I've actually decided to run my group through, just so we can say we did it (D&D isn't even our main game, only myself and one other have played any version before). Looking at the level progression of the other adventures in Yawning Portal, I decided 15th level characters would be good. There's only three players, so one will play two characters, bringing them up to a solid four-person party. I was really curious about if I was scaling the PCs to the dungeon correctly, the advice in this thread has been very helpful for that. Thank you.
Forgive me if this sounds argumentative, that's not my intent.
How, exactly, is this watered down? Everything I'd read indicated the 5e version was a faithful recreation of the original, all difficulty intact (and Acerack, with the new Lair and Legendary actions, is harder than ever before). Is that not accurate? If not, why not?
What I've read (and I admit, I haven't perused the entire module yet) gives the impression that it mostly doesn't matter how powerful the players are (except for the boss fight at the end, which is still optional); if they trigger traps, Something Bad will happen. If they pick the wrong entrance, that's it, adventure over and party dead then and there. Have I misread or misunderstood something?
I haven't run an adventure quite like this before, most games I run are focused more on role-play, social interaction, mystery, and combat. Traps, riddles, and mazes aren't things I typically run, which is part of the appeal to try this one just once. Thanks in advance for advice.
I'll start with "save or die" and continue if needed.
If your first reaction is "That's not fair" or "I can't do that to my players" or something similar, then you don't understand how difficult the Tomb was supposed to be. It wasn't designed to challenge players, it was designed to kill them.
Currently, the poison in the tomb is save or take 20-ish damage. That's a minor inconvenience, not a lethal threat.
Again, I'll continue if needed.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I ran this myself and wasn't sure same as you because they just say 'high level' in the Yawning Portal book. I assumed like level 13-15 and after running it, I think level 14 is a good hard level. Its high enough that they can succeed but low enough that they can still get the crap kicked out of them by the Tomb and Acererak and the monsters in it. Long rest only gets to happen once every 24 hours, and your "No Resting in the Tomb" idea is solid my dude. I say put flavor on it and give them horrible nightmares if they sleep in the tomb.
My second piece of having run this. If your players are making new characters for this, don't dole out magic items at all. I did a little bit and regret it. Maybe give them a magic weapon or Scrolls of Magic Weapon, but I think having too many magic things makes it too much easier.
I'll start with "save or die" and continue if needed.
If your first reaction is "That's not fair" or "I can't do that to my players" or something similar, then you don't understand how difficult the Tomb was supposed to be. It wasn't designed to challenge players, it was designed to kill them.
Currently, the poison in the tomb is save or take 20-ish damage. That's a minor inconvenience, not a lethal threat.
Again, I'll continue if needed.
Well, the main reason for doing it is just to say we did, in all its unrelentingly lethal glory. The players know exactly what they're getting into (well, not exactly, I'm trying to keep most of the traps a surprise. . . but they know it's supposed to be a meat grinder, and they're prepared to take losses and perhaps not make it through. They're planning backup characters, even). So "fair" isn't really a consideration. We're doing it to have fun, in a comedic sociopathy kind of way.
I did finish reading the module today, and while yeah, there's a lot of minor annoyances, there's also a lot of just brutal stuff, and lot of those minor annoyances come in quick enough succession that someone could die, yeah not to their first poisoned needle, but to their sixth or seventh after some spears and pits and other general unpleasantness.
And a lot of the "you die" stuff is exactly that. . . X happens, you die. No save, no avoidance, nice knowing you, save me a seat I'll be along shortly.
Long rest - you heal 1 hp, unless you are in a comfortable resting place like an Inn in which case you get 2. If the DM is feeling generous, he gives you your CON bonus.
Spell choice - nobody except sorcerers have spell slots. Every caster must declare which spells they have ready and must long rest to change their choices. Not prepared spells, useable spells. If you need Shatter and you didn't pick it, tough tooties.
Pits - Perception check, easy to avoid and again, weak poison. Original - if you're not specifically probing for them, you fall in. Save or die.
