So, I turned up to a local game and got thrown into a group where I am at a SEVERE level disadvantage. I'm trying to play it cool, and so far the DM has been merciful, but that doesn't change the fact that I'M LEVEL 2 IN THE MIDDLE OF FORT KNUCKLEBONE!!!
Anyway, I don't want to metagame too hard, but can anybody give me any tips to stay alive? So far my best idea is to keep ceremony prepared and make as much holy water as I can before each long rest. And I have a feeling that, in combat, I'll mostly be flanking to give the rogue sneak attack and praying that my high AC keeps me safe.
Any advice is appreciated. I'm too young to die. I haven't even taken my oath yet.
Since you didn't tell about what class are you playing nore the STATS you have, I only can suggest you should do some rat-infest mini-quest on every town/village/castle you find.
If it's not enough worthed, at least you can earn a trophy.......... or a medal, or even better,....... 1 level ... yayyyyy !!!!!
If this is AL then you could play some adventures between hard cover sessions to try to catch up some levels.
Chapter 3 is supposed to be for level 7-10. As a level 2 you will probably instantly die to many of the possible AoE effects and if you ever get targeted by a typical monster with three attacks you will probably also die. In addition, since everyone will be leveling at the same rate, you won't be catching up unless you play content outside the hardcover.
You are either a paladin or a cleric, in either case, you would be better off casting bless on your team mates since it doesn't scale with level and staying as far from melee as is possible. Using the help action to assist the rogue is a road to immediate death unless the DM decides to play the game giving your character plot armor since it will only take one round for most of the opponents to wipe you out.
Anyway, my suggestion is to play some other content between sessions to level up a bit, otherwise it will go badly for you at some point. Until then, stay as far away from the bad guys as possible. Also, consider running around as a medic getting folks up with a heal spell or administering a healing potion if a team mate goes down.
"Playing Content Between Sessions Characters can play other adventures (including other multiple-session adventures) between sessions. At the start of each new adventure, the character’s hit points, hit dice, and other consumable resources are restored to full; however, the character will begin play suffering the effects of any diseases, toxins, curses, or other maladies that weren’t removed at the end of the adventure. It is for this reason, that characters participating in one (or more) multiple-session adventures should take careful note of their current resources at the end of each session. Players taking their characters from game to game in this way are permitted to advance in level and earn rewards between sessions of a multiple-session adventure but must exercise caution or else they may accidentally level-out of their original game."
You could use the situation to your advantage. If you do not look like a big threat compared to the others in your party it is likely that you can stay back and use ranged attacks / support as the enemys focus their attacks on the real threats to them (=not you).
If you manage that yor biggest threat is hopefully being a casual victim of a AoE effect on some other in the party, so be careful how you position yourelf.
More info on the character, I'm a dragonborn paladin, scores are 16,10,14,10,12,14. I have defense fighting style and a shield, so I'm sitting at 19 ac. I realized I'm not gonna be able to get the material components to load everyone up on holy water, so I'm probably gonna throw bless on the rogue to free up the cleric's concentration.
I'm hoping that if I can display some creativiy and make good tactical decisions, the dm might throw me an extra level. I think I made a good impression with that fight against the chain devil last time. I knew I couldn't hurt it, so I tried making a strength check to free the rogue, who was right behind me in initiative, so she wouldn't be attacking at disadvantage and could get sneak attack.
The DM can reward you a level though no more that 1/session. In addition, since you are tier 1, you will at minimum level up once every 4 hours of hardcover play (which will be twice as fast as the tier 2 folks at least until you hit tier 2).
ALFAQ9.1
"Hardcover Adventures. You can award a level whenever you feel it appropriate—to a maximum of one per session. Some adventures provide cues for these sorts of awards, some don’t. However, if you don’t award them a level, your players’ characters earn a level after four hours of play (eight hours at tier 2). In either case, the characters progress in next level at the end of the session."
Bless affects up to three targets at first level so you should be helping more than just the rogue (including yourself would also be wise since you probably need all the help you can get :) ).
I'm aware of bless affecting 3 targets. I figure I'm gonna hit the rogue to maximize our damage per round. A 5d6 sneak attack is great, but you have to land the hit. I'm not really sure who else in the party should get it. I have no idea what the wizard's spell book is like. Depending on what he has access to, it could turn him into an absolute powerhouse or be totally wasted. I could also give it to the fighter. If he action surges, getting an extra d4 to hit on 4 attacks could put someone in a really bad way. Then again, the bard and cleric might appreciate the bonus to concentration checks.
