The only tweets that JC has made on this have entirely missed the point of what was asked for him, so I'm not sure he understood the question, or has really weighed in on it.
He was asked if you can ready misty step, and (like myself), forgot that you explicitly can't ready misty step because Ready tells you you can't use it to cast spells other than those with a casting time of one action. Instead, he answered "A bonus action can be taken only on your turn," which (1) presupposes that the ready wouldn't be triggered same turn, and (2) misses that you trigger ready with a reaction not a bonus action.
I don't think Crawford has addressed squarely "can you use an action to ready actions that are normally taken using a bonus action, to instead use them as a reaction?" I think that we don't seem to agree on RAI on this, in part because its hard to nail down RAW what sense of "action" Ready is really using, and whether it was using pulling a lever as an example of a non-Action free interaction action, or as a [Tooltip Not Found] action (which has its own complicated analysis, since one of those rather explicitly can only be used on your own turn, and run into the same sort of "but Bonus Actions definitionally are only on your own turn!" problem in a new way if we want to go down that road).
I'd be willing to agree that this is RAW fuzzy, and chalk up our disagreement to being over RAI.
The only tweets that JC has made on this have entirely missed the point of what was asked for him, so I'm not sure he understood the question, or has really weighed in on it.
He was asked if you can ready misty step, and (like myself), forgot that you explicitly can't ready misty step because Ready tells you you can't use it to cast spells other than those with a casting time of one action. Instead, he answered "A bonus action can be taken only on your turn," which (1) presupposes that the ready wouldn't be triggered same turn, and (2) misses that you trigger ready with a reaction not a bonus action.
I don't think Crawford has addressed squarely "can you use an action to ready actions that are normally taken using a bonus action, to instead use them as a reaction?" I think that we don't seem to agree on RAI on this, in part because its hard to nail down RAW what sense of "action" Ready is really using, and whether it was using pulling a lever as an example of a non-Action free interaction action, or as a Use an Object action (which has its own complicated analysis, since one of those rather explicitly can only be used on your own turn, and run into the same sort of "but Bonus Actions definitionally are only on your own turn!" problem in a new way if we want to go down that road).
I'd be willing to agree that this is RAW fuzzy, and chalk up our disagreement to being over RAI.
Yeah, I agree. I think the biggest indication that the intent was not to allow bonus action readying is the cast time restriction on readied spells (1 action). But yes, I realize that taking a readied bonus action on your turn doesn't make it a second bonus action (it's a reaction, like you point out), and I realize the only language which could be construed as specifically ruling out bonus action as a candidate for Ready is the "you choose the action you will take" (emphasis mine), but that's a flimsy argument, since bonus actions are considered actions in other contexts.
The limitation on spells is somewhat persuasive... But then again, Bonus Action spells already have such specific and bizarre interactions with other spellcasting activity, that that language might also have been intended solely to prevent someone from being able to avoid the "only other spell is a Cantrip with casting time of one 1 action" prohibition by laundering a Fireball into a reaction, and not as a statement about the general suitability of bonus actions as readied reactions.
The only tweets that JC has made on this have entirely missed the point of what was asked for him, so I'm not sure he understood the question, or has really weighed in on it.
He was asked if you can ready misty step, and (like myself), forgot that you explicitly can't ready misty step because Ready tells you you can't use it to cast spells other than those with a casting time of one action. Instead, he answered "A bonus action can be taken only on your turn," which (1) presupposes that the ready wouldn't be triggered same turn, and (2) misses that you trigger ready with a reaction not a bonus action.
I don't think Crawford has addressed squarely "can you use an action to ready actions that are normally taken using a bonus action, to instead use them as a reaction?" I think that we don't seem to agree on RAI on this, in part because its hard to nail down RAW what sense of "action" Ready is really using, and whether it was using pulling a lever as an example of a non-Action free interaction action, or as a Use an Object action (which has its own complicated analysis, since one of those rather explicitly can only be used on your own turn, and run into the same sort of "but Bonus Actions definitionally are only on your own turn!" problem in a new way if we want to go down that road).
