[...] As an amusing aside, it is interesting that "5 feet" is hard-coded into the grappling rules instead of saying "within reach". Technically, this causes these features to not interact at all:
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
But this is one of those details that just needs extremely obvious errata and can just be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. [...]
To me, that "within 5 feet of you" is general (the normal value), so the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature overrides it to become "within 15 feet of you".
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
Also, Reach is defined in the Rules Glossary:
Reach
A creature has a reach of 5 feet unless a rule says otherwise.
That "unless a rule says otherwise" could be the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature.
The reach of 15' lasts--uninterupted and unchanged--for 10 minutes. Once elemental attunement is active, nothing shortens the monk's physical reach until the 10 minutes are over (or if the monk gains an unfavorable condition, such as incappacitated).
This is simply not true.
The Elemental Attunement feature does NOT provide a benefit that reads something like: "Reach. Your reach is 10 feet greater than normal."
Instead, it provides a benefit that reads like this: "Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal."
That's because it does not affect your reach with spells, swords, polearms, etc.
Could they have phrased it as "the reach of your unarmed strikes is 10 feet greater than normal"? Sure. Would that wording make any mechanical difference? No.
You are asserting that the range of the character's grapples for the purposes of determining if the grapple can be held is not the range at which the character can make grapple attacks.
And that's inconsistent with both the text of the rules and common sense.
Now, the OP does make a good case due to the wording of the grappling rules stating that "The condition also ends . . . if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range. It's hard to know what that means exactly, but it's definitely not anything that has to do with the current reach of the character.
What else could it be? The range of the grapple is the range at which you can make grapple attacks. Which is defined by the reach of your unarmed strikes, barring some other ability.
As an amusing aside, it is interesting that "5 feet" is hard-coded into the grappling rules instead of saying "within reach". Technically, this causes these features to not interact at all:
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
Huh?
Seriously, what?
The rules define the default reach of an unarmed strike, just like it defines the default reach of a weapon attack. Arguably, it's redundant to do so, since the basic reach definition defines it as five feet, but so what? The weapon table also defines the reach of melee attacks as five feet. If I could be bothered to look at the spells section, I bet it's defined as five feet there, too.
The rules define your default reach. The ability extends the reach. Perfectly normal, not conflicting in any way. It's how the rules of 5e work.
Amusingly, I've always read Grapple as Wrestle. In other words, relying on footwork, balance, body weight, stance - and so on - and sure, involving the hands as well. But the hands could never wrestle anyone to the ground as I see it.
So to me the whole discussion is weird, because ... I don't see how you can Grapple at range at all, unless your whole body shifts over there.
That's certainly the default idea of grappling, with the idea that once you have somebody in a hold, you only need a free hand to maintain it.
Unrealistic, perhaps, but that's D&D for you.
However, they're abstracted sufficiently that they can be used for any sort of attack that holds somebody -- tentacles, grasping vine, etc.
In the case of elements monks, they're doing the sort of thing often seen in the Avatar: the Last Airbender TV show, where characters often hold somebody with a stream of water, or bonds of earth or ice, or that sort of thing.
You can flavor your grapples to be temporary ice chunks that hold your foes in place or swirls of air that catch your enemies and prevent them from moving.
Ah. Yea, I see. It seems like if the reach is instant - lasting only for the attack - then the ice would be the same. But I see how it get's rid of my 'wrestling' interpretation =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The reach of 15' lasts--uninterupted and unchanged--for 10 minutes. Once elemental attunement is active, nothing shortens the monk's physical reach until the 10 minutes are over (or if the monk gains an unfavorable condition, such as incappacitated).
This is simply not true.
The Elemental Attunement feature does NOT provide a benefit that reads something like: "Reach. Your reach is 10 feet greater than normal."
Instead, it provides a benefit that reads like this: "Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal."
Elemental Attunement feature does not provide a benefit that reads something like "Your reach is 10 feet greater than normal" because it doesn't apply when you when you are wielding a Pike or any other weapon. It doesn't apply when making a touch spell.
I would argue, however, the rules don't say someone's reach changes at any point in the round. For example, I don't think anyone would argue that someone wielding a pike has Reach when they attack but not when they're not attacking. It's a pike. It's always 12 feet long. It doesn't shrink after you roll your attack roll and embiggen when someone tries to run away from you.
And the pike's Reach weapon property is worded the same as the monk's ability:
"Reach: A Reach weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for Opportunity Attacks with it." By the literal logic of that sentence, you don't have Reach when you're not attacking or you're not determining an opportunity attack. I really don't think anyone would say the pike's reach changes at any point in the round. So why would the reach change for the monk's ability?
The effect of Reach with a Pike applies when you are wielding it.