Okay, in case anyone comes across this and wonders, "What ever happened to that guy?" I have got stories. Major spoiler alert if you aren't familiar with Descent into Avernus.
Last night was one of the greatest sessions I've ever played, and the week before was nothing to complain about either. When I showed up a couple weeks ago with a level 1 paladin, I figured I'd sit down with 4-5 low level characters like me on a bog standard dungeon crawl. When the only table that had room for me was 8 tier 2 characters beginning chapter 3 of DiA, I nearly shit myself. I figured I was going to die VERY quickly.
When I first posted, we had successfully escaped Elturel and made it to Fort Knucklebone. My lack of stealth did earn us an encounter with a chain devil, but after taking a facefull of acid breath from yours truly, a couple pot shots from other party members, and a heavy sneak attack, the fighter action surged and basically machine gunned it to death with his bow.
We actually made it through all the stuff at the Fort with no incident. There was a little DM cheese that saved me at one point, but nothing major. So, we set off on our war machines trying to track down Lulu's memories. It didn't take long at all for us to see a demon grinder full of werecreatures coming for us. First of all, the assassin and warlock on the devil's ride just noped out on us and veered off. So we're outgunned going in, until our fighter, God bless him, rolls a nat 20 with the harpoon against the driver. The gnome drops a fireball on it and messes everyone up a bit, and as we pass them, I use my breath weapon again. The driver auto-fails his save because there is a giant harpoon pinning him to the seat, and he is at 2 hp. Then they board us.
2 wererats fail the check to jump across and fall victim to our wheel scythes, but we still have several clinging to us, and there's still a gunner shooting us from the demon grinder. Our OTHER rogue, pulls a 180 to try and shake them. He succeds in shaking 2 wererats and 1 underleveled paladin. Fortunately, they were both very badly hurt, and I have decent ac. No cheese this time, he legit rolled and didn't hit me. Seeing how things have turned, the demon grinder is now fleeing. This is where our absent party members come back. They pull the devil's ride alongside, and the warlock Nightcrawlers his way in (misty step), kills the driver, and the demon grinder is ours. That brings us to Harumon's hill, last night's session.
I should note, we have not rested since getting our new wheels, so we are down on resources, and we're down a player. Our fighter is absent, and nobody is NPCing his character. The stirges go down in a flurry of magic missiles, and thunderwaves, and a couple people are focusing fire on the nightmare as Harumon approaches. There isn't much I can do, but I've concocted an insane scheme. I'm positioned as the tip of the spear, and I ready an action. Harumon gets right in my face, and I make a ballsy move.
I cast command on the nightmare. The command? "Buck"
The table erupts. And it is a stare down between me and the DM. "What's your dc?" 12. He JUST made it. Over the next 3 rounds, he knocks out 4 party members, including me. The cleric is casting healing word every round, just to get people on their feet. Once I'm back, I use my last spell slot to cast bless on the rogues and the pal-lock. Between sneak attacks and divine smite, that's the only way we can win. So I focus on concentration and just dodge every round. We have him on the ropes, he heals, and it takes another couple rounds to drop him. FINALLY, we get to long rest, but we're not done yet.
The DM told me before hand that I need a magic item if I want to survive, and I'm going to be offered a deal. It's nothing extreme. Bel wants to humiliate Zariel. He gives me +1 full plate in exchange for a favor. The favor? Piss off Tiamat so it looks like Zariel is too inept to maintain order in Avernus. I figure that won't come back to bite me for a couple sessions, so I accept. Oh how wrong I was.
We set off the next morning, and the bard gets lost. The DM is absolutely giddy. He lays the map of Avernus out and says, "Roll on the map." The warlock rolls, and where does the die land? Arkhan's tower. So that's where we end up. We're considering just booking it as fast as we can, when the cleric uses thaumaturgy to get the dragon's attention. Krull comes out to parlay, accompanied by about 2 dozen undead guards, and somehow, the cleric pissed him off. Roll initiative. Krull opens by casting a spell. DM tells the driver of the demon grinder to make a save. She succeeds, and he says, "Okay, you AREN'T banished..." We had to explain to this very young player how close she was to being erased from the game. Our gunners are focusing on Krull and rolling crap. The dragon unleashes frost breath over the demon grinder. Fortunately, I'm on the OTHER war machine because I noticed the cleric, bard, and pal-lock piling into that one and suggested having someone who could heal on both vehicles. If I had been there and failed that save, it would have been just enough damage to insta-kill me.