Sliding wall - on initiative 1 the block moves into place. When you tell players to roll for initiative, they will easily bypass this trap. Original - DM counts to 10 mentally, when 10 is reached, the block is in place - messed up, but true as written. The only (as written) way out is via Disintegrate, Shape Stone, or Wish.
Demon Mouth - 4d10 damage. Easily healed. Original Demon Mouth - touch it and die.
100 foot pit - non specific, but would guess 10d6 damage. Original 10d10
Swarm of snakes. Original - an actual swarm of snakes (12), save or die poison.
4 armed Gargoyle - Original - 4 armed gargoyle multiattack 6 if two claws hit additional 7 damage. Not too threatening, but much more dangerous than multiattack 3.
Hall of Bolts 50% chance to trigger, DC 20 save. Original - somebody gets shot, no save, no armor.
Giant Skeleton - OK, this is a respectable monster but a pushoever against a lvl 12-14 party. Original - Always goes first. ALL edged weapons do 1 damage, blunt weapons do normal damage, totally immune to magic.
Blue altar - Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Original - Lightning Bolt for 40, Fireball for 60.
False Crypt Zombie - greater zombie - weak. Original - Absorb 12 levels of spells, partial levels spoil spells, AC 24.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Long Rest and Spell Choice: Not sure what you're getting at here.
Pits: The average damage is between 22 and 33, depending on successful save. Not lethal, certainly, but not exactly a scratch, either. It's one of many traps that seem, to me, less about killing the characters outright and more about wearing them down and consuming their resources, so things just get progressively deadlier.
Sliding Wall: Hmm, now that you mention it, I do see how the players could escape that fairly easily if they hightail it right away. But if they spend a round dithering, they're pretty much toast.
Demon Mouth: I assume you mean the one with the sphere of annihilation in it? Oh, yeah, I was assuming anything that went into it was destroyed, so if a player stuck their arm in they'd lose an arm. Ah, yes, now that I look at the sphere, I see what you mean. Though, again, 4d10 damage isn't exactly nothing, but players missing arms or getting weapons destroyed poking at it would be a lot more fun (for the sadistic DM, anyway).
100 foot pit: There isn't one of those. There's a 30 foot pit in the first hall, then much later a ten foot pit with a shooting spear trap. 30 foot fall is 3d6, ten foot is 1d6. I suppose I could deepen the pits for more damage, but again, they strike me as being an inconvenience and drain on resources (exactly how many pitons did you bring? hmm, noted) than something inherently fatal.
Bolts From Above: In the original, do you mean every round someone was automatically struck for damage?
Acid Vat: Funny you should mention that. Two of the characters are Dragonborn, one a Bronze (because she likes lightning) the other Green (because he asked if Poison Resistance would be a good thing in the Tomb, and I shrugged and said "it wouldn't be bad.") So I don't know if anyone will be prepared to deal with acid.
Knock-Out Corridor: So, as I understood it, the point of the knock-out gas was to keep the characters helpless so they could mowed over by the Raiders of the Lost Ark boulder, correct?
Cursed Gem: Again, I can see the point. However, initiative timing for traps is something I've never even considered before, and my players have zero experience with (well, maybe one does, but I tend to doubt it). So I'm thinking, from my perspective, at least, that asking them roll initiative when something happens isn't going to make them automatically think that this has something to do with it, instead they'll be looking around for the monster that's sneaking up on them. Though yes, I can see how the original version would be more lethal.
Demi-Lich: Seriously, yes I do want to know. That, to my way of thinking, is going to be the main barometer of challenge for this. The traps are mostly about thinking your way through, being cautious and not triggering them in the first place. The "boss fight" at the end has to live up to the promise of the rest of the adventure: too easy, and it'll all seem pointless, too hard and it actually all is pointless.
Thank you for taking them time to point out these variations, I get where you're coming from now. Still, it seems like the 5e version is still incredibly difficult, but I admit I have no idea how to scale challenges in this game.
