So We were playing normally and we had a situation
One of the player was surrounded by monsters, so as I was first on initiative and couldnt do anything I readied a dust devil spell so at the first attack the other player received I cast the dust devil centered on that player. So at the end of the monsters turn it could move them all and could attack the player on her turn
Initiative
Me ( I readied a spell)
Monsters (they attacked the player)
The other player (almost dead)
So the DM said the monsters finished their turn before the Dust devils effect could work.
As he stated that it says Right after the trigger FINISHES, and the creatures attack already finished and they finished their turn, so I casted the spell but it couldnt take the effect because they finished their turn next to the attack............
So.................... Correct me if Im wrong about the use of the ready action. In my opinion the ready and the attacks happens at the same time as there is no way they could finish their turn without me doing the spell I readied
Well that was the idea, to throw the creatures away from the party member as was the only spell I could cast then and gave her the opportunity to retreat without opp attacks and do some damage
Well that was the idea, to throw the creatures away from the party member as was the only spell I could cast then and gave her the opportunity to retreat without opp attacks and do some damage
Yeah, imho, you should be right. But Now that i think about it, there was no reason to ready the spell. you could have cast it normally to achieve the effect you wanted.
There is info about this from WOTC on the official D&D podcast. It says that you have to state for your ready action 2 things. First you have to state what the trigger is and then what you are going to do as your action in response to that trigger.
For example,
If the Orc moves closer to us.
I will cast ensnaring roots.
So, your spell could potentially happen before the monsters or after depending on your trigger. Also, the spell in question can effect this since it might take effect at the end of the monsters turn or before.
So We were playing normally and we had a situation
One of the player was surrounded by monsters, so as I was first on initiative and couldnt do anything I readied a dust devil spell so at the first attack the other player received I cast the dust devil centered on that player. So at the end of the monsters turn it could move them all and could attack the player on her turn
Initiative
Me ( I readied a spell)
Monsters (they attacked the player)
The other player (almost dead)
So the DM said the monsters finished their turn before the Dust devils effect could work.
As he stated that it says Right after the trigger FINISHES, and the creatures attack already finished and they finished their turn, so I casted the spell but it couldnt take the effect because they finished their turn next to the attack............
So.................... Correct me if Im wrong about the use of the ready action. In my opinion the ready and the attacks happens at the same time as there is no way they could finish their turn without me doing the spell I readied
Readied actions take place after the triggering effect happens, so the attacks would have still occurred (as all the creatures were acting at the same initiative, you could argue that they all attacked at once). However, I'd argue that ending a turn is a part of a turn, like it is in EVERY SINGLE turn-based game EVER. Figure there's 3 phases to a turn, the start of the turn (used for damaging effects and death saving throws), the meat of the turn (attack, move, bonus action, concentration, etc...), and the end of the turn (damaging effects and saving throws).
If the monsters in question had multiple attacks available, your readied action would have occurred after the first attacks and then the second attacks would've occurred. He could have also chosen to move the monsters if they had any movement left (it sounds like they had full movement) or he could've done any spells/abilities as bonus actions. His CHOOSING not to do any of those things was the official ending of the turn.
Another example: I cast a spell/attack and then don't say another word afterwords. What's going to happen? People are going to ask me if I'm done; likely the DM. The next person in initiative isn't going to just go, assuming that I'm done with my turn. Even if I were to make my attacks, pull out my phone and start playing another game (they'll think I'm a ******, but they'll also still ask me if I'm done). I have to officially state that my turn is over, unless something would otherwise prevent me from taking any more actions.
TL;DR: You're in the right, that your spell happens BEFORE the end of the turn; however, he was correct that it happens AFTER the effect of the triggering attack (unless otherwise stated, like with abilities that affect AC). Most importantly, this specific spell casting occurs DURING the enemy's turn. While the effect takes place at the end of the turn. It sounds like your DM is one of those people that cried "NO TAG BACKS!" at recess after it already happened. "Nuh uh, I ended my turn before you could cast that!"
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I don't understand those types of DMs. I love it when my players ready actions to try to exploit something like that.
