves is no joke.
Nope. PHB page 173: "Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add the bonus only once when you make the save." Expertise is a specific rule that would override this one.
Even then, I would argue that Wildshaping into one of these beasts means that it has no "Primal Bond" ... to whom is it bonded? If a DM is already making a ruling that these beasts are eligible for Wildshape (and modifying their statblock as necessary, such as HP), then nothing stops them from changing this aspect either.
If you take out Primal Bond and just say every instance of "Ranger" can be replaced by "Druid" in the stat block, I don't see an issue with allowing this.
Have you considered using the new summon beast statblock assuming an upcast of 6th or 8th level spell (probably 6th level is closest to CR 6)?
What you are basically talking about is skinning a statblock, right? What is wrong with simply re-skinning the statblock of the mammoth?
How does your statblock compare to the mammoth? I would always compare back to that mammoth to see if what you're suggesting is strong, weak, or way out of balance. For example, you have ~4/5 of the HP but a way larger AC, your creature is probably significantly tankier due to the AC. On the other hand, your statblock doesn't have any way to make more than one attack at 1d8+8, whereas the mammoth does 4d8+7 with its attack (unless it is lucky with its charge feature). The summon beast spell does a ton more damage assuming upcast at 8th level (4 attacks at 1d8+12 each).
I admittedly am coming at it now so lower level scaling won't matter much, but I like the idea of it being a catch all shape that scales smoothly with level, which summon beast doesn't really do as well. Admittedly summon beast scaling probably matches better with the jump>plateau>jump scaling of normal wild shapes, but I like the incremental gain better. Summon beast also looks to be pretty glass cannon compared to both the idea here and the normal beasts which isn't really my cup of tea but I know some people would find a plus. I do think it compares favorably to the mammoth defensively but as you noted, the mammoth deals significantly more damage. As a more level "for all levels" approach it feels like a reasonably durable option (dodges better, less HP, mixed bag on physical saves, probably above average overall) in exchange for heavier damage or CC options. Prone on a charge isn't nothing but several wild shapes have restraining grapples if control is what you are going for.
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So I've been playing a moon druid for a while now and we are about to hit 18, which opens up CR 6 beasts. All 1 of them. To add some variety I ran the idea past my DM of using the ranger animal companion from Tasha's as a stat block. DM has already said sounds good but does anyone see any major balance issues arising?
Yes, that companion not only has no CR, its abilities are normally Ranger-dependent. How are you going to calculate hit points and melee accuracy (and save DCs)? Regardless, that companion is proficient in all saves and all ability checks (naturally, including initiative), and Wild Shape will mean you gain those proficiencies. Even if your GM assumes a Ranger of level X and Wisdom modifier Y for calculating its abilities, universal save+ability proficiency on a Wild Shape stick is absurdly gross, even for level 18.
Actually, the three Beasts do have CR in their stat block, being equivalent to the proficiency bonus of the Ranger (which maxes out at +6 anyway). So it would be trivial to use Druid's level and PB and just use the set stat blocks, which - let's be honest - they'd probably do now if they could redo Wildshape.
Where are you getting the impression that the Primal Companions have proficiency in all saves and ability checks? It certainly doesn't say so in the optional class feature nor the stat blocks. If anything, the stat blocks are pretty tame for CR6 creatures.
Anyway, if the DM allows it, I don't see an issue. Beast of the Sky is abusable, but not against what you'll be fighting at level 18.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Made a quick sample stat block using my characters mental stats (and psy resistance.) Save/skill wise the thought is it inherits the druids, which is represented on the saves. Ignore the challenge rating, it wouldn't let me manually set the proficiency bonus.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/1540347-primal-shape-land
All three stat blocks say CR -, explicitly. They have no CR. Here's that line: Challenge -
Here's the line all three have making them proficient in everything: Primal Bond. You can add your proficiency bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the beast makes. In fact, I've just realized this is more powerful than universal proficiency on you, since it's a distinct ability, meaning it stacks with actual proficiency, due to the wording on Wild Shape. You'd become double-proficient (Expertise) in your own actual proficiencies. Expertise on saves is no joke.
Thanks, I missed Primal Bond in the stat blocks. In that case, it's sensible to do as OP has done in his stat sheet, and only use the Druid's own save and ability proficiencies. RAI, this beast has no "bond" to anything.
Challenge Rating (on the Tasha's source from D&D Beyond that I'm reading) for each reads: "Challenge — Proficiency Bonus (PB) equals your bonus".
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Nope. PHB page 173: "Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add the bonus only once when you make the save." Expertise is a specific rule that would override this one.
Even then, I would argue that Wildshaping into one of these beasts means that it has no "Primal Bond" ... to whom is it bonded? If a DM is already making a ruling that these beasts are eligible for Wildshape (and modifying their statblock as necessary, such as HP), then nothing stops them from changing this aspect either.
If you take out Primal Bond and just say every instance of "Ranger" can be replaced by "Druid" in the stat block, I don't see an issue with allowing this.
Have you considered using the new summon beast statblock assuming an upcast of 6th or 8th level spell (probably 6th level is closest to CR 6)?
What you are basically talking about is skinning a statblock, right? What is wrong with simply re-skinning the statblock of the mammoth?
How does your statblock compare to the mammoth? I would always compare back to that mammoth to see if what you're suggesting is strong, weak, or way out of balance. For example, you have ~4/5 of the HP but a way larger AC, your creature is probably significantly tankier due to the AC. On the other hand, your statblock doesn't have any way to make more than one attack at 1d8+8, whereas the mammoth does 4d8+7 with its attack (unless it is lucky with its charge feature). The summon beast spell does a ton more damage assuming upcast at 8th level (4 attacks at 1d8+12 each).
I admittedly am coming at it now so lower level scaling won't matter much, but I like the idea of it being a catch all shape that scales smoothly with level, which summon beast doesn't really do as well. Admittedly summon beast scaling probably matches better with the jump>plateau>jump scaling of normal wild shapes, but I like the incremental gain better. Summon beast also looks to be pretty glass cannon compared to both the idea here and the normal beasts which isn't really my cup of tea but I know some people would find a plus. I do think it compares favorably to the mammoth defensively but as you noted, the mammoth deals significantly more damage. As a more level "for all levels" approach it feels like a reasonably durable option (dodges better, less HP, mixed bag on physical saves, probably above average overall) in exchange for heavier damage or CC options. Prone on a charge isn't nothing but several wild shapes have restraining grapples if control is what you are going for.