You can't have multiple leaders with opposing ideologies and agendas, especially in a dangerous circumstance like this. That only "leads" to fracture and disaster.
The group has chosen to follow the direction you and Arxius put forth. I'll be a good soldier and follow your lead. I'll still offer my suggestions or opinion.
But willingly or not, you've taken the mantle of leadership, by virtue of standing up for your beliefs and convincing the group to follow those beliefs.
BTW, Alten's reply is at a normal converstational level. He's not trying to keep his response private and assumes the others can hear what he says. He is saying this in a normal tone, as if it is an immutable fact. There isn't any anger or resentment or pouting or anything like that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
But you stepped up and took the lead. You convinced the others to follow. I don't think it was good decision-making, but . . . . Regardless, you led and this group followed. And that is where we are.
Or are you saying you were wrong in your decison to take the lead in the dragon issue? That you aren't capable of leading, of making the tough decisions?
If it is any comfort, I believe the best leaders aren't always the ones who want it or ask for it. Too often the ones who seek out leadership want it for the wrong reasons.
A dragon is not a child, but a beast. Some living souls do deserve to be caged. And some do deserve to die.
But I'm not trying to re-argue what I've already lost in the earlier encounter. I simply repeat my arguements to show you standing up and leading. If you didn't, then my view would have held sway and the dragon would be dead (or we would).
Lead on. Whether you actively wish it or not, you have become the leader. We follow.
Arxius looks hesitantly at the others before she motions towards the South. "From a Ranger perspective it seems best if we clear out the south first." She'll adjust her gloves and start off in that direction.
"We're a group. There doesn't need to be a single leader, we should all be able to make our thoughts and opinions known and have them respected. That's why Arxius and I felt okay telling you we thought you were wrong,"Rees argues, arms crossed. "You shoving us out and declaring we're the leaders because we made one decision you thought was wrong is ridiculous and, honestly, seems a little bit like you punishing us for disagreeing with you by refusing to offer your continued advice or knowledge -- you're a good leader but good leaders are able to bend. There are still massive challenges in front of us and it's going to take all of us to get through them." Shaking her head slightly because Alten confuses the heck out of her, she'll follow after Arxius, moving quietly and keeping an eye out for traps.
You're missing the point Rees. I'm not pushing you or punishing you. I'm chosing to follow. Every group has to have a leader to make the tough call in the moment when the time for debate and discussion is over. If a group doesn't need a leader, then the stakes aren't high enough or it isn't really a group, but just a collection of people. I don't think we can be a collection of people here because I think our lives are high enough stakes.
Followers can have opinions, share them, tell good leaders when they think they are wrong. But followers also have to follow when the leader makes a decision that they don't fully agree with. It is only when the follower is 100% certain that the leader's decision is wrong that the follower has to act is a contrary way. That might be challenging the leader explicitly. That might be taking actions to try to stop the leader's decision. That might be leaving. It might be something else.
Yes I thought you were wrong - 95% sure you are wrong. But that isn't 100 percent. So between that and Grom and Talien not putting up any resistance or serious argument, I'm flexible enought to recognize that I might be in the wrong. So I'm not taking that drastic action of no longer following. I'm continuing to take the role of follower for now. We get thru this and we can re-assess the group dynamic. Assuming we want to even continue to be a group.
Leaders don't exist without people who are willing to follow. Meepo, Talien, and Grom here were all willing to follow you two and your vision, rather than mine. And I am too, at least to get thru this situation. Whether or not I'm a good leader is beside the point. The people I was "leading" - and that is your word, not mine - decided not to follow at the critical moment. I accept it.
Speak up gents. Might as well hear your opinions since it looks like we're doing this now, in the middle of this place.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
Insight check on Alten 13, & on Rees 23
"Leader.... what do any of you know about leadership? have any of you seen 30 years in this life????" "You 3 work this out..... me & Talien will lead on then"
Grom will look at Talien and motion towards the south and say to him "While those 3 work on their leadership struggle lets stay on task and press forward!"
Talien looks at Rees and Alten wishing they would finish their long talk soon as he follows Grom. He tells the dwarf as they walk, I can't lead this group. This world is too new to me. I do not know of all of these creatures we find here and the powers and dangers they are to me and the group. Also I do not care about people's opinions, but I wish to have friends. The way I see it it's your opinion are yours, and it makes you who you are. I will not fight with someone with words to see my way. It ends in fighting with steel... Always.......(quietly)and death.