I'd be willing to agree that this is RAW fuzzy, and chalk up our disagreement to being over RAI.
Yeah, I agree. I think the biggest indication that the intent was not to allow bonus action readying is the cast time restriction on readied spells (1 action). But yes, I realize that taking a readied bonus action on your turn doesn't make it a second bonus action (it's a reaction, like you point out), and I realize the only language which could be construed as specifically ruling out bonus action as a candidate for Ready is the "you choose the action you will take" (emphasis mine), but that's a flimsy argument, since bonus actions are considered actions in other contexts.
Its definately RAI that its not as JC easily answered "No" but just with rational that is wrong....you can use your reaction on your turn for one thing...
Its also RAW as they delineate BA as only on your turn and only once per round....where as you can get more actions in a lot of ways.
It SHOULD say you cannot Ready a BA in the Ready action description but JC has too much false confidence in their bad natural language approach to believe that people wouldn't understand.
I think the goalposts have moved from "Can I use spiritual weapon twice on my turn?" to "Can I take a bonus action without actually taking a bonus action?" and the answer to both is no. But if we squint with one eye and hold the rule book at just the right angle, we can find ONE SIMPLE TRICK that makes the word no look like the word yes.
As written, it is certainly not possible to use a bonus action spell with ready. However, the rules for readying spells are quite different from the rules for readying other actions, so it doesn't tell us much.
I think the goalposts have moved from "Can I use spiritual weapon twice on my turn?" to "Can I take a bonus action without actually taking a bonus action?" and the answer to both is no. But if we squint with one eye and hold the rule book at just the right angle, we can find ONE SIMPLE TRICK that makes the word no look like the word yes.
That's a needlessly uncharitable reading. They're the same question. And I don't think its news to anyone that "action" is an often-ambiguous word in the PHB which often requires a little analysis to understand. When I gave this same answer for moving Dust Devil off-turn the other day, no one batted an eye, but maybe y'all just skipped that thread or were blinded by my christmas light color coding :)
But regarding the topic at hand, can we agree that controlling the spiritual weapon requires a bonus action? And can we agree that one only gets a single bonus action per turn?
...To the same extent that Dodge requires an action, and you only get one action per turn. But if something were to let you Dodge again as not an Action (as a Bonus Action, or as a Reaction), than Dodging again would not be using two actions in one turn merely because Dodge is ordinarily an Action.
But regarding the topic at hand, can we agree that controlling the spiritual weapon requires a bonus action? And can we agree that one only gets a single bonus action per turn?
The question isn't whether you agree that it requires a bonus action or not or whether you can have two in your turn.
The question is whether you agree or not that Readying anything moves it from it's original category to a reaction.
CC argument is that you are not using your bonus action twice because one of those is actually using your reaction as per Ready action rules.
Here's the logical problem I run into with the plan, and it really doesn't matter whether you can or cannot ready a bonus action:
Spiritual Weapon does not say "you may only move and attack the weapon using a Bonus Action." Injecting additional words into rules and features does often change their emphasis, as your chart so helpfully demonstrates.
But regarding the topic at hand, can we agree that controlling the spiritual weapon requires a bonus action? And can we agree that one only gets a single bonus action per turn?
As a balance issue, I don't find myself too bothered by someone using up both their action and their reaction to make another spiritual weapon attack (or other bonus action ability).
Spiritual Weapon does not say "you may only move and attack the weapon using a Bonus Action." Injecting additional words into rules and features does often change their emphasis, as your chart so helpfully demonstrates.
Hang on, you just agreed 100% with me in post #13. But now you don't? Functionally speaking, what is the difference between "you may only move and attack the weapon using a Bonus Action." (which you claim it does not say) and "As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it." (which is copied from the spell description)?
