I'm playing an Eldritch Knight now, who just reached level five, so this thread is close to my heart. Lots of good replies here on how Booming Blade (and Green-Flame Blade) aren't actually excessively powerful.
I never understood GFB and Booming for classes that get Extra Attack. Your forgoing another hit for a chance at a different damage type. Honestly I feel they are a bit overrated.
Although not overwhelmingly powerful, they are cases for them.
1. At levels 3-4 (which can be weeks of play!) GFB's extra 1-3 points of damage output when fighting multiple opponents is not negligible. Then at level 5, depending on your stats, an extra 2d8+INTmod might be better than 1d8+STRmod.
2. If you don't have a magic weapon (admittedly rare by level 5) against a resistant creature, or are fighting a creature vulnerable to fire, that makes GFB's flame type more appealing.
3. Although it is highly situational, sometimes you're trying hard to defeat a creature or creatures that want to flee from you; having Booming Blade to nail them down is nice.
4. There are only so many cantrips with combat applications, and very few offer benefits that are better for a fighter than using weapon attacks (except, also, situationally). Choosing spells "optimally" always involves some guessing about the kind of situations you'll run into.
5. Flaming swords are cool. D&D is not a perfectly balanced game and lots of people prefer to do something cool or interesting over something optimal.
Remember that an Eldritch Knight can trade a spell out with each level. So if their situation changes as they get different weapons or feats or magic items, or the party composition changes, or they just don't find them cool anymore, they can consider moving these spells in and out of rotation.
In the case of my table, it's an Arcane Trickster rogue who generally has advantage on his one attack anyway, so the upside of BB almost always outweighs the downside of losing out on two-weapon fighting. But he was counterspelled one time, much to his dismay :)
Remember that an Eldritch Knight can trade a spell out with each level.
You can't trade out cantrips. You learn what you learn, and you've got it for life.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
booming blade is not really compatible with stealth.
Always bothers me when parties are super loud in dungeons and it doesn't have any consequences. Like, for heck's sake, we've casted Shatter twice in that battle, nobody heard it next door? lol
Remember that an Eldritch Knight can trade a spell out with each level.
You can't trade out cantrips. You learn what you learn, and you've got it for life.
Oh my, I wonder if I've read this wrong?
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell
I took this as meaning you could trade for an abjuration/evocation cantrip, but I totally see how "a level for which you have spell slots" could imply level 1+, rather than implying "you can't take spells you don't have slots for yet, to build up your list of high-level spells in advance."
Do you know if this is explicitly clarified anywhere? I suspect you're correct, but I'd like to be sure.
If I'm not mistaken, the portion that you quoted came from the section with the heading "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher" or something close to it. The Cantrips section tells you how many you can start with at third level and when you can learn additional ones, but doesn't mention swapping them out. Therefore, the only mechanic available for swapping cantrips is DM fiat.
Remember that an Eldritch Knight can trade a spell out with each level.
You can't trade out cantrips. You learn what you learn, and you've got it for life.
Oh my, I wonder if I've read this wrong?
Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell
I took this as meaning you could trade for an abjuration/evocation cantrip, but I totally see how "a level for which you have spell slots" could imply level 1+, rather than implying "you can't take spells you don't have slots for yet, to build up your list of high-level spells in advance."
Do you know if this is explicitly clarified anywhere? I suspect you're correct, but I'd like to be sure.
As Jhffan mentioned, that quote is literally from the "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher" section on Eldritch Knight.
Level 1+ spells can be replaced/prepared because they are transcribed in your spell book. Cantrips are magical effects that you have performed so long/frequently that you have actually memorized it.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Level 1+ spells can be replaced/prepared because they are transcribed in your spell book. Cantrips are magical effects that you have performed so long/frequently that you have actually memorized it.
An Eldritch Knight doesn't have a spellbook though, they function like a sorcerer, except they key off of Intelligence. They study few spells that they're then able to cast over and over, but don't have the Wizard's ability to switch. And the section on Spellcasting from the Eldritch Knight subclass actually say "you learn your spells through study and memorization".
