So, several sessions ago, my players had a chase/encounter with one of the main villains of the campaign. In order for the encounter to play out like I planned, I gave the enemy aMace of Warningso that he'd become aware of the party's presence once one of them drew their weapon and be able to initiate the chase.
Long story short; the party has a Mace of Warning now. This has been both a good and bad thing.
On the one hand: first magic item, yay! The Kensei Monk now has a new weapon! It can act as a device to build tension!
On the other hand: I can't have any surprise encounters. At all. Ever. Which has been mentioned to me by a couple of the players as an aspect of the game that they miss.
The only way around this that I can see is the removal of the item, which I doubt the party would do willingly. Most spells, like Shatter, specify that only nonmagical items would be destroyed.
Is there a way for me to get rid of this thing in a way that makes sense and not have my players hate me? I know, it's a big ask.
Give them enough attunement items that they will decide not to use it. Though if your first surprise attack after they stop using it is bad enough, they'll start using it again.
It doesn't warn you about traps, does it? It doesn't warn you if you are being spied upon?
You can get rid of it using acid, some slimes/oozes/mold, or a powerful creature just reaches out and grabs it and wrestles it away.
My son allowed a party to have a very powerful magic ring they didn't know the nature of. Sound familiar? He decided to have an NPC simply steal it and leave a fake ring behind. It was a nod to a player's backstory, which he later decided not to develop. They didn't throw him off a balcony or anything. You are the DM.
Set up an adventure, where the Party can solve the problem easily by sacrificing the Mace of Warning, or solving the problem and keeping the Mace is much much harder.
This puts the decision for the Party to lose the Mace in the Party's hands - so you don't look like an ******* just taking it back.
However, I wouldn't force that issue too hard. If the Party really really really wants to keep it, let them, accept that, account for it in your adventure designs, and move on. If they went through the blood-sweat-and-tears of solving the adventure the hard way, they've probably earned it.
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An item belonging to a known villain? Sounds like important evidence that the <insert lawful authority> would like to hold and examine in light of the previous crimes committed...
Perhaps a plot point were they must sacrifice a or several magical items to open a door (or portal, or activate magical device, ect) to something else, perhaps important (especially to the person that has the weapon in question)? If they want whatever this allows them to continue towards, then they should be able to willingly give it up without any sour feelings.
Well for my personal experience in the current campaign...
Firbolg ranger finds an awesome magical bow in a dungeon, next to a corpse. Which was an NPC ranger that accompanied the NPC Paladin which has dissappeared. 15 sessions later the group arrives in a town that has a enchanter. Recognizes the bow, since he made it as a gift for the ranger which happened to have been his partner. Then just let it play it out and see what happens. However in this case the bow was not OP or out of place, but just part of a possible story element.
Just outright taking the item away, even if it fits with the dramatic social encounter... players do not like that. If it wasn't for some good play from the Cleric, which convinced the enchanter to make another bow in return as trade (which led to its own set of quests/exploration etc for the needed ingredients and what not)... well if it hadn't turned out like that the players were willing to fight and kill in order to keep the item. Now the new bow is made with the players input.
In your case talk with the player prior to the next session. Tell him about the problem you have. If you can't find an in-game solution see what you can do to come to an agreement with the player to switch the item for something else.
If you really want an ambush, the party could walk into an antimagic zone (maybe a temple or something being specifically protected from magic users because plot). Maybe have the mace give a ping as they enter but immediately go silent, nothing happens immediately but the party is ambushed a bit later.
I'd be careful about re-arranging the world, in ways that don't seem plausible to the players, for DM convenience.
Players have a nose for that sort of thing, and they don't like it.
I realize you said "because plot", and you might get away with that once - but if the plots start featuring anti-magic zones ( or other "oops, your Mace doesn't work because .... reasons .... " zones ) on a regular bases, that had better be one of the central features to the Adventure/Campaign, or the Players are going to smell a rat and call it a "DM screw job" - correctly.
Although an adventure arc featuring a part of the world where magic is breaking down ( why? what's happening? how can the Party stop the calamity?! ), is an interesting idea :)
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If it is making the game less fun for you and your players I would have an out of game discussion with them. Maybe an alternative magic item could be substituted?
Players tend not to like it when their items are just snatched or disabled. If it can be done in world in a way that does not feel like a gotcha or arbitrary nuking of a cool thing it can work, sometimes. But usually better to et the players on board with it first. Especially these days. Back in the old days a certain amount of adversarial relationship, and definite hard mode play was expected, but gaming culture has changed.