The reach from Elemental Attunement applies when you are "wielding" your unarmed strikes.
[...] As an amusing aside, it is interesting that "5 feet" is hard-coded into the grappling rules instead of saying "within reach". Technically, this causes these features to not interact at all:
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
But this is one of those details that just needs extremely obvious errata and can just be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. [...]
To me, that "within 5 feet of you" is general (the normal value), so the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature overrides it to become "within 15 feet of you".
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
No. It doesn't work that way.
It's important to always be really careful when thinking about whether or not the Exceptions Supersede General Rules rule applies to any particular situation. Explicitly, that rule ONLY applies:
When an exception and a general rule disagree
In this case, we have one rule that says:
"an Unarmed Strike [is] a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you."
and another rule that says:
"Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you."
Notice that the first rule doesn't say anything at all about reach. As written (incorrectly -- needs errata), it's not contingent upon reach in any way. So, the second rule does not interact with the first rule at all. The second rule might as well say that your Speed is doubled. Or that your Armor Class is reduced. Or that your Hit Points are increased by 10. None of those possibilities would change the fact that the default rule for an Unarmed Strike says that it is a melee attack against a target within 5 feet of you.
Again, to be clear, we all know that the text should say "within reach" instead of "within 5 feet of you" so we should rule it that way in our games. I was just pointing out how the rules are actually currently written.
Could they have phrased it as "the reach of your unarmed strikes is 10 feet greater than normal"? Sure. Would that wording make any mechanical difference? No.
That wording still doesn't work for the same reasons.
It's true that it's difficult to come up with concise wording that aligns with your interpretation. You seem to want a base reach of 15 feet that persists while not making any attack and also holds true while making an unarmed strike but reverts back to 5 feet while making an attack with a weapon or when casting a Touch range spell. Unfortunately, the current wording does not get there. The current wording makes the modified reach contingent upon being in the process of making an Unarmed Strike. That works out perfectly fine for an Unarmed Strike for damage or for a Shove attack since those types of attacks are fully resolved immediately upon making that attack. It doesn't work for grappling since grappling is an ongoing activity which persists after the process of making the attempt to grapple has ended.
Just like other ongoing activities such as hiding or holding your breath under water, you must continue to meet the prerequisites for performing that activity on an ongoing basis. You don't get to just take a snapshot in time at the moment that the activity is initiated and assume that its status remains the same regardless of how things change during the timeframe of that ongoing activity.
The range of the grapple is the range at which you can make grapple attacks.
It is true that the term "the grapple's range" is not tightly defined, but this interpretation is by far the least convincing. The text where this term is used is discussing scenarios whereby the grapple is ended, not the scenarios whereby it is initiated. It is talking about the distance between the grappler and the grappled at the moment that the grapple might end. This check is most likely being made during some moment while you are NOT "making" an attack. For example, in many cases this would be checked when it is not even your turn.
As an amusing aside, it is interesting that "5 feet" is hard-coded into the grappling rules instead of saying "within reach". Technically, this causes these features to not interact at all:
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
Huh?
Seriously, what?
The rules define the default reach of an unarmed strike, just like it defines the default reach of a weapon attack. Arguably, it's redundant to do so, since the basic reach definition defines it as five feet, but so what? The weapon table also defines the reach of melee attacks as five feet. If I could be bothered to look at the spells section, I bet it's defined as five feet there, too.
The rules define your default reach. The ability extends the reach. Perfectly normal, not conflicting in any way. It's how the rules of 5e work.
Look again.
This definition of an Unarmed Strike, as currently written (incorrectly -- it needs errata), never actually uses the term "reach" anywhere. It literally defines the term "Unarmed Strike" to be a certain type of attack against a target that's within 5 feet of you.
It's hard-coded. And it shouldn't be. By this definition, a monster that has long arms and a natural reach of 10 feet is restricted to making Unarmed Strikes against targets that are within 5 feet of it. Reach is simply not part of the definition any more than a creature's speed or height or intelligence score. It's an odd error by the author and it needs to be changed.
It's eerily similar to when the first person made the claim that the Invisible Condition doesn't actually say that it makes you invisible. The common knee-jerk reaction was "Huh? Seriously, what? Of course it makes you invisible! It's in the name!" . . . and then people actually went back and read the text for that Condition -- and it actually does not say that it makes you invisible. There are weird things like this in the rules all over the place.
A Reach weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for Opportunity Attacks with it.
Apart from calling out opportunity attacks, the wording for the reach weapon property is the same.
Let's ignore the hardcoded 5 feet for unarmed strikes and that maintaining a grapple requires you to be with a grapple's range, which still has no explicit link to reach. The wording is similar and if the effect means the monk can attack at 15 feet, then the grapple's range should be extended as well. RAW clearly doesn't support it but a purely RAW interpretation makes the effect useless. So what is RAI?
