Maybe I'm missing something about how you guys run these sorts of encounters (and how I should be running them)
It's not a question of "should be running them", whatever works for your group works for your group. But how I run them is based off the text of the rules found in this section.
Specifically under the "Other Actions" subheading, where it says, "Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats." and also further provides potential for restriction of perception being used to notice threats with text under "Noticing Threats" saying, "The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature following the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot."
Rick the ranger is navigating. Right behind him, Wally the wizard is making a map. Rose the rogue is in the middle, and Frank the fighter is in the rear. ... Which of the four in this situation get to make passive perception checks?
According to the rules, only Rose and Frank get to make perception checks - with one or both potentially not getting to because of their position within the ranks of the marching order, and whether the check is passive or active being determined by the DM.
At my table, one of these characters would likely be in the front rank of the marching order because their intent is to notice threats ahead of the party, and the other would be in the rear for the same purpose - and only the one in the proper rank for the direction of the threat would be given a perception check (and I would have that check be passive).
That all makes sense. But how would you resolve Frank using the "help" action with regards to passive perception?
So. In this discussion I'm very much concerned with Activities While Traveling. The basic thing is I found playing Tomb of Annihilation is DC:15 to not get lost during Navigation is very hard, so a 2nd person (usually our highered guide) is Helping the our Ranger Navigate so he has Advantage on that roll. The thought is, why can't two people work together to Help for Perception.
Lets say Theorically Rick the Ranger is in his favored Terrain.
Rick can simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat. Wally the Wizard is next to him making a map, doesn't get Passive Perception. Rose in in the middle rank for Notice Threat Frank is in the back rank on Notice Threat
They are all in different ranks and so can't "help" each other.
Lets change the order up a little. Rick is in his favorited Terrain simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat. Rose is next to him in the front Rank using the Help Action, giving Rick Advantange on Perception and +5 to his Passive Perception. Wally is in the middle rank totally obvious, encrossed in his map. Frank is checking over his should making sure nothing sneaks up on the party on Notice Threat.
So. In this discussion I'm very much concerned with Activities While Traveling. The basic thing is I found playing Tomb of Annihilation is DC:15 to not get lost during Navigation is very hard, so a 2nd person (usually our highered guide) is Helping the our Ranger Navigate so he has Advantage on that roll. The thought is, why can't two people work together to Help for Perception.
Lets say Theorically Rick the Ranger is in his favored Terrain.
Rick can simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat. Wally the Wizard is next to him making a map, doesn't get Passive Perception. Rose in in the middle rank for Notice Threat Frank is in the back rank on Notice Threat
They are all in different ranks and so can't "help" each other.
Lets change the order up a little. Rick is in his favorited Terrain simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat. Rose is next to him in the front Rank using the Help Action, giving Rick Advantange on Perception and +5 to his Passive Perception. Wally is in the middle rank totally obvious, encrossed in his map. Frank is checking over his should making sure nothing sneaks up on the party on Notice Threat.
Again, my question is "does Rose still get a passive perception check?" Based on the way you've broken this out, I assume the answer is "no."
This discussion makes me think that a character with the Alert feat should always be helping someone else with Notice Threat. Since they can't be surprised while conscious, they're not giving up anything by helping, right? Even if Alert Character isn't using Notice Threat, they still can't be surprised?
This discussion makes me think that a character with the Alert feat should always be helping someone else with Notice Threat. Since they can't be surprised while conscious, they're not giving up anything by helping, right? Even if Alert Character isn't using Notice Threat, they still can't be surprised?
After rereading the feat. I would consider that a reasonable interpretation of "You can't be surprised while you are conscious." Although I would say anyone with the Alert feat would benefit from doing any other action (Forage, Map, Navigate, Help) instead of Notice Threat. The same but opposite would be true of Observant feat. That character would benefit from only doing Notice Threat.
That all makes sense. But how would you resolve Frank using the "help" action with regards to passive perception?
As giving a +5 to the passive perception score of whoever he is helping, assuming they don't already have advantage from some other source - and that would leave the party in question very likely to notice threats coming from ahead of them, and completely unaware in regards to any threats that are coming up behind them because of Frank's decision where to direct his attention.
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So. In this discussion I'm very much concerned with Activities While Traveling.
The basic thing is I found playing Tomb of Annihilation is DC:15 to not get lost during Navigation is very hard, so a 2nd person (usually our highered guide) is Helping the our Ranger Navigate so he has Advantage on that roll. The thought is, why can't two people work together to Help for Perception.
Lets say Theorically Rick the Ranger is in his favored Terrain.
Rick can simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat.
Wally the Wizard is next to him making a map, doesn't get Passive Perception.
Rose in in the middle rank for Notice Threat
Frank is in the back rank on Notice Threat
They are all in different ranks and so can't "help" each other.
Lets change the order up a little.
Rick is in his favorited Terrain simultaneous Navigate and Notice Threat.
Rose is next to him in the front Rank using the Help Action, giving Rick Advantange on Perception and +5 to his Passive Perception.
Wally is in the middle rank totally obvious, encrossed in his map.
Frank is checking over his should making sure nothing sneaks up on the party on Notice Threat.
Rose's action is 'Help' not 'Notice Threat', so she doesn't get her Passive Perception.
This discussion makes me think that a character with the Alert feat should always be helping someone else with Notice Threat. Since they can't be surprised while conscious, they're not giving up anything by helping, right? Even if Alert Character isn't using Notice Threat, they still can't be surprised?
I would consider that a reasonable interpretation of "You can't be surprised while you are conscious."
Although I would say anyone with the Alert feat would benefit from doing any other action (Forage, Map, Navigate, Help) instead of Notice Threat.
The same but opposite would be true of Observant feat. That character would benefit from only doing Notice Threat.