I find this a bit odd since in two years of playing D&D, an actual surprise round has happened maybe only 2 or 3 times.
"Surprise" is not common in this version of D&D (at least with the DMs I have played with). It generally requires the characters falling into a staged ambush in which the attackers will have a combat round to attack in which the surprised creatures will not get a reaction until their initiative and will not get a turn until the second time their initiative comes up. However, this requires the players to not notice any signs of the ambush based on their passive perception and the stealth of the attackers. All it usually takes is for one of the defenders to notice something, yell and the element of surprise is lost.
A weapon of warning simply does the same thing as noticing an ambush and planned ambushes shouldn't be that common. In addition, the weapon of warning gives you advantage on initiative, warns when you are in danger, and prevents you and your team mates within 30' of being surprised at the beginning of combat.
Your players can still be surprised by combat without having to suffer a surprise round. In addition, the weapon only warns if they are in danger. It doesn't identify the danger, it doesn't locate the danger, it doesn't indicate how dangerous something is.
Some examples:
- exploring an underground temple that has an airborne disease or poison - the mace is warning of danger ALL the time :) - makes it hard to notice when something more dangerous comes along
- encounter a group of bandits that want your treasure - mace doesn't give you any warning since you aren't in danger until you refuse to hand over the loot but by the time it warns you it is probably too late and you thought these bandits were friendly
- traveling a darkened road at night - mace of warning goes off but nothing shows up - After a few "false" alarms the characters will wonder if it is working though the werewolf that was stalking them just decided they weren't worth the effort
The weapon isn't a big deal and you can still "surprise" the characters in terms of unexpected events. However, mechanically, party members within 30' of the weapon can't be surprised in game terms which means that they don't suffer from a surprise round which, to be honest, I can't imagine any player actually wanting.
The weapon isn't a big deal and you can still "surprise" the characters in terms of unexpected events. However, mechanically, party members within 30' of the weapon can't be surprised in game terms which means that they don't suffer from a surprise round which, to be honest, I can't imagine any player actually wanting.
The Mace of Warning would make it so that all players within 30 feet of it can't be suprised by monsters. Why would your players not want that?
I have run 5 games in the past 3 years and all but one of them had a player who took a feat, spell, ability, or whatever, to mitigate or negate the ability for surprise to happen.
Take away the mace, they can grab the Aleart feat, Alarm spell, Find Familiar, or Eagle Totem, just to name a few tools that can mitigate surprise.
While the points about 5e Players not being surprised much in regular play, and thus it being unlikely that the Mace will be that disruptive to the game, are completely valid - I think the larger discussion has become how to "walk back" an overpowered item that the DM gave to the Party because it sounded cool, without thinking through the ramifications.
A good lesson here: never give the villains items you absolutely don't want the Party to have.
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Set up an ambush (yeah, they'll see it coming) by powerful opponents who want to steal something valuable. Have one of them be a Battle Master or something who can disarm the person with the mace, then take it. Then the ambushers flee (Dust of Disappearing, one of them can cast Teleport or Dimension Door, etc.).
Weapon of Warning: This magic weapon warns you of danger. While the weapon is on your person, you have Adv on initiative rolls. In addition, you and any of your companions within 30 ft of you can’t be surprised, except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagical sleep. The weapon magically awakens you and your companions within range if any of you are sleeping naturally when combat begins.
The way I see it 'Warning' weapons only give you an immediate alert right when combat happens. So, an ambush can be prepared. It doesn't alert the PC's in advance. It's not like enemy radar. They are still ambushed. It's like having insight right as you get attacked. You are only alerted right when the combat starts. So, what's the actual problem. They don't get precognition that something is going to happen in a few minutes. They get alerted right when they are attacked. The ability only prevents the surprise round and only has an effect "when combat begins". That's how I interpret it anyway.
All it does it warn you of danger, it doesn't give specifics. This could provide some fun 'spidey sense tingling' moments where the mace issues the warning, but then nothing happens and they don't see anything. Instead of trying to surprise them, go for a more tense vibe. Maybe they are being followed by someone who knows to stay out of the range, but every so often gets too close? Maybe they are being haunted by an ethereal being they cannot see or hear, but the mace is warning them about?
If you want to go a bit silly you can make the mace be super extra vigilant. They'd like to sleep, but it goes off at every chipmunk nearby! Anytime they're in a town it's just constantly warning of dangers!