The rules indicate that melee attacks attack a target within your reach which Unarmed Strike are.
Melee Attacks
A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike. Many monsters make melee attacks with claws, teeth, or other body parts. A few spells also involve melee attacks.
Reach
A creature has a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet when making a melee attack. Certain creatures have melee attacks with a reach greater than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
Let's ignore the hardcoded 5 feet for unarmed strikes and that maintaining a grapple requires you to be with a grapple's range, which still has no explicit link to reach. The wording is similar and if the effect means the monk can attack at 15 feet, then the grapple's range should be extended as well. RAW clearly doesn't support it but a purely RAW interpretation makes the effect useless. So what is RAI?
I agree with this last part. RAW clearly doesn't support it indeed. The effect is indeed mostly useless for the grapple option, but it works perfectly fine for the damage and the shove options.
As for the RAI, that's unclear from the text. When I first read the subclass along with the feature in question, I picture the character being "imbued" with elemental energy as something that is mainly internal -- perhaps some evidence of this exists as some sort of shimmering glow immediately surrounding the creature, perhaps within an inch or two of the creature's body. Then, when you make an Unarmed Strike, elemental energy extends from you. I picture this like some portion of that shimmering glow organizes itself into some sort of beam of energy that instantaneously extends outwards an additional 10 feet in that moment, immediately fully resolves and then retracts back inward towards itself again instantly. Like a boxer who unleashes a lightning-fast jab right between his opponent's eyes, but with a long beam of elemental energy. How does that jive with this energy holding and maintaining a long distance grapple over time for turn after turn? It doesn't.
On the other hand, there seems to be some evidence of some informal publications from the game designers that suggest that this subclass is meant to have a fighting tactic available to him where he can maintain a long distance grapple, forcing the enemy to zero speed, and then continue to beat on that enemy with long distance melee attacks on future turns while that enemy cannot reach you and cannot move. The thing is, if they had actually intended for it to work that way then they should have written it that way.
Context matters, so it's clear the interaction is allowed and the feature works properly.
Context does matter in many cases. For example, when you come across a word that could mean a couple of different things, you can see how it is used in the sentence and how it fits into the rest of the paragraph as context clues for what the word means. When a rule is ambiguous you can use context clues to determine the best interpretation.
Context doesn't really come into play here if we are talking RAW. The rules clearly state that the reach is extended while you make an Unarmed Strike and the rules also clearly state that an Unarmed Strike is, by definition, "a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you". There is nothing to contextualize here. It's not ambiguous. It says what it says. Nothing about any context would change the meaning of these rules as currently written.
The rules indicate that melee attacks attack a target within your reach which Unarmed Strike are.
Melee Attacks
A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike. Many monsters make melee attacks with claws, teeth, or other body parts. A few spells also involve melee attacks.
Reach
A creature has a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet when making a melee attack. Certain creatures have melee attacks with a reach greater than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
If we are discussing the Rules as Written, the rules actually indicate:
-- by default, melee attacks attack a target within your reach.
-- A particular type of melee attack, called an Unarmed Strike, "involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you".
__________
Honestly, I brought up the "within 5 feet" thing as an amusing aside that I thought people would find interesting. It was an indisputable statement of fact. And it has some strange RAW implications if we were actually forced to play very strictly according to the RAW. Once again, none of us should play it that way. It is an error in the text. When I mentioned it, I honestly expected the community reaction to basically be "Oh wow! Hey, you're right! They really should not have written it like that!" Instead, the general reaction has been . . . pretty strange to say the least.
On the other hand, there seems to be some evidence of some informal publications from the game designers that suggest that this subclass is meant to have a fighting tactic available to him where he can maintain a long distance grapple, forcing the enemy to zero speed, and then continue to beat on that enemy with long distance melee attacks on future turns while that enemy cannot reach you and cannot move. The thing is, if they had actually intended for it to work that way then they should have written it that way.
Analyzing RAI is an inherent step in adjudicating the rules of the game. If it is clear that the developer's intent was for a certain interaction, and you are aware of that intent, that interaction should be adhered to unless you have a specific reason to not do so. Sage Advice supposedly adjudicates on RAW and sometimes RAI at the least.
Analyzing RAI is an inherent step in adjudicating the rules of the game. If it is clear that the developer's intent was for a certain interaction, and you are aware of that intent, that interaction should be adhered to unless you have a specific reason to not do so. Sage Advice supposedly adjudicates on RAW and sometimes RAI at the least.
