Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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"So the goal of a "good" DM shouldn't always be to entirely "fair", but to be willing to listen and to adapt, "
Yeah, the last bit of my original post says: "Some people enjoy paying money to play blackjack knowing blackjack isnt fair. Try to make your dnd enjoyable."
Fair isnt entirely possible.
And part of being enjoyable is finding a game you want to play, which means dms need to know what kind of game theyre running and communicate that ahead of time so everyone isnt wasting everyones time.
The dm who counted ammunition, didnt mention that until my ranger was three sessions into a dungeon and six session into me joining the campaign.
The dm who started banning random spells didnt mention it until i cast one he didnt like and then he banned a dozen on the spot.
First step to finding a game and dm that you like is finding a dm who knows their own dm style and can communicate it up front, so you can find a good fit for you. If you just ban stuff on the fly all the time, its going to suck for your players.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
First one sounds like miscommunication, don’t see how it could screw everything up. Maybe ask him if you could create your own ammo or scavenge it?
That’s a bad dm, considering most who ban random spells do it as a gut reaction instead of actually having a reason. Forcing them to write a manifesto won’t help if they only react to spells when someone casts them, not when they come up with the campaign.
"First one sounds like miscommunication, don’t see how it could screw everything up. Maybe ask him if you could create your own ammo or scavenge it?"
If it was a miscommunication, it was the dm who failed. And it screwed me over because i had taken wood carvers tool.proficiency(usually do for any archer charavter), but there was little to no usable wood in the dungeons and.caves we were in, according to the dm. Basically, i always had limited ammo, and would use a scimitar more than anything. After 4 sessions of that nonsense, i quit.
"most who ban random spells do it as a gut reaction instead of actually having a reason. Forcing them to write a manifesto won’t help"
Well, first of all, its a brochure, not a manifesto. Second of all, i think it would have helped in this situation because if most dms had brochures, this guy was so seat-of-the-pants on everything, he would have nothing, and that would have been a red flag.
Certainly ive had dms where a brochure wont help because sometimes people suck and they dont even know it. I was in a party where the DM's girlfriend was also in the party. Eesh. Every encounter was designed for the girlfriend. The magic items were generally whatever the girlfriend wanted at the time. All the npcs talked to the girlfriend. The things we explored were things the girlfriend was interested in. That was probably 3 months wasted before j gave up. Now, whenever i meet a new group i generally ask how everyone knows everyone else, just to look for any interrelationships that might make thinks wonky.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
This is exactly what I've been saying. I've literally mentioned that it the whole point of Session 0 is to make sure everyone understands what is going to happen in the game. And then I said that being unwilling to communicate and resolve is what marks a "bad" DM. I'm not disagreeing that those DMs messed up, but you yourself are now saying that it was because they didn't communicate with you.
He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones. Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
"You see a gigantic, monstrous praying mantis burst from out of the ground. It sprays a stream of acid from it's mouth at one soldier, dissolving him instantly, then it turns and chomps another soldier in half with it's- "
"When are we gonna take a snack break?"
Why did it take you 3 months to realize the DM was favouring their girlfriend? That's usually something people can pick up in the couple of sessions, or even in the pre-game interview. If you ask the DM about the party and they talk at length about one character and not at all about the others, that's a red flag. If the DM doesn't seem interested in helping you make your character or how you fit into the game, that's a red flag. If the DM spend hours and hours telling you a list of rules, that's a red flag. If the DM doesn't seem interested in you as a human being - what your past history with D&D is, what your availability is, what do you or why you are interested in their game, that's a red flag.
Seems to me you really need to get better at reading other people. Nothing you do or say on the internet or in real life will do anything to reduce the number of jerks in the world. Your only hope is to get better at spotting them.
I dont know what we're disagreeing about, so...
Did i say something different earlier?
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
No im not bad at reading people. It would be three sessions of fairly normal gaming, and then we got to town and the npcs all want to talk to the girlfriend. Then two or three sessions of normal gaming and we'd kill a monster and the treasure was a magic item that can only be attuned by the girlfriends charavter class. It would be mostly balanced and then something would throw it off for a moment, but id let it slide. No dm is perfect, including me.
At some point, the party walked through some castle that mimmicked something the girlfriend had built in an entirely different campaign, we spent the entire session listening to her and the dm reminisce about something no one else in the party knew anything about or had any reason to be interested in. There was nothing for anyone else in the party to do the entire session and thats when i found a new group.
When i spoke with the dm before joining, they talked about the campaign, the world, what the party would be facing, how easy/hard it would be to get magic items, what class might be a good fit for the party, all standard, normal stuff. No mention of the girlfriend was even made during those conversations, other thsn maybe when they listed the existing players and what class they were running.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
So it was 3 months of 80% good fun sessions and 1-2 bad ones. How is that 3 months wasted?
"So it was 3 months of 80% good fun sessions"
When i complained about a bad dm, you first tried to blame me saying i should have noticed the problem at session zero. When i told you session zero was fairly normal and listed some of the problems during the campaign, glossing over a lot of details, you then try to convince me that actually i had 80% good fun.