Ran a dungeon out of the back of the DMG in an earlier edition (3 or 4, can't remember) and there was a rolling boulder trap that basically circled the room over and over again until they hit a switch by where the main bad guy was. There was a small 1 room building (like a guard shack) in the center that the stone was rolling around. The rogue ran behind the boulder as it rolled by and got into the middle building, killed all the guards/archers inside the building and then climbed on top of it. The rest of the party was fighting towards the stairs where the lever (and the boss) was, thus the boss's concentration was on that stairwell and not on the building in the middle. The rogue attempted to leap across the chasm between the shack and the boss's platform, but wanted to use the rock as a stepping stone (because it might've otherwise been too far for him to jump).
Sure, the fact that the boulder was moving means the physics behind such a maneuver would've been pretty much impossible, but it's such a cool idea that I said **** it, let him roll a Tumbling/Acrobatics/whatever to see if he'd make it (he did) and gave him a free sneak attack on the boss, because there's no way in hell he was expecting THAT.
So, yeah, I'd have definitely allowed it. Though I'd probably have made it happen after the very first attack, and had the remaining enemies re-plan what they were going to do (maybe they would've still attacked, or maybe they would've looked towards another more easily accessible target.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Yeah, in general it's much better to reward player inventiveness, than it is to stick to the letter of the rules - it creates a much better narrative and is more rewarding for all involved.
I think in defense of your case, the monsters "attack" would be the attack roll. Not the damage roll. I was under the impression that if you "ready" once the trigger happens, whatever your action is gets inserted and fulfilled. Take the example of a situation in my campaign that happened 2 sessions ago.
The party is under attack by Perytons (flying) they are on open planes mounted on horses. The barbarian, lacking ranged weapons simply "readies" his attack for when the birds are in range of him (which really would only be to attack)
Peryton "attacks" Barbarian
Barbarian makes a full melee attack and does damage
Peryton follows through with attack. and does damage
so for you it seems to me should go something like.
Readies the spell
monsters attack
your spell happens
monsters roll for damage (if they save or something)
tell your DM not to be such a rule Nazi lol. Its the player's story, so theres no point, he understood why you did what you did. As the rule master its important for him to clarify your intent so HE knows how the situation should play out. If your intent is not supplemented by the rules its the DMs job to help you understand them, not punish you for it.
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“The harder the world, the fiercer the honour.” ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice
But in that case, there is no need to ready the spell. If you are the first in the initiative, you cast the spell as first, then the monsters attack. as soon as they complete the attacks, the dust devil spell shows its effects on the monsters.
But in that case, there is no need to ready the spell. If you are the first in the initiative, you cast the spell as first, then the monsters attack. as soon as they complete the attacks, the dust devil spell shows its effects on the monsters.
I think in regards to him being first, he had no knowledge of whether the monsters would actually attack or not and may not have wanted to waste the spell if the monsters did something else. Or if the spell had certain range requirements. I don't think those details are outlined. You are not mistaken however, if all the criteria were met, i'm sure he would have cast the spell on his turn. He should have also been picked to succeed over the monsters in that case because using a ready action skips your turn so you can use it more advantageously.
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“The harder the world, the fiercer the honour.” ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice
I don't understand those types of DMs. I love it when my players ready actions to try to exploit something like that.
Ran a dungeon out of the back of the DMG in an earlier edition (3 or 4, can't remember) and there was a rolling boulder trap that basically circled the room over and over again until they hit a switch by where the main bad guy was. There was a small 1 room building (like a guard shack) in the center that the stone was rolling around. The rogue ran behind the boulder as it rolled by and got into the middle building, killed all the guards/archers inside the building and then climbed on top of it. The rest of the party was fighting towards the stairs where the lever (and the boss) was, thus the boss's concentration was on that stairwell and not on the building in the middle. The rogue attempted to leap across the chasm between the shack and the boss's platform, but wanted to use the rock as a stepping stone (because it might've otherwise been too far for him to jump).
Sure, the fact that the boulder was moving means the physics behind such a maneuver would've been pretty much impossible, but it's such a cool idea that I said **** it, let him roll a Tumbling/Acrobatics/whatever to see if he'd make it (he did) and gave him a free sneak attack on the boss, because there's no way in hell he was expecting THAT.
So, yeah, I'd have definitely allowed it. Though I'd probably have made it happen after the very first attack, and had the remaining enemies re-plan what they were going to do (maybe they would've still attacked, or maybe they would've looked towards another more easily accessible target.