That's fair. I would generally agree with this in cases where the rules are ambiguous. When they are not ambiguous then they are what they are, regardless of intent. But we can always play however we want, of course. For example, regardless of how closely I would want to run a game according to the RAW, I would never enforce the rule that states that an Unarmed Strike is made against a target that is within 5 feet of you because I know for sure that that is just a blatant error by the authors and I know that the intent is otherwise, even though that rule as currently written is not ambiguous. So yeah, this forum is generally about getting to the bottom of what the rules actually are as written. But discussions about the RAI have their place and understanding RAI can indeed be very helpful in determining how best to run a game.
"Hold them out of reach" isn't accurate. If you're holding them in a grapple, then your grappling appendage is subject to melee attack or touch spells.
"Hold them out of reach" isn't accurate. If you're holding them in a grapple, then your grappling appendage is subject to melee attack or touch spells.
Technically RAW , if a Monk is grappling you from 15 feet away and you have a reach of 5 feet, the Monk isn't within your reach. The Monk doesn't occupy it's space and all intervening space between you and it for example.
Without special rules to affect a grappling appendage such as Roper 's Tentacles , it doesn't have AC, HP etc...
Having said that, DM often rule in favor anyway.
Tentacle.Melee Attack Roll: +7, reach 60 ft. Hit: The target has the Grappled condition (escape DC 14) from one of six tentacles, and the target has the Poisoned condition until the grapple ends.
The tentacle can be damaged, freeing a creature it has Grappled when destroyed (AC 20, HP 10, Immunity to Poison and Psychic damage). Damaging the tentacle deals no damage to the roper, and a destroyed tentacle regrows at the start of the roper’s next turn.
"Hold them out of reach" isn't accurate. If you're holding them in a grapple, then your grappling appendage is subject to melee attack or touch spells.
Technically, the tentacles attack is a melee weapon attack that has a range of 15 feet. The octopus is still located in and occupies its own squares (4 squares for a large beast I believe) and this attack can target something up to 3 squares away from that. So, the RAW is that a hunter shark in this situation would not be able to attack the octopus since the hunter shark's attack only has a range of 5 feet. Yes, it's weird that the shark wouldn't be able to attack the tentacles that are holding it, so that seems like the sort of thing that a DM could overrule based on the situation, but it would be up to the DM to deviate from the RAW.
According to the rules for Grappling, the main option that the hunter shark would have in this situation is to use its action to attempt to escape the grapple with a contested strength check, in which case it would have a slightly better than 50/50 chance to succeed, but it would burn its action in the process.
The octopus could definitely drag the shark onto land by moving at half speed while maintaining the grapple.
This is one of the more common rules scenarios that I've found to really frustrate people, especially when the grappler has reach. People want to attack whatever limb/tentacle/appendage is holding them because that is what happens in every single fantasy movie and book, but the rules say you can only see and attack the "body." This really annoys some people, and if your DM is one of them it is well within their power to start throwing you into situations that confound this tactic in one way or another.
[...] As an amusing aside, it is interesting that "5 feet" is hard-coded into the grappling rules instead of saying "within reach". Technically, this causes these features to not interact at all:
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
But this is one of those details that just needs extremely obvious errata and can just be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. [...]
To me, that "within 5 feet of you" is general (the normal value), so the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature overrides it to become "within 15 feet of you".
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
Also, Reach is defined in the Rules Glossary:
Reach
A creature has a reach of 5 feet unless a rule says otherwise.
That "unless a rule says otherwise" could be the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature.
Grappling
A creature can grapple another creature. Characters typically grapple by using an Unarmed Strike. Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. However a grapple is initiated, it follows these rules. See also “Unarmed Strike” and “Grappled.”
Grappled Condition. Successfully grappling a creature gives it the Grappled condition.
One Grapple per Hand. A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature. Some stat blocks and game effects allow a creature to grapple using a tentacle, a maw, or another body part. Whatever part a grappler uses, it can grapple only one creature at a time with that part, and the grappler can’t use that part to target another creature unless it ends the grapple.
Ending a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range. In addition, the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required).
Nowhere in the rules does it say that grappling has a 5 ft. limit.
Grappler
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use both the Damage and the Grapple option. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
Attack Advantage. You have Advantage on attack rolls against a creature Grappled by you.
Fast Wrestler. You don't have to spend extra movement to move a creature Grappled by you if the creature is your size or smaller.
No where in the grappler feat rules does it state you have to be 5 ft. away.
There is a problem if there is a subclass feature of Monk that would render grappling utterly useless. The Elemental Monk makes UNARMED ATTACKS at 15 ft. away. Showing me a ruleset for unarmed strikes minus the elementalism feature is pointless. It is like pointing out to a Rogue that disengage requires an Action.