We annihilate all of the undead, and the warlock polymorphs the dragon into a bug. We have Krull surrounded, and the pal-lock says, "Are we done?" Nat 20 on intimidate. The tortle turns and walks back inside the fortress trying not to let us see the trickle running down his leg. That's basically where we ended for the night. I'll update periodically if anyone cares to hear more misadventures in Avernus.
Nice story! It is cool to see that you are having fun!
Just a few comments though ... officially, for AL, the maximum number of players is 7. Also, again for AL, you can't play folks who can't make it as an NPC which is likely why no one was playing the missing fighter.
I hope the +1 full plate helps you out, an extra 1 or 2 AC is useful, but an AC of 21 (22 if you have defensive) is decent but will still get hit against more challenging monsters and unless you've leveled up a bit you still won't have the hit points so be careful :). You might have been better off with a cloak of displacement if you were able to choose :)
Polymorphing the dragon at the end is cool but it must have taken quite a bit of effort to whittle down his legendary saving throws to get it to stick. The dragon is a CR13 and could probably wipe the party on their own ... though white dragons aren't that smart, so you might beat him with good tactics. It also has a frightful presence though the DC is only 14 so it isn't that bad. The breath weapon is nasty at 12d8 cold damage and a 19DC con save ... it also recharges on a 5-6. Either way, it was lucky that your group managed to polymorph it.
Well, my time in Avernus has come to an ignoble end. The DM graciously allowed me to sit in on an already too large group for several weeks, but tonight, he told me that he just couldn't do it anymore. I was butchered by Arkhan the Cruel, just to send a message to the rest of the party.
At least I can proudly say that I made a serious contribution on my last night. We were in the Bone Brambles, facing 3 banshees and 2 undead treants. I know the adventure calls for 2 and 1, but we actually had the full group together for a change. I put Bane on the banshees, and they couldn't land their touch attacks. Then when I saw the warlock getting pummeled into oblivion, I locked down his attacker with my channel divinity: Abjure Enemy. Frightened with a speed of 0 for 1 minute. Things were going great until one of the banshees screamed, and everyone in range failed the saving throw. It got pretty tense with only the wizard, assassin, and pal-lock up, but once the cleric got back on his feet, a quick mass healing word tipped things back in our favor.
I'm tempted to go back, not to play, but just to hang out and see how the party finishes the story. I never thought I could feel so connected to such a strange assortment of people in only a few short weeks. If anyone reading this has reservations about starting Adventurers' League, don't hesitate. It has been the most fun I could imagine.
Well, killing a character to send a message to the rest of the party is a tad...overboard by the DM unless it was unavoidable. It sounds like you're having fun with it, thought.
I say keep it up! Adventurers league needs more players. You can bring your character back from the dead, though it'll cost you a magic item at this level.
Thanks for the update. It is always great to see folks having fun.
Keep in mind that in AL, you can purchase raise dead (all the way up to true resurrection) as a downtime activity. If you don't have enough gold you can always give up a permanent magic item. In other words, your character isn't usually dead unless you want them to be.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the maximum number of players in an AL legal game is seven. From the sounds of it, your group was at least nine based on earlier posts. With that many players, it isn't an AL legal game.
Edit: It was pointed out that the season 9 ALDMG mentions that modules are intended for 3 to 7 players but goes on to say that larger or smaller groups are not recommended and suboptimal but it doesn't mention them not being AL legal.
What level was your character at the end? If you played several sessions and started at level 2 then you should have been somewhere in the middle of tier 2 at the end.
Anyway, I think it is great that you really enjoyed it. Adventurer's League or even just D&D at your local game store can be loads of fun and I recommend trying it especially for those where the timing and commitment of traditional groups doesn't work well.
