As I'm preparing to run Witchlight, it occurs to me that the milestone leveling - or more specifically the suggested milestones - kinda doesn't work.
For reference, they are:
* Entering a Hag’s Realm
* Encountering a Hag
* Freeing Zybilna
I think the first and last are fine, but the middle one is a little problematic as (by my reading at least), the PCs will typically go straight from meeting a Hag to travelling to - and hence entering - the next realm. I.e. gaining the milestones could be too "lumpy", with players alternating getting two in a row then nothing for a while.
I thought about changing it to "recovering all players lost things in a realm", but that could happen as soon as you meet each hag (so could end up the same).
So far the best I've come up with is "on entering each hags lair", i.e. Downfall, Loomlurch, and Motherhorn... anyone have any other suggestions, or do you think they are ok as written?
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
How about, instead of entering a Hag's Realm, you go with Encountering a Hag and Finding a Guide (eg. Squirt the Oilcan)
How about, instead of entering a Hag's Realm, you go with Encountering a Hag and Finding a Guide (eg. Squirt the Oilcan)
Not a bad suggestion... the one difficulty is that it means the first level could take a while... perhaps could make it "get a guide to show you the way", and include Mr Witch / Mr Light in there as well (as guides to the Feywild)?
Does mean an extra milestone/level... but that probably isn't such a big deal given the adventure.
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
Beats me. 🤷♂️ I don’t use 5e adventures and I do use XP.
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
Milestone levelling is precisely that. It is levelling when the DM feels it is appropriate to do so, such as achieving multiple goals, reaching a special location, etc. The DM sets what a milestone would be and when that milestone is achieved, the DM rewards the level-up. You may want to see Chapter 8: Running The Game - Experience Points, in the DMG.
The WBWL book provides examples of milestones. You can level up at those milestones or decide on different ones if you prefer.
The book is less combat heavy compared to usual adventures, so going longer without level-ups and getting 2 at a time are not major concerns since you will not have to be encounter-balancing very much. The challenges presented will have already taken expected level (based on suggested milestones) into account. So, even if the levelling is a bit more chaotic (which would be fitting) compared to normal, it isn't going to do much.
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You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
Milestone levelling is precisely that. It is levelling when the DM feels it is appropriate to do so, such as achieving multiple goals, reaching a special location, etc. The DM sets what a milestone would be and when that milestone is achieved, the DM rewards the level-up. You may want to see Chapter 8: Running The Game - Experience Points, in the DMG.
The WBWL book provides examples of milestones. You can level up at those milestones or decide on different ones if you prefer.
The book is less combat heavy compared to usual adventures, so going longer without level-ups and getting 2 at a time are not major concerns since you will not have to be encounter-balancing very much. The challenges presented will have already taken expected level (based on suggested milestones) into account. So, even if the levelling is a bit more chaotic (which would be fitting) compared to normal, it isn't going to do much.
I'm familiar with chapter 8 of the DMG, thanks. I'm also very familiar with WBW.
If you have any suggestions for how I might change the suggested milestones, rather than your feelings on why they aren't a problem, I'd love to hear them.
Unless someone has a good idea, I think I'll go with some combination of "entering a realm", "finding a guide" and "encountering a hag".
That should give me more than enough *potential* milestones (nine), and when the players reach each one, I'll decide at that point whether sufficient encounters/time has past (min 3 encounters) since the last one.
I figure it'll most likely look something like this:
Those milestones are okay, but I might change the middle one to something like
”Confronting one of the Hags” or “Discovering enough information about one of the Hags to Confront them” if the party is light on levels.
DnD consists (at its most basic) equal parts of discovery, investigation, conflict, and resolution. The difference between discovery and investigation is that discovery is passive, or accidental and investigation is directed and pursued. Conflict is easy to figure out and the Resolution can be the lead in to the next Discovery that leads you into the next phase of the adventure.
This being said, if the players have progressed from Discovery (hey, there’s a dead guy here!) to Investigation (maybe that guy with the knife did it?) Conflict (you’ll never take me alive coppers!) to the Resolution (dead bad guy, adulation of the masses, the reward is also the treasure map in his pocket). So if they pass one of those milestones, then progress them in levels :)
Dont the hags asign quests to the PCs? So there should be a decent gap between meeting a hag and going to the next realm yeah?
They sorta do... but the majority of these "quests" don't take place in the hags realm, or involve handing over something the players have already found/done.
So it seems to me that most of the time the next step after encountering a hag will be to travel to the next realm. I.e. this is exactly the problem with the milestones as written which needs fixing. :)
Those milestones are okay, but I might change the middle one to something like
”Confronting one of the Hags” or “Discovering enough information about one of the Hags to Confront them” if the party is light on levels.
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here?
Are you suggesting I replace "arrive in Thither" or "meet Squirt" with "encounter Bavlorna" (or maybe "encounter Skabatha")?
