Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I think you missed this part:

[[Yes. You can fight in the cloak. Acrobatics in combat might be tricky though, particularly rolls and the like.]]

Just checking: do YOU mean 'coat' in the above? ie. can he fight in the coat these guys are making? I reckon if Neo can do it in a full length coat, then Brand can in 3/4. Just saying.

[[No. I meant cloak. He will be able to fight better in the coat than a cloak.]]

"How does 5 Engles and 3 days for the finished item sound? But you will need to come back tomorrow with the armour you plan to wear for a proper fitting of the material part of the coat?"

[[ lol 3 days....so next September???? ]]

[[LOL.]]

Brand nods and breathes a sigh of relief, "Well, that's settled then...when would you like payment?"

[[ Brand accepts answer...he has the cash if necessary ]]

Brand agrees, then asks "With regards to fitting the armour: It is the same (or very similar to) what I am wearing now [[He has the studded leather on]]. Should I return tomorrow, or can you take the necessary measurements now? It is of little consequence to me; whichever is most likely to produce the best result."

[[ Waits for answer and agrees to whichever ]]

[[See below.]]

When Brand asks what the wire reinforcing will be made of, the tailor smiles and says, "It would be best-quality, fine iron wire; I wouldn't recommend anything softer if you want to stop a sword slash."

Brand nods, "Would bronze be and acceptable substitute?" [[IIRC Melitta and Dworkin both had bronze armour. I'm thinking (a) of if he achieves his ambition of becoming a caster, and (b) he might be able to get someone to enchant it with something nifty now; Bronze is also harder than iron and doesn't rust...the latter seems quite a useful feature if its embedded in clothes.

From the construction of his other items...does he know of other metals that would be better? ]]

[[Make an Arcana check.]]

[[ Re his armour: is there a form of leather that is based around plates and leather (plates held by studs), or is cuirboili the only option? ]]

[[Cuirboili is the option. Individual hardened plates of thick leather are held together with straps and studs (i.e., it is studded leather of this world). However, it is bulky and hard to make it look like you aren't wearing armour.]]

[[ I will also hit the sack. This is much less stressful that melee! ]]

[[ Brand will also talk about two more things: a hood, and soft leather. I discounted soft leather on the basis of its durability. Your recent definition of soft leather leads me to question that. So: ]]

[[Basically, soft leather = D&D basic leather armour and has a base AC of 11 and can be covered easily with clothes. Cuirboili = D&D basic studded leather and has a base AC of 12 and is bulky and it looks like you are wearing armour.]]

"Given your understanding of my requirement, do you think leather or wool serve better?"

And:

"We never discussed hoods. Is that a possibility?"

When Brand accepts the stated amount, the tailor asks for 3 Engles now and the rest on completion and then tells Brand that he won't be able to do the fitting until tomorrow as he has to make up the basic coat first, which will then be custom fitted when he can see it in place on top of the armour.

In response to the suggested possibility that the wire reinforcement be made of bronze, the tailor replies that that metal is too brittle to be worked with and that copper is too weak. Iron, on the other hand, is both hard to sever, malleable and can be readily pushed back into shape.

When asked about choice of coat materials and the possibility of adding a hood, he tells Brand that the woollen version would be less conspicuous and that adding a hood will add a Constantine to the final price, but that the hood itself won't be reinforced.

that that metal is too brittle to be worked with

[[ I'm confused. Can I therefor assume that when he says Iron, he really means steel wire? Bronze is more ductile than iron, it's also tougher and more resistant to oxidation. And can clearly be worked since people made armour from it (our world and Melitta/Dworkin), and still make jewelry and wires from it to this day. According to Wikipedia, Bronze went out of use because of a lack of tin, then as iron work improved they got steel. Since we have steel weapons, I assume he means steel wire...]]

Brand looks confused when he makes the comment about iron, "So, when you say Iron you mean some type of steel? Will there not rust or maintenance be a problem? I do a lot of work to keep my weapons in good condition."

Brand agrees to the extra con for the hood, and hands over 3e. [[ Finances updated ]]

From the construction of his other items...does he know of other metals that would be better? ]]

[[Make an Arcana check.]]

Arcana: 14

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

that that metal is too brittle to be worked with

[[ I'm confused. Can I therefor assume that when he says Iron, he really means steel wire? Bronze is more ductile than iron, it's also tougher and more resistant to oxidation. And can clearly be worked since people made armour from it (our world and Melitta/Dworkin), and still make jewelry and wires from it to this day. According to Wikipedia, Bronze went out of use because of a lack of tin, then as iron work improved they got steel. Since we have steel weapons, I assume he means steel wire...]]

Brand looks confused when he makes the comment about iron, "So, when you say Iron you mean some type of steel? Will there not rust or maintenance be a problem? I do a lot of work to keep my weapons in good condition."

[[You are making assumptions about the level of technology in this world where magic has been in competition with it. For example, the windows in this shop are an extravagance because the ability to make high-quality glass in sheets has only just been developed and so such windows are very expensive. Also, for various reasons, what we know as steel hasn't been developed yet in the Sorendenese Empire. However, you have made me do a rethink, and I am going to have to retcon the material he suggested using for the reinforcing and make it bronze (but not necessarily for the reasons you mentioned).]]