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
1. You make unarmed strikes from 15 ft away as long as Elemental Attunement is up. 2. When Elemental Attunement is NOT up, then (and only then) does the rule for unarmed strikes at 5 ft. take priority. Again, as an example, it does not make sense to tell the Rogue "sorry, but Disengage requires an action." Pointing out what happens absent a class feature is not accurate. 3. Nothing in the Grappling Rules or Grappler feat states that there is a 5' range limit. Punch and Grab does not mention a distance at all. None!
Therefore,
A Warrior of the Elements when their Elemental Attunement is up, makes unarmed strikes from 15' away, and can grapple as part of that attack if they have the Grappler feat.
If you believe that is overpowered or silly, then by all means you can rule how you wish at your table. But there is nothing in RAR that would indicate that interpretation.
A Warrior of the Elements when their Elemental Attunement is up, makes unarmed strikes from 15' away, and can grapple as part of that attack if they have the Grappler feat.
The Grappler feat doesn't really change anything about the main point of contention in this discussion.
The main issue that was brought up in this thread is that this 15-foot range only exists "When you make an Unarmed Strike". The "making" of an unarmed strike is an instantaneous moment that becomes fully resolved as soon as this attack is made. It's similar to the phrase "make an attack". You don't make an attack in slow motion over the course of many turns. You make the attack and then whatever happens as a result of making that attack happens.
So, you can make this grapple at a range of 15 feet, but then after that grapple is made the range immediately goes back to 5 feet until another Unarmed Strike is made. At that time, if the creature is more than 5 feet away from you the Grapple ends immediately, as per the rules that you've quoted above for "Ending a Grapple".
The good news is that this feature works well for the damage and Shove options for the Unarmed Strike.
A Warrior of the Elements when their Elemental Attunement is up, makes unarmed strikes from 15' away, and can grapple as part of that attack if they have the Grappler feat.
The Grappler feat doesn't really change anything about the main point of contention in this discussion.
The main issue that was brought up in this thread is that this 15-foot range only exists "When you make an Unarmed Strike". The "making" of an unarmed strike is an instantaneous moment that becomes fully resolved as soon as this attack is made. It's similar to the phrase "make an attack". You don't make an attack in slow motion over the course of many turns. You make the attack and then whatever happens as a result of making that attack happens.
So, you can make this grapple at a range of 15 feet, but then after that grapple is made the range immediately goes back to 5 feet until another Unarmed Strike is made. At that time, if the creature is more than 5 feet away from you the Grapple ends immediately, as per the rules that you've quoted above for "Ending a Grapple".
The good news is that this feature works well for the damage and Shove options for the Unarmed Strike.
The question is not being addressed. If the Warrior of the Elements has the Grappler feat, they gain the unique "punch and grab" ability. In that case, the unarmed strike includes a grapple. I can certainly understand why a GM would nerf the Grappler feat as it applies to this one Monk Subclass, but my contention remains that it does not make sense for a class (Monk) that is frequently centered around a grappling build by design, would offer a subclass that makes the grappler feat next to worthless.
it does not make sense for a class (Monk) that is frequently centered around a grappling build by design, would offer a subclass that makes the grappler feat next to worthless.
On this point alone: This is wrong. Not every feat is meant to work with every build, even within classes that usually synergize better with the feats.
Unarmed Strike is an attack, a specific meele attack, not a weapon. It only exists as an attack and does therefore only has its range while attacking.
Grapple is a specific Unarmed Strike that puts the Grappled Condition on the Creature. This can only be broken, when the creature hits a Save Throw, leaves the range of the Grapple or the attacker ends it. The range of the Grapple is the range of the Unarmed Strike.
With the Elements Monk the Unarmed Strike has a range of 15 feet. The addition 'when attacking' does not matter here, as the Unarmed Strike is an attack. You cant do anything else with it, it does not have a range outside of attacks as it does not exist outside of attacks. Grapple and Shove are Unarmed Strikes and therefore also attacks and always have the range extend. As long as the Monk ability is active.
The only written rule that might prevent 15 feet Grapples with the Element Monk, is the need for a "free hand to grab the creature". That one could be interpreted as: You need to grab the creature with a free hand. And the reach with your hand is only 5 feet and does not get extended with the monks ability. But I would not interpret it that way, as this would mean you grab it, to apply the Grappled Condition and than can move up to 15 feet away, as you would not break the Condition as per Rules. As the Grapples Range is 15 feet. Which is super akward. Just that you need the free hand and grab it with whatever extends your Unarmed Strike range.
To me, that "within 5 feet of you" is general (the normal value), so the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature overrides it to become "within 15 feet of you".
Also, Reach is defined in the Rules Glossary:
That "unless a rule says otherwise" could be the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature.
That's because it does not affect your reach with spells, swords, polearms, etc.