My goal here is not so much structural with what the milestones consist of, so much as to smooth out the progression and spacing between milestones. Between each milestone the players will already have had a number of encounters with a mix of discovery/investigation/conflict... and each involving a resolution of sorts.
I.e. It's about picking suitable encounters which are far enough apart as milestones so that advancement feels smoother and more natural, not making the milestone encounters themselves be a mix of different types.
Those milestones are okay, but I might change the middle one to something like
”Confronting one of the Hags” or “Discovering enough information about one of the Hags to Confront them” if the party is light on levels.
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here?
Are you suggesting I replace "arrive in Thither" or "meet Squirt" with "encounter Bavlorna" (or maybe "encounter Skabatha")?
My goal here is not so much structural with what the milestones consist of, so much as to smooth out the progression and spacing between milestones. Between each milestone the players will already have had a number of encounters with a mix of discovery/investigation/conflict... and each involving a resolution of sorts.
I.e. It's about picking suitable encounters which are far enough apart as milestones so that advancement feels smoother and more natural, not making the milestone encounters themselves be a mix of different types.
I was reading your first post on this, so I wasn't referencing those particular goal posts.
Sounds like you've got some great ideas on what you want to do for your milestone leveling, have fun!
I have the exact problem with the milestone system as written in the book. And I came up with a very similar solution.
I think I will reward my players a level when they reach the hag's domain. For example:
lvl 2 when they cross from the carnival to Hither
lvl 3 when they reach Downfall
Lvl 4 when they arrive to Thither
lvl 5 when they enter Loomlurch
lvl 6 when they arrive to Yon
lvl 7 when they get to Motherhorn
lvl 8 when they enter the last chapter
I understand for some of you this is not important at all, but for me it's important to have a smooth transition between levels, so new players have enough time to try their new lvl without getting overwhelmed with new stuff too fast
So, I’ve been playing around with this too. I’ve purchased expansions for WBW from DM’s guild to give my players more to do. It expands on concepts already in the book as well as adds more adventures for them to partake in.
I’ve looked into the exp route in Chapter 8 of DMG, but since most of the encounters are non-combat it gets a little fuzzy to figure out for a new DM like me. If anyone has suggestions on how to figure that, I would prefer it.
As it stands right now I’m looking at a milestone structure like this:
lvl 2 when entering Hither
lvl 3 after completing half of the encounters
lvl 4 when entering Downfall
lvl 5 when entering Thither
lvl 6 after completing half of the encounters
And so on like that.
I know this would put my characters around level 11 when they reach the palace, but it would make it just a little easier for my players to defeat the jabberwok if they decided to go into a head on fight. If I think it’s too easy I can just bluff a bit to make it more difficult. If anyone has any comments or suggestions on this I would appreciate it.
As I'm preparing to run Witchlight, it occurs to me that the milestone leveling - or more specifically the suggested milestones - kinda doesn't work.
For reference, they are:
* Entering a Hag’s Realm
* Encountering a Hag
* Freeing Zybilna
I think the first and last are fine, but the middle one is a little problematic as (by my reading at least), the PCs will typically go straight from meeting a Hag to travelling to - and hence entering - the next realm. I.e. gaining the milestones could be too "lumpy", with players alternating getting two in a row then nothing for a while.
I thought about changing it to "recovering all players lost things in a realm", but that could happen as soon as you meet each hag (so could end up the same).
So far the best I've come up with is "on entering each hags lair", i.e. Downfall, Loomlurch, and Motherhorn... anyone have any other suggestions, or do you think they are ok as written?
You don’t necessarily need to use actual milestones for milestone leveling. Basically, whatever you feel they have done enough to level up, level them up.
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Sure, I understand the concept. What you describe isn't milestone leveling though... it's leveling by DM fiat/whim.
Let's say I do want to use some actual fixed milestones... what would you suggest that is better than what the book offers?
How about, instead of entering a Hag's Realm, you go with Encountering a Hag and Finding a Guide (eg. Squirt the Oilcan)
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Not a bad suggestion... the one difficulty is that it means the first level could take a while... perhaps could make it "get a guide to show you the way", and include Mr Witch / Mr Light in there as well (as guides to the Feywild)?
Does mean an extra milestone/level... but that probably isn't such a big deal given the adventure.
Beats me. 🤷♂️ I don’t use 5e adventures and I do use XP.
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Milestone levelling is precisely that. It is levelling when the DM feels it is appropriate to do so, such as achieving multiple goals, reaching a special location, etc. The DM sets what a milestone would be and when that milestone is achieved, the DM rewards the level-up. You may want to see Chapter 8: Running The Game - Experience Points, in the DMG.
The WBWL book provides examples of milestones. You can level up at those milestones or decide on different ones if you prefer.