Also you could slowly turn it into a plot device or even a sentient magical item. In some cases I have started to show a curse over time on an item. Some characters do not want to trade off a disadvantage. The Mace of Warning could be cursed they just don't know it yet. I would be careful in just trying to take it away. After all, you gave it to them. I have done it time and time again. I curse a lot of my items now and sometimes the reason that NPC is in his position is because of an item he/she might have. A ring that deals damage to the wearer to add the +2 to hit bonus for example. I prefer a drawback on all magic items that I would prefer to keep out of PC hands. I have this effect pass onto the NPC or Creature that might be using it.
Also you could slowly turn it into a plot device or even a sentient magical item. In some cases I have started to show a curse over time on an item. Some characters do not want to trade off a disadvantage. The Mace of Warning could be cursed they just don't know it yet. I would be careful in just trying to take it away. After all, you gave it to them. I have done it time and time again. I curse a lot of my items now and sometimes the reason that NPC is in his position is because of an item he/she might have. A ring that deals damage to the wearer to add the +2 to hit bonus for example. I prefer a drawback on all magic items that I would prefer to keep out of PC hands. I have this effect pass onto the NPC or Creature that might be using it.
You could have the mace start pinging during rests(maybe due to dangers nearby but not directed at the party, wolves out hunting ect), maybe roll a percentile and have a low trigger rate.
How about you make it super vague about warning ie. PC: *wakes up* Mace of Warning: They might be some quarrel today" Later that day: *rock falls on other rock* then they'll never want to use it.
Thank you, everyone, for all of your ideas and feedback! I never expected for this thread to get as much traction as it did.
I think I now have a few ideas of how to remove the item in a way that would narratively make sense and drive the party forward towards the character(s) involved instead of me, the DM.
For now, I'm going to play it by ear and see if the Mace of Warning will continue to be something that my players view as a hindrance to play.
Mechanical this item isn't meant to tell the PC any and every time there is about to be an initiative roll.
Surprised is a very specific condition in 5e that I don't think a lot of people use RAW
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone Hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the Combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other Members aren’t."
It doesn't mean you have to tell the party every time there is a monster about to attack, it just means they can lose their first turn due to this condition
You put an item in the world, the party overcame a challenge, and now they have the item. This is how the game should work. Destroying the item, stealing it, confiscating it or any other possible outcome is going to feel really bad to the party. For the best result, I advise adapting the game and working around the item to produce challenges, rather than taking it away.
One option you have is to enable the buying and selling of magical items, and include 2 items that the party would want and allow them to trade the mace for those items (maybe with a little gold expenditure as well). You could also talk to the player who has the mace ahead of time and explain that you feel you made an error with the mace of warning, and would the player be happy with a different weapon. If you don't like magic item shops, you could bring in a cleric whose god only allows the use of maces, who on his adventures has found a +1 shield and a +1 quarterstaff, and would be willing to trade both for a mace he can use.
Honestly though, Surprise isn't a big mechanic (and it's a clunky one at that). I'd say to just leave it and accept that the party can't face surprise rounds. The mace doesn't warn them of the presence of creatures of hostile intentions, it just enables the party to avoid surprise.
Edit: just noticed that this thread was resolved in May 2019. D'oh.
I had that same exact issue with a Ring of obscuring. My player took the devil sight invocation so he could be so he could trigger the ring, but see fine. I just had a shop keeper buy it for stupid amount of money when they were broke buying potions. They got their gold and I got rid of a nuisance item.
Talk to the player about it, once a dm give me a powerful home brew staff that created problems in the game. We decided to make trade. Player will still have a usable magic item and problem item is remove. Just need to role play it out in game
My first tip is to communicate! You don't need to be secretive to your players about it. Talk to your kensei monk player and tell them that the mace is causing a problem for you and the other players at the table. Perhaps offer to allow them to swap it for a +1 mace (which is equally valuable). If you're open about the issue, you won't come across as an a**hole.
If your monk is too attached to the mace to be torn away from it, I would like to suggest a potential modification that I made to a weapon of warning in my game. Instead of offering immunity to surprise, it grants a +5 bonus to all WIS (perception) checks made to spot monsters traps, or other dangerous terrain, both active and passive. This is about as powerful, but won't render surprise impossible.