So, I turned up to a local game and got thrown into a group where I am at a SEVERE level disadvantage. I'm trying to play it cool, and so far the DM has been merciful, but that doesn't change the fact that I'M LEVEL 2 IN THE MIDDLE OF FORT KNUCKLEBONE!!!
Anyway, I don't want to metagame too hard, but can anybody give me any tips to stay alive? So far my best idea is to keep ceremony prepared and make as much holy water as I can before each long rest. And I have a feeling that, in combat, I'll mostly be flanking to give the rogue sneak attack and praying that my high AC keeps me safe.
Any advice is appreciated. I'm too young to die. I haven't even taken my oath yet.
Take the dodge action every turn? hahaha
Since you didn't tell about what class are you playing nore the STATS you have, I only can suggest you should do some rat-infest mini-quest on every town/village/castle you find.
If it's not enough worthed, at least you can earn a trophy.......... or a medal, or even better,....... 1 level ... yayyyyy !!!!!
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
If this is AL then you could play some adventures between hard cover sessions to try to catch up some levels.
Chapter 3 is supposed to be for level 7-10. As a level 2 you will probably instantly die to many of the possible AoE effects and if you ever get targeted by a typical monster with three attacks you will probably also die. In addition, since everyone will be leveling at the same rate, you won't be catching up unless you play content outside the hardcover.
You are either a paladin or a cleric, in either case, you would be better off casting bless on your team mates since it doesn't scale with level and staying as far from melee as is possible. Using the help action to assist the rogue is a road to immediate death unless the DM decides to play the game giving your character plot armor since it will only take one round for most of the opponents to wipe you out.
Anyway, my suggestion is to play some other content between sessions to level up a bit, otherwise it will go badly for you at some point. Until then, stay as far away from the bad guys as possible. Also, consider running around as a medic getting folks up with a heal spell or administering a healing potion if a team mate goes down.
"Playing Content Between Sessions
Characters can play other adventures (including other multiple-session adventures) between sessions. At the start of each new adventure, the character’s hit points, hit dice, and other consumable resources are restored to full; however, the character will begin play suffering the effects of any diseases, toxins, curses, or other maladies that weren’t removed at the end of the adventure.
It is for this reason, that characters participating in one (or more) multiple-session adventures should take careful note of their current resources at the end of each session.
Players taking their characters from game to game in this way are permitted to advance in level and earn rewards between sessions of a multiple-session adventure but must exercise caution or else they may accidentally level-out of their original game."
You could also DM some AL sessions and apply your DM credit to this character.
You could use the situation to your advantage. If you do not look like a big threat compared to the others in your party it is likely that you can stay back and use ranged attacks / support as the enemys focus their attacks on the real threats to them (=not you).
If you manage that yor biggest threat is hopefully being a casual victim of a AoE effect on some other in the party, so be careful how you position yourelf.
Okay, thanks for the support.
More info on the character, I'm a dragonborn paladin, scores are 16,10,14,10,12,14. I have defense fighting style and a shield, so I'm sitting at 19 ac. I realized I'm not gonna be able to get the material components to load everyone up on holy water, so I'm probably gonna throw bless on the rogue to free up the cleric's concentration.
I'm hoping that if I can display some creativiy and make good tactical decisions, the dm might throw me an extra level. I think I made a good impression with that fight against the chain devil last time. I knew I couldn't hurt it, so I tried making a strength check to free the rogue, who was right behind me in initiative, so she wouldn't be attacking at disadvantage and could get sneak attack.
The DM can reward you a level though no more that 1/session. In addition, since you are tier 1, you will at minimum level up once every 4 hours of hardcover play (which will be twice as fast as the tier 2 folks at least until you hit tier 2).
ALFAQ9.1
"Hardcover Adventures. You can award a level whenever you feel it appropriate—to a maximum of one per session. Some adventures provide cues for these sorts of awards, some don’t. However, if you don’t award them a level, your players’ characters earn a level after four hours of play (eight hours at tier 2). In either case, the characters progress in next level at the end of the session."
Bless affects up to three targets at first level so you should be helping more than just the rogue (including yourself would also be wise since you probably need all the help you can get :) ).