Although an adventure arc featuring a part of the world where magic is breaking down ( why? what's happening? how can the Party stop the calamity?! ), is an interesting idea :)
This is something that will be introduced to one of my campaigns, the magic of the world is starting to fail for some unknown reason. It's a great way to take those magical items and have them start to fail, or work in unintended ways.
----
I would also like to point out something that hasn't been said: Let them have their magic item, the bonuses from the weapon aren't that powerful if you look at it from all angles.
In addition, you and any of your companions within 30 ft of you can’t be surprised, except when incapacitated by something other than nonmagicalsleep.
That part (emphasis mine) is very important to making encounters that can work around the mace's properties. Hold person, Charm, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, poisons, and more can be used to great effect.
Surprised is on an individual creature basis, you're not losing very much since an ambush can be easily thwarted by a character with the Alert feat. Sleeping creatures may lose one round, but that depends on initiative and clever play. A loud noise, say from a party member shouting, can wake your friends, maybe one or two of them miss their initiative. Magical sleep, sure a couple players may lose a turn, but with proper play every character will be awake by the end of the first round.
You've given yourself a challenge, as a DM you have every tool necessary to challenge the players, but now you've challenged yourself. Take it and run with it, learn from it. Taking the toy away from the party shorts you on learning how to DM better, and shorts the players on a magical weapon that really isn't any more over powered than an Owl Familiar owned by a Rogue.
The spirit of the dead villain awakens to find itself bound permanently to its former possession. It cannot communicate and it is protected by its Attuned owner's saving throws.
When the Attuned owner tries to sleep at night, s/he must make a WIS saving throw. If the save is made s/he gains to benefits of a short rest. If the save is failed, s/he gets no effects from any kind of rest. The party will soon do away with the item, or at worse, have to go on a quest to lay the spirit of their former villain to rest without destroying the items.
If you are an evil DM, then the item has become cursed by the spirit of its former owner without the benefit of a remove curse who must be of a level at lease 1 level higher than the villain was. :)
Just a few evil ideas.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
If you taketh away, you must giveth. Or some variation of that saying. Anyway, get creative and think about what they can get out of a situation where they give it up.
Maybe they meet someone who really likes (or actually had owned) that weapon. "What do ya want fo' it?" they might ask. Perhaps what they might trade for it will have a more obvious and immediate application to a current problem that they're just like, "**** yeah, let's trade this thing."
Or just cash the one item into multiple, lesser items to spread around the group. Nothing quite like peer pressure.
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I feel like a lot of the answers given don't meet the criteria. I can only think of two general solutions.
1. Negotiate with the players. Pretty self-explanatory, tell them why you have concerns, offer something in exchange out of character, then give an in character narrative for why they give it up.
2. Make them want to give it up. One way is by overloading attunement slots, but that results in its own problems. You could also make them want to give it to an NPC or the like, but if you do, make sure that later on they get an update on how the item helped.
I think a better solution is to work around the item. If they stop posting watches, have someone steal from them as suggested earlier, though the thief should be mindful of how strong the adventurers are and steal something that's likely to not be worth their effort to track down. Additionally, while it makes them immune to surprise, all that means is that they can always act on the first turn of combat, they can still be ambushed by enemies that are in positions that make retaliation difficult.
If they stop posting watches, have someone steal from them as suggested earlier, though the thief should be mindful of how strong the adventurers are and steal something that's likely to not be worth their effort to track down.
The problem with this, is that the Players may think - and in this case, rightfully so - that the thief is only targeting the Party for theft because the DM wants them to. It's what I call a "DM screw job".
If the Party blew into town, and was bragging loudly in the local Tavern about this amazing mace that they have, and how they can't ever be surprised - well, under those conditions I can see them being targeted. Likewise, the Mace was wielded by "one of the main villains of the campaign" - if he survived the encounter ( doesn't seem likely ), or some of his minions know about the mace - then there's a possible justification for someone knowing about, and targeting, the mace for theft.
Just be careful - even if the Party being targeted makes in-world sense, the Party can't get the notion in their heads that the DM is trying to screw them out of legitimate loot - regardless of whether that's a fair evaluation, or not.
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If they stop posting watches, have someone steal from them as suggested earlier, though the thief should be mindful of how strong the adventurers are and steal something that's likely to not be worth their effort to track down.
If the Party blew into town, and was bragging loudly in the local Tavern about this amazing mace that they have, and how they can't ever be surprised - well, under those conditions I can see them being targeted. Likewise, the Mace was wielded by "one of the main villains of the campaign" - if he survived the encounter ( doesn't seem likely ), or some of his minions know about the mace - then there's a possible justification for someone knowing about, and targeting, the mace for theft.
Just be careful - even if the Party being targeted makes in-world sense, the Party can't get the notion in their heads that the DM is trying to screw them out of legitimate loot - regardless of whether that's a fair evaluation, or not.