I call those type of DM's ****** Masters. Dude, let us have fun and vice versa. Those monsters, creatures and evil PC's that we run are MADE to be thwarted with PC ingenuity. I mean, if my PC's come up with a crazy plan that skirts the rules...screw it. Go get em! I'm all for storytelling over rules any day. Hence, that's why 5E gave us inspiration! I would have allowed it too.
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Yes, in that case one of the players fell a trap. and at the end were some fungi monsters that were on a fungi field, the thing was that I missed my perception check but others on the group saw the monsters. So by roleplay I wasnt going to waste a 2nd spell on monsters I "couldnt" see, so I readied my action to cast that spell when something attacked the player in question
i can attack twice with my fighter when an bandit archer show yourself and attack some one or leave your cover hide etc... or attack once? fighter lvl6 have extra attack what can i do for hiding archer behind cover with my fighter then?
i can attack twice with my fighter when an bandit archer show yourself and attack some one or leave your cover hide etc... or attack once? fighter lvl6 have extra attack what can i do for hiding archer behind cover with my fighter then?
Not sure I got your question but I try to answer.
Your fighter can attack only once with his action (unless you have the extra attack feature). If your target leaves your reach, you can attack one more time with the opportunity attack, using your reaction.
but extra attack feature wrote youvcan attack twice when you use attack action and your turn? and ready action says this action trigger like an reaction so you cant take any other reaction
this case i use longbow too so enemy 60 feet away from me
but extra attack feature wrote youvcan attack twice when you use attack action and your turn? and ready action says this action trigger like an reaction so you cant take any other reaction
Sure, with extra attack, using only your action, you attack twice. If you are using the ready action, you will spend your reaction to use your action. So yes, with the ready action you can attack twice because you are spending your action.
but extra attack feature wrote youvcan attack twice when you use attack action and your turn? and ready action says this action trigger like an reaction so you cant take any other reaction
Sure, with extra attack, using only your action, you attack twice. If you are using the ready action, you will spend your reaction to use your action. So yes, with the ready action you can attack twice because you are spending your action.
No, he can't attack twice as reaction. Extra Attack ability reads as:
""Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn." It was monster's turn. "
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So We were playing normally and we had a situation
One of the player was surrounded by monsters, so as I was first on initiative and couldnt do anything I readied a dust devil spell so at the first attack the other player received I cast the dust devil centered on that player. So at the end of the monsters turn it could move them all and could attack the player on her turn
Initiative
Me ( I readied a spell)
Monsters (they attacked the player)
The other player (almost dead)
So the DM said the monsters finished their turn before the Dust devils effect could work.
As he stated that it says Right after the trigger FINISHES, and the creatures attack already finished and they finished their turn, so I casted the spell but it couldnt take the effect because they finished their turn next to the attack............
So.................... Correct me if Im wrong about the use of the ready action. In my opinion the ready and the attacks happens at the same time as there is no way they could finish their turn without me doing the spell I readied
The problem is not on th ready action, but on the spell Dust Devil.
The spell says that the creatures have to do th saving throw at the end of they turn. So correctly things go like this:
You ready the spell
The monsters attack
Before they complete the attack, you can the spell, but its effects go effective at the end of their turn.
So they complete the attack, your party member suffers, and then Dust Devil shows its effects.
Well that was the idea, to throw the creatures away from the party member as was the only spell I could cast then and gave her the opportunity to retreat without opp attacks and do some damage
There is info about this from WOTC on the official D&D podcast. It says that you have to state for your ready action 2 things. First you have to state what the trigger is and then what you are going to do as your action in response to that trigger.
For example,
If the Orc moves closer to us.
I will cast ensnaring roots.
So, your spell could potentially happen before the monsters or after depending on your trigger. Also, the spell in question can effect this since it might take effect at the end of the monsters turn or before.
If the monsters in question had multiple attacks available, your readied action would have occurred after the first attacks and then the second attacks would've occurred. He could have also chosen to move the monsters if they had any movement left (it sounds like they had full movement) or he could've done any spells/abilities as bonus actions. His CHOOSING not to do any of those things was the official ending of the turn.