I'm aware of bless affecting 3 targets. I figure I'm gonna hit the rogue to maximize our damage per round. A 5d6 sneak attack is great, but you have to land the hit. I'm not really sure who else in the party should get it. I have no idea what the wizard's spell book is like. Depending on what he has access to, it could turn him into an absolute powerhouse or be totally wasted. I could also give it to the fighter. If he action surges, getting an extra d4 to hit on 4 attacks could put someone in a really bad way. Then again, the bard and cleric might appreciate the bonus to concentration checks.
Okay, in case anyone comes across this and wonders, "What ever happened to that guy?" I have got stories. Major spoiler alert if you aren't familiar with Descent into Avernus.
Last night was one of the greatest sessions I've ever played, and the week before was nothing to complain about either. When I showed up a couple weeks ago with a level 1 paladin, I figured I'd sit down with 4-5 low level characters like me on a bog standard dungeon crawl. When the only table that had room for me was 8 tier 2 characters beginning chapter 3 of DiA, I nearly shit myself. I figured I was going to die VERY quickly.
When I first posted, we had successfully escaped Elturel and made it to Fort Knucklebone. My lack of stealth did earn us an encounter with a chain devil, but after taking a facefull of acid breath from yours truly, a couple pot shots from other party members, and a heavy sneak attack, the fighter action surged and basically machine gunned it to death with his bow.
We actually made it through all the stuff at the Fort with no incident. There was a little DM cheese that saved me at one point, but nothing major. So, we set off on our war machines trying to track down Lulu's memories. It didn't take long at all for us to see a demon grinder full of werecreatures coming for us. First of all, the assassin and warlock on the devil's ride just noped out on us and veered off. So we're outgunned going in, until our fighter, God bless him, rolls a nat 20 with the harpoon against the driver. The gnome drops a fireball on it and messes everyone up a bit, and as we pass them, I use my breath weapon again. The driver auto-fails his save because there is a giant harpoon pinning him to the seat, and he is at 2 hp. Then they board us.
2 wererats fail the check to jump across and fall victim to our wheel scythes, but we still have several clinging to us, and there's still a gunner shooting us from the demon grinder. Our OTHER rogue, pulls a 180 to try and shake them. He succeds in shaking 2 wererats and 1 underleveled paladin. Fortunately, they were both very badly hurt, and I have decent ac. No cheese this time, he legit rolled and didn't hit me. Seeing how things have turned, the demon grinder is now fleeing. This is where our absent party members come back. They pull the devil's ride alongside, and the warlock Nightcrawlers his way in (misty step), kills the driver, and the demon grinder is ours. That brings us to Harumon's hill, last night's session.
I should note, we have not rested since getting our new wheels, so we are down on resources, and we're down a player. Our fighter is absent, and nobody is NPCing his character. The stirges go down in a flurry of magic missiles, and thunderwaves, and a couple people are focusing fire on the nightmare as Harumon approaches. There isn't much I can do, but I've concocted an insane scheme. I'm positioned as the tip of the spear, and I ready an action. Harumon gets right in my face, and I make a ballsy move.
I cast command on the nightmare. The command? "Buck"
The table erupts. And it is a stare down between me and the DM. "What's your dc?" 12. He JUST made it. Over the next 3 rounds, he knocks out 4 party members, including me. The cleric is casting healing word every round, just to get people on their feet. Once I'm back, I use my last spell slot to cast bless on the rogues and the pal-lock. Between sneak attacks and divine smite, that's the only way we can win. So I focus on concentration and just dodge every round. We have him on the ropes, he heals, and it takes another couple rounds to drop him. FINALLY, we get to long rest, but we're not done yet.
The DM told me before hand that I need a magic item if I want to survive, and I'm going to be offered a deal. It's nothing extreme. Bel wants to humiliate Zariel. He gives me +1 full plate in exchange for a favor. The favor? Piss off Tiamat so it looks like Zariel is too inept to maintain order in Avernus. I figure that won't come back to bite me for a couple sessions, so I accept. Oh how wrong I was.
We set off the next morning, and the bard gets lost. The DM is absolutely giddy. He lays the map of Avernus out and says, "Roll on the map." The warlock rolls, and where does the die land? Arkhan's tower. So that's where we end up. We're considering just booking it as fast as we can, when the cleric uses thaumaturgy to get the dragon's attention. Krull comes out to parlay, accompanied by about 2 dozen undead guards, and somehow, the cleric pissed him off. Roll initiative. Krull opens by casting a spell. DM tells the driver of the demon grinder to make a save. She succeeds, and he says, "Okay, you AREN'T banished..." We had to explain to this very young player how close she was to being erased from the game. Our gunners are focusing on Krull and rolling crap. The dragon unleashes frost breath over the demon grinder. Fortunately, I'm on the OTHER war machine because I noticed the cleric, bard, and pal-lock piling into that one and suggested having someone who could heal on both vehicles. If I had been there and failed that save, it would have been just enough damage to insta-kill me.
We annihilate all of the undead, and the warlock polymorphs the dragon into a bug. We have Krull surrounded, and the pal-lock says, "Are we done?" Nat 20 on intimidate. The tortle turns and walks back inside the fortress trying not to let us see the trickle running down his leg. That's basically where we ended for the night. I'll update periodically if anyone cares to hear more misadventures in Avernus.
Nice, well done! What level are you now?
Nice story! It is cool to see that you are having fun!
Just a few comments though ... officially, for AL, the maximum number of players is 7. Also, again for AL, you can't play folks who can't make it as an NPC which is likely why no one was playing the missing fighter.
I hope the +1 full plate helps you out, an extra 1 or 2 AC is useful, but an AC of 21 (22 if you have defensive) is decent but will still get hit against more challenging monsters and unless you've leveled up a bit you still won't have the hit points so be careful :). You might have been better off with a cloak of displacement if you were able to choose :)
Polymorphing the dragon at the end is cool but it must have taken quite a bit of effort to whittle down his legendary saving throws to get it to stick. The dragon is a CR13 and could probably wipe the party on their own ... though white dragons aren't that smart, so you might beat him with good tactics. It also has a frightful presence though the DC is only 14 so it isn't that bad. The breath weapon is nasty at 12d8 cold damage and a 19DC con save ... it also recharges on a 5-6. Either way, it was lucky that your group managed to polymorph it.
Well, my time in Avernus has come to an ignoble end. The DM graciously allowed me to sit in on an already too large group for several weeks, but tonight, he told me that he just couldn't do it anymore. I was butchered by Arkhan the Cruel, just to send a message to the rest of the party.
At least I can proudly say that I made a serious contribution on my last night. We were in the Bone Brambles, facing 3 banshees and 2 undead treants. I know the adventure calls for 2 and 1, but we actually had the full group together for a change. I put Bane on the banshees, and they couldn't land their touch attacks. Then when I saw the warlock getting pummeled into oblivion, I locked down his attacker with my channel divinity: Abjure Enemy. Frightened with a speed of 0 for 1 minute. Things were going great until one of the banshees screamed, and everyone in range failed the saving throw. It got pretty tense with only the wizard, assassin, and pal-lock up, but once the cleric got back on his feet, a quick mass healing word tipped things back in our favor.
I'm tempted to go back, not to play, but just to hang out and see how the party finishes the story. I never thought I could feel so connected to such a strange assortment of people in only a few short weeks. If anyone reading this has reservations about starting Adventurers' League, don't hesitate. It has been the most fun I could imagine.
Well, killing a character to send a message to the rest of the party is a tad...overboard by the DM unless it was unavoidable. It sounds like you're having fun with it, thought.
I say keep it up! Adventurers league needs more players. You can bring your character back from the dead, though it'll cost you a magic item at this level.
thanks lich for the updates,, has been fun to listen to your story
Thanks for the update. It is always great to see folks having fun.
Keep in mind that in AL, you can purchase raise dead (all the way up to true resurrection) as a downtime activity. If you don't have enough gold you can always give up a permanent magic item. In other words, your character isn't usually dead unless you want them to be.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the maximum number of players in an AL legal game is seven. From the sounds of it, your group was at least nine based on earlier posts. With that many players, it isn't an AL legal game.Edit: It was pointed out that the season 9 ALDMG mentions that modules are intended for 3 to 7 players but goes on to say that larger or smaller groups are not recommended and suboptimal but it doesn't mention them not being AL legal.
What level was your character at the end? If you played several sessions and started at level 2 then you should have been somewhere in the middle of tier 2 at the end.
Anyway, I think it is great that you really enjoyed it. Adventurer's League or even just D&D at your local game store can be loads of fun and I recommend trying it especially for those where the timing and commitment of traditional groups doesn't work well.