Anyone know why Dragon Turtles do not have lair effects/actions (or legendary actions)? They are described as being very powerful and often very old (older than most dragons) yet do not get the powers that even an adult dragon has (let alone an ancient).
Also, if you have any good ideas of what to do for a Dragon Turtle's lair/lair actions please reply!
Dragon turtles don't really have lairs to speak of. They tend to reside over enormous underwater ship graveyards and a lot of the combat interactions players have with them tends to be at the surface level of the water when they attack a ship. Otherwise, if the party can fight underwater, they are fighting in open water above what might be considered a "lair."
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Let me add some context to my interest. Light spoilers for Princes of the Apocalypse follow:
Early in the campaign, my players defeated the water cult but ended up fleeing from the dragon turtle in the water temple. Since then, several months have passed in game and the players are considering returning to defeat the dragon turtle. During this time, I assume if the dragon turtle stayed put, it would have developed the lake in the temple into a lair.
Sure, but what does it do with its lair that would constitute an action? Let's see what other dragons with water-lairs can do like the Black Dragon:
Lair Actions
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can’t use the same effect two rounds in a row:
Pools of water that the dragon can see within 120 feet of it surge outward in a grasping tide. Any creature on the ground within 20 feet of such a pool must succeed on a DC 15 Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 20 feet into the water and knocked prone.
A cloud of swarming insects fills a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point the dragon chooses within 120 feet of it. The cloud spreads around corners and remains until the dragon dismisses it as an action, uses this lair action again, or dies. The cloud is lightly obscured. Any creature in the cloud when it appears must make on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature that ends its turn in the cloud takes 10 (3d6) piercing damage.
Magical darkness spreads from a point the dragon chooses within 60 feet of it, filling a 15-foot-radius sphere until the dragon dismisses it as an action, uses this lair action again, or dies. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it. If any of the effect’s area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
So I'd say for a dragon turtle, maybe keep the first ability, maybe alter the second ability to be a swarm of carnivorous small fish of some kind, and swap out the final action's darkness with a sort of steam that does about the same thing or nerfs darkvision by being more of physical sight barrier than magical darkness.
Thanks Metamongoose, those are awesome suggestions! I had glanced at the other dragons but without anything water-based I wasn't really sure where to go with it.
Anyone know why Dragon Turtles do not have lair effects/actions (or legendary actions)? They are described as being very powerful and often very old (older than most dragons) yet do not get the powers that even an adult dragon has (let alone an ancient).
I would assume that the reason why dragon turtles do not have lair effects is that they are not expected to be faced in a lair in general. All the creatures in the book which do have lair actions are the sorts of creatures that a story involving them is typically one of the adventurers daring to seek out the creature in its lair, where it is very commonly spending its time.
A dragon turtle, like many kinds of aquatic life, seems a lot more of a roaming thing - and their description mentions that they dwell in hidden caves, but talks about their sinking ships and being bargain with by pirates to be gaining the treasures they horde, supporting the idea that if you are running into a dragon turtle it is problem out and about rather than at home.
As for not having legendary actions, that's simple - they aren't legendary. Not everything that is very powerful, nor very old, is automatically also legendary. Even some of the monsters in the book that are based on real-world legends aren't given legendary actions. It's an arbitrary distinction, not one gained by any particular metric that wouldn't sound circular in reasoning.
Sure, but what does it do with its lair that would constitute an action? Let's see what other dragons with water-lairs can do like the Black Dragon:
Lair Actions
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can’t use the same effect two rounds in a row:
Pools of water that the dragon can see within 120 feet of it surge outward in a grasping tide. Any creature on the ground within 20 feet of such a pool must succeed on a DC 15 Strength saving throw or be pulled up to 20 feet into the water and knocked prone.
A cloud of swarming insects fills a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point the dragon chooses within 120 feet of it. The cloud spreads around corners and remains until the dragon dismisses it as an action, uses this lair action again, or dies. The cloud is lightly obscured. Any creature in the cloud when it appears must make on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) piercing damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature that ends its turn in the cloud takes 10 (3d6) piercing damage.
Magical darkness spreads from a point the dragon chooses within 60 feet of it, filling a 15-foot-radius sphere until the dragon dismisses it as an action, uses this lair action again, or dies. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it. If any of the effect’s area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
So I'd say for a dragon turtle, maybe keep the first ability, maybe alter the second ability to be a swarm of carnivorous small fish of some kind, and swap out the final action's darkness with a sort of steam that does about the same thing or nerfs darkvision by being more of physical sight barrier than magical darkness.
As for not having legendary actions, that's simple - they aren't legendary. Not everything that is very powerful, nor very old, is automatically also legendary. Even some of the monsters in the book that are based on real-world legends aren't given legendary actions. It's an arbitrary distinction, not one gained by any particular metric that wouldn't sound circular in reasoning.
Yup. It's basically a way to let a single monster keep up with a party of 4-6 PCs. It's even stated explicitly in Xanathar's Guide to Everything's encounter building guidelines:
If the fight is against a single opponent, your best candidate for that foe is one of the game’s legendary creatures, which are designed to fill this need.
There's a table for what CR the legendary monster should have based on the party level and size and the table goes all the way down to CR 1, so the bar isn't particularly high for what can be a legendary creature. (Anything below CR 1 wouldn't pose much of a threat to a party.) I believe the lowest in the Monster Manual is unicorns (CR 5).
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Hey Guys and Gals,
Anyone know why Dragon Turtles do not have lair effects/actions (or legendary actions)? They are described as being very powerful and often very old (older than most dragons) yet do not get the powers that even an adult dragon has (let alone an ancient).
Also, if you have any good ideas of what to do for a Dragon Turtle's lair/lair actions please reply!
Thanks!
Dragon turtles don't really have lairs to speak of. They tend to reside over enormous underwater ship graveyards and a lot of the combat interactions players have with them tends to be at the surface level of the water when they attack a ship. Otherwise, if the party can fight underwater, they are fighting in open water above what might be considered a "lair."
Let me add some context to my interest. Light spoilers for Princes of the Apocalypse follow:
Early in the campaign, my players defeated the water cult but ended up fleeing from the dragon turtle in the water temple. Since then, several months have passed in game and the players are considering returning to defeat the dragon turtle. During this time, I assume if the dragon turtle stayed put, it would have developed the lake in the temple into a lair.
Sure, but what does it do with its lair that would constitute an action? Let's see what other dragons with water-lairs can do like the Black Dragon:
So I'd say for a dragon turtle, maybe keep the first ability, maybe alter the second ability to be a swarm of carnivorous small fish of some kind, and swap out the final action's darkness with a sort of steam that does about the same thing or nerfs darkvision by being more of physical sight barrier than magical darkness.
Thanks Metamongoose, those are awesome suggestions! I had glanced at the other dragons but without anything water-based I wasn't really sure where to go with it.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
There's a table for what CR the legendary monster should have based on the party level and size and the table goes all the way down to CR 1, so the bar isn't particularly high for what can be a legendary creature. (Anything below CR 1 wouldn't pose much of a threat to a party.) I believe the lowest in the Monster Manual is unicorns (CR 5).