This being said, by RAW, you indeed can't change your cantrip. See with your DM if you wish to do so on a level up, and I see no reason for them to say no though.
Level 1+ spells can be replaced/prepared because they are transcribed in your spell book. Cantrips are magical effects that you have performed so long/frequently that you have actually memorized it.
An Eldritch Knight doesn't have a spellbook though, they function like a sorcerer, except they key off of Intelligence. They study few spells that they're then able to cast over and over, but don't have the Wizard's ability to switch. And the section on Spellcasting from the Eldritch Knight subclass actually say "you learn your spells through study and memorization".
This being said, by RAW, you indeed can't change your cantrip. See with your DM if you wish to do so on a level up, and I see no reason for them to say no though.
It's a semantic distinction only, not a gameplay distinction. Cantrips are something you don't even need to think about to accomplish. Using them is like breathing. A leveled spell is on a completely different scale of complexity.
Think about it like memorizing theorems of mathematics. I've memorized how to perform basic addition, and how to integrate a complex polynomial or trigonometric function.
Solving 2+2=? is instantaneous while solving (1) ∫ (0) sin(x)dx = ? (which is a simple example) is going to take a second while I process the exact steps needed to arrive at a solution.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't think this analogy is really accurate, because it doesn't really explain why cantrips are so hard to learn then, requiring the EK a full 7 levels before learning even just a 3rd one.
My main point was that the EK doesn't have a spellbook though, which can sometimes make a mechanical difference.
I don't think this analogy is really accurate, because it doesn't really explain why cantrips are so hard to learn then, requiring the EK a full 7 levels before learning even just a 3rd one.
My main point was that the EK doesn't have a spellbook though, which can sometimes make a mechanical difference.
1) How many years did you have to practice before you had every aspect of basic arithmetic memorized to the extent that you didn't even need to think about it?
2) Wizards are literally the only spellcasters in the game that utilize a spellbook. Moreover, the spellbook is not what a Wizard casts from. It's just a book that the Wizard has transcribed their notes into on how to cast the spells that they know. It's your college textbook. Mechanically, a spellbook has zero effect on the spellcasting process. EKs not using one doesn't mean anything.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
1) How many years did you have to practice before you had every aspect of basic arithmetic memorized to the extent that you didn't even need to think about it?
I mean, from 3rd level to 10th level, an Eldrith Knight will learn 4 spells, some of second level, and only one cantrip. Are you saying your were still memorizing basic arithmetic while calculating integrals ?
2) Wizards are literally the only spellcasters in the game that utilize a spellbook. Moreover, the spellbook is not what a Wizard casts from. It's just a book that the Wizard has transcribed their notes into on how to cast the spells that they know. It's your college textbook. Mechanically, a spellbook has zero effect on the spellcasting process. EKs not using one doesn't mean anything.
Level 1+ spells can be replaced/prepared because they are transcribed in your spell book.
And I just wanted to rectify that, because EK don't have spellbooks. That's it. I didn't mean to make any point related to this, or infer anything about how spellcasting works, it was really just meant as a rectification.
1) How many years did you have to practice before you had every aspect of basic arithmetic memorized to the extent that you didn't even need to think about it?
I mean, from 3rd level to 10th level, an Eldrith Knight will learn 4 spells, some of second level, and only one cantrip. Are you saying your were still memorizing basic arithmetic while calculating integrals ?
No, of course not, but you have to have mastery over the basics before you can even attempt something more complex. I might as well say cantrips are like the English alphabet, and leveled spells are a dialect of ancient Sumerian. There is a massive disparity in the relative complexity.
As far as not learning many spells... well, tough? An Eldritch Knight is still a Fighter. A fully-devoted Wizard does not achieve the same level of mastery with a single level 1 & a single level 2 spell until level 18.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
1) How many years did you have to practice before you had every aspect of basic arithmetic memorized to the extent that you didn't even need to think about it?
