Upgradable Gear

Hey folks,
I was curious if/how you guys approach upgraded items. I know I'm gonna get referred to Critical Role Vestiges, but I was curious at large.

Here's the situation: I think my players have just gotten REALLY attached to their initial magical gear. My trio of players are now level 7, so they've all had 1 or 2 magical weapon by now. Paladin got a warhammer and a shield, Sorcerer got a staff and wand. The Rogue actually got his 4th last session, as I'm of the mind that if the module is throwing an item that literally nobody can use, I swap it, or if the item has a relevant effect for later, I change its type.

So here I am, discussing with the Rogue on what he would like this war pick to be swapped into instead as nobody would have a use for it (and he's the only one with an attunement slot open right now, so the others said he should get it). He ultimately wanted that +1 weapon to be a scimitar so his Nick off-hands are bigger than daggers (I mean, ok, d6 vs d4). That brings him up to an essentially vanilla +1 shortsword, his 2 enchanted +1 daggers (technically both daggers of venom, but I switched one to "night" necrotic damage for variety) and now a +1 enspelled scimitar (he's going to drop mastery on daggers since Rogues only get 2).

The part that had me confused though is how he seemed very against replacing that first +1 shortsword he got at like level 3 or 4. Thing is fundamentally vanilla, and I was totally fine making that new enspelled weapon a replacement +1 shortsword, or even a +1 rapier. In the end, I'm not out here to say he chose "wrong", that'd be dumb of me to say, but I was just surprised HOW MUCH that technically "weakest/plainest" sword was not an option for switching. The more I'm thinking about it, the Paladin with his fabled warhammer and the Sorcerer with his "gun" wand might very well be the same too.

So I'm thinking that I'm going to need to make some forms of "item awakening" upgrades when +2 gear or so on comes into play. 
Any suggested pathways on this topic? 
I was already considering "reforging" like, base Paladin armor into a +1 version through their Bastion once they hit level 9, but "wow you really don't want to part with that even if I'm allowing you to pick an objective upgrade" was a surprise.

Thanks

Quote from Acatia >>

Hey folks,
I was curious if/how you guys approach upgraded items. I know I'm gonna get referred to Critical Role Vestiges, but I was curious at large.

Here's the situation: I think my players have just gotten REALLY attached to their initial magical gear. My trio of players are now level 7, so they've all had 1 or 2 magical weapon by now. Paladin got a warhammer and a shield, Sorcerer got a staff and wand. The Rogue actually got his 4th last session, as I'm of the mind that if the module is throwing an item that literally nobody can use, I swap it, or if the item has a relevant effect for later, I change its type.

So here I am, discussing with the Rogue on what he would like this war pick to be swapped into instead as nobody would have a use for it (and he's the only one with an attunement slot open right now, so the others said he should get it). He ultimately wanted that +1 weapon to be a scimitar so his Nick off-hands are bigger than daggers (I mean, ok, d6 vs d4). That brings him up to an essentially vanilla +1 shortsword, his 2 enchanted +1 daggers (technically both daggers of venom, but I switched one to "night" necrotic damage for variety) and now a +1 enspelled scimitar (he's going to drop mastery on daggers since Rogues only get 2).

The part that had me confused though is how he seemed very against replacing that first +1 shortsword he got at like level 3 or 4. Thing is fundamentally vanilla, and I was totally fine making that new enspelled weapon a replacement +1 shortsword, or even a +1 rapier. In the end, I'm not out here to say he chose "wrong", that'd be dumb of me to say, but I was just surprised HOW MUCH that technically "weakest/plainest" sword was not an option for switching. The more I'm thinking about it, the Paladin with his fabled warhammer and the Sorcerer with his "gun" wand might very well be the same too.

So I'm thinking that I'm going to need to make some forms of "item awakening" upgrades when +2 gear or so on comes into play. 
Any suggested pathways on this topic? 
I was already considering "reforging" like, base Paladin armor into a +1 version through their Bastion once they hit level 9, but "wow you really don't want to part with that even if I'm allowing you to pick an objective upgrade" was a surprise.

Thanks

 Side quest: visit the forge at the volcano (mt doom)

A side quest would be quite a suitable solution. Have them meet some master smith who tells they can enhance the weapon if the party brings the right materials.

As an answer to your question, I have a specific sword that requires it collects blood (i.e. deal damage to creatures with blood) and after it has collected X amount, it upgrades to a more potent version. Then I just have my own spreadsheet tracking the damage dealt with the sword. Depending on your item, you might want to have your player track that, but I keep the tracking to myself, since it's actually a curse that waits to awaken.

