Find Familiar - Bat (blindsight 60' when using an action to "see" through its senses)
Fog Cloud - 120' range, 20' radius, heavily obscured
I am correct that by RAW my gnome wizard can "see" the enemies within the fog cloud spell using his familiar's blindsight?
He cannot use an attack action because he is using his action to "see" through the familiar's senses
He can direct his companions to attack squares that enemies are in. This effectively can grant the party the opportunity to attack the correct spaces while the enemy is only guessing?
He can move freely throughout the area without attacks of opportunity
He can know exactly where to place an area effect spell when his turn comes up since he knew where everyone was when his turned started and he became "blind"
Am I missing anything here? What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you in advance for your polite opinions and critiques.
I don't see anything wrong with your counter to Fog Cloud. The only thing I would add is that the second point of your reasoning is somewhat incomplete: it is definitely true that your gnome using blindsight can give directions to party members on where to attack, therefore possibly nullifying the disadvantage ato attack rolls (still a DM choice), but beware that this, at least imho, would not take away the advantage on the attacks TO said party members (granted the attacker can see them).
Other than that, everything else seems perfectly reasonable and actually supported by how blindsight works.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Nothing in the blindsight rules allow it to see through a physical obstruction like fog. In real life, bats have been known to turn away from fog as if they were approaching a wall.
Being unseen doesn't mean you're silent. In combat, it's assumed you can hear other creatures moving unless they've successfully hidden. If they haven't, you know where they are already. If they have, you (and/or your familiar) want to take the Search to find them.
I did not mean to imply that instructing the party where the enemies are would nullify the disadvantage, only the "guess work" on which square to attach. i.e. "Grog! There is an Orc on your left!" etc. Grog could then take a move action so the enemy would not know exactly where he is without using an action to search.
Perhaps the verbal instructions are a bit too much of a bend of the rules for most GMs or the Adventure League.
Nothing in the blindsight rules allow it to see through a physical obstruction like fog. In real life, bats have been known to turn away from fog as if they were approaching a wall.
Being unseen doesn't mean you're silent. In combat, it's assumed you can hear other creatures moving unless they've successfully hidden. If they haven't, you know where they are already. If they have, you (and/or your familiar) want to take the Search to find them.
I beg to differ, InquisitiveCoder.
As the spell is written, it says that Fog Cloud makes the area heavily obscured, not that it grants full cover or any other physical obstruction. If we look at what heavily obscured means we find that "A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.", blinded then states that "A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.". Considering the above, and that blindsight specifically says "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." any creature with the special sense blindsight cannot be affected by the blinded condition.
The only thing I would add is that the second point of your reasoning is somewhat incomplete: it is definitely true that your gnome using blindsight can give directions to party members on where to attack, therefore possibly nullifying the disadvantage ato attack rolls (still a DM choice)
Being unseen doesn't mean you're silent. In combat, it's assumed you can hear other creatures moving unless they've successfully hidden. If they haven't, you know where they are already. If they have, you (and/or your familiar) want to take the Search to find them.
Yeah, I'd think the Disadvantage to attacks would not be nullified by this. Fog Cloud does not make it so that you don't know where targets are, it just makes it so that you can't see them. You can't attack a target you don't know, or think, is there. You get Disadvantage to attack targets you can't see. Being told where a target is would be the same as guessing correctly where they are, when you can't perceive them. But being unable to see them, you attack at Disadvantage, as per the rules. If the target were Hidden in "plain sight" (not really plain sight, given Fog Cloud), then you'd normally have to guess where they are in order to attack them (since being Hidden means you're not making any noise, among other things). But someone with blindsightcan perceive them, even while Hidden in that way, since while they're making no noise, they're also only visibly hidden by obscurement (the fog), which blindsight can "see" through. So someone with blindsight should be able to attack w/o Disadvantage, and they should be able to tell others where to attack, in cases where those targets successfully hid "in the fog" (as opposed to behind actual cover), therefore allowing others to attack without guessing their positions, but not without Disadvantage (since they still can't see their targets).
Of course, "DM Choice" could be whatever, the DM's obviously free to change, add, or remove whatever rules they please... but in this case, I think the rules as written and intended are clear, if not immediately obvious.
Blindsight says the creature perceives its environment. That includes the fog, which is a physical thing and not just an area where there's no light. Blindsight merely gets around the need for light to reach your eyes; it's not x-ray vision.
Blindsight says the creature perceives its environment. That includes the fog, which is a physical thing and not just an area where there's no light.