Could they have phrased it as "the reach of your unarmed strikes is 10 feet greater than normal"? Sure. Would that wording make any mechanical difference? No.
You are asserting that the range of the character's grapples for the purposes of determining if the grapple can be held is not the range at which the character can make grapple attacks.
And that's inconsistent with both the text of the rules and common sense.
What else could it be? The range of the grapple is the range at which you can make grapple attacks. Which is defined by the reach of your unarmed strikes, barring some other ability.
Huh?
Seriously, what?
The rules define the default reach of an unarmed strike, just like it defines the default reach of a weapon attack. Arguably, it's redundant to do so, since the basic reach definition defines it as five feet, but so what? The weapon table also defines the reach of melee attacks as five feet. If I could be bothered to look at the spells section, I bet it's defined as five feet there, too.
The rules define your default reach. The ability extends the reach. Perfectly normal, not conflicting in any way. It's how the rules of 5e work.
That's certainly the default idea of grappling, with the idea that once you have somebody in a hold, you only need a free hand to maintain it.
Unrealistic, perhaps, but that's D&D for you.
However, they're abstracted sufficiently that they can be used for any sort of attack that holds somebody -- tentacles, grasping vine, etc.
In the case of elements monks, they're doing the sort of thing often seen in the Avatar: the Last Airbender TV show, where characters often hold somebody with a stream of water, or bonds of earth or ice, or that sort of thing.
Ah. Yea, I see. It seems like if the reach is instant - lasting only for the attack - then the ice would be the same. But I see how it get's rid of my 'wrestling' interpretation =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Elemental Attunement feature does not provide a benefit that reads something like "Your reach is 10 feet greater than normal" because it doesn't apply when you when you are wielding a Pike or any other weapon. It doesn't apply when making a touch spell.
As TieflingLew put it:
The effect of Reach with a Pike applies when you are wielding it.
The reach from Elemental Attunement applies when you are "wielding" your unarmed strikes.
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Unfortunately, the feature doesn't actually say that. The character's reach is not changed "while unarmed" or anything like that.
Instead, it says this:
No. It doesn't work that way.
It's important to always be really careful when thinking about whether or not the Exceptions Supersede General Rules rule applies to any particular situation. Explicitly, that rule ONLY applies:
In this case, we have one rule that says:
"an Unarmed Strike [is] a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you."
and another rule that says:
"Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you."
Notice that the first rule doesn't say anything at all about reach. As written (incorrectly -- needs errata), it's not contingent upon reach in any way. So, the second rule does not interact with the first rule at all. The second rule might as well say that your Speed is doubled. Or that your Armor Class is reduced. Or that your Hit Points are increased by 10. None of those possibilities would change the fact that the default rule for an Unarmed Strike says that it is a melee attack against a target within 5 feet of you.
Again, to be clear, we all know that the text should say "within reach" instead of "within 5 feet of you" so we should rule it that way in our games. I was just pointing out how the rules are actually currently written.
That wording still doesn't work for the same reasons.
It's true that it's difficult to come up with concise wording that aligns with your interpretation. You seem to want a base reach of 15 feet that persists while not making any attack and also holds true while making an unarmed strike but reverts back to 5 feet while making an attack with a weapon or when casting a Touch range spell. Unfortunately, the current wording does not get there. The current wording makes the modified reach contingent upon being in the process of making an Unarmed Strike. That works out perfectly fine for an Unarmed Strike for damage or for a Shove attack since those types of attacks are fully resolved immediately upon making that attack. It doesn't work for grappling since grappling is an ongoing activity which persists after the process of making the attempt to grapple has ended.
Just like other ongoing activities such as hiding or holding your breath under water, you must continue to meet the prerequisites for performing that activity on an ongoing basis. You don't get to just take a snapshot in time at the moment that the activity is initiated and assume that its status remains the same regardless of how things change during the timeframe of that ongoing activity.
It is true that the term "the grapple's range" is not tightly defined, but this interpretation is by far the least convincing. The text where this term is used is discussing scenarios whereby the grapple is ended, not the scenarios whereby it is initiated. It is talking about the distance between the grappler and the grappled at the moment that the grapple might end. This check is most likely being made during some moment while you are NOT "making" an attack. For example, in many cases this would be checked when it is not even your turn.
Look again.
This definition of an Unarmed Strike, as currently written (incorrectly -- it needs errata), never actually uses the term "reach" anywhere. It literally defines the term "Unarmed Strike" to be a certain type of attack against a target that's within 5 feet of you.
It's hard-coded. And it shouldn't be. By this definition, a monster that has long arms and a natural reach of 10 feet is restricted to making Unarmed Strikes against targets that are within 5 feet of it. Reach is simply not part of the definition any more than a creature's speed or height or intelligence score. It's an odd error by the author and it needs to be changed.
