XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
XP by far, though i do have to admit that it causes PCs to level up a bit too fast. I've been in campaigns of each type, and invaribly the milestone campaign players end up making comments like, "what does it matter, we'll go up when the adventure or DM want us to, so it doesn't matter what we do." Or, "why stick our necks out, we get to level up regardless of whether we fight it or just hide and let the NPCs die."
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
If the players aren't going to engage with plot hooks laid out without an XP incentive what are they even doing there? Sorry but I'm really struggling with the whole idea of players not wanting to play without you giving them little rewards. One of the most basic parts of Session Zero character creation is "create characters that want to go on an adventure" and anything else is just toxic behaviour by players who sound like they'd rather be somewhere else
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
See I personally struggle with this, it sets up a situation where players can almost be trying to please the DM and their subjective opinions on 'good ideas' or 'great play'. Having run games for many, many 'strangers' at FLGS or online that has never led to a positive experience. So I imagine this will be hugely dependant on the DM style.
I mean this is the same reason I switched to Tales of Valiant's 'Luck' system over D&D Inspiration. It makes the resource more reliable for players to get hold of the points, and it takes some of the subjectivity of a DM out of the equation. It effectively puts things closer to the players.
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
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He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
First off, D&D is a lot of different games, and no one is wrong for having whatever motivation they have. It’s a more than a bit gatekeep-y to say that people with a different motivation than you should find another game.
But also, no one who uses xp has said or suggested that xp is a motivation for their players. It can be a handy, easy to use accounting method without being a player motivation.
I mostly use milestone, but the two times I’ve used xp, the party would just go off and kill like random goblin camps or something that wasn’t harming them. They became murder hobos, essentially. Also, can we please not argue over this?
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Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
Same! That’s really what I consider milestone to be. Especially if I use campaign books, that’s what I prefer.
If we actually use the DMG terminology (which, well, not even published adventures do, the ones I've seen all just say "award a level bump for doing X"), milestones are really just 'xp award for completing a quest', what most people actually do is some form of Level Advancement without XP (though I certainly don't do it as fast as the DMG advises).
Ohhh. I have definitely been misreading it! Thank you for that clarification. And yeah, I will definitely hold off on level advancements for a little while longer than is recommended, to give the party a chance to test out their new abilities/spells before they get even more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
First off, D&D is a lot of different games, and no one is wrong for having whatever motivation they have. It’s a more than a bit gatekeep-y to say that people with a different motivation than you should find another game.
But also, no one who uses xp has said or suggested that xp is a motivation for their players. It can be a handy, easy to use accounting method without being a player motivation.
Except HarmAssassin said exactly that about their players
I started playing D&D long before MMRPGs were popular, in other words I started playing D&D first, I'm in it for the story. Most of my players started playing MMRPGs first, then discovered D&D, they are in it for the little bags of xp that magically drop whenever you do something right. To them the story is secondary, they measure success not based on story, but on going up in levels.
I have had limited success in slowly changes those views over time.
D&D players take many forms and are as varied as the entire population is, and there are huge differences in how they play depending on when they entered the game and how.
It has been my experience that a milestone system, which was used by some long before that term was ever codified into the player's handbook, changes PC behaviour. Once the PCs realize that the 'side quests' have no effect on whether they level up or not, they will start skipping them. They start focusing on the central story only, and start ignoring the shopkeeper who's having trouble with the local thieve's guild or the caravan being harrassed by a monster - because they know there's no xp in it for them.
Some PCs are motivated by how much money their characters hoard. Some PCs are motivated by the story that is being jointly created. Some PCs are motivated by how much they can craft. Some PCs are motivated by how many baddies they can blast into dust in a single action. Some PCs are motivated by collecting xp as if it produced a contact high.
Maybe you are fortunate enough to have a group that's motivated by story, i'd love to find a group like that, but in 40+ yrs of gaming, of all the groups i've found, formed, and merged together - I have only found a couple of players motivated by story. Most, especially those who were introduced to the genre thru video games, are in it for the little magic numbers (and corresponding dopamine hit) that appear over their heads whenever they do something in-game.
For those players who approach the game like it's a video or board game, a milestone type of reward system leads to bad behavior and hurts the story.
I am playing in a campaign that technically uses xp, but there was one stretch of the campaign that seemed to switch to milestone. We knew that we would not level up until our PCs reached a destination that would take us months, in and out of game, to reach (long distance travel, well over a thousand miles). That DM's style is to never fast forward, and to play out EVERY day. Very quickly random encounters began to be seen by some as a hindrance to reaching that 'level up'. Optional side quests and exploration was routinely avoided, because that too would mean having to go more games before reaching the level up spot.
That is why I say the xp system is better than milestone. You can still make sure the PCs reach the appropriate level you want them at, simply by adjusting the xp you award, but it eliminates the problem of PCs skipping content because they know it doesn't come with the one thing they want - xp. Let's face it, although I don't like generalizing, there are certain generations that are kind of known for seeking immediate reward and lose interest in things that don't give a constant supply of rewards such as xp. There's a reason many products are designed to give frequent small rewards instead of less frequent larger rewards.
Milestone as it can involve the story more
I've exclusively used Milestones as a DM and all but one campaign as a player and never once had a player say "why bother?" You're there for the story, if an arbitrary number is the only thing motivating you then darts might be more your game
It depends on the type of campaign.
Dungeon Crawl….. xp.
Story driven roleplay?…. Milestone.
I think xp turns gamers into murder hobos. 🤪
You know you can hand out story awards, right? And those quotes I listed, were actual quotes of what people in our extended group have said.
Also with xp, you can hand out mini-awards to reward excellent roleplay, good ideas, or other examples of great play. 50xp here, 50xp there. Once one player gets one, soon the entire group is trying to get them (positive reinforcement). Can't do that with milestone - and let's face it, if the group completes a chapter of the story, as DM you know what their xp total is, you can hand out a reward that causes them to level up, if that's what you want. You have much greater control with xp than milestone, while players still get to see progress being made between level ups.
Handing out xp has all the benefits of the milestone system and more, and every electronic device comes with a built in calculator, so 'math is hard' isn't even an excuse.
But as always, you do your table the way you want.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
If the players aren't going to engage with plot hooks laid out without an XP incentive what are they even doing there? Sorry but I'm really struggling with the whole idea of players not wanting to play without you giving them little rewards. One of the most basic parts of Session Zero character creation is "create characters that want to go on an adventure" and anything else is just toxic behaviour by players who sound like they'd rather be somewhere else
See I personally struggle with this, it sets up a situation where players can almost be trying to please the DM and their subjective opinions on 'good ideas' or 'great play'. Having run games for many, many 'strangers' at FLGS or online that has never led to a positive experience. So I imagine this will be hugely dependant on the DM style.
I mean this is the same reason I switched to Tales of Valiant's 'Luck' system over D&D Inspiration. It makes the resource more reliable for players to get hold of the points, and it takes some of the subjectivity of a DM out of the equation. It effectively puts things closer to the players.
I imagine this is a GM style thing though.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
While I voted for milestone leveling, that's not really even what I use. The general way I do leveling is just:
If the answer to both is "yes", they get a level increase.
DnD is a game that is built around the story, moving forward, battling foes, making tough decisions, and developing character stories. If your players are only motivated to play by the fact that they gain XP for doing things, then maybe they should investigate the world of online games. For good characters, the motivation is to vanquish the evil, loot the hoard, gain the throne, or whatever it is that the character wants, not the player. TTRPGs are unique because of their flexibility and open-ended nature. Nothing else can realistically compete with them. If a player isn't interested in that, then DnD isn't really going to hold much compared to other alternatives that use those motivations.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
First off, D&D is a lot of different games, and no one is wrong for having whatever motivation they have. It’s a more than a bit gatekeep-y to say that people with a different motivation than you should find another game.
But also, no one who uses xp has said or suggested that xp is a motivation for their players. It can be a handy, easy to use accounting method without being a player motivation.
I mostly use milestone, but the two times I’ve used xp, the party would just go off and kill like random goblin camps or something that wasn’t harming them. They became murder hobos, essentially. Also, can we please not argue over this?
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
Same! That’s really what I consider milestone to be. Especially if I use campaign books, that’s what I prefer.
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
If we actually use the DMG terminology (which, well, not even published adventures do, the ones I've seen all just say "award a level bump for doing X"), milestones are really just 'xp award for completing a quest', what most people actually do is some form of Level Advancement without XP (though I certainly don't do it as fast as the DMG advises).
Ohhh. I have definitely been misreading it! Thank you for that clarification. And yeah, I will definitely hold off on level advancements for a little while longer than is recommended, to give the party a chance to test out their new abilities/spells before they get even more.
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
Except HarmAssassin said exactly that about their players
That’s true…
Shoutout to the 2 Crew! - the cast of Not Another D&D Podcast
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. He/Him.
Ravenclaw, bookworm, Lego fanatic, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love K-pop Demon Hunters and the theatre. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
I absolutely love Korean mythology, so if you want to talk about that, feel free to!
I started playing D&D long before MMRPGs were popular, in other words I started playing D&D first, I'm in it for the story.
Most of my players started playing MMRPGs first, then discovered D&D, they are in it for the little bags of xp that magically drop whenever you do something right. To them the story is secondary, they measure success not based on story, but on going up in levels.
I have had limited success in slowly changes those views over time.
D&D players take many forms and are as varied as the entire population is, and there are huge differences in how they play depending on when they entered the game and how.
It has been my experience that a milestone system, which was used by some long before that term was ever codified into the player's handbook, changes PC behaviour. Once the PCs realize that the 'side quests' have no effect on whether they level up or not, they will start skipping them. They start focusing on the central story only, and start ignoring the shopkeeper who's having trouble with the local thieve's guild or the caravan being harrassed by a monster - because they know there's no xp in it for them.
Some PCs are motivated by how much money their characters hoard.
Some PCs are motivated by the story that is being jointly created.
Some PCs are motivated by how much they can craft.
Some PCs are motivated by how many baddies they can blast into dust in a single action.
Some PCs are motivated by collecting xp as if it produced a contact high.
Maybe you are fortunate enough to have a group that's motivated by story, i'd love to find a group like that, but in 40+ yrs of gaming, of all the groups i've found, formed, and merged together - I have only found a couple of players motivated by story. Most, especially those who were introduced to the genre thru video games, are in it for the little magic numbers (and corresponding dopamine hit) that appear over their heads whenever they do something in-game.
For those players who approach the game like it's a video or board game, a milestone type of reward system leads to bad behavior and hurts the story.
I am playing in a campaign that technically uses xp, but there was one stretch of the campaign that seemed to switch to milestone. We knew that we would not level up until our PCs reached a destination that would take us months, in and out of game, to reach (long distance travel, well over a thousand miles). That DM's style is to never fast forward, and to play out EVERY day. Very quickly random encounters began to be seen by some as a hindrance to reaching that 'level up'. Optional side quests and exploration was routinely avoided, because that too would mean having to go more games before reaching the level up spot.
That is why I say the xp system is better than milestone. You can still make sure the PCs reach the appropriate level you want them at, simply by adjusting the xp you award, but it eliminates the problem of PCs skipping content because they know it doesn't come with the one thing they want - xp. Let's face it, although I don't like generalizing, there are certain generations that are kind of known for seeking immediate reward and lose interest in things that don't give a constant supply of rewards such as xp. There's a reason many products are designed to give frequent small rewards instead of less frequent larger rewards.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.