I was very clear that this dm sucked. Dont tell me i had a good time. Thats a textbook case of gaslighting.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
The DM was apparently good enough that it took you three months to decide the game wasn't for you.
Yeah, thanks for gaslighting me about how i really feel again.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
When players complain about a bad dm, the first question is always "did you talk with the dm?" But not every dm is willing to accept criticism, and is therefore never going to improve.
Some dms are so opposed to any criticism that they will lash out at any player criticizing any other dm, even a dm they know nothing about, and try to either blame the player or downplay the criticism. These are the dms to avoid as soon as you identify them
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
None of which is relevant to the question of "The meaning of fair in D&D". A DM who is biased towards his GF isn't failing to understand the meaning of fair, he's just not being fair.
You can't fix bad DMs with rules arguments, because them being bad doesn't come from the rules in the first part.
It's not gaslighting to repeat what you yourself said. You said you played this game for 3 months - I'm guessing multiple sessions per month - and it was only here and there that some things bothered you a bit - which BTW is pretty normal for any social interaction - and it wasn't until one particularly bad session that you walked away. So for 3 months you decided this game was worth your time, which is hardly justification for a ginormous rant targeted at all DMs or to say that the entirety of those 3 months were a complete waste of time. No one is saying that DM is perfect, or even good, sound like they are middling to poor. But they are far from the worst out there. I'd argue they don't even sound like a particularly bad person, just a bit oblivious and/or insecure about their girlfriend which quite honestly is pretty normal for most young men in today's society.
If the only game you want to play in is one with an amazing DM, it is going to take you a while to find it. Because typically those DMs already have full games because players love playing with them. That's not to say it's impossible, just keep looking.
I mentioned a bad dm experience i had. You first responded by blaming me saying i should have figured this out in session zero, and then when i gave just a few more details you tried to gaslight me trying to tell me my experience wasnt as bad as i said.
This has nothing to do with the meaning of fair in dnd, and everything to do with your reaction to me criticizing some random dm you dont even know.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
Let's not dilute the meaning of "gaslight." The term describes problematic, abusive behavior and accusing someone of doing it in a forum post just because they disagree with you doesn't come across as earnest, good faith discussion.
You had a few bad DM experiences back-to-back, got frustrated, and wanted to vent. That's understandable. Based on your responses it doesn't super feel like you wanted feedback. I almost think you would have been more satisfied making this a blog post than as a forum post. I say this because folks have offered some reasonable observations, like how a good session zero could help prevent some of the issues you ran into, or how you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying a campaign was both mostly good but also a complete waste of time. But you're putting more effort into being defensive than talking about fairness in D&D.
For my part, your experiences highlight how "fair" isn't one-size-fits-all. I've seen some DMs have house rules making it harder to cast spells that revive dead characters. While I don't agree with that approach overall, what makes it "fair" is the DM establishing that in session zero and making sure all the players are on board. Same thing goes for tracking ammunition and rations. Each group building a communal understanding of what "fair" means for them and their game also extends to interpersonal interactions and agreeing in advance what to do when something isn't working or the group isn't vibing for some reason. For someone demanding these DMs communicate with you in your proscribed manner, it's telling that you don't mention you trying to pull the DM who committed the sin of having a girlfriend aside to have a one-on-one discussion about your feelings. From what you describe it sounds like you bailed on that DM and the other players.
Bad DMs fetishize killing characters, forcing TPKs, and stifling player agency. Limiting choices, classes, multiclassing, races, magic items, and overall creativity goes against the very spirit of the game. The true ethos of Dungeons & Dragons is simple: a group of like-minded friends sitting around a table having a fun adventure. The DM is the ringmaster, but they are no more or less important than anyone else. Everyone at the table is a player.
A good DM tunes combat to make the party sweat and clench up a little, but in all likelihood, the players should win. If an encounter ends up overtuned, a good DM knows how to adjust behind the screen—having a creature conveniently miss, or moving a monster on to the next target when a character goes down. This nonsense about constantly making players reroll characters is silly.
I am equally dismayed by the "Critical Role" style of heavy roleplay where the actual rules no longer matter. A great DM follows Rules As Written (RAW) about 90% of the time, leaving just enough room for player creativity and well-balanced homebrew that enhances the fun.
To be clear, by "90% RAW," I mean strictly adhering to combat and spell mechanics—not stupidly counting arrows.
If your DM isn't striking this balance and fostering this kind of environment, find a new DM.
Bad DMs are DMs who produce unfun games. And a DM can be bad for one person and not bad for another. I probably wouldn't want to play a survival horror D&D game where the average lifespan of a PC is three sessions and your best weapon is a pointed stick (and D&D is probably not the best game system for a game like that) but if the players are into it, the DM isn't wrong.
This is not exactly true. In the case of zombies or movie zombies they pile on to creatures already being attacked because they are easier targets. You can find this behavior in animals and insects as well. Although I think with insects it is a pheromone thing.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Keeping track of your resources is a player responsibility. While a GM can track and remind you about your arrows, your rations, your spells slots, your hps, It's your responsibility to keep an eye on it as a player. Assuming that your 20 arrows suddenly became unlimited is a mistake on your part.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale