The question that I immediately think of when reading this post is not "are the Psychic Blades magical?", but rather "is there any teleportation or interplaner travel that is not considered a magical means of travel?".
I believe the answer to the latter question is "no", but the rules never state it clearly as far as I'm aware, so it might be a worldbuilding question.
However, if teleportation is considered a magical means of travel, you can teleport through the cage with your Psychic Teleportation, provided you succeed the Charisma saving throw.
The question that I immediately think of when reading this post is not "are the Psychic Blades magical?", but rather "is there any teleportation or interplaner travel that is not considered a magical means of travel?".
I believe the answer to the latter question is "no", but the rules never state it clearly as far as I'm aware, so it might be a worldbuilding question.
However, if teleportation is considered a magical means of travel, you can teleport through the cage with your Psychic Teleportation, provided you succeed the Charisma saving throw.
We already know that the psychic blades are magical, the rules tell us that "This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties."
The other question is whether this magic blade is thinner than half an inch, in order to be able to be thrown between the bars of the cage form of the spell.
The question that I immediately think of when reading this post is not "are the Psychic Blades magical?", but rather "is there any teleportation or interplaner travel that is not considered a magical means of travel?".
I believe the answer to the latter question is "no", but the rules never state it clearly as far as I'm aware, so it might be a worldbuilding question.
However, if teleportation is considered a magical means of travel, you can teleport through the cage with your Psychic Teleportation, provided you succeed the Charisma saving throw.
We already know that the psychic blades are magical, the rules tell us that "This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties."
The other question is whether this magic blade is thinner than half an inch, in order to be able to be thrown between the bars of the cage form of the spell.
What I am saying is that, the way I read the spell, it doesn't matter whether or not the Psychic Blades are magical or not. What matters is that all teleportation is considered magical movement as far as I'm aware.
Ah, I hadn't considered the spacing of the cage bars. Whether the dimensions of a psychic blade manifested by your mind can pass through a 1/2 inch space, is not covered in the rules. This would land it firmly in DM territory. I can totally understand why a DM would consider the entire space beyond the bars to be "untargetable" by a psychic blade, due to the little space between the bars. On the other hand, the space is mechanically not behind Total Cover, as a spell can be cast through the bars.
The question that I immediately think of when reading this post is not "are the Psychic Blades magical?", but rather "is there any teleportation or interplaner travel that is not considered a magical means of travel?".
I believe the answer to the latter question is "no", but the rules never state it clearly as far as I'm aware, so it might be a worldbuilding question.
However, if teleportation is considered a magical means of travel, you can teleport through the cage with your Psychic Teleportation, provided you succeed the Charisma saving throw.
We already know that the psychic blades are magical, the rules tell us that "This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties."
The other question is whether this magic blade is thinner than half an inch, in order to be able to be thrown between the bars of the cage form of the spell.
The blade doesn’t need to reach the location. It merely needs to be thrown toward a location you can see. There is no further interaction with the blades required. The bars or wall configuration doesn’t matter.
so long as you can see the space you threw the blade at, and it’s unoccupied, you teleport there.
A soul knife could teleport past a door or wall by throw their knife and then teleport to the other side of a transparent window.
The blade doesn’t need to reach the location. It merely needs to be thrown toward a location you can see. There is no further interaction with the blades required. The bars or wall configuration doesn’t matter.
so long as you can see the space you threw the blade at, and it’s unoccupied, you teleport there.
A soul knife could teleport past a door or wall by throw their knife and then teleport to the other side of a transparent window.
That's an interesting interpretation of the language:
"throw the blade at an unoccupied space you can see, up to a number of feet away equal to 10 times the number rolled. You then teleport to that space, and the blade vanishes."
I guess some DMs would read that description differently, meaning that "at" implies flying all the way through the air to that point. In your last example the soul knife is being thrown at the door or wall, not at a space beyond that object.
Throwing at something means an attempt was made, not that it necessarily went to the location.
If I tell you I threw a ball at a tree, you wouldn’t know if I hit it or if it got there.