I hope this post helps you work out the issue with your friends. Be sure to let me know how it turned out!
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Perhaps a powerful NPC has some interest in the mace. They might offer to buy or trade for it, and if rebuffed hire thieves or send an invisble stalker. Or escalate in a whole side plot.....
Rust monsters gotta eat, too, ya know....or other critters/villains may destroy it...beholder, dragon breath, fiend, wild magic surge
If the players miss being surprised couldn't you just replace it with another weapon? Sounds like this is a good situation to just hand wave it.
I find this a bit odd since in two years of playing D&D, an actual surprise round has happened maybe only 2 or 3 times.
"Surprise" is not common in this version of D&D (at least with the DMs I have played with). It generally requires the characters falling into a staged ambush in which the attackers will have a combat round to attack in which the surprised creatures will not get a reaction until their initiative and will not get a turn until the second time their initiative comes up. However, this requires the players to not notice any signs of the ambush based on their passive perception and the stealth of the attackers. All it usually takes is for one of the defenders to notice something, yell and the element of surprise is lost.
A weapon of warning simply does the same thing as noticing an ambush and planned ambushes shouldn't be that common. In addition, the weapon of warning gives you advantage on initiative, warns when you are in danger, and prevents you and your team mates within 30' of being surprised at the beginning of combat.
Your players can still be surprised by combat without having to suffer a surprise round. In addition, the weapon only warns if they are in danger. It doesn't identify the danger, it doesn't locate the danger, it doesn't indicate how dangerous something is.
Some examples:
- exploring an underground temple that has an airborne disease or poison - the mace is warning of danger ALL the time :) - makes it hard to notice when something more dangerous comes along
- encounter a group of bandits that want your treasure - mace doesn't give you any warning since you aren't in danger until you refuse to hand over the loot but by the time it warns you it is probably too late and you thought these bandits were friendly
- traveling a darkened road at night - mace of warning goes off but nothing shows up - After a few "false" alarms the characters will wonder if it is working though the werewolf that was stalking them just decided they weren't worth the effort
The weapon isn't a big deal and you can still "surprise" the characters in terms of unexpected events. However, mechanically, party members within 30' of the weapon can't be surprised in game terms which means that they don't suffer from a surprise round which, to be honest, I can't imagine any player actually wanting.
The Mace of Warning would make it so that all players within 30 feet of it can't be suprised by monsters. Why would your players not want that?
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Surprise is very unlikely.
I have run 5 games in the past 3 years and all but one of them had a player who took a feat, spell, ability, or whatever, to mitigate or negate the ability for surprise to happen.
Take away the mace, they can grab the Aleart feat, Alarm spell, Find Familiar, or Eagle Totem, just to name a few tools that can mitigate surprise.
While the points about 5e Players not being surprised much in regular play, and thus it being unlikely that the Mace will be that disruptive to the game, are completely valid - I think the larger discussion has become how to "walk back" an overpowered item that the DM gave to the Party because it sounded cool, without thinking through the ramifications.
A good lesson here: never give the villains items you absolutely don't want the Party to have.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Set up an ambush (yeah, they'll see it coming) by powerful opponents who want to steal something valuable. Have one of them be a Battle Master or something who can disarm the person with the mace, then take it. Then the ambushers flee (Dust of Disappearing, one of them can cast Teleport or Dimension Door, etc.).
The way I see it 'Warning' weapons only give you an immediate alert right when combat happens. So, an ambush can be prepared. It doesn't alert the PC's in advance. It's not like enemy radar. They are still ambushed. It's like having insight right as you get attacked. You are only alerted right when the combat starts. So, what's the actual problem. They don't get precognition that something is going to happen in a few minutes. They get alerted right when they are attacked. The ability only prevents the surprise round and only has an effect "when combat begins". That's how I interpret it anyway.
All it does it warn you of danger, it doesn't give specifics. This could provide some fun 'spidey sense tingling' moments where the mace issues the warning, but then nothing happens and they don't see anything. Instead of trying to surprise them, go for a more tense vibe. Maybe they are being followed by someone who knows to stay out of the range, but every so often gets too close? Maybe they are being haunted by an ethereal being they cannot see or hear, but the mace is warning them about?
If you want to go a bit silly you can make the mace be super extra vigilant. They'd like to sleep, but it goes off at every chipmunk nearby! Anytime they're in a town it's just constantly warning of dangers!