The difference is the emphASIS you're putting on the syllABEL to make a point that the PHB wording alone is clearly not making for you.
You only may take one bonus action on your turn.
Maintaining Spiritual Weapon gives you a special action, which you take using a bonus action on your turn.
Ready is an action you take, which allows you to take any other action that you would normally take on your turn at a later time on your turn or someone else's turn before your next turn, by using a reaction.
Those are all true. But when you start injecting "only" in there, I have to say, you're trying to say something extra. You take Dodge with an action on your turn. You don't only take Dodge as an action on your turn.
So are you suggesting that "As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it." leaves the door open for also doing so without using your bonus action?
In general spells (and other abilities) can't do things that they don't say they can do, so whether or not it's possible to ready a bonus action, you can't make a spiritual weapon outside of your turn, because the ability says that it's only on your turn, so if you used it outside of your turn it wouldn't actually do anything. Using a readied action on the turn you readied it strikes me as mostly intended as exploits in the first place.
If another features were to operate to let you take actions that ordinarily take bonus actions as a reaction, yes. Ready laundering an Action or Bonus Action to a Reaction is not very different from Cunning Action laundering an Action to a Bonus Action. Features interact to make things true and possible that aren't generally true or possible. That's D&D.
ok, I think I follow you now. Thanks for explaining the angle you're coming from because I did not see it on my own.
I believe your comparison does not work in this case. Cunning action allows something that is normally an action to be taken as a bonus action because it says it does that. Spiritual weapon provides for no other way of controlling the spiritual weapon beyond using your bonus action even if it does not explicitly prohibit you from using other actions to do so. To fall back on an oft-quoted maxim, a rule does what it says it does and nothing more.
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The only tweets that JC has made on this have entirely missed the point of what was asked for him, so I'm not sure he understood the question, or has really weighed in on it.
He was asked if you can ready misty step, and (like myself), forgot that you explicitly can't ready misty step because Ready tells you you can't use it to cast spells other than those with a casting time of one action. Instead, he answered "A bonus action can be taken only on your turn," which (1) presupposes that the ready wouldn't be triggered same turn, and (2) misses that you trigger ready with a reaction not a bonus action.
I don't think Crawford has addressed squarely "can you use an action to ready actions that are normally taken using a bonus action, to instead use them as a reaction?" I think that we don't seem to agree on RAI on this, in part because its hard to nail down RAW what sense of "action" Ready is really using, and whether it was using pulling a lever as an example of a non-Action free interaction action, or as a [Tooltip Not Found] action (which has its own complicated analysis, since one of those rather explicitly can only be used on your own turn, and run into the same sort of "but Bonus Actions definitionally are only on your own turn!" problem in a new way if we want to go down that road).
I'd be willing to agree that this is RAW fuzzy, and chalk up our disagreement to being over RAI.
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Yeah, I agree. I think the biggest indication that the intent was not to allow bonus action readying is the cast time restriction on readied spells (1 action). But yes, I realize that taking a readied bonus action on your turn doesn't make it a second bonus action (it's a reaction, like you point out), and I realize the only language which could be construed as specifically ruling out bonus action as a candidate for Ready is the "you choose the action you will take" (emphasis mine), but that's a flimsy argument, since bonus actions are considered actions in other contexts.
The limitation on spells is somewhat persuasive... But then again, Bonus Action spells already have such specific and bizarre interactions with other spellcasting activity, that that language might also have been intended solely to prevent someone from being able to avoid the "only other spell is a Cantrip with casting time of one 1 action" prohibition by laundering a Fireball into a reaction, and not as a statement about the general suitability of bonus actions as readied reactions.
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Its definately RAI that its not as JC easily answered "No" but just with rational that is wrong....you can use your reaction on your turn for one thing...
Its also RAW as they delineate BA as only on your turn and only once per round....where as you can get more actions in a lot of ways.
It SHOULD say you cannot Ready a BA in the Ready action description but JC has too much false confidence in their bad natural language approach to believe that people wouldn't understand.