As I said, a good thief will target something that isn't worth the party's time to track them down, that means definitely not the mace. A healing potion or two, 20% of someone's gold, preferably something that could be sold before the party is able to cast locate object and scour the town. Adventurers tend to be rich and vengeful, a thief should be aware of both factors when choosing their targets.
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So, several sessions ago, my players had a chase/encounter with one of the main villains of the campaign. In order for the encounter to play out like I planned, I gave the enemy a Mace of Warning so that he'd become aware of the party's presence once one of them drew their weapon and be able to initiate the chase.
Long story short; the party has a Mace of Warning now. This has been both a good and bad thing.
On the one hand: first magic item, yay! The Kensei Monk now has a new weapon! It can act as a device to build tension!
On the other hand: I can't have any surprise encounters. At all. Ever. Which has been mentioned to me by a couple of the players as an aspect of the game that they miss.
The only way around this that I can see is the removal of the item, which I doubt the party would do willingly. Most spells, like Shatter, specify that only nonmagical items would be destroyed.
Is there a way for me to get rid of this thing in a way that makes sense and not have my players hate me? I know, it's a big ask.
Thanks in advance!
Give them enough attunement items that they will decide not to use it. Though if your first surprise attack after they stop using it is bad enough, they'll start using it again.
It only wakes you up if someone tries to kill you, not if someone tries to steal it.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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It doesn't warn you about traps, does it? It doesn't warn you if you are being spied upon?
You can get rid of it using acid, some slimes/oozes/mold, or a powerful creature just reaches out and grabs it and wrestles it away.
My son allowed a party to have a very powerful magic ring they didn't know the nature of. Sound familiar? He decided to have an NPC simply steal it and leave a fake ring behind. It was a nod to a player's backstory, which he later decided not to develop. They didn't throw him off a balcony or anything. You are the DM.
Set up an adventure, where the Party can solve the problem easily by sacrificing the Mace of Warning, or solving the problem and keeping the Mace is much much harder.
This puts the decision for the Party to lose the Mace in the Party's hands - so you don't look like an ******* just taking it back.
However, I wouldn't force that issue too hard. If the Party really really really wants to keep it, let them, accept that, account for it in your adventure designs, and move on. If they went through the blood-sweat-and-tears of solving the adventure the hard way, they've probably earned it.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
An item belonging to a known villain? Sounds like important evidence that the <insert lawful authority> would like to hold and examine in light of the previous crimes committed...
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Perhaps a plot point were they must sacrifice a or several magical items to open a door (or portal, or activate magical device, ect) to something else, perhaps important (especially to the person that has the weapon in question)? If they want whatever this allows them to continue towards, then they should be able to willingly give it up without any sour feelings.
Edit: Oh hey! Vedexent had a similar answer!
Well for my personal experience in the current campaign...
Firbolg ranger finds an awesome magical bow in a dungeon, next to a corpse. Which was an NPC ranger that accompanied the NPC Paladin which has dissappeared. 15 sessions later the group arrives in a town that has a enchanter. Recognizes the bow, since he made it as a gift for the ranger which happened to have been his partner. Then just let it play it out and see what happens. However in this case the bow was not OP or out of place, but just part of a possible story element.
Just outright taking the item away, even if it fits with the dramatic social encounter... players do not like that. If it wasn't for some good play from the Cleric, which convinced the enchanter to make another bow in return as trade (which led to its own set of quests/exploration etc for the needed ingredients and what not)... well if it hadn't turned out like that the players were willing to fight and kill in order to keep the item. Now the new bow is made with the players input.
In your case talk with the player prior to the next session. Tell him about the problem you have. If you can't find an in-game solution see what you can do to come to an agreement with the player to switch the item for something else.
If all else fails use one of the old school monsters ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhihFAqeyU
If you really want an ambush, the party could walk into an antimagic zone (maybe a temple or something being specifically protected from magic users because plot). Maybe have the mace give a ping as they enter but immediately go silent, nothing happens immediately but the party is ambushed a bit later.
I'd be careful about re-arranging the world, in ways that don't seem plausible to the players, for DM convenience.
Players have a nose for that sort of thing, and they don't like it.
I realize you said "because plot", and you might get away with that once - but if the plots start featuring anti-magic zones ( or other "oops, your Mace doesn't work because .... reasons .... " zones ) on a regular bases, that had better be one of the central features to the Adventure/Campaign, or the Players are going to smell a rat and call it a "DM screw job" - correctly.
Although an adventure arc featuring a part of the world where magic is breaking down ( why? what's happening? how can the Party stop the calamity?! ), is an interesting idea :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
If it is making the game less fun for you and your players I would have an out of game discussion with them. Maybe an alternative magic item could be substituted?
