XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
If the players aren't going to engage with plot hooks laid out without an XP incentive what are they even doing there? Sorry but I'm really struggling with the whole idea of players not wanting to play without you giving them little rewards. One of the most basic parts of Session Zero character creation is "create characters that want to go on an adventure" and anything else is just toxic behaviour by players who sound like they'd rather be somewhere else
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
See I personally struggle with this, it sets up a situation where players can almost be trying to please the DM and their subjective opinions on 'good ideas' or 'great play'. Having run games for many, many 'strangers' at FLGS or online that has never led to a positive experience. So I imagine this will be hugely dependant on the DM style.
I mean this is the same reason I switched to Tales of Valiant's 'Luck' system over D&D Inspiration. It makes the resource more reliable for players to get hold of the points, and it takes some of the subjectivity of a DM out of the equation. It effectively puts things closer to the players.
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
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He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
First off, D&D is a lot of different games, and no one is wrong for having whatever motivation they have. It’s a more than a bit gatekeep-y to say that people with a different motivation than you should find another game.
But also, no one who uses xp has said or suggested that xp is a motivation for their players. It can be a handy, easy to use accounting method without being a player motivation.
I mostly use milestone, but the two times I’ve used xp, the party would just go off and kill like random goblin camps or something that wasn’t harming them. They became murder hobos, essentially. Also, can we please not argue over this?
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Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
Same! That’s really what I consider milestone to be. Especially if I use campaign books, that’s what I prefer.
If we actually use the DMG terminology (which, well, not even published adventures do, the ones I've seen all just say "award a level bump for doing X"), milestones are really just 'xp award for completing a quest', what most people actually do is some form of Level Advancement without XP (though I certainly don't do it as fast as the DMG advises).
Ohhh. I have definitely been misreading it! Thank you for that clarification. And yeah, I will definitely hold off on level advancements for a little while longer than is recommended, to give the party a chance to test out their new abilities/spells before they get even more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
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Milestone as it can involve the story more
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
It depends on the type of campaign.
Dungeon Crawl….. xp.
Story driven roleplay?…. Milestone.
I think xp turns gamers into murder hobos. 🤪
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
If the players aren't going to engage with plot hooks laid out without an XP incentive what are they even doing there? Sorry but I'm really struggling with the whole idea of players not wanting to play without you giving them little rewards. One of the most basic parts of Session Zero character creation is "create characters that want to go on an adventure" and anything else is just toxic behaviour by players who sound like they'd rather be somewhere else
See I personally struggle with this, it sets up a situation where players can almost be trying to please the DM and their subjective opinions on 'good ideas' or 'great play'. Having run games for many, many 'strangers' at FLGS or online that has never led to a positive experience. So I imagine this will be hugely dependant on the DM style.
I mean this is the same reason I switched to Tales of Valiant's 'Luck' system over D&D Inspiration. It makes the resource more reliable for players to get hold of the points, and it takes some of the subjectivity of a DM out of the equation. It effectively puts things closer to the players.
I imagine this is a GM style thing though.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
While I voted for milestone leveling, that's not really even what I use. The general way I do leveling is just:
If the answer to both is "yes", they get a level increase.
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
First off, D&D is a lot of different games, and no one is wrong for having whatever motivation they have. It’s a more than a bit gatekeep-y to say that people with a different motivation than you should find another game.
But also, no one who uses xp has said or suggested that xp is a motivation for their players. It can be a handy, easy to use accounting method without being a player motivation.
I mostly use milestone, but the two times I’ve used xp, the party would just go off and kill like random goblin camps or something that wasn’t harming them. They became murder hobos, essentially. Also, can we please not argue over this?
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
Same! That’s really what I consider milestone to be. Especially if I use campaign books, that’s what I prefer.
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
If we actually use the DMG terminology (which, well, not even published adventures do, the ones I've seen all just say "award a level bump for doing X"), milestones are really just 'xp award for completing a quest', what most people actually do is some form of Level Advancement without XP (though I certainly don't do it as fast as the DMG advises).
Ohhh. I have definitely been misreading it! Thank you for that clarification. And yeah, I will definitely hold off on level advancements for a little while longer than is recommended, to give the party a chance to test out their new abilities/spells before they get even more.
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!