Brand agrees to the extra con for the hood, and hands over 3e. [[ Finances updated ]]

From the construction of his other items...does he know of other metals that would be better? ]]

[[Make an Arcana check.]]

Arcana: 14

[[The quick answer to this is 'no' (see above). Make a roll for experience.]]

Arcana XP: 19 )Edit: LOL...p[ease tell me I get XP, or I will be annoyed!!!!)

[[ So...his daggers are iron, or just the lucky confluence of iron work that in fact makes steel because carbon gets added? If they are iron, then he would probably be better off with bronze weapons.

I do recall that iron was in short supply in the original campaign, I think. ANy history would be interesting. ]]

At the conclusion of the deal Brand shakes the mans hand, then says "It's presumptuous of me I know, but that necklace you wear -- I have not seen one like it before -- what is it?"

[[ If he has seen them before, and knows what they are, he does not ask....]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Arcana XP: 16 )Edit: LOL...p[ease tell me I get XP, or I will be annoyed!!!!)

[[You gain 5 experience points. Clearly Brand has a lot to learn about metallurgy in this world ;-)]]

[[ So...his daggers are iron, or just the lucky confluence of iron work that in fact makes steel because carbon gets added? If they are iron, then he would probably be better off with bronze weapons.

[[Disagree about bronze weapons being better than iron weapons. Iron age weapons were superior to bronze age weapons because while bronze is harder it is brittler than iron and would break more easily. However, that doesn't mean Brand can't use bronze weapons. They are quite commonly used by sorcerers because iron is anathema to mana. This is why Melitta and Dworkin had bronze armour and weapons.]]

 

I do recall that iron was in short supply in the original campaign, I think. ANy history would be interesting. ]]

[[Because of the pre-eminence of sorcery amongst the intelligentsia of the Sorendenese Empire, development of the working of iron (which is detrimental to the practice of magic) has been limited. However, this might be the case in other places in the world.]]

---

At the conclusion of the deal Brand shakes the mans hand, then says "It's presumptuous of me I know, but that necklace you wear -- I have not seen one like it before -- what is it?"

[[ If he has seen them before, and knows what they are, he does not ask....]]

"This?" says the tailor, putting a hand up to the iron ring around his neck. "It makes me a magi. I am what is called a latent sorcerer."

[[ Damn. I would respond instantly, but dinner with friends ATM....Grrrr]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ Damn. I would respond instantly, but dinner with friends ATM....Grrrr]]

[[No worries, enjoy your dinner.]]

[[ Dinner done. Research Time!

I'm really curious about the bronze/iron discussion. I see a lot of people saying bronze is brittle, but I also see the reverse. Would be great to find someone who actually has a basis for their views. This link is by someone who makes bronze swords: his line is that too much tin makes them brittle, the right amount makes them almost as good as steel. I'm still looking. I'd always assumed iron took over because it was all-out superior, but as wikipedia says, it seems to have been about tin shortages.

Here's another article that claims that bronze is at least equivalent, and probably superior. Again, it's problem being that it requires tin, or perhaps more important;y, two metals not usualy found together.

This link claims the brittle argument, but it also makes other claims (hardness) that are demonstrably false, so I am disinclined to give it much weight, so to speak.

And this link may shed some light: the assertion is that the chinese used high tin bronze, resulting in brittle weapons (consistent with the martial arts link above that claims they are brittle), and consistent with the first link that says you should not use high tin. It is also notes that lower tin results in weapons that bend more; and another link I read (and now can't find), noted that unlike iron, when bronze is bent and hammered back into shape it actually becomes stronger (iron weakens).

This quote from the above link caught my attention:

"Early high-tin blades in particular tended to be short (50-60cm) on account of the brittleness, but by the late "Spring and Autumn Period" (~500 BC), the Chinese were quite advanced in metalworking, and were casting bimetallic swords. The core of the sword was softer and more resilient low-tin bronze, whereas the edges were formed from harder high-tin bronze."

In any case, it remains far from clear to me that bronze is necessarily brittle; my money would be on it being almost as good as steel. If you have done the detailed research, I'd love to know what the deal is. If not, I'll keep looking, I'm finding this interesting in and of itself.

For Sorendon, the flipside your comments about iron and magick would suggest that they *would* have done the research on bronze, and should be up there with the chinese of 500BC!

Nuff research for now.

Brand's jaw drops (briefly), then he speaks in hushed tones, "A latent sorceror? I have been trying to learn about latent sorcery and how to test for it, but ... it's not a popular topic. People at the School focus on the innate ones. How did you discover iron activated your talent...and isn't iron bad for magick?"

[[Interesting research on bronze versus iron and the magic-using fraternity of this campaign setting would definitely have researched using it, ala the Chinese above. The lack of development for iron in the campaign setting is based partly on the iron-is-anathema-to-magic effect, but that doesn't mean that it isn't used for weapons by non-magicians (it is more abundant) and it also doesn't mean that steel isn't available in different societies and places in the world. So, for the moment, we will have both iron and bronze weapons being used in the general population with bronze being needed to be used for weapons involved in the making of magic. Thanks for following this up, I will add an article to the world site on this when I get the chance.]]