I mean, from 3rd level to 10th level, an Eldrith Knight will learn 4 spells, some of second level, and only one cantrip. Are you saying your were still memorizing basic arithmetic while calculating integrals ?
No, of course not, but you have to have mastery over the basics before you can even attempt something more complex. I might as well say cantrips are like the English alphabet, and leveled spells are a dialect of ancient Sumerian. There is a massive disparity in the relative complexity.
As far as not learning many spells... well, tough? An Eldritch Knight is still a Fighter. A fully-devoted Wizard does not achieve the same level of mastery with a single level 1 & a single level 2 spell until level 18.
Oh I'm not complaining at all about the EK's speed of learning spells, I'm just saying I don't really agree with the analogy, and I'm just pointing out that an EK learns regular spells a lot faster (actually, 4 times as fast) than he learns cantrip, and some of these spells are 2nd level, so that's not nothing. And actually, over his whole career, he'll be able to learn a lot more spells, but he won't be able to learn any more cantrips.
It's not something I'm able to make sense of, but saying "cantrips are just basic things you really master" is weird to me, because every class that casts has a very poor cantrip learning speed. They're usually done by 10th level, and they're then unable to learn any more. So I don't really see how we can equate that to "it's basic arithmetic", or "it's the english alphabet", if it's so hard to learn a new one ?
But really, I don't have anything better to offer, and as I said, I can't make sense of it.
I get what you're saying, and I think I see the issue you're having a disconnect with.
It's not that a cantrip is like "basic math"/"english alphabet" because it is easy. Those things aren't easy to master either; they just take a lot of time to completely master front to back, and they are comparatively easier to do than leveled spells. Mastering another cantrip is like mastering a completely different alphabet.
And that's the thing about cantrips in a nutshell: you're not just learning the cantrip; you are mastering it. You are training to become so skilled in producing a specific magic effect that you can do it without spending any resources to do so. It's not surprising to me that characters don't pick up many cantrips naturally in a single class, but there are plenty of ways to gain new ones.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You all do realize that... if you're a fighter, you can cast booming blade FIRST.... and then do action surge.... The duration is the ROUND. Not the turn. Not that attack. The round. So casting it first would do this.
1. Gives you booming blade on your attack action on the action surge. No
2. Gives your reactionary attacks booming blade as well. No
3. eldritch knight's bonus attack happens with all of this and gets booming blade as well. No
thats RAW at least. No, it's not
Sure its only one go at it per battle til higher levels then its two goes with it per battle.
Strong? Sure... over powered? Does anyone look at wizard / cleric / druid spells / abilities and what they can do? It gives fighters a much needed little pop up in burst damage to keep up with paladins and rogues sorta id say.
Not to mention the use of this with rogues is strong, though green flame blade is strong as well with this and not to mention an arcane trickster taking shadow blade with it.... which i would still say is stronger than the fighter using it in the way mentioned above.
No, this is entirely incorrect. Booming Blade is a singular attack spell, not an ongoing effect or "buff" like Haste.
The duration of Booming Blade explicitly refers to only how long the secondary effect stays active on the target that was hit before the ongoing effect ends. It does not mean that the effects of BB apply to every attack you make during that round.
You cast the spell as your entire action. Whether you hit the target or not is irrelevant: the spell has been cast, your action has been consumed. If you use action surge, you can use your entire action granted by that ability to cast Booming Bladeone more time.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I have a player who uses booming blade. The question that has come is how we define the move trigger. If the target of the spell stayed in the same spot and attacked would that trigger the spell? Does it have to leave its square for the spell to trigger?
I have a player who uses booming blade. The question that has come is how we define the move trigger. If the target of the spell stayed in the same spot and attacked would that trigger the spell? Does it have to leave its square for the spell to trigger?
The creature has to willingly move to trigger the extra damage. Any movement within the 5 ft square would not be enough to trigger it, so movement to attack, as part of a dexterity save, or any other action that would not result in moving the creature's token or miniature being moved from its square on a map would not trigger the extra damage. Think of the sheathing aspect of the spell as if it were a shock collar and the 5 ft square (or whatever space the creature takes up) as the fenced in yard.