I’ve run into this as well — players often get attached to the story of an item rather than its stats.

What I do is stop “replacing” gear and instead upgrade it in place: the same sword/staff/shield just evolves over time and gains new properties or becomes +2 through story moments. That way nobody feels like they’re losing something.

Your idea of “item awakening” is actually a solid solution — it keeps progression balanced while preserving player attachment.

First off: there is no need to progress magic items. D&D is not Pathfinder, monsters are balanced based on a party with minimal or no magic items, so any magic items will put player characters above the curve and you'll need to rebalance encounters to account for it.

Item awakening work great and allows characters to develop their characteristic load out and an attachment to their gear, however it requires narrative consistency so there is some reason why it progresses rather than just upgrading it because they hit a particular level. 

I’ve often wished D&D did better with upgrading gear. There’s the classic trope of the kid picking up a parent’s sword and charging into battle. I really wanted some structure for the kid to be able to keep using that sword at high levels. And, yes, I know magic items aren’t required, but kind of they are.

Besides the vestiges, Fizban’s has a similar mechanic for powering up gear that involves letting the item simmer in a dragon horde. While that might not be practical, you could include some kind of magical pool or something and let them leave items in it for a long rest, or a mystical figure appearing and infusing the weapon with more power.

Item awakening systems are a good idea to make the gear feel dynamic and more than just words on paper.

Just sets some requirements or wait for moments that feel thematic, and then give the item a bonus, such as higher attack roll bonuses, more charges, etc. It's fairly simple, and you've worked it out yourself, as it would appear.

I am also really attached to my gear - it has memories, history, etc. A system that lets me reforge and upgrade the energy of a beloved weapon or tool - or that has a major story beat that does it - is so much more exciting than just going shopping for a new one.

Quote from cl0ud_stalker_234 >>

 Side quest: visit the forge at the volcano (mt doom)

Right, I'm probably due for my "is this from Tolkien?" quota.

Quote from Scruvy >>

A side quest would be quite a suitable solution. Have them meet some master smith who tells they can enhance the weapon if the party brings the right materials.

As an answer to your question, I have a specific sword that requires it collects blood (i.e. deal damage to creatures with blood) and after it has collected X amount, it upgrades to a more potent version. Then I just have my own spreadsheet tracking the damage dealt with the sword. Depending on your item, you might want to have your player track that, but I keep the tracking to myself, since it's actually a curse that waits to awaken.

Side quests are definitely on my list of "how did that happen". Granted there is a somewhat simmering urgency as part of the Shattered Obelisk I'm running, though some of that Far Realm influence could be just another way to impact said items.

Quote from VaultRunner854 >>

I’ve run into this as well — players often get attached to the story of an item rather than its stats.

What I do is stop “replacing” gear and instead upgrade it in place: the same sword/staff/shield just evolves over time and gains new properties or becomes +2 through story moments. That way nobody feels like they’re losing something.

Your idea of “item awakening” is actually a solid solution — it keeps progression balanced while preserving player attachment.

Honestly, I guess this could be a face value issue of running a module. It should be plenty easy to give new features to random items I've created. The issue is more of finding a plausible connection to this new item that could have been a latent improvement instead of "here's a new sword better than the first one you've ever had".

Quote from Agilemind >>

First off: there is no need to progress magic items. D&D is not Pathfinder, monsters are balanced based on a party with minimal or no magic items, so any magic items will put player characters above the curve and you'll need to rebalance encounters to account for it.

Item awakening work great and allows characters to develop their characteristic load out and an attachment to their gear, however it requires narrative consistency so there is some reason why it progresses rather than just upgrading it because they hit a particular level. 

I mean, yes and no. I am running a party of 3 players in a module I'm well aware was made for 4-5. For the most part, I've handled that with giving extra healing potions in random spots and minor fudging in extreme circumstances (both ways). This specific situation arises from points where I'm reading what's coming up next and why said item is clearly placed there to provide assistance to a party who has otherwise no access to this. In the case of the item that started this whole brainstorm, it's a group of higher CR monsters with access to the Darkness spell that WILL be guarding one of the places they are literally tasked to retrieve something except they have sunlight sensitivity and this item gives them a daily Daylight spell.

For sure, I'm going to tie upgrades as narrative hooks as much as possible (i.e., at worse their hired Bastion Blacksmith is a relevant character in my Paladin's story).