It's eerily similar to when the first person made the claim that the Invisible Condition doesn't actually say that it makes you invisible. The common knee-jerk reaction was "Huh? Seriously, what? Of course it makes you invisible! It's in the name!" . . . and then people actually went back and read the text for that Condition -- and it actually does not say that it makes you invisible. There are weird things like this in the rules all over the place.
Reach
Apart from calling out opportunity attacks, the wording for the reach weapon property is the same.
Let's ignore the hardcoded 5 feet for unarmed strikes and that maintaining a grapple requires you to be with a grapple's range, which still has no explicit link to reach. The wording is similar and if the effect means the monk can attack at 15 feet, then the grapple's range should be extended as well. RAW clearly doesn't support it but a purely RAW interpretation makes the effect useless. So what is RAI?
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The rules indicate that melee attacks attack a target within your reach which Unarmed Strike are.
I agree with this last part. RAW clearly doesn't support it indeed. The effect is indeed mostly useless for the grapple option, but it works perfectly fine for the damage and the shove options.
As for the RAI, that's unclear from the text. When I first read the subclass along with the feature in question, I picture the character being "imbued" with elemental energy as something that is mainly internal -- perhaps some evidence of this exists as some sort of shimmering glow immediately surrounding the creature, perhaps within an inch or two of the creature's body. Then, when you make an Unarmed Strike, elemental energy extends from you. I picture this like some portion of that shimmering glow organizes itself into some sort of beam of energy that instantaneously extends outwards an additional 10 feet in that moment, immediately fully resolves and then retracts back inward towards itself again instantly. Like a boxer who unleashes a lightning-fast jab right between his opponent's eyes, but with a long beam of elemental energy. How does that jive with this energy holding and maintaining a long distance grapple over time for turn after turn? It doesn't.
On the other hand, there seems to be some evidence of some informal publications from the game designers that suggest that this subclass is meant to have a fighting tactic available to him where he can maintain a long distance grapple, forcing the enemy to zero speed, and then continue to beat on that enemy with long distance melee attacks on future turns while that enemy cannot reach you and cannot move. The thing is, if they had actually intended for it to work that way then they should have written it that way.
Context does matter in many cases. For example, when you come across a word that could mean a couple of different things, you can see how it is used in the sentence and how it fits into the rest of the paragraph as context clues for what the word means. When a rule is ambiguous you can use context clues to determine the best interpretation.
Context doesn't really come into play here if we are talking RAW. The rules clearly state that the reach is extended while you make an Unarmed Strike and the rules also clearly state that an Unarmed Strike is, by definition, "a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you". There is nothing to contextualize here. It's not ambiguous. It says what it says. Nothing about any context would change the meaning of these rules as currently written.
If we are discussing the Rules as Written, the rules actually indicate:
-- by default, melee attacks attack a target within your reach.
-- A particular type of melee attack, called an Unarmed Strike, "involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you".
__________
Honestly, I brought up the "within 5 feet" thing as an amusing aside that I thought people would find interesting. It was an indisputable statement of fact. And it has some strange RAW implications if we were actually forced to play very strictly according to the RAW. Once again, none of us should play it that way. It is an error in the text. When I mentioned it, I honestly expected the community reaction to basically be "Oh wow! Hey, you're right! They really should not have written it like that!" Instead, the general reaction has been . . . pretty strange to say the least.
Analyzing RAI is an inherent step in adjudicating the rules of the game. If it is clear that the developer's intent was for a certain interaction, and you are aware of that intent, that interaction should be adhered to unless you have a specific reason to not do so. Sage Advice supposedly adjudicates on RAW and sometimes RAI at the least.
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That's fair. I would generally agree with this in cases where the rules are ambiguous. When they are not ambiguous then they are what they are, regardless of intent. But we can always play however we want, of course. For example, regardless of how closely I would want to run a game according to the RAW, I would never enforce the rule that states that an Unarmed Strike is made against a target that is within 5 feet of you because I know for sure that that is just a blatant error by the authors and I know that the intent is otherwise, even though that rule as currently written is not ambiguous. So yeah, this forum is generally about getting to the bottom of what the rules actually are as written. But discussions about the RAI have their place and understanding RAI can indeed be very helpful in determining how best to run a game.
"Hold them out of reach" isn't accurate. If you're holding them in a grapple, then your grappling appendage is subject to melee attack or touch spells.
Technically RAW , if a Monk is grappling you from 15 feet away and you have a reach of 5 feet, the Monk isn't within your reach. The Monk doesn't occupy it's space and all intervening space between you and it for example.
Without special rules to affect a grappling appendage such as Roper 's Tentacles , it doesn't have AC, HP etc...