The book is less combat heavy compared to usual adventures, so going longer without level-ups and getting 2 at a time are not major concerns since you will not have to be encounter-balancing very much. The challenges presented will have already taken expected level (based on suggested milestones) into account. So, even if the levelling is a bit more chaotic (which would be fitting) compared to normal, it isn't going to do much.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I'm familiar with chapter 8 of the DMG, thanks. I'm also very familiar with WBW.
If you have any suggestions for how I might change the suggested milestones, rather than your feelings on why they aren't a problem, I'd love to hear them.
Unless someone has a good idea, I think I'll go with some combination of "entering a realm", "finding a guide" and "encountering a hag".
That should give me more than enough *potential* milestones (nine), and when the players reach each one, I'll decide at that point whether sufficient encounters/time has past (min 3 encounters) since the last one.
I figure it'll most likely look something like this:
Arrive in Hither
Meet Clapperclaw
Arrive in Thither
Meet Squirt
Arrive in Yon
Encounter Endelyn
Dont the hags asign quests to the PCs? So there should be a decent gap between meeting a hag and going to the next realm yeah?
Those milestones are okay, but I might change the middle one to something like
”Confronting one of the Hags” or “Discovering enough information about one of the Hags to Confront them” if the party is light on levels.
DnD consists (at its most basic) equal parts of discovery, investigation, conflict, and resolution. The difference between discovery and investigation is that discovery is passive, or accidental and investigation is directed and pursued. Conflict is easy to figure out and the Resolution can be the lead in to the next Discovery that leads you into the next phase of the adventure.
This being said, if the players have progressed from Discovery (hey, there’s a dead guy here!) to Investigation (maybe that guy with the knife did it?) Conflict (you’ll never take me alive coppers!) to the Resolution (dead bad guy, adulation of the masses, the reward is also the treasure map in his pocket). So if they pass one of those milestones, then progress them in levels :)
They sorta do... but the majority of these "quests" don't take place in the hags realm, or involve handing over something the players have already found/done.
So it seems to me that most of the time the next step after encountering a hag will be to travel to the next realm. I.e. this is exactly the problem with the milestones as written which needs fixing. :)
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here?
Are you suggesting I replace "arrive in Thither" or "meet Squirt" with "encounter Bavlorna" (or maybe "encounter Skabatha")?
My goal here is not so much structural with what the milestones consist of, so much as to smooth out the progression and spacing between milestones. Between each milestone the players will already have had a number of encounters with a mix of discovery/investigation/conflict... and each involving a resolution of sorts.
I.e. It's about picking suitable encounters which are far enough apart as milestones so that advancement feels smoother and more natural, not making the milestone encounters themselves be a mix of different types.
I was reading your first post on this, so I wasn't referencing those particular goal posts.
Sounds like you've got some great ideas on what you want to do for your milestone leveling, have fun!
I have the exact problem with the milestone system as written in the book. And I came up with a very similar solution.
I think I will reward my players a level when they reach the hag's domain. For example:
lvl 2 when they cross from the carnival to Hither
lvl 3 when they reach Downfall
Lvl 4 when they arrive to Thither
lvl 5 when they enter Loomlurch
lvl 6 when they arrive to Yon
lvl 7 when they get to Motherhorn
lvl 8 when they enter the last chapter
I understand for some of you this is not important at all, but for me it's important to have a smooth transition between levels, so new players have enough time to try their new lvl without getting overwhelmed with new stuff too fast
So, I’ve been playing around with this too. I’ve purchased expansions for WBW from DM’s guild to give my players more to do. It expands on concepts already in the book as well as adds more adventures for them to partake in.
I’ve looked into the exp route in Chapter 8 of DMG, but since most of the encounters are non-combat it gets a little fuzzy to figure out for a new DM like me. If anyone has suggestions on how to figure that, I would prefer it.
As it stands right now I’m looking at a milestone structure like this:
lvl 2 when entering Hither
lvl 3 after completing half of the encounters
lvl 4 when entering Downfall
lvl 5 when entering Thither
lvl 6 after completing half of the encounters
And so on like that.
I know this would put my characters around level 11 when they reach the palace, but it would make it just a little easier for my players to defeat the jabberwok if they decided to go into a head on fight. If I think it’s too easy I can just bluff a bit to make it more difficult. If anyone has any comments or suggestions on this I would appreciate it.
If you are willing to tweak every encounter the book (and the expansions) has all the way to the Jabberwock, then it's possible. Just a ton of work.
On the other hand you could just tweak the Jabberwock fight instead and save yourself having to beef up the whole campaign
Was searching for the same reason as everyone else. Had been playing with something like this in my head and I think this sounds good.
This might seem like a really stupid question, but what level does the campaign start at?
It starts at lvl 1. The entire first chapter (the actual Witchlight Carnival) is played with 1st lvl characters.