Some of the prime factors in how dangerous the Tomb was are tied directly into the game itself. NOTE I am not making complaint about 5e - I love 5e. But because the base rule set has changed, the level of lethality has changed. In an effort to increase understanding, I gave examples of what players would have to deal with when facing any dungeon, not just the Tomb.
In 1e, you recovered 1 hp per day. Currently, if you take a long rest, you get back all of your hp and all of your spells. So recovery from fights was a much more serious matter back then. Characters also died when they hit -10 hp. You started to bleed at 0 and damage that took you to -10 killed you. It is almost impossible to one-shot an average lvl 12 character. At worst, they drop to 0, then the party picks them up. There is a HUGE difference between doing 100 damage (in one hit) to a 50 hp character and doing 60 over time to a 50 hp character.
That's what I meant when I said the traps are trivial. Party bumps into traps or voluntarily jumps into them, somebody drops to 0 - so what? slap on a heal, go outside, take a long rest, try again, no pain. When the first trap you encounter can kill somebody, then you know it's serious business - like it's supposed to be.
Room 7 - 100 foot pit.
Bolts - yes, every round in that area, somebody gets shot no save. Only for 1d6 so no big deal. But 5e version gives 50% to happen, then Dex save.
Knock Out corridor - YES, the party falls asleep no save. 20-80 minutes. Every 10 minutes, 1 in 4 chance the juggernaut will come and smash them, no save. Even one person making their save will defang this trap.
RE: Spell selection. In 1e you had to pick which spells you were going to use for the day. Example: lvl 1 wizard could memorize 1 spell, he picks Sleep. Party runs into something immune to Sleep, oh well too bad. Currently, casters use spell slots which give a LOT of flexibility. Again, I'm not saying it was better, just informing you on what conditions were like back then.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Demi-Lich Currently a party can run up to it and pretty much smack it until it dies. Yes, I understand all of the abilities it has, and yes, the 5e version is badass. I never want to fight one. However, it's prime weakness is in the fact that it has a stat block. All of it's abilities can be avoided if you're lucky or have the right stats/immunities. It only takes ONE person to survive in order to save the whole party. It is only immune to normal weapons, poison, necrotic, and psychic damage. Lucky if it survives three rounds.
Originally, the Demi-Lich only had two stats. AC 26 and 50 hp.
Here's the kicker:
Demi-Lich is immune to EVERYTHING except:
Shatter - does 5 damage
Dispel Evil - does 10 damage
Divine Word - does 20 damage
Power Word Kill from an Ethereal caster - kills the beast. However, being ethereal inside the Tomb will summon demons.
A Fighter with a Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Ranger with a Sword of Sharpness or Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Paladin with a Vorpal Weapon, or Sword of Sharpness or +3 weapon can damage it. Smites would be ignored.
A Rogue can use a sling and hit it with a 10,000gp gem for 1 damage. There are 10 in the Tomb and a 50,000gp which will do 5 damage. Needless to say the gems are destroyed by doing this.
Those are the only things that can hurt it.
EVERYTIME it is touched or disturbed, it will scan the party, figure out who is most dangerous, and eat their soul, body destroyed, no save. This can happen multiple times in a round. 2 eye gems, 6 teeth. If there is anybody left, it send all of them 100-600 miles away, then they are cursed to be either a) always be hit be attackers b) always fail saves or c) only get 1/2 exp rewards. Only the last can be removed with Remove Curse and if it is, the character permanently loses 2 Charisma.
IF the party wins, the gems can be broken to release the souls but there needs to be an available body nearby to accept it - clone, simulacrum, random dead guy.
Have Fun =)
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Room 7: Ah, yeah, forgot about the "move the levers the wrong way" bit. But again, it's not the fall that's the danger. . . it's being trapped in their to slowly die of thirst or starvation (or I guess lack of fresh air if you're "lucky") because the other PCs won't make it to that room after you or find the level combination that opened the pit. And if they do. . . well, unless they can avoid falling in as well, that doesn't really do you much good, does it?