What are you looking for with your insight rolls Shaz?
Talien, some arguments are fighting with words (assuming that is a typo and should be "fight" instead of "right") and there may be a winner and a loser. But in most cases, arguments are used to try and decide betwen different courses of action when people disagree on what's best. It doesn't usually involve steel and death. It involves hearing the different opinions and deciding which works better. If the group can agree on which side is the better option, then they do that. If a group can't agree which is the better option, then it is up to the leader to decide.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
"I wasn't trying to start a whole big discussion, just meant to say something aside to Alten because you've been a little...down? weird? since Calcryx. That's it. I'm totally fine with moving on."
What are you looking for with your insight rolls Shaz?
Just trying to get a feel for if alten is really still mad about the whole dragon situation or something else or if this is more of a compound thing resulting from everything just kinding building up
1. Alten believes what he is saying is true. On a personal level he is disappointed that he's not "leading" as he has been taught. But he is setting it aside for the good of the mission. He is earnest in believing that Arxius and Rees established their leadership for the group.
2. He's still pretty sure that their view and approach on the dragon is very wrong, but he isn't experienced enough to have followed thru on his convictions, consequences be damned. That's why he's willing to follow Rees and Arxius, despite his personal disappointment.
3. He was already pissed at Grom for Grom's actions and attituade toward the Glaive situation. Now it is flairing up again because Grom is again dismissive of an important situation.
EDIT:
4. I forgot about Chatra. The group wasn't willing to follow Alten in that one either. He wanted him alive for questioning.
What are you looking for with your insight rolls Shaz?
Talien, some arguments are fighting with words (assuming that is a typo and should be "fight" instead of "right") and there may be a winner and a loser. But in most cases, arguments are used to try and decide betwen different courses of action when people disagree on what's best. It doesn't usually involve steel and death. It involves hearing the different opinions and deciding which works better. If the group can agree on which side is the better option, then they do that. If a group can't agree which is the better option, then it is up to the leader to decide.
(Yes I meant fight, thanks)
Well then, Alten if you do not want to lead, nor Arxius and Rees. How about you Grom? Either that or I will lead us to glorious victory! pose (Insert pose with a greatsword) (he wants to be a leader like his master but does not think he is ready)
Also Alten you have been different friend, since the dragon. Does it bother you that much we did not kill it? We know not of it's intentions. You knew nothing of mine when we started, yet you trusted me (looks off into the distance) ...and Chatra...or whatever it was. The point is that even though we change as beings, we have to trust each other. When my master told me to jump off a bridge, I did not know what was at the bottom. But I did not question it. I reacted instantly. You have to trust the people around you.
Like I said, I think you two were wrong to let the dragon live. Nothing has changed in that. And I appreciate the concern, but I'm fine.
But leadership is critical for a group in dangerous situations. Establishing and understanding the group dynamics and roles could be the difference in life or death in a mission. Frankly this Citadel has turned out to be a much more dangerous situation than I expected. Else, I would have had this discussion long before now. We've muddled along, but when you told me to "keep leading" I knew we needed to clear this up.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
Well then, Alten if you do not want to lead, nor Arxius and Rees. How about you Grom? Either that or I will lead us to glorious victory! pose (Insert pose with a greatsword) (he wants to be a leader like his master but does not think he is ready)
Also Alten you have been different friend, since the dragon. Does it bother you that much we did not kill it? We know not of it's intentions. You knew nothing of mine when we started, yet you trusted me (looks off into the distance) ...and Chatra...or whatever it was. The point is that even though we change as beings, we have to trust each other. When my master told me to jump off a bridge, I did not know what was at the bottom. But I did not question it. I reacted instantly. You have to trust the people around you.
To Talien
You trusted your leader and jumped because he said to. That's leadership (unless you were just magically compelled to follow his orders).
Now he's frustrated that people are missing such an obvious point - at least what he considered to be an obvious point. Now he's getting louder
Yeah, I"m probably a little different since I almost ****in' died down here. That's not an experience I want to repeat.
Whether I want to lead or not is not relevant at this point. I want to live thru this shit. But even if I did want to lead, you people clearly does not want to be lead by me. Your collective actions have done nothing but scream it since we've come down here.