Quote from Xalthu >>

Besides the vestiges, Fizban’s has a similar mechanic for powering up gear that involves letting the item simmer in a dragon horde. While that might not be practical, you could include some kind of magical pool or something and let them leave items in it for a long rest, or a mystical figure appearing and infusing the weapon with more power.

Good to know there is some hints of doing this again. Lost Mines has a temporary enchantment forge, but that was the issue, buffs were only a couple hours so it was only realistic while in the Echo Cave... and it's gonna sound real cheap if every dungeon suddenly has those same magic forges.

With how much Far Realm involvement there is in the 2nd half of the Phandelver module, at least I'll have the extra-planar energy option in my backpocket sometimes.

Quote from WolfeCriedPup >>

Item awakening systems are a good idea to make the gear feel dynamic and more than just words on paper.

Just sets some requirements or wait for moments that feel thematic, and then give the item a bonus, such as higher attack roll bonuses, more charges, etc. It's fairly simple, and you've worked it out yourself, as it would appear.

I was curious if there was a pre-built system I could divert to in case of emergency (apparently Fizban's might). In a way, I'm very pleased as it's showing my players have come to adopt their characters so much that they have developed that level of attachment to items. I always try to not impose my level of player RP as their DM, but I'm definitely going to scour the module for potential connections that would indeed be thematic so I can avoid the "fabled holy warhammer" they found to be replaced by a +2 rando weapon.

As a practical issue, upgrading an item by one rarity step is a similar reward to just gaining an item of the higher rarity -- there's a small difference in that you can't sell or reuse the older item, but there's also a benefit that the item is presumably of a type that you actually want. Thus, if you'd normally give out a Rare item as a reward for a particular quest, you can instead give an Upgrade to Rare as a reward for the same quests.

The core of the problem is that the scaling of items doesn't play well with proficiency bonuses. If you create a weapon or other magic item that scales with Proficiency Bonus that tends to scale far better than one that bumps up by +1 every few levels. 

At its core both 5e and 5.5e have a design that seems to be inspired by the idea that players should get everything early, they shouldn't have to wait for their characters to get powerful. As a result, scaling isn't even across level progression. It's why giving a PC their mother's favourite waraxe that has a +4 is going to make them immediately powerful at level 1, but the axe is going to be pretty rubbish by level 12 compared with other magic items out there. Compared to other TTRPGs D&D 5/5.5e doesn't allow every +1 to have much of an effect even cumulatively, my assessment is that this is largely due to the way feats and multiclassing were designed, they undermine the progression and meaningfulness of each additional +1 on a stat, ability, or save. When a player character through a mix of feats, min-maxing, and multiclassing can develop a +10, an additional one point doesn't make much of an effect. 

The other factor at play here is the DC/AC ladder.  The DC ladder (rules as written) maxes out at 30, meaning that when a player character hits a +10 in something a 'hard' check becomes little more than a 50/50 shot. In fact due to inspiration, feats, and suchlike it's often more like a 60% chance of success. With most standard d20, due to their net design, the figures are a little more swingy, but let's assume a fair d20 here. With AC it's even less worth it, with I think the highest available AC to a WotC written monster being 25. That means that with a +5 modifier to STR or DEX, a +3 PB, and a +2 weapon, they're getting a +10 to hit. They've got around a 25% chance to hit that enemy. Throw in options from a feat and it's possible that a character at level 5 has a 50% chance to hit a CR30 creature. Hopefully, we're beginning to see the core of the problem with minor improvements to weapons in particular. 

For most players then, items with +1,+2, or +3 bonuses just isn't where they find the most reliable improvements to the ability to hit or the damage they can deal. So it may be that the player in question just fails to see a couple of additional points onto the 'to hit' as worth all the bother. 

As always its worth sitting down with the player and having a chat. Does the scaling really seem pointless? Or do they prefer to focus on the stats they can control? Do they not enjoy the math of it all? 

My solution tends to be a quick and dirty doubling of PB if I want a weapon or gear to scale. It allows a more significant bonus for weapons in particular to double the PB with just that weapon's 'to hit' and 'damage' numbers.

Other options for upgrading existing items:

• a dead NPC's soul becomes trapped in it. Voila, instant sentient weapon with some extra properties, depending on who the NPC was
• the old 'it was a powerful relic all along, you just needed to take it to the right place / kill the right monster with it to unlock its true power' trope
• a boon from a powerful entity gives the favorite weapon the ability to absorb the magic from other weapons. Then when the party finds one nobody wants to use, it can just get hoovered up. Of course, there might be consequences to absorbing too much magic into the old fave...