Spell Selection: That's still how it works in 5e, unless I'm really misreading things. Wizards still prepare their spells after a long rest, and can't change them until they long rest again. Also, long rests are restricted to once every 24 hours, so taking some damage, going outside to rest, and going back repeatedly isn't much of an option. And to me, it's rather heavily implied that the Tomb has the ability to reset itself, so even if you've "cleared" some of the traps, if you enter or leave you can just say they're reset (yes, the players knowing about them is an advantage, but if they forgot to map or write down instructions for a particularly nasty one. . .)
So, what makes this a cake walk for level 15 characters? Is it just the higher saves and hit points? And what about the CR 23 Demilich in its lair? Can four level 15 characters really squash that with no problem?
Again, I really do appreciate your input, thank you for taking the time.
It's a version to version misunderstanding regarding spells.
Example:
Currently a lvl 5 wizard has 4 / 3 / 2 spell slots. She can have a variety of spells prepared and can cast any of them freely and can upcast some of them in addition to having fairly useful cantrips. You can choose to cast any combination of spells you have prepared whether it's repeats of magic missile or magic missile, detect magic, and comprehend languages.
Originally, a wizard had 3 / 2 / 1 spells. you had to choose which spells to memorize. Meaning, you have to decide beforehand what you're going to cast. You don't get to choose between your laundry list of prepared spells. You might have every single 3rd level spell in your book, but if you memorized Fireball, you couldn't change it to something else. Also, every cantrip you know that does damage was a lvl 1 spell. Cantrips were useless (mostly). So if your wizard chose detect magic x3, that's it. He can cast detect magic three times and no other lvl 1 spells until he has time to change them. That's why spell choice was critical. If you walk into the demi-lich fight and your casters didn't happen to pick those spells that work, your party was SOL.
Currently, you can prepare the ones that work and other stuff, and cherry pick what to use when.
Oh yeah, speaking of cherries.
There was no revivify. Only raise dead and higher. Raise Dead costed 1 permanent Con point.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
So, what makes this a cake walk for level 15 characters? Is it just the higher saves and hit points? And what about the CR 23 Demilich in its lair? Can four level 15 characters really squash that with no problem?
Again, I really do appreciate your input, thank you for taking the time.
It's mostly the fact that characters get a save in the first place. Some of the traps and effects in the Tomb had no save, you just die. Like the demi-lich, if you're lucky, you live. Old style, no amount of luck saved you - you die, no save. Nono wait. ONE thing could save you. Scarab of Protection would give you a save but you needed to roll a 20.
Even just messing around with the character generator, you could create a party that had a decent chance of rolling a 15 con save, be immune or resistant to poison, be immune or resistant to disease, be immune or resistant to spells, and so on. The demi-lich can still take full damage from fire, lightning, cold, thunder, radiant, force and acid. It can be blinded, grappled, and restrained.
It has no way to defeat or escape a force cage.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Power Word Kill from an Ethereal caster - kills the beast. However, being ethereal inside the Tomb will summon demons.
A Fighter with a Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Ranger with a Sword of Sharpness or Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Paladin with a Vorpal Weapon, or Sword of Sharpness or +3 weapon can damage it. Smites would be ignored.
A Rogue can use a sling and hit it with a 10,000gp gem for 1 damage. There are 10 in the Tomb and a 50,000gp which will do 5 damage. Needless to say the gems are destroyed by doing this.
Those are the only things that can hurt it.
I think what Wysperra is getting at is that the game is greatly changed between then and now. Mechanics-wise this makes even this revamped edition a lot more possible.
When I ran this way back in the day, it was basically fundamentally impossible. How did you guarantee someone had a sword of sharpness or a vorpal sword? I suspect this was due to Gygax's players at the time. But for the rest of us, we didn't necessarily have those things.
The other big point is spell selection. As Wysp mentioned, you memorized a specific spell (ie detect evil vs magic missile). Then you were stuck with that. You didn't have slots to where you could cast magic missile more than once, unless you had memorized it more than once. This meant that before the dungeon started, players had their normal, more generic spell lists prepped.