Players tend not to like it when their items are just snatched or disabled. If it can be done in world in a way that does not feel like a gotcha or arbitrary nuking of a cool thing it can work, sometimes. But usually better to et the players on board with it first. Especially these days. Back in the old days a certain amount of adversarial relationship, and definite hard mode play was expected, but gaming culture has changed.
This is something that will be introduced to one of my campaigns, the magic of the world is starting to fail for some unknown reason. It's a great way to take those magical items and have them start to fail, or work in unintended ways.
----
I would also like to point out something that hasn't been said: Let them have their magic item, the bonuses from the weapon aren't that powerful if you look at it from all angles.
That part (emphasis mine) is very important to making encounters that can work around the mace's properties. Hold person, Charm, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, poisons, and more can be used to great effect.
Surprised is on an individual creature basis, you're not losing very much since an ambush can be easily thwarted by a character with the Alert feat. Sleeping creatures may lose one round, but that depends on initiative and clever play. A loud noise, say from a party member shouting, can wake your friends, maybe one or two of them miss their initiative. Magical sleep, sure a couple players may lose a turn, but with proper play every character will be awake by the end of the first round.
You've given yourself a challenge, as a DM you have every tool necessary to challenge the players, but now you've challenged yourself. Take it and run with it, learn from it. Taking the toy away from the party shorts you on learning how to DM better, and shorts the players on a magical weapon that really isn't any more over powered than an Owl Familiar owned by a Rogue.
The spirit of the dead villain awakens to find itself bound permanently to its former possession. It cannot communicate and it is protected by its Attuned owner's saving throws.
When the Attuned owner tries to sleep at night, s/he must make a WIS saving throw. If the save is made s/he gains to benefits of a short rest. If the save is failed, s/he gets no effects from any kind of rest. The party will soon do away with the item, or at worse, have to go on a quest to lay the spirit of their former villain to rest without destroying the items.
If you are an evil DM, then the item has become cursed by the spirit of its former owner without the benefit of a remove curse who must be of a level at lease 1 level higher than the villain was. :)
Just a few evil ideas.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
If you taketh away, you must giveth. Or some variation of that saying. Anyway, get creative and think about what they can get out of a situation where they give it up.
Maybe they meet someone who really likes (or actually had owned) that weapon. "What do ya want fo' it?" they might ask. Perhaps what they might trade for it will have a more obvious and immediate application to a current problem that they're just like, "**** yeah, let's trade this thing."
Or just cash the one item into multiple, lesser items to spread around the group. Nothing quite like peer pressure.
I love this one.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
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I just realized that my Party has one of these ( we're only one session into the new campaign ), so I appreciate all the feedback on this as well :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I feel like a lot of the answers given don't meet the criteria. I can only think of two general solutions.
1. Negotiate with the players. Pretty self-explanatory, tell them why you have concerns, offer something in exchange out of character, then give an in character narrative for why they give it up.
2. Make them want to give it up. One way is by overloading attunement slots, but that results in its own problems. You could also make them want to give it to an NPC or the like, but if you do, make sure that later on they get an update on how the item helped.
I think a better solution is to work around the item. If they stop posting watches, have someone steal from them as suggested earlier, though the thief should be mindful of how strong the adventurers are and steal something that's likely to not be worth their effort to track down. Additionally, while it makes them immune to surprise, all that means is that they can always act on the first turn of combat, they can still be ambushed by enemies that are in positions that make retaliation difficult.
The problem with this, is that the Players may think - and in this case, rightfully so - that the thief is only targeting the Party for theft because the DM wants them to. It's what I call a "DM screw job".
If the Party blew into town, and was bragging loudly in the local Tavern about this amazing mace that they have, and how they can't ever be surprised - well, under those conditions I can see them being targeted. Likewise, the Mace was wielded by "one of the main villains of the campaign" - if he survived the encounter ( doesn't seem likely ), or some of his minions know about the mace - then there's a possible justification for someone knowing about, and targeting, the mace for theft.
Just be careful - even if the Party being targeted makes in-world sense, the Party can't get the notion in their heads that the DM is trying to screw them out of legitimate loot - regardless of whether that's a fair evaluation, or not.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
As I said, a good thief will target something that isn't worth the party's time to track them down, that means definitely not the mace. A healing potion or two, 20% of someone's gold, preferably something that could be sold before the party is able to cast locate object and scour the town. Adventurers tend to be rich and vengeful, a thief should be aware of both factors when choosing their targets.
Ah - you were arguing against having a thief steal the Mace.
My misunderstanding :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.