The tailor hesitates and then says, "It is... I will never be a powerful magus." Then he indicates the store around him and adds, "But I have enough sorcery to help with my true craft."

[[I have added a bit on the use of metals in weapons to the 'Magick and metals' article in the 'Magical things' category on the World site.]]

[[I have added a bit on the use of metals in weapons to the 'Magick and metals' article in the 'Magical things' category on the World site.]]

[[Looks good.]]

The tailor hesitates and then says, "It is... I will never be a powerful magus." Then he indicates the store around him and adds, "But I have enough sorcery to help with my true craft."

"I can imagine, very useful indeed! But, how did you discover this talent?"

[[Sorry, we had a visitor for most of the day.]]

"One day I could just see mana," replies the tailor with a shrug. "And when I told someone about it, I got tested and that was it. I was a sorcerer, it changed my life."

He then turns away and brings back a piece of paper on which he writes the details of Brand's item of clothing, the price already paid (3 E) and the price still to be paid (2.1 E).

"If you wouldn't mind signing here please sir," he says, presenting Brand with the paper and a pen.

[[Make an Insight check.]]

[[ Before I roll...is passive enough? I've got such a history of missed 'interesting' rolls. This is actually part of a larger question about the difference between passive and active rolls? Is passive a lower bound, so if you ask me to roll, should I conclude that it requires more than 12? I find the combination confusing. I *like* the idea of passive skills. but I've read so much contradictory stuff about what they mean....]]

Insight: 4

[[ I assume this is a world where most people do not write, so Brand could as easily scrawl any name on the paper, or an X. Is that correct? ]]

Brand pauses before signing, "Strange, I'd heard that someone needed to cast a spell to detect such things. But for you, it just happened?"

Quote from AlaricBrand>>

[[ Before I roll...is passive enough? I've got such a history of missed 'interesting' rolls. This is actually part of a larger question about the difference between passive and active rolls? Is passive a lower bound, so if you ask me to roll, should I conclude that it requires more than 12? I find the combination confusing. I *like* the idea of passive skills. but I've read so much contradictory stuff about what they mean....]]

[[It's tricky I agree, because the very fact I asked for a roll tells you there is something going on that you might not have even noticed if I hadn't. In this case, it means that there is something that Brand's passive Insight was not high enough to pick up on, but was close enough that I thought it warranted a roll and the result determines what information—if any—I give. Having failed the roll, I would now expect you as a player to pretend that your character suspects nothing.]]

Insight: 4

[[The above is definitely a failure, so you can at least make a roll for experience.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ I assume this is a world where most people do not write, so Brand could as easily scrawl any name on the paper, or an X. Is that correct? ]]

[[The native Stemians don't even have a written language, so they would need to use an identifying mark or make a verbal agreement with witnesses. However, the Sorendenese do teach their children to read and write (in Temple schools mostly) and signing such a piece of paper would be considered legally binding. In this case, both Brand and the tailor are obviously of Sorendenese descent, and so this written agreement should not be consider unusual. In fact, Brand would normally use his signet ring if he wanted to make the deal truly official.]] 

Brand pauses before signing, "Strange, I'd heard that someone needed to cast a spell to detect such things. But for you, it just happened?"

[[Does Brand use his own signature, or signet ring? If he doesn't, then I need you to make a Deception check.]]

The tailor just shrugs and says, "No. That is not the way it happened."

[[Does Brand use his own signature, or signet ring? If he doesn't, then I need you to make a Deception check.]]

Brand shrugs, "Odd", and scribbles something non-descript on the paper, as he usually does. "But I am still confused: How did you find that iron was needed for your talent?"

Deception: 9

XP for insight: 9

I am REALLY sick of getting my rolls the wrong way around. Just aint fun. Edit: perhaps better: ain't as much fun as it could be!

Anyway, I assume this is XP also.

 I didnt add last time, so +5 +15, I think:

XP update: 1220 + 20 = 1240.

Let me know if I've been presumtuous!

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

XP for insight: 18

I am REALLY sick of getting my rolls the wrong way around. Just aint fun. Edit: perhaps better: ain't as much fun as it could be!

Anyway, I assume this is XP also.

 I didnt add last time, so +5 +15, I think:

XP update: 1220 + 20 = 1240.

Let me know if I've been presumtuous!

[[Nope. All good.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Does Brand use his own signature, or signet ring? If he doesn't, then I need you to make a Deception check.]]

Brand shrugs, "Odd", and scribbles something non-descript on the paper, as he usually does. "But I am still confused: How did you find that iron was needed for your talent?"

Deception: 9

The tailor doesn't even bother looking at the piece of paper as he says, "I had no idea. The magi they brought in to test me worked it out. Apparently cold iron is quite a common trigger for latent sorcerers, that and gold."

[[The Deception check was a success.]]

"So, what time tomorrow would you like to come in Master..." the tailor asks expectantly as he picks up the page.