We may want to start a new thread about "upgrading the tomb of horrors" as written for 5e. I'm interested in putting something like that together for my group as a one shot, but preserving more of the deadliness.
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
I've actually decided to run my group through, just so we can say we did it (D&D isn't even our main game, only myself and one other have played any version before). Looking at the level progression of the other adventures in Yawning Portal, I decided 15th level characters would be good. There's only three players, so one will play two characters, bringing them up to a solid four-person party. I was really curious about if I was scaling the PCs to the dungeon correctly, the advice in this thread has been very helpful for that. Thank you.
Lvl 15 5e characters would have a really easy time with the watered down version of this module. I'd recommend something lower, maybe 11.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Forgive me if this sounds argumentative, that's not my intent.
How, exactly, is this watered down? Everything I'd read indicated the 5e version was a faithful recreation of the original, all difficulty intact (and Acerack, with the new Lair and Legendary actions, is harder than ever before). Is that not accurate? If not, why not?
What I've read (and I admit, I haven't perused the entire module yet) gives the impression that it mostly doesn't matter how powerful the players are (except for the boss fight at the end, which is still optional); if they trigger traps, Something Bad will happen. If they pick the wrong entrance, that's it, adventure over and party dead then and there. Have I misread or misunderstood something?
I haven't run an adventure quite like this before, most games I run are focused more on role-play, social interaction, mystery, and combat. Traps, riddles, and mazes aren't things I typically run, which is part of the appeal to try this one just once. Thanks in advance for advice.
I'll start with "save or die" and continue if needed.
If your first reaction is "That's not fair" or "I can't do that to my players" or something similar, then you don't understand how difficult the Tomb was supposed to be. It wasn't designed to challenge players, it was designed to kill them.
Currently, the poison in the tomb is save or take 20-ish damage. That's a minor inconvenience, not a lethal threat.
Again, I'll continue if needed.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I ran this myself and wasn't sure same as you because they just say 'high level' in the Yawning Portal book. I assumed like level 13-15 and after running it, I think level 14 is a good hard level. Its high enough that they can succeed but low enough that they can still get the crap kicked out of them by the Tomb and Acererak and the monsters in it. Long rest only gets to happen once every 24 hours, and your "No Resting in the Tomb" idea is solid my dude. I say put flavor on it and give them horrible nightmares if they sleep in the tomb.
My second piece of having run this. If your players are making new characters for this, don't dole out magic items at all. I did a little bit and regret it. Maybe give them a magic weapon or Scrolls of Magic Weapon, but I think having too many magic things makes it too much easier.
Well, the main reason for doing it is just to say we did, in all its unrelentingly lethal glory. The players know exactly what they're getting into (well, not exactly, I'm trying to keep most of the traps a surprise. . . but they know it's supposed to be a meat grinder, and they're prepared to take losses and perhaps not make it through. They're planning backup characters, even). So "fair" isn't really a consideration. We're doing it to have fun, in a comedic sociopathy kind of way.
I did finish reading the module today, and while yeah, there's a lot of minor annoyances, there's also a lot of just brutal stuff, and lot of those minor annoyances come in quick enough succession that someone could die, yeah not to their first poisoned needle, but to their sixth or seventh after some spears and pits and other general unpleasantness.
And a lot of the "you die" stuff is exactly that. . . X happens, you die. No save, no avoidance, nice knowing you, save me a seat I'll be along shortly.
Long rest - you heal 1 hp, unless you are in a comfortable resting place like an Inn in which case you get 2. If the DM is feeling generous, he gives you your CON bonus.
Spell choice - nobody except sorcerers have spell slots. Every caster must declare which spells they have ready and must long rest to change their choices. Not prepared spells, useable spells. If you need Shatter and you didn't pick it, tough tooties.
Pits - Perception check, easy to avoid and again, weak poison. Original - if you're not specifically probing for them, you fall in. Save or die.