Another example: I cast a spell/attack and then don't say another word afterwords. What's going to happen? People are going to ask me if I'm done; likely the DM. The next person in initiative isn't going to just go, assuming that I'm done with my turn. Even if I were to make my attacks, pull out my phone and start playing another game (they'll think I'm a ******, but they'll also still ask me if I'm done). I have to officially state that my turn is over, unless something would otherwise prevent me from taking any more actions.
TL;DR: You're in the right, that your spell happens BEFORE the end of the turn; however, he was correct that it happens AFTER the effect of the triggering attack (unless otherwise stated, like with abilities that affect AC). Most importantly, this specific spell casting occurs DURING the enemy's turn. While the effect takes place at the end of the turn. It sounds like your DM is one of those people that cried "NO TAG BACKS!" at recess after it already happened. "Nuh uh, I ended my turn before you could cast that!"
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
sloporion, LOL basically that was what happened
I don't understand those types of DMs. I love it when my players ready actions to try to exploit something like that.
Ran a dungeon out of the back of the DMG in an earlier edition (3 or 4, can't remember) and there was a rolling boulder trap that basically circled the room over and over again until they hit a switch by where the main bad guy was. There was a small 1 room building (like a guard shack) in the center that the stone was rolling around. The rogue ran behind the boulder as it rolled by and got into the middle building, killed all the guards/archers inside the building and then climbed on top of it. The rest of the party was fighting towards the stairs where the lever (and the boss) was, thus the boss's concentration was on that stairwell and not on the building in the middle. The rogue attempted to leap across the chasm between the shack and the boss's platform, but wanted to use the rock as a stepping stone (because it might've otherwise been too far for him to jump).
Sure, the fact that the boulder was moving means the physics behind such a maneuver would've been pretty much impossible, but it's such a cool idea that I said **** it, let him roll a Tumbling/Acrobatics/whatever to see if he'd make it (he did) and gave him a free sneak attack on the boss, because there's no way in hell he was expecting THAT.
So, yeah, I'd have definitely allowed it. Though I'd probably have made it happen after the very first attack, and had the remaining enemies re-plan what they were going to do (maybe they would've still attacked, or maybe they would've looked towards another more easily accessible target.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Yeah, in general it's much better to reward player inventiveness, than it is to stick to the letter of the rules - it creates a much better narrative and is more rewarding for all involved.
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I think in defense of your case, the monsters "attack" would be the attack roll. Not the damage roll. I was under the impression that if you "ready" once the trigger happens, whatever your action is gets inserted and fulfilled. Take the example of a situation in my campaign that happened 2 sessions ago.
The party is under attack by Perytons (flying) they are on open planes mounted on horses. The barbarian, lacking ranged weapons simply "readies" his attack for when the birds are in range of him (which really would only be to attack)
Peryton "attacks" Barbarian
Barbarian makes a full melee attack and does damage
Peryton follows through with attack. and does damage
so for you it seems to me should go something like.
Readies the spell
monsters attack
your spell happens
monsters roll for damage (if they save or something)
tell your DM not to be such a rule Nazi lol. Its the player's story, so theres no point, he understood why you did what you did. As the rule master its important for him to clarify your intent so HE knows how the situation should play out. If your intent is not supplemented by the rules its the DMs job to help you understand them, not punish you for it.
― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice
please correct me if I am mistaken.
But in that case, there is no need to ready the spell. If you are the first in the initiative, you cast the spell as first, then the monsters attack. as soon as they complete the attacks, the dust devil spell shows its effects on the monsters.
― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Yes, in that case one of the players fell a trap. and at the end were some fungi monsters that were on a fungi field, the thing was that I missed my perception check but others on the group saw the monsters. So by roleplay I wasnt going to waste a 2nd spell on monsters I "couldnt" see, so I readied my action to cast that spell when something attacked the player in question
i want to ask
i can attack twice with my fighter when an bandit archer show yourself and attack some one or leave your cover hide etc... or attack once? fighter lvl6 have extra attack what can i do for hiding archer behind cover with my fighter then?
but extra attack feature wrote youvcan attack twice when you use attack action and your turn? and ready action says this action trigger like an reaction so you cant take any other reaction
this case i use longbow too so enemy 60 feet away from me
"