The DM could certainly rule so... but applying real world physics to the game is a slippery slope, which ends up in "Aarakocra can't fly" and "greatswords must attack less often than daggers". =/
Blindsight says the creature perceives its environment. That includes the fog, which is a physical thing and not just an area where there's no light. Blindsight merely gets around the need for light to reach your eyes; it's not x-ray vision.
Agree to disagree. I base my opinion (and should I find myself in the situation, my DM ruling) on the fact that heavily obscured environments impose the blinded, reason for the character's not seeing anything and the advantage/disadvantage, against the fact that blindsight specifically states the creature does not rely on sight, therefore cannot be affected by the blinded condition.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The only thing I would add is that the second point of your reasoning is somewhat incomplete: it is definitely true that your gnome using blindsight can give directions to party members on where to attack, therefore possibly nullifying the disadvantage ato attack rolls (still a DM choice)
Being unseen doesn't mean you're silent. In combat, it's assumed you can hear other creatures moving unless they've successfully hidden. If they haven't, you know where they are already. If they have, you (and/or your familiar) want to take the Search to find them.
Yeah, I'd think the Disadvantage to attacks would not be nullified by this. Fog Cloud does not make it so that you don't know where targets are, it just makes it so that you can't see them. You can't attack a target you don't know, or think, is there. You get Disadvantage to attack targets you can't see. Being told where a target is would be the same as guessing correctly where they are, when you can't perceive them. But being unable to see them, you attack at Disadvantage, as per the rules. If the target were Hidden in "plain sight" (not really plain sight, given Fog Cloud), then you'd normally have to guess where they are in order to attack them (since being Hidden means you're not making any noise, among other things). But someone with blindsightcan perceive them, even while Hidden in that way, since while they're making no noise, they're also only visibly hidden by obscurement (the fog), which blindsight can "see" through. So someone with blindsight should be able to attack w/o Disadvantage, and they should be able to tell others where to attack, in cases where those targets successfully hid "in the fog" (as opposed to behind actual cover), therefore allowing others to attack without guessing their positions, but not without Disadvantage (since they still can't see their targets).
Of course, "DM Choice" could be whatever, the DM's obviously free to change, add, or remove whatever rules they please... but in this case, I think the rules as written and intended are clear, if not immediately obvious.
I agree that the disadvantage would apply to party members whom don't have blindsight. They would, however, have the advantage of the wizard telling them which squares to attack; potentially negating the "guessing" of where the enemy is.
Any character with blindsight would be able to function 100% normally in a fogcloud is my presumption. The drawback with this tactic is that the wizard is unable to take any actions and have the blindsight since it takes an action to engage the blindsight for one round from the bat.
Could the bat fly around and deliver touch attack spells for the caster? Hmmm
It's not "applying real world physics to the game", it's literally what the description of Blindsight says. The burden on proof should be on whomever claims the fog isn't perceivable for whatever reason.
It's not "applying real world physics to the game", it's literally what the description of Blindsight says. The burden on proof should be on whomever claims the fog isn't perceivable for whatever reason.
Rules-wise, all for cloud does is making creatures within it blind, due to making the area heavily obscured. That is all the fog floud spell does. Nowhere in the description it says it is a physical barrier or that is affect any sense other than sight. It would be logical that a creature not replying on sight to perceive its surroundings, as one that has blindsight, would not be hinders by the fog, aside the uncomfortable sensation of wetness.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I dunno, maybe I'm crazy here but it seems like the RAI would say that a creature with Blindsight can't be Blinded.
In fact, Fog Cloud says that it's creating an area of "heavy concealment" which says it "Blocks vision entirely". Well it says they use echolocation...which isn't vision...
While I'd be fine with a player being able to sense what's going on in the area of fog (or magical darkness), that doesn't translate to them being able to puppeteer their companions into negating the disadvantage. The other person is still going to have a delay, and they're still more or less guessing where to swing.
It's not "applying real world physics to the game", it's literally what the description of Blindsight says. The burden on proof should be on whomever claims the fog isn't perceivable for whatever reason.
"A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area." (From Basic Rules.)
Opaque fog blocks vision entirely. It says nothing about other senses. Blindsight allows you to perceive without using sight. The fog might be perceivable, but there's no reason to claim it also blocks blindsight other than real world physics (which would additionally depend on the specific mechanism through which the creature obtained blindsight; not all mechanisms would necessarily be impeded by fog). So a bat using echolocation might perceive the fog cloud as a solid block, but how does a Ki-rin's blindsight work? In fact, bat's blindsight already includes a limitation for being based on echolocation: it does not work when deafened. So unless the DM were to rule that clouds of fog also block sound, there is no mechanical reason within the rules of the game to prevent echolocation, or any generic blindsight, from piercing fog.