Sliding wall - on initiative 1 the block moves into place. When you tell players to roll for initiative, they will easily bypass this trap. Original - DM counts to 10 mentally, when 10 is reached, the block is in place - messed up, but true as written. The only (as written) way out is via Disintegrate, Shape Stone, or Wish.
Demon Mouth - 4d10 damage. Easily healed. Original Demon Mouth - touch it and die.
100 foot pit - non specific, but would guess 10d6 damage. Original 10d10
Swarm of snakes. Original - an actual swarm of snakes (12), save or die poison.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
4 armed Gargoyle - Original - 4 armed gargoyle multiattack 6 if two claws hit additional 7 damage. Not too threatening, but much more dangerous than multiattack 3.
Hall of Bolts 50% chance to trigger, DC 20 save. Original - somebody gets shot, no save, no armor.
Giant Skeleton - OK, this is a respectable monster but a pushoever against a lvl 12-14 party. Original - Always goes first. ALL edged weapons do 1 damage, blunt weapons do normal damage, totally immune to magic.
Blue altar - Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Original - Lightning Bolt for 40, Fireball for 60.
False Crypt Zombie - greater zombie - weak. Original - Absorb 12 levels of spells, partial levels spoil spells, AC 24.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Acid vat - several options to reduce damage. Original - no options to reduce damage (nothing at the time gave acid resistance).
Knock out coridor - save DC 15 vs Con or fall asleep - Original - Everybody falls asleep for 20-80 mins no save.
Cursed Gem- same as sliding block. Tell players to roll initiative will make avoiding the blast trivial. Original - 10 count by GM, then Boom.
Finally, the Demi-Lich. You seriously don't want to know.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Long Rest and Spell Choice: Not sure what you're getting at here.
Pits: The average damage is between 22 and 33, depending on successful save. Not lethal, certainly, but not exactly a scratch, either. It's one of many traps that seem, to me, less about killing the characters outright and more about wearing them down and consuming their resources, so things just get progressively deadlier.
Sliding Wall: Hmm, now that you mention it, I do see how the players could escape that fairly easily if they hightail it right away. But if they spend a round dithering, they're pretty much toast.
Demon Mouth: I assume you mean the one with the sphere of annihilation in it? Oh, yeah, I was assuming anything that went into it was destroyed, so if a player stuck their arm in they'd lose an arm. Ah, yes, now that I look at the sphere, I see what you mean. Though, again, 4d10 damage isn't exactly nothing, but players missing arms or getting weapons destroyed poking at it would be a lot more fun (for the sadistic DM, anyway).
100 foot pit: There isn't one of those. There's a 30 foot pit in the first hall, then much later a ten foot pit with a shooting spear trap. 30 foot fall is 3d6, ten foot is 1d6. I suppose I could deepen the pits for more damage, but again, they strike me as being an inconvenience and drain on resources (exactly how many pitons did you bring? hmm, noted) than something inherently fatal.
Bolts From Above: In the original, do you mean every round someone was automatically struck for damage?
Acid Vat: Funny you should mention that. Two of the characters are Dragonborn, one a Bronze (because she likes lightning) the other Green (because he asked if Poison Resistance would be a good thing in the Tomb, and I shrugged and said "it wouldn't be bad.") So I don't know if anyone will be prepared to deal with acid.
Knock-Out Corridor: So, as I understood it, the point of the knock-out gas was to keep the characters helpless so they could mowed over by the Raiders of the Lost Ark boulder, correct?
Cursed Gem: Again, I can see the point. However, initiative timing for traps is something I've never even considered before, and my players have zero experience with (well, maybe one does, but I tend to doubt it). So I'm thinking, from my perspective, at least, that asking them roll initiative when something happens isn't going to make them automatically think that this has something to do with it, instead they'll be looking around for the monster that's sneaking up on them. Though yes, I can see how the original version would be more lethal.
Demi-Lich: Seriously, yes I do want to know. That, to my way of thinking, is going to be the main barometer of challenge for this. The traps are mostly about thinking your way through, being cautious and not triggering them in the first place. The "boss fight" at the end has to live up to the promise of the rest of the adventure: too easy, and it'll all seem pointless, too hard and it actually all is pointless.