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Also you could slowly turn it into a plot device or even a sentient magical item. In some cases I have started to show a curse over time on an item. Some characters do not want to trade off a disadvantage. The Mace of Warning could be cursed they just don't know it yet. I would be careful in just trying to take it away. After all, you gave it to them. I have done it time and time again. I curse a lot of my items now and sometimes the reason that NPC is in his position is because of an item he/she might have. A ring that deals damage to the wearer to add the +2 to hit bonus for example. I prefer a drawback on all magic items that I would prefer to keep out of PC hands. I have this effect pass onto the NPC or Creature that might be using it.
You could have the mace start pinging during rests(maybe due to dangers nearby but not directed at the party, wolves out hunting ect), maybe roll a percentile and have a low trigger rate.
How about you make it super vague about warning ie. PC: *wakes up* Mace of Warning: They might be some quarrel today" Later that day: *rock falls on other rock* then they'll never want to use it.
Thank you, everyone, for all of your ideas and feedback! I never expected for this thread to get as much traction as it did.
I think I now have a few ideas of how to remove the item in a way that would narratively make sense and drive the party forward towards the character(s) involved instead of me, the DM.
For now, I'm going to play it by ear and see if the Mace of Warning will continue to be something that my players view as a hindrance to play.
Thanks again!
There’s a lovely Item in Sunless Citadel named Shatterspike which fixes this whole issue.
This item really shouldn't be a big deal
Mechanical this item isn't meant to tell the PC any and every time there is about to be an initiative roll.
Surprised is a very specific condition in 5e that I don't think a lot of people use RAW
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone Hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the Combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other Members aren’t."
It doesn't mean you have to tell the party every time there is a monster about to attack, it just means they can lose their first turn due to this condition
My advice would be - don't take it away.
You put an item in the world, the party overcame a challenge, and now they have the item. This is how the game should work. Destroying the item, stealing it, confiscating it or any other possible outcome is going to feel really bad to the party. For the best result, I advise adapting the game and working around the item to produce challenges, rather than taking it away.
One option you have is to enable the buying and selling of magical items, and include 2 items that the party would want and allow them to trade the mace for those items (maybe with a little gold expenditure as well). You could also talk to the player who has the mace ahead of time and explain that you feel you made an error with the mace of warning, and would the player be happy with a different weapon. If you don't like magic item shops, you could bring in a cleric whose god only allows the use of maces, who on his adventures has found a +1 shield and a +1 quarterstaff, and would be willing to trade both for a mace he can use.
Honestly though, Surprise isn't a big mechanic (and it's a clunky one at that). I'd say to just leave it and accept that the party can't face surprise rounds. The mace doesn't warn them of the presence of creatures of hostile intentions, it just enables the party to avoid surprise.
Edit: just noticed that this thread was resolved in May 2019. D'oh.
a paranoid lord needs countermeasures and is willing to pay handsomely for anything that adds to his protection :P
I had that same exact issue with a Ring of obscuring. My player took the devil sight invocation so he could be so he could trigger the ring, but see fine. I just had a shop keeper buy it for stupid amount of money when they were broke buying potions. They got their gold and I got rid of a nuisance item.
Talk to the player about it, once a dm give me a powerful home brew staff that created problems in the game. We decided to make trade. Player will still have a usable magic item and problem item is remove. Just need to role play it out in game
My first tip is to communicate! You don't need to be secretive to your players about it. Talk to your kensei monk player and tell them that the mace is causing a problem for you and the other players at the table. Perhaps offer to allow them to swap it for a +1 mace (which is equally valuable). If you're open about the issue, you won't come across as an a**hole.
If your monk is too attached to the mace to be torn away from it, I would like to suggest a potential modification that I made to a weapon of warning in my game. Instead of offering immunity to surprise, it grants a +5 bonus to all WIS (perception) checks made to spot monsters traps, or other dangerous terrain, both active and passive. This is about as powerful, but won't render surprise impossible.
I hope this post helps you work out the issue with your friends. Be sure to let me know how it turned out!
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Perhaps a powerful NPC has some interest in the mace. They might offer to buy or trade for it, and if rebuffed hire thieves or send an invisble stalker. Or escalate in a whole side plot.....
Rust monsters gotta eat, too, ya know....or other critters/villains may destroy it...beholder, dragon breath, fiend, wild magic surge