If I tell you I threw to a tree then you would be able to reach the reasonable conclusion that it made it to the destination.
to and at are aren’t interchangeable in the way you’re describing.
"throw the blade TO an unoccupied space you can see, up to a number of feet away equal to 10 times the number rolled. You then teleport to that space, and the blade vanishes."
I’m not sure if this feature would use targeting rules, but if they did then you’re interpretation doesn’t seem to follow those guidelines either.
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
Its a DM call as to how substantial a psychic blade might or might not be. The blade does psychic damage. It is formed by the mind of the rogue.
"You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage."
It is a shimmering blade of psychic energy. It counts as a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties.
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical? So why shouldn't it pass through a wall of force?
Anyway, this all comes down to a DM call on how they want to run it in their world.
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
[Snip]
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical?
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
Thumbs up for this one.
(I would tick the like button, but that will eventually break the images on character sheets - because dndbeyond is incapable of coding their web site properly.)
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
[Snip]
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical?
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
I'd suggest that there is a difference between "nothing can physically pass" and "nothing can pass". Clearly the world physically is applied to whatever is passing through the wall - the wall only blocks things passing through "physically". If you look up the definition of "physical", it means tangible or concrete or relating to the body rather than the mind. A psychic weapon is clearly created by the mind and may not be tangible or concrete in any way and thus can't be "physically" blocked from passing through the wall. (It is a DM call). However, if the wall was meant to block everything then it could have said "nothing can pass". Using "nothing can physically pass" implies that something that is "non-physical" CAN pass through the wall.
The wall permits light to pass through. A psychic dagger is a shimmering blade without a physical manifestation (DM call) - why shouldn't a dagger made of light be able to cross the wall?
However, I agree that the "at" discussion and deciding whether the dagger needs to actually be able to reach a location to allow teleportation is a bit pedantic ... but in the end it will be a DM call.
Could a rogue throw the dagger through a window and then teleport after it? What if there was only a small peep hole or the window just open a crack? Does the dagger hit the window, do psychic damage that has no effect and dissipate? Does the psychic dagger pass through the glass since it is immaterial? (Lots of DM rulings in these sorts of interactions that the rules text does not seem to explicitly cover).
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical?
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
I'd suggest that there is a difference between "nothing can physically pass" and "nothing can pass". Clearly the world physically is applied to whatever is passing through the wall - the wall only blocks things passing through "physically". If you look up the definition of "physical", it means tangible or concrete or relating to the body rather than the mind. A psychic weapon is clearly created by the mind and may not be tangible or concrete in any way and thus can't be "physically" blocked from passing through the wall. (It is a DM call).
I would advise DMs to consider that the knife can definitely be physically blocked by a shield.
However, if the wall was meant to block everything then it could have said "nothing can pass". Using "nothing can physically pass" implies that something that is "non-physical" CAN pass through the wall.
The very next sentence refers to teleportation. I think maybe the operative word here isn't "physically," but "through."
The space gets even smaller if you consider the cage form has bars going both horizontally AND vertically, so providing many half-inch-squares in which to try and get anything out of the cage.
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
[Snip]
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical?
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
Yea that’s definitely one perspective I suppose.
I bet it may seem silly to other people to limit a feature that seems to be a variable misty step in a game with quite a bunch of teleportation options that do exactly what I’m suggesting.
but yea let’s unnecessarily focus on how we picture the effect working instead of the features actually wording.
I think being technically correct should probably be the starting point for a lot of rules discussions before there’s deviation from what’s written. I don’t think admitting that there are several ways to interpret a given bit of text isn’t a problem. I do think it’s important to iron out how a feature a player is likely to use frequently actually works. I find that I tend to err on the side of allowing things, especially if it’s not an issue. The psi warrior gets to fly, move stuff around, and cast a very nice 5th level spell a lot. There are several instances of races and subclasses being early and potent teleportation options. Fey wanderer gets quite a few misty steps. Hell the horizon walker gets unlimited short range teleports. Why aren’t we giving this rogue the benefits of its teleport because of vague psychic knife interaction? The resource expenditure and the variable nature of it seem like enough to justification within the context of comparing to other features and classes to me, along with the way the feature seems to be carefully worded.
but who knows in a few years maybe Mr Crawford will answer the question, or perhaps an errata will release. I don’t see them making an errata for the old books now that they’re on the new iteration of the game though…
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
[Snip]
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical?