I think the goalposts have moved from "Can I use spiritual weapon twice on my turn?" to "Can I take a bonus action without actually taking a bonus action?" and the answer to both is no. But if we squint with one eye and hold the rule book at just the right angle, we can find ONE SIMPLE TRICK that makes the word no look like the word yes.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As written, it is certainly not possible to use a bonus action spell with ready. However, the rules for readying spells are quite different from the rules for readying other actions, so it doesn't tell us much.
That's a needlessly uncharitable reading. They're the same question. And I don't think its news to anyone that "action" is an often-ambiguous word in the PHB which often requires a little analysis to understand. When I gave this same answer for moving Dust Devil off-turn the other day, no one batted an eye, but maybe y'all just skipped that thread or were blinded by my christmas light color coding :)
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I did indeed skip that thread.
But regarding the topic at hand, can we agree that controlling the spiritual weapon requires a bonus action? And can we agree that one only gets a single bonus action per turn?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Here's the logical problem I run into with the plan, and it really doesn't matter whether you can or cannot ready a bonus action:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Of course, agree 100%....
...To the same extent that Dodge requires an action, and you only get one action per turn. But if something were to let you Dodge again as not an Action (as a Bonus Action, or as a Reaction), than Dodging again would not be using two actions in one turn merely because Dodge is ordinarily an Action.
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The question isn't whether you agree that it requires a bonus action or not or whether you can have two in your turn.
The question is whether you agree or not that Readying anything moves it from it's original category to a reaction.
CC argument is that you are not using your bonus action twice because one of those is actually using your reaction as per Ready action rules.
Spiritual Weapon does not say "you may only move and attack the weapon using a Bonus Action." Injecting additional words into rules and features does often change their emphasis, as your chart so helpfully demonstrates.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As a balance issue, I don't find myself too bothered by someone using up both their action and their reaction to make another spiritual weapon attack (or other bonus action ability).
Hang on, you just agreed 100% with me in post #13. But now you don't? Functionally speaking, what is the difference between "you may only move and attack the weapon using a Bonus Action." (which you claim it does not say) and "As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it." (which is copied from the spell description)?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The difference is the emphASIS you're putting on the syllABEL to make a point that the PHB wording alone is clearly not making for you.
You only may take one bonus action on your turn.
Maintaining Spiritual Weapon gives you a special action, which you take using a bonus action on your turn.
Ready is an action you take, which allows you to take any other action that you would normally take on your turn at a later time on your turn or someone else's turn before your next turn, by using a reaction.
Those are all true. But when you start injecting "only" in there, I have to say, you're trying to say something extra. You take Dodge with an action on your turn. You don't only take Dodge as an action on your turn.
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So are you suggesting that "As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it." leaves the door open for also doing so without using your bonus action?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
In general spells (and other abilities) can't do things that they don't say they can do, so whether or not it's possible to ready a bonus action, you can't make a spiritual weapon outside of your turn, because the ability says that it's only on your turn, so if you used it outside of your turn it wouldn't actually do anything. Using a readied action on the turn you readied it strikes me as mostly intended as exploits in the first place.
If another features were to operate to let you take actions that ordinarily take bonus actions as a reaction, yes. Ready laundering an Action or Bonus Action to a Reaction is not very different from Cunning Action laundering an Action to a Bonus Action. Features interact to make things true and possible that aren't generally true or possible. That's D&D.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
ok, I think I follow you now. Thanks for explaining the angle you're coming from because I did not see it on my own.
I believe your comparison does not work in this case. Cunning action allows something that is normally an action to be taken as a bonus action because it says it does that. Spiritual weapon provides for no other way of controlling the spiritual weapon beyond using your bonus action even if it does not explicitly prohibit you from using other actions to do so. To fall back on an oft-quoted maxim, a rule does what it says it does and nothing more.
"Not all those who wander are lost"