The dragon, Chatra, FLDSJFLSJF . . . damn it, this ****in' possessed Glaive . . . Grom's dismissive superiority shit . . . Rees' and Arxius' damage from whatever . . . so I'm . . . .
So I want to get thru this alive and get paid. I'm fine not being in charge of this cluster ****. I'll play my role and do my part to get us thru alive. But somebody has to step up and be a leader. Based on what has happened so far, the group has demonstrated that we're following Rees and Arxius. To pretend otherwise is ludacris.
Looking at Rees and Arxius
For you two to not accept it, at this point, just boggles my mind. For you two not to accept it puts us in greater danger because you won't be prepared to make the call when the time comes. You'll be 'What? Why are you looking at me? I'm not the leader." That hesitation could easily cost one of us our lives.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
Rees stares at him. On the one hand his outburst is probably good for him, more than likely he needed to get all of that out so they could clear the air. It would have been better if he’d kept his temper in check, but gods knew she’d lost hers in the past. Sometimes that was good, too. There was definitely a better time and place for this but, hey, at least it was happening. Taking a deep breath, she looks around to make sure they’re not about to be ambushed, then turns back to Alten, voice calm. (perception to check the area: 18 ) “Sorry... did you say your weapon is possessed? Stop shouting, Alten, you’ll bring every rat and monster in this place right to us. We’re all coming at this with different perspectives, you have no idea why Arxius and I felt differently about the dragon than you and you haven’t bothered to ask, you just got your feelings hurt that we didn’t do what you said — or that’s how it seemed to me, anyway. I don’t agree with you that we need a single leader, but I can respect your opinion and agree to do my part. I’m sorry that it seems like we’re not listening to you. I don’t know you very well, we’ve only been together a few days, a week? And a stressful one at that. We still have a lot to figure out, but we can do it. Now then, what’s wrong with your weapon?”
Thank you, but that's not how it works.
You can't have multiple leaders with opposing ideologies and agendas, especially in a dangerous circumstance like this. That only "leads" to fracture and disaster.
The group has chosen to follow the direction you and Arxius put forth. I'll be a good soldier and follow your lead. I'll still offer my suggestions or opinion.
But willingly or not, you've taken the mantle of leadership, by virtue of standing up for your beliefs and convincing the group to follow those beliefs.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
BTW, Alten's reply is at a normal converstational level. He's not trying to keep his response private and assumes the others can hear what he says. He is saying this in a normal tone, as if it is an immutable fact. There isn't any anger or resentment or pouting or anything like that.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
"I am no leader," Arxius says, shrinking back. She looks at Rees and Meepo. "No one should follow me. I did not ask for it."
Arxius, Elven Simic Hybrid Ranger in Tales from the Yawning Portal
to both Arxius and Rees
But you stepped up and took the lead. You convinced the others to follow. I don't think it was good decision-making, but . . . . Regardless, you led and this group followed. And that is where we are.
Or are you saying you were wrong in your decison to take the lead in the dragon issue? That you aren't capable of leading, of making the tough decisions?
If it is any comfort, I believe the best leaders aren't always the ones who want it or ask for it. Too often the ones who seek out leadership want it for the wrong reasons.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
"No living soul should be caged or die for the beliefs of another. I would never have let you harm that child."
Arxius, Elven Simic Hybrid Ranger in Tales from the Yawning Portal
Giving her a 'there you go' hand wave.
And that is leading from your convictions.
A dragon is not a child, but a beast. Some living souls do deserve to be caged. And some do deserve to die.
But I'm not trying to re-argue what I've already lost in the earlier encounter. I simply repeat my arguements to show you standing up and leading. If you didn't, then my view would have held sway and the dragon would be dead (or we would).
Lead on. Whether you actively wish it or not, you have become the leader. We follow.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
Arxius looks hesitantly at the others before she motions towards the South. "From a Ranger perspective it seems best if we clear out the south first." She'll adjust her gloves and start off in that direction.