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
Yea that’s definitely one perspective I suppose.
I bet it may seem silly to other people to limit a feature that seems to be a variable misty step in a game with quite a bunch of teleportation options that do exactly what I’m suggesting.
but yea let’s unnecessarily focus on how we picture the effect working instead of the features actually wording.
I don't have a problem with it from a power level standpoint. I haven't even given any thought to whether it would be too powerful. And I don't plan to.
I just think it's absurd to say that a feature where you throw a knife doesn't behave at all like throwing a knife.
All the text describing the psychic blades is serving to distinguish the ways in which it differs from a regular knife. In all other ways, it's meant to be understood as a regular knife. That's my opinion. You can rule it however you like. I will think you're silly.
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Wasn’t there a whole long thread on this a couple of months back?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There was this thread. It started in January.
The question that I immediately think of when reading this post is not "are the Psychic Blades magical?", but rather "is there any teleportation or interplaner travel that is not considered a magical means of travel?".
I believe the answer to the latter question is "no", but the rules never state it clearly as far as I'm aware, so it might be a worldbuilding question.
However, if teleportation is considered a magical means of travel, you can teleport through the cage with your Psychic Teleportation, provided you succeed the Charisma saving throw.
We already know that the psychic blades are magical, the rules tell us that "This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties."
The other question is whether this magic blade is thinner than half an inch, in order to be able to be thrown between the bars of the cage form of the spell.
What I am saying is that, the way I read the spell, it doesn't matter whether or not the Psychic Blades are magical or not. What matters is that all teleportation is considered magical movement as far as I'm aware.
Ah, I hadn't considered the spacing of the cage bars. Whether the dimensions of a psychic blade manifested by your mind can pass through a 1/2 inch space, is not covered in the rules. This would land it firmly in DM territory. I can totally understand why a DM would consider the entire space beyond the bars to be "untargetable" by a psychic blade, due to the little space between the bars. On the other hand, the space is mechanically not behind Total Cover, as a spell can be cast through the bars.
The blade doesn’t need to reach the location. It merely needs to be thrown toward a location you can see. There is no further interaction with the blades required. The bars or wall configuration doesn’t matter.
so long as you can see the space you threw the blade at, and it’s unoccupied, you teleport there.
A soul knife could teleport past a door or wall by throw their knife and then teleport to the other side of a transparent window.
That's an interesting interpretation of the language:
"throw the blade at an unoccupied space you can see, up to a number of feet away equal to 10 times the number rolled. You then teleport to that space, and the blade vanishes."
I guess some DMs would read that description differently, meaning that "at" implies flying all the way through the air to that point. In your last example the soul knife is being thrown at the door or wall, not at a space beyond that object.
Throwing at something means an attempt was made, not that it necessarily went to the location.
If I tell you I threw a ball at a tree, you wouldn’t know if I hit it or if it got there.
If I tell you I threw to a tree then you would be able to reach the reasonable conclusion that it made it to the destination.
to and at are aren’t interchangeable in the way you’re describing.
"throw the blade TO an unoccupied space you can see, up to a number of feet away equal to 10 times the number rolled. You then teleport to that space, and the blade vanishes."
I’m not sure if this feature would use targeting rules, but if they did then you’re interpretation doesn’t seem to follow those guidelines either.
This is one of those "technically..." arguments that, yes, might be right, but surely can't be *right.*
Its a DM call as to how substantial a psychic blade might or might not be. The blade does psychic damage. It is formed by the mind of the rogue.
"You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage."
It is a shimmering blade of psychic energy. It counts as a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties.