Again, I posted that link as a reference and in the hopes of not splitting or repeating the conversation from the other thread.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm playing an Eldritch Knight now, who just reached level five, so this thread is close to my heart. Lots of good replies here on how Booming Blade (and Green-Flame Blade) aren't actually excessively powerful.
Although not overwhelmingly powerful, they are cases for them.
1. At levels 3-4 (which can be weeks of play!) GFB's extra 1-3 points of damage output when fighting multiple opponents is not negligible. Then at level 5, depending on your stats, an extra 2d8+INTmod might be better than 1d8+STRmod.
2. If you don't have a magic weapon (admittedly rare by level 5) against a resistant creature, or are fighting a creature vulnerable to fire, that makes GFB's flame type more appealing.
3. Although it is highly situational, sometimes you're trying hard to defeat a creature or creatures that want to flee from you; having Booming Blade to nail them down is nice.
4. There are only so many cantrips with combat applications, and very few offer benefits that are better for a fighter than using weapon attacks (except, also, situationally). Choosing spells "optimally" always involves some guessing about the kind of situations you'll run into.
5. Flaming swords are cool. D&D is not a perfectly balanced game and lots of people prefer to do something cool or interesting over something optimal.
Remember that an Eldritch Knight can trade a spell out with each level. So if their situation changes as they get different weapons or feats or magic items, or the party composition changes, or they just don't find them cool anymore, they can consider moving these spells in and out of rotation.
In the case of my table, it's an Arcane Trickster rogue who generally has advantage on his one attack anyway, so the upside of BB almost always outweighs the downside of losing out on two-weapon fighting. But he was counterspelled one time, much to his dismay :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You can't trade out cantrips. You learn what you learn, and you've got it for life.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Always bothers me when parties are super loud in dungeons and it doesn't have any consequences. Like, for heck's sake, we've casted Shatter twice in that battle, nobody heard it next door? lol
Let chaos rain... uh, reign!
Oh my, I wonder if I've read this wrong?
I took this as meaning you could trade for an abjuration/evocation cantrip, but I totally see how "a level for which you have spell slots" could imply level 1+, rather than implying "you can't take spells you don't have slots for yet, to build up your list of high-level spells in advance."
Do you know if this is explicitly clarified anywhere? I suspect you're correct, but I'd like to be sure.
If I'm not mistaken, the portion that you quoted came from the section with the heading "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher" or something close to it. The Cantrips section tells you how many you can start with at third level and when you can learn additional ones, but doesn't mention swapping them out. Therefore, the only mechanic available for swapping cantrips is DM fiat.
As Jhffan mentioned, that quote is literally from the "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher" section on Eldritch Knight.
Level 1+ spells can be replaced/prepared because they are transcribed in your spell book. Cantrips are magical effects that you have performed so long/frequently that you have actually memorized it.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
An Eldritch Knight doesn't have a spellbook though, they function like a sorcerer, except they key off of Intelligence. They study few spells that they're then able to cast over and over, but don't have the Wizard's ability to switch. And the section on Spellcasting from the Eldritch Knight subclass actually say "you learn your spells through study and memorization".
This being said, by RAW, you indeed can't change your cantrip. See with your DM if you wish to do so on a level up, and I see no reason for them to say no though.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
It's a semantic distinction only, not a gameplay distinction. Cantrips are something you don't even need to think about to accomplish. Using them is like breathing. A leveled spell is on a completely different scale of complexity.
Think about it like memorizing theorems of mathematics. I've memorized how to perform basic addition, and how to integrate a complex polynomial or trigonometric function.
Solving 2+2=? is instantaneous while solving (1) ∫ (0) sin(x)dx = ? (which is a simple example) is going to take a second while I process the exact steps needed to arrive at a solution.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't think this analogy is really accurate, because it doesn't really explain why cantrips are so hard to learn then, requiring the EK a full 7 levels before learning even just a 3rd one.