Thank you for taking them time to point out these variations, I get where you're coming from now. Still, it seems like the 5e version is still incredibly difficult, but I admit I have no idea how to scale challenges in this game.
Some of the prime factors in how dangerous the Tomb was are tied directly into the game itself. NOTE I am not making complaint about 5e - I love 5e. But because the base rule set has changed, the level of lethality has changed. In an effort to increase understanding, I gave examples of what players would have to deal with when facing any dungeon, not just the Tomb.
In 1e, you recovered 1 hp per day. Currently, if you take a long rest, you get back all of your hp and all of your spells. So recovery from fights was a much more serious matter back then. Characters also died when they hit -10 hp. You started to bleed at 0 and damage that took you to -10 killed you. It is almost impossible to one-shot an average lvl 12 character. At worst, they drop to 0, then the party picks them up. There is a HUGE difference between doing 100 damage (in one hit) to a 50 hp character and doing 60 over time to a 50 hp character.
That's what I meant when I said the traps are trivial. Party bumps into traps or voluntarily jumps into them, somebody drops to 0 - so what? slap on a heal, go outside, take a long rest, try again, no pain. When the first trap you encounter can kill somebody, then you know it's serious business - like it's supposed to be.
Room 7 - 100 foot pit.
Bolts - yes, every round in that area, somebody gets shot no save. Only for 1d6 so no big deal. But 5e version gives 50% to happen, then Dex save.
Knock Out corridor - YES, the party falls asleep no save. 20-80 minutes. Every 10 minutes, 1 in 4 chance the juggernaut will come and smash them, no save. Even one person making their save will defang this trap.
RE: Spell selection. In 1e you had to pick which spells you were going to use for the day. Example: lvl 1 wizard could memorize 1 spell, he picks Sleep. Party runs into something immune to Sleep, oh well too bad. Currently, casters use spell slots which give a LOT of flexibility. Again, I'm not saying it was better, just informing you on what conditions were like back then.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Demi-Lich Currently a party can run up to it and pretty much smack it until it dies. Yes, I understand all of the abilities it has, and yes, the 5e version is badass. I never want to fight one. However, it's prime weakness is in the fact that it has a stat block. All of it's abilities can be avoided if you're lucky or have the right stats/immunities. It only takes ONE person to survive in order to save the whole party. It is only immune to normal weapons, poison, necrotic, and psychic damage. Lucky if it survives three rounds.
Originally, the Demi-Lich only had two stats. AC 26 and 50 hp.
Here's the kicker:
Demi-Lich is immune to EVERYTHING except:
Shatter - does 5 damage
Dispel Evil - does 10 damage
Divine Word - does 20 damage
Power Word Kill from an Ethereal caster - kills the beast. However, being ethereal inside the Tomb will summon demons.
A Fighter with a Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Ranger with a Sword of Sharpness or Vorpal Weapon can damage it
A Paladin with a Vorpal Weapon, or Sword of Sharpness or +3 weapon can damage it. Smites would be ignored.
A Rogue can use a sling and hit it with a 10,000gp gem for 1 damage. There are 10 in the Tomb and a 50,000gp which will do 5 damage. Needless to say the gems are destroyed by doing this.
Those are the only things that can hurt it.
EVERYTIME it is touched or disturbed, it will scan the party, figure out who is most dangerous, and eat their soul, body destroyed, no save. This can happen multiple times in a round. 2 eye gems, 6 teeth. If there is anybody left, it send all of them 100-600 miles away, then they are cursed to be either a) always be hit be attackers b) always fail saves or c) only get 1/2 exp rewards. Only the last can be removed with Remove Curse and if it is, the character permanently loses 2 Charisma.
IF the party wins, the gems can be broken to release the souls but there needs to be an available body nearby to accept it - clone, simulacrum, random dead guy.
Have Fun =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Room 7: Ah, yeah, forgot about the "move the levers the wrong way" bit. But again, it's not the fall that's the danger. . . it's being trapped in their to slowly die of thirst or starvation (or I guess lack of fresh air if you're "lucky") because the other PCs won't make it to that room after you or find the level combination that opened the pit. And if they do. . . well, unless they can avoid falling in as well, that doesn't really do you much good, does it?
Spell Selection: That's still how it works in 5e, unless I'm really misreading things. Wizards still prepare their spells after a long rest, and can't change them until they long rest again. Also, long rests are restricted to once every 24 hours, so taking some damage, going outside to rest, and going back repeatedly isn't much of an option. And to me, it's rather heavily implied that the Tomb has the ability to reset itself, so even if you've "cleared" some of the traps, if you enter or leave you can just say they're reset (yes, the players knowing about them is an advantage, but if they forgot to map or write down instructions for a particularly nasty one. . .)
So, what makes this a cake walk for level 15 characters? Is it just the higher saves and hit points? And what about the CR 23 Demilich in its lair? Can four level 15 characters really squash that with no problem?
Again, I really do appreciate your input, thank you for taking the time.
It's a version to version misunderstanding regarding spells.
Example:
Currently a lvl 5 wizard has 4 / 3 / 2 spell slots. She can have a variety of spells prepared and can cast any of them freely and can upcast some of them in addition to having fairly useful cantrips. You can choose to cast any combination of spells you have prepared whether it's repeats of magic missile or magic missile, detect magic, and comprehend languages.
Originally, a wizard had 3 / 2 / 1 spells. you had to choose which spells to memorize. Meaning, you have to decide beforehand what you're going to cast. You don't get to choose between your laundry list of prepared spells. You might have every single 3rd level spell in your book, but if you memorized Fireball, you couldn't change it to something else. Also, every cantrip you know that does damage was a lvl 1 spell. Cantrips were useless (mostly). So if your wizard chose detect magic x3, that's it. He can cast detect magic three times and no other lvl 1 spells until he has time to change them. That's why spell choice was critical. If you walk into the demi-lich fight and your casters didn't happen to pick those spells that work, your party was SOL.
Currently, you can prepare the ones that work and other stuff, and cherry pick what to use when.
Oh yeah, speaking of cherries.
There was no revivify. Only raise dead and higher. Raise Dead costed 1 permanent Con point.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It's mostly the fact that characters get a save in the first place. Some of the traps and effects in the Tomb had no save, you just die. Like the demi-lich, if you're lucky, you live. Old style, no amount of luck saved you - you die, no save. Nono wait. ONE thing could save you. Scarab of Protection would give you a save but you needed to roll a 20.
Even just messing around with the character generator, you could create a party that had a decent chance of rolling a 15 con save, be immune or resistant to poison, be immune or resistant to disease, be immune or resistant to spells, and so on. The demi-lich can still take full damage from fire, lightning, cold, thunder, radiant, force and acid. It can be blinded, grappled, and restrained.
It has no way to defeat or escape a force cage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
On average, 3 upcast Magic Missile spells will kill it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I think what Wysperra is getting at is that the game is greatly changed between then and now. Mechanics-wise this makes even this revamped edition a lot more possible.
When I ran this way back in the day, it was basically fundamentally impossible. How did you guarantee someone had a sword of sharpness or a vorpal sword? I suspect this was due to Gygax's players at the time. But for the rest of us, we didn't necessarily have those things.
The other big point is spell selection. As Wysp mentioned, you memorized a specific spell (ie detect evil vs magic missile). Then you were stuck with that. You didn't have slots to where you could cast magic missile more than once, unless you had memorized it more than once. This meant that before the dungeon started, players had their normal, more generic spell lists prepped.
We may want to start a new thread about "upgrading the tomb of horrors" as written for 5e. I'm interested in putting something like that together for my group as a one shot, but preserving more of the deadliness.
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
Ah, I see. I had misread how preparing spells works in this edition, and yes that provides a lot more flexibility.