As something made of psychic energy - does it have any physical manifestation? I would tend to rule no - it is psychic energy - not something physical.
Could you throw a psychic blade at a target on the other side of a wall of force? "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. " ... but a psychic blade isn't physical? So why shouldn't it pass through a wall of force?
Anyway, this all comes down to a DM call on how they want to run it in their world.
There's a difference between "nothing physical can pass," and "nothing can physically pass." I don't think it matters whether the blade is an object. It's still passing through space in basically the same way a normal knife would.
But I was actually referring to the argument that the knife needn't reach its destination, for you to teleport there. That's obviously dumb and anyone who rules that way is just being silly.
Thumbs up for this one.
(I would tick the like button, but that will eventually break the images on character sheets - because dndbeyond is incapable of coding their web site properly.)
I'd suggest that there is a difference between "nothing can physically pass" and "nothing can pass". Clearly the world physically is applied to whatever is passing through the wall - the wall only blocks things passing through "physically". If you look up the definition of "physical", it means tangible or concrete or relating to the body rather than the mind. A psychic weapon is clearly created by the mind and may not be tangible or concrete in any way and thus can't be "physically" blocked from passing through the wall. (It is a DM call). However, if the wall was meant to block everything then it could have said "nothing can pass". Using "nothing can physically pass" implies that something that is "non-physical" CAN pass through the wall.
The wall permits light to pass through. A psychic dagger is a shimmering blade without a physical manifestation (DM call) - why shouldn't a dagger made of light be able to cross the wall?
However, I agree that the "at" discussion and deciding whether the dagger needs to actually be able to reach a location to allow teleportation is a bit pedantic ... but in the end it will be a DM call.
Could a rogue throw the dagger through a window and then teleport after it? What if there was only a small peep hole or the window just open a crack? Does the dagger hit the window, do psychic damage that has no effect and dissipate? Does the psychic dagger pass through the glass since it is immaterial? (Lots of DM rulings in these sorts of interactions that the rules text does not seem to explicitly cover).
I would advise DMs to consider that the knife can definitely be physically blocked by a shield.
The very next sentence refers to teleportation. I think maybe the operative word here isn't "physically," but "through."
The space gets even smaller if you consider the cage form has bars going both horizontally AND vertically, so providing many half-inch-squares in which to try and get anything out of the cage.
Yea that’s definitely one perspective I suppose.
I bet it may seem silly to other people to limit a feature that seems to be a variable misty step in a game with quite a bunch of teleportation options that do exactly what I’m suggesting.
but yea let’s unnecessarily focus on how we picture the effect working instead of the features actually wording.
I think being technically correct should probably be the starting point for a lot of rules discussions before there’s deviation from what’s written. I don’t think admitting that there are several ways to interpret a given bit of text isn’t a problem. I do think it’s important to iron out how a feature a player is likely to use frequently actually works. I find that I tend to err on the side of allowing things, especially if it’s not an issue. The psi warrior gets to fly, move stuff around, and cast a very nice 5th level spell a lot. There are several instances of races and subclasses being early and potent teleportation options. Fey wanderer gets quite a few misty steps. Hell the horizon walker gets unlimited short range teleports. Why aren’t we giving this rogue the benefits of its teleport because of vague psychic knife interaction? The resource expenditure and the variable nature of it seem like enough to justification within the context of comparing to other features and classes to me, along with the way the feature seems to be carefully worded.
but who knows in a few years maybe Mr Crawford will answer the question, or perhaps an errata will release. I don’t see them making an errata for the old books now that they’re on the new iteration of the game though…
I don't have a problem with it from a power level standpoint. I haven't even given any thought to whether it would be too powerful. And I don't plan to.
I just think it's absurd to say that a feature where you throw a knife doesn't behave at all like throwing a knife.
All the text describing the psychic blades is serving to distinguish the ways in which it differs from a regular knife. In all other ways, it's meant to be understood as a regular knife. That's my opinion. You can rule it however you like. I will think you're silly.