My main point was that the EK doesn't have a spellbook though, which can sometimes make a mechanical difference.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
1) How many years did you have to practice before you had every aspect of basic arithmetic memorized to the extent that you didn't even need to think about it?
2) Wizards are literally the only spellcasters in the game that utilize a spellbook. Moreover, the spellbook is not what a Wizard casts from. It's just a book that the Wizard has transcribed their notes into on how to cast the spells that they know. It's your college textbook. Mechanically, a spellbook has zero effect on the spellcasting process. EKs not using one doesn't mean anything.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I mean, from 3rd level to 10th level, an Eldrith Knight will learn 4 spells, some of second level, and only one cantrip. Are you saying your were still memorizing basic arithmetic while calculating integrals ?
I know. You said:
And I just wanted to rectify that, because EK don't have spellbooks. That's it. I didn't mean to make any point related to this, or infer anything about how spellcasting works, it was really just meant as a rectification.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
No, of course not, but you have to have mastery over the basics before you can even attempt something more complex. I might as well say cantrips are like the English alphabet, and leveled spells are a dialect of ancient Sumerian. There is a massive disparity in the relative complexity.
As far as not learning many spells... well, tough? An Eldritch Knight is still a Fighter. A fully-devoted Wizard does not achieve the same level of mastery with a single level 1 & a single level 2 spell until level 18.
Okay. Sorry if I'm coming across as a grouch.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oh I'm not complaining at all about the EK's speed of learning spells, I'm just saying I don't really agree with the analogy, and I'm just pointing out that an EK learns regular spells a lot faster (actually, 4 times as fast) than he learns cantrip, and some of these spells are 2nd level, so that's not nothing. And actually, over his whole career, he'll be able to learn a lot more spells, but he won't be able to learn any more cantrips.
It's not something I'm able to make sense of, but saying "cantrips are just basic things you really master" is weird to me, because every class that casts has a very poor cantrip learning speed. They're usually done by 10th level, and they're then unable to learn any more. So I don't really see how we can equate that to "it's basic arithmetic", or "it's the english alphabet", if it's so hard to learn a new one ?
But really, I don't have anything better to offer, and as I said, I can't make sense of it.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
I get what you're saying, and I think I see the issue you're having a disconnect with.
It's not that a cantrip is like "basic math"/"english alphabet" because it is easy. Those things aren't easy to master either; they just take a lot of time to completely master front to back, and they are comparatively easier to do than leveled spells. Mastering another cantrip is like mastering a completely different alphabet.
And that's the thing about cantrips in a nutshell: you're not just learning the cantrip; you are mastering it. You are training to become so skilled in producing a specific magic effect that you can do it without spending any resources to do so. It's not surprising to me that characters don't pick up many cantrips naturally in a single class, but there are plenty of ways to gain new ones.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No, this is entirely incorrect. Booming Blade is a singular attack spell, not an ongoing effect or "buff" like Haste.
The duration of Booming Blade explicitly refers to only how long the secondary effect stays active on the target that was hit before the ongoing effect ends. It does not mean that the effects of BB apply to every attack you make during that round.
You cast the spell as your entire action. Whether you hit the target or not is irrelevant: the spell has been cast, your action has been consumed. If you use action surge, you can use your entire action granted by that ability to cast Booming Blade one more time.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I have a player who uses booming blade. The question that has come is how we define the move trigger. If the target of the spell stayed in the same spot and attacked would that trigger the spell? Does it have to leave its square for the spell to trigger?
The creature has to willingly move to trigger the extra damage. Any movement within the 5 ft square would not be enough to trigger it, so movement to attack, as part of a dexterity save, or any other action that would not result in moving the creature's token or miniature being moved from its square on a map would not trigger the extra damage. Think of the sheathing aspect of the spell as if it were a shock collar and the 5 ft square (or whatever space the creature takes up) as the fenced in yard.
Awesome!, Thank you!