Having said that, DM often rule in favor anyway.
I remember at least a couple of posts about this:
Grappling
A creature can grapple another creature. Characters typically grapple by using an Unarmed Strike. Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. However a grapple is initiated, it follows these rules. See also “Unarmed Strike” and “Grappled.”
Grappled Condition. Successfully grappling a creature gives it the Grappled condition.
One Grapple per Hand. A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature. Some stat blocks and game effects allow a creature to grapple using a tentacle, a maw, or another body part. Whatever part a grappler uses, it can grapple only one creature at a time with that part, and the grappler can’t use that part to target another creature unless it ends the grapple.
Ending a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range. In addition, the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required).
Nowhere in the rules does it say that grappling has a 5 ft. limit.
Grappler
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use both the Damage and the Grapple option. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
Attack Advantage. You have Advantage on attack rolls against a creature Grappled by you.
Fast Wrestler. You don't have to spend extra movement to move a creature Grappled by you if the creature is your size or smaller.
No where in the grappler feat rules does it state you have to be 5 ft. away.
There is a problem if there is a subclass feature of Monk that would render grappling utterly useless. The Elemental Monk makes UNARMED ATTACKS at 15 ft. away. Showing me a ruleset for unarmed strikes minus the elementalism feature is pointless. It is like pointing out to a Rogue that disengage requires an Action.
Level 3: Elemental Attunement
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
1. You make unarmed strikes from 15 ft away as long as Elemental Attunement is up.
2. When Elemental Attunement is NOT up, then (and only then) does the rule for unarmed strikes at 5 ft. take priority. Again, as an example, it does not make sense to tell the Rogue "sorry, but Disengage requires an action." Pointing out what happens absent a class feature is not accurate.
3. Nothing in the Grappling Rules or Grappler feat states that there is a 5' range limit. Punch and Grab does not mention a distance at all. None!
Therefore,
A Warrior of the Elements when their Elemental Attunement is up, makes unarmed strikes from 15' away, and can grapple as part of that attack if they have the Grappler feat.
If you believe that is overpowered or silly, then by all means you can rule how you wish at your table. But there is nothing in RAR that would indicate that interpretation.
The Grappler feat doesn't really change anything about the main point of contention in this discussion.
The main issue that was brought up in this thread is that this 15-foot range only exists "When you make an Unarmed Strike". The "making" of an unarmed strike is an instantaneous moment that becomes fully resolved as soon as this attack is made. It's similar to the phrase "make an attack". You don't make an attack in slow motion over the course of many turns. You make the attack and then whatever happens as a result of making that attack happens.
So, you can make this grapple at a range of 15 feet, but then after that grapple is made the range immediately goes back to 5 feet until another Unarmed Strike is made. At that time, if the creature is more than 5 feet away from you the Grapple ends immediately, as per the rules that you've quoted above for "Ending a Grapple".
The good news is that this feature works well for the damage and Shove options for the Unarmed Strike.
The question is not being addressed. If the Warrior of the Elements has the Grappler feat, they gain the unique "punch and grab" ability. In that case, the unarmed strike includes a grapple. I can certainly understand why a GM would nerf the Grappler feat as it applies to this one Monk Subclass, but my contention remains that it does not make sense for a class (Monk) that is frequently centered around a grappling build by design, would offer a subclass that makes the grappler feat next to worthless.
On this point alone: This is wrong. Not every feat is meant to work with every build, even within classes that usually synergize better with the feats.
I find the rules pretty clear on this.
Unarmed Strike is an attack, a specific meele attack, not a weapon. It only exists as an attack and does therefore only has its range while attacking.
Grapple is a specific Unarmed Strike that puts the Grappled Condition on the Creature. This can only be broken, when the creature hits a Save Throw, leaves the range of the Grapple or the attacker ends it. The range of the Grapple is the range of the Unarmed Strike.
With the Elements Monk the Unarmed Strike has a range of 15 feet. The addition 'when attacking' does not matter here, as the Unarmed Strike is an attack. You cant do anything else with it, it does not have a range outside of attacks as it does not exist outside of attacks. Grapple and Shove are Unarmed Strikes and therefore also attacks and always have the range extend. As long as the Monk ability is active.
The only written rule that might prevent 15 feet Grapples with the Element Monk, is the need for a "free hand to grab the creature". That one could be interpreted as: You need to grab the creature with a free hand. And the reach with your hand is only 5 feet and does not get extended with the monks ability. But I would not interpret it that way, as this would mean you grab it, to apply the Grappled Condition and than can move up to 15 feet away, as you would not break the Condition as per Rules. As the Grapples Range is 15 feet. Which is super akward. Just that you need the free hand and grab it with whatever extends your Unarmed Strike range.