I dunno, maybe I'm crazy here but it seems like the RAI would say that a creature with Blindsight can't be Blinded.
In fact, Fog Cloud says that it's creating an area of "heavy concealment" which says it "Blocks vision entirely". Well it says they use echolocation...which isn't vision...
While I'd be fine with a player being able to sense what's going on in the area of fog (or magical darkness), that doesn't translate to them being able to puppeteer their companions into negating the disadvantage. The other person is still going to have a delay, and they're still more or less guessing where to swing.
I agree with your assessment on "puppeteering" the party. What do you think about the bat flapping around casting Shocking Grasp on people in the cloud?
I dunno, maybe I'm crazy here but it seems like the RAI would say that a creature with Blindsight can't be Blinded.
In fact, Fog Cloud says that it's creating an area of "heavy concealment" which says it "Blocks vision entirely". Well it says they use echolocation...which isn't vision...
While I'd be fine with a player being able to sense what's going on in the area of fog (or magical darkness), that doesn't translate to them being able to puppeteer their companions into negating the disadvantage. The other person is still going to have a delay, and they're still more or less guessing where to swing.
I agree with your assessment on "puppeteering" the party. What do you think about the bat flapping around casting Shocking Grasp on people in the cloud?
Shocking Grasp seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for a bat to do to a bunch of guys stumbling around in a cloud of fog.
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1st level gnome wizard
Find Familiar - Bat (blindsight 60' when using an action to "see" through its senses)
Fog Cloud - 120' range, 20' radius, heavily obscured
I am correct that by RAW my gnome wizard can "see" the enemies within the fog cloud spell using his familiar's blindsight?
Am I missing anything here? What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you in advance for your polite opinions and critiques.
Hi bshoe, welcome to the forums o/
I don't see anything wrong with your counter to Fog Cloud.
The only thing I would add is that the second point of your reasoning is somewhat incomplete: it is definitely true that your gnome using blindsight can give directions to party members on where to attack, therefore possibly nullifying the disadvantage ato attack rolls (still a DM choice), but beware that this, at least imho, would not take away the advantage on the attacks TO said party members (granted the attacker can see them).
Other than that, everything else seems perfectly reasonable and actually supported by how blindsight works.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Nothing in the blindsight rules allow it to see through a physical obstruction like fog. In real life, bats have been known to turn away from fog as if they were approaching a wall.
Being unseen doesn't mean you're silent. In combat, it's assumed you can hear other creatures moving unless they've successfully hidden. If they haven't, you know where they are already. If they have, you (and/or your familiar) want to take the Search to find them.
Thank you for the great feedback, LeK.
I did not mean to imply that instructing the party where the enemies are would nullify the disadvantage, only the "guess work" on which square to attach. i.e. "Grog! There is an Orc on your left!" etc. Grog could then take a move action so the enemy would not know exactly where he is without using an action to search.
Perhaps the verbal instructions are a bit too much of a bend of the rules for most GMs or the Adventure League.
If we look at what heavily obscured means we find that "A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.", blinded then states that "A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.".
Considering the above, and that blindsight specifically says "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." any creature with the special sense blindsight cannot be affected by the blinded condition.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
It's not "applying real world physics to the game", it's literally what the description of Blindsight says. The burden on proof should be on whomever claims the fog isn't perceivable for whatever reason.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I dunno, maybe I'm crazy here but it seems like the RAI would say that a creature with Blindsight can't be Blinded.
In fact, Fog Cloud says that it's creating an area of "heavy concealment" which says it "Blocks vision entirely". Well it says they use echolocation...which isn't vision...
While I'd be fine with a player being able to sense what's going on in the area of fog (or magical darkness), that doesn't translate to them being able to puppeteer their companions into negating the disadvantage. The other person is still going to have a delay, and they're still more or less guessing where to swing.
Was lucky enough to grab Crawford's attention and you guys are right about fog not blocking Blindsight into it.
"Blindsight lets you perceive your surroundings, including environmental phenomena, yet a phenomenon that impedes only sight (it doesn't provide cover) doesn't work against blindsight. You'd essentially perceive a person in heavy fog as if they were surrounded by static."
My bad.
Damn, that was fast! :D
Now if he'd only respond to my tweet regarding Prestidigitation being used to create tastes in someone's mouth...