Arxius, Elven Simic Hybrid Ranger in Tales from the Yawning Portal
"We're a group. There doesn't need to be a single leader, we should all be able to make our thoughts and opinions known and have them respected. That's why Arxius and I felt okay telling you we thought you were wrong," Rees argues, arms crossed. "You shoving us out and declaring we're the leaders because we made one decision you thought was wrong is ridiculous and, honestly, seems a little bit like you punishing us for disagreeing with you by refusing to offer your continued advice or knowledge -- you're a good leader but good leaders are able to bend. There are still massive challenges in front of us and it's going to take all of us to get through them." Shaking her head slightly because Alten confuses the heck out of her, she'll follow after Arxius, moving quietly and keeping an eye out for traps.
Rees Changeling Rogue in Tales From the Yawning Portal: Sunless Citadel
Nikya Centaur Blood Hunter in Death House Halloween Oneshot
You're missing the point Rees. I'm not pushing you or punishing you. I'm chosing to follow. Every group has to have a leader to make the tough call in the moment when the time for debate and discussion is over. If a group doesn't need a leader, then the stakes aren't high enough or it isn't really a group, but just a collection of people. I don't think we can be a collection of people here because I think our lives are high enough stakes.
Followers can have opinions, share them, tell good leaders when they think they are wrong. But followers also have to follow when the leader makes a decision that they don't fully agree with. It is only when the follower is 100% certain that the leader's decision is wrong that the follower has to act is a contrary way. That might be challenging the leader explicitly. That might be taking actions to try to stop the leader's decision. That might be leaving. It might be something else.
Yes I thought you were wrong - 95% sure you are wrong. But that isn't 100 percent. So between that and Grom and Talien not putting up any resistance or serious argument, I'm flexible enought to recognize that I might be in the wrong. So I'm not taking that drastic action of no longer following. I'm continuing to take the role of follower for now. We get thru this and we can re-assess the group dynamic. Assuming we want to even continue to be a group.
Leaders don't exist without people who are willing to follow. Meepo, Talien, and Grom here were all willing to follow you two and your vision, rather than mine. And I am too, at least to get thru this situation. Whether or not I'm a good leader is beside the point. The people I was "leading" - and that is your word, not mine - decided not to follow at the critical moment. I accept it.
Speak up gents. Might as well hear your opinions since it looks like we're doing this now, in the middle of this place.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
Insight check on Alten 13, & on Rees 23
"Leader.... what do any of you know about leadership? have any of you seen 30 years in this life????"
"You 3 work this out..... me & Talien will lead on then"
Grom will look at Talien and motion towards the south and say to him
"While those 3 work on their leadership struggle lets stay on task and press forward!"
Grombrindal "The White Dwarf" (Dwarf - Wizard) - Fenris_Worldsbane's Tales from the Yawning Portal
Talien looks at Rees and Alten wishing they would finish their long talk soon as he follows Grom. He tells the dwarf as they walk, I can't lead this group. This world is too new to me. I do not know of all of these creatures we find here and the powers and dangers they are to me and the group. Also I do not care about people's opinions, but I wish to have friends. The way I see it it's your opinion are yours, and it makes you who you are. I will not fight with someone with words to see my way. It ends in fighting with steel... Always.......(quietly)and death.
Warforged Fighter Talien
What are you looking for with your insight rolls Shaz?
Talien, some arguments are fighting with words (assuming that is a typo and should be "fight" instead of "right") and there may be a winner and a loser. But in most cases, arguments are used to try and decide betwen different courses of action when people disagree on what's best. It doesn't usually involve steel and death. It involves hearing the different opinions and deciding which works better. If the group can agree on which side is the better option, then they do that. If a group can't agree which is the better option, then it is up to the leader to decide.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
"I wasn't trying to start a whole big discussion, just meant to say something aside to Alten because you've been a little...down? weird? since Calcryx. That's it. I'm totally fine with moving on."
Rees Changeling Rogue in Tales From the Yawning Portal: Sunless Citadel
Nikya Centaur Blood Hunter in Death House Halloween Oneshot
Just trying to get a feel for if alten is really still mad about the whole dragon situation or something else or if this is more of a compound thing resulting from everything just kinding building up
Grombrindal "The White Dwarf" (Dwarf - Wizard) - Fenris_Worldsbane's Tales from the Yawning Portal
1. Alten believes what he is saying is true. On a personal level he is disappointed that he's not "leading" as he has been taught. But he is setting it aside for the good of the mission. He is earnest in believing that Arxius and Rees established their leadership for the group.
2. He's still pretty sure that their view and approach on the dragon is very wrong, but he isn't experienced enough to have followed thru on his convictions, consequences be damned. That's why he's willing to follow Rees and Arxius, despite his personal disappointment.
3. He was already pissed at Grom for Grom's actions and attituade toward the Glaive situation. Now it is flairing up again because Grom is again dismissive of an important situation.
EDIT:
4. I forgot about Chatra. The group wasn't willing to follow Alten in that one either. He wanted him alive for questioning.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
(Yes I meant fight, thanks)
Well then, Alten if you do not want to lead, nor Arxius and Rees. How about you Grom? Either that or I will lead us to glorious victory! pose (Insert pose with a greatsword) (he wants to be a leader like his master but does not think he is ready)
Also Alten you have been different friend, since the dragon. Does it bother you that much we did not kill it? We know not of it's intentions. You knew nothing of mine when we started, yet you trusted me (looks off into the distance) ...and Chatra...or whatever it was. The point is that even though we change as beings, we have to trust each other. When my master told me to jump off a bridge, I did not know what was at the bottom. But I did not question it. I reacted instantly. You have to trust the people around you.
Warforged Fighter Talien
To Rees
Like I said, I think you two were wrong to let the dragon live. Nothing has changed in that. And I appreciate the concern, but I'm fine.
But leadership is critical for a group in dangerous situations. Establishing and understanding the group dynamics and roles could be the difference in life or death in a mission. Frankly this Citadel has turned out to be a much more dangerous situation than I expected. Else, I would have had this discussion long before now. We've muddled along, but when you told me to "keep leading" I knew we needed to clear this up.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
To Talien
You trusted your leader and jumped because he said to. That's leadership (unless you were just magically compelled to follow his orders).
Now he's frustrated that people are missing such an obvious point - at least what he considered to be an obvious point. Now he's getting louder
Yeah, I"m probably a little different since I almost ****in' died down here. That's not an experience I want to repeat.
Whether I want to lead or not is not relevant at this point. I want to live thru this shit. But even if I did want to lead, you people clearly does not want to be lead by me. Your collective actions have done nothing but scream it since we've come down here.
The dragon, Chatra, FLDSJFLSJF . . . damn it, this ****in' possessed Glaive . . . Grom's dismissive superiority shit . . . Rees' and Arxius' damage from whatever . . . so I'm . . . .
So I want to get thru this alive and get paid. I'm fine not being in charge of this cluster ****. I'll play my role and do my part to get us thru alive. But somebody has to step up and be a leader. Based on what has happened so far, the group has demonstrated that we're following Rees and Arxius. To pretend otherwise is ludacris.
Looking at Rees and Arxius
For you two to not accept it, at this point, just boggles my mind. For you two not to accept it puts us in greater danger because you won't be prepared to make the call when the time comes. You'll be 'What? Why are you looking at me? I'm not the leader." That hesitation could easily cost one of us our lives.
"Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth." A Camus
Rees stares at him. On the one hand his outburst is probably good for him, more than likely he needed to get all of that out so they could clear the air. It would have been better if he’d kept his temper in check, but gods knew she’d lost hers in the past. Sometimes that was good, too. There was definitely a better time and place for this but, hey, at least it was happening. Taking a deep breath, she looks around to make sure they’re not about to be ambushed, then turns back to Alten, voice calm.
(perception to check the area: 18 )
“Sorry... did you say your weapon is possessed? Stop shouting, Alten, you’ll bring every rat and monster in this place right to us. We’re all coming at this with different perspectives, you have no idea why Arxius and I felt differently about the dragon than you and you haven’t bothered to ask, you just got your feelings hurt that we didn’t do what you said — or that’s how it seemed to me, anyway. I don’t agree with you that we need a single leader, but I can respect your opinion and agree to do my part. I’m sorry that it seems like we’re not listening to you. I don’t know you very well, we’ve only been together a few days, a week? And a stressful one at that. We still have a lot to figure out, but we can do it. Now then, what’s wrong with your weapon?”
Rees Changeling Rogue in Tales From the Yawning Portal: Sunless Citadel
Nikya Centaur Blood Hunter in Death House Halloween Oneshot
Talien will move closer to inspect the 'possessed' glaive. (Not sure what check you need specifically just a d20) 8
Also to clarify, not touching the weapon. Visual inspection unless Alten offers.
Warforged Fighter Talien