Player A has advantage on saving throws against being frightened. (brave)
Monster A has an attack: The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn. Roll a d6 for the condition: (1-2) blinded, (3-4) frightened, or (5-6) stunned.
Does Player get the advantage because there is a chance of being frightened or does the player not get advantage because other conditions can be applied?
He doesn't have advantage to resist the condition per se -- he has advantage on saving throws for effects that can cause the condition and allow for a save.
Or, using the broader terminology from the Rules Glossary, a saving throw represents an effort to resist a particular threat, when an effect that poses such a threat allows for a save.
The effect in question threatens to cause the Frightened condition, even though it might not always do so. Because of the nature of this threat, the saving throw is rolled with advantage.
There is a fairly easy way to get around the whole issue: roll the d6 first before the player rolls the save. Then apply advantage if a 3 or 4 is rolled, and not otherwise.
There is a fairly easy way to get around the whole issue: roll the d6 first before the player rolls the save. Then apply advantage if a 3 or 4 is rolled, and not otherwise.
I'd say let the player reroll if they failed and got the Frightened effect.
This is also not the way.
All of you are unfairly penalizing the player. The mechanics involved clearly show that the monster's attack allows for a saving throw first. Then, only after the saving throw fails is it determined which Condition is suffered. The advantage is on the saving throw for the effect that is created by the attack which includes a threat of causing the Frightened condition.
Advantage on the saving throw vs this effect. Then, follow the instructions given in the description for a success or failure.
People who think this is clear-cut are wrong. There is a reasonable argument for a bonus to all saves (it can, after all, apply frightened). There is a reasonable argument for a bonus to no saves (the primary effect being applied is not frightened, it is 'random status effect'). Neither a reroll nor prerolling seems likely to be valid.
If this is a homebrew monster, I recommend just rewriting it so the effect is clear (for example, the beholder's eye rays power can apply fear, but is selected before the save is attempted). If not, well, shame on Wizards and I would still rewrite it.
There is a fairly easy way to get around the whole issue: roll the d6 first before the player rolls the save. Then apply advantage if a 3 or 4 is rolled, and not otherwise.
I'd say let the player reroll if they failed and got the Frightened effect.
This is also not the way.
All of you are unfairly penalizing the player. The mechanics involved clearly show that the monster's attack allows for a saving throw first. Then, only after the saving throw fails is it determined which Condition is suffered. The advantage is on the saving throw for the effect that is created by the attack which includes a threat of causing the Frightened condition.
Advantage on the saving throw vs this effect. Then, follow the instructions given in the description for a success or failure.
Personally, I would not interpret advantage on saves against being Frightened as advantage on effects that have a chance of making you frightened. That doesn't make sense.
Player A has advantage on saving throws against being frightened. (brave)
Monster A has an attack: The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn. Roll a d6 for the condition: (1-2) blinded, (3-4) frightened, or (5-6) stunned.
Does Player get the advantage because there is a chance of being frightened or does the player not get advantage because other conditions can be applied?
Given the condition isn't determined until after the save is rolled, and the conditions are mutually exclusive (aka if Blinded is being applied, that means Frightened and Stunned are not), then the save isn't against being Frightened at the time the save is being made. Based on this I would say the PC does not get advantage on the roll.
I could maybe see an argument for the condition being determined at the time the save is made, in which case I'd agree with wagnarokkr—roll for the condition, then call for the save and if you rolled Frightened, grant advantage.
I 100% would disagree with the notion of granting advantage to the roll as a default and thus allowing for advantage on a Stunned or Blinded outcome
the save isn't against being Frightened at the time the save is being made.
Saving Throws are really never "vs [condition]" like they were in early editions of D&D. You make saving throws in response to a threat when an effect allows for one.
The text which talks about the mechanics for Saving Throws in 5e are pretty carefully worded.
From the main text:
Saving Throws
A saving throw—also called a save—represents an attempt to evade or resist a threat, such as a fiery explosion, a blast of poisonous gas, or a spell trying to invade your mind. You don’t normally choose to make a save; you must make one because your character or a monster (if you’re the DM) is at risk.
From the Rules Glossary:
Saving Throw
A saving throw—also called a save—represents an attempt to avoid or resist a threat. You normally make a saving throw only when a rule requires you to do so, but you can decide to fail the save without rolling. The result of a save is detailed in the effect that allowed it.
A saving throw is preemptive. It's an attempt to avoid. It's not something that you do after the fact. It is a response to a threat.
A saving throw is made vs an effect which threatens to cause you to have a Condition.
In the OP's scenario, an effect threatens to cause a creature to have the Frightened Condition (among other threats). This effect allows the creature to make a saving throw to avoid this threat. The creature in question has "Advantage on saving throws you make to avoid or end the Frightened condition. Therefore, this creature gets Advantage on this saving throw.
A saving throw is made vs an effect which threatens to cause you to have a Condition.
Incorrect. A saving throw is made vs a threat. It's a noun, not a verb. In any case, the threat is "random condition". The fact that the random condition can cause you to suffer some other condition does not mean that the save is against the secondary effect, it's against the primary effect.
To give an example: let's say that there's an arrow trap: if you set off the trap, you have to make a dexterity save to avoid being hit by arrows. Would a dwarf get advantage on the save if those arrows happened to be poisoned, but not if they were normal arrows? No, because the threat is "being hit by an arrow", not "being poisoned".
A saving throw is made vs an effect which threatens to cause you to have a Condition.
Incorrect. A saving throw is made vs a threat. It's a noun, not a verb. In any case, the threat is "random condition". The fact that the random condition can cause you to suffer some other condition does not mean that the save is against the secondary effect, it's against the primary effect.
To give an example: let's say that there's an arrow trap: if you set off the trap, you have to make a dexterity save to avoid being hit by arrows. Would a dwarf get advantage on the save if those arrows happened to be poisoned, but not if they were normal arrows? No, because the threat is "being hit by an arrow", not "being poisoned".
The point that I was making was that in 5e the effect that is threatening to cause harm is what allows for the saving throw. You don't make a save against the actual harm -- that's not the trigger. The trigger is that the effect allows for the save and you then have a chance to avoid that potential harm. The trigger is not actually being harmed and then seeing if you are somehow "resisting" its effects or something. It's preemptive. It happens when you interact with some sort of effect and that effect is threatening to cause harm. The effect is putting you at risk.
In this case, the threat is most certainly NOT "random condition". There is no such thing as such a threat. The randomness of the situation is not what is threatening. Instead, the effect threatens to cause Blinded AND the effect threatens to cause Frightened AND the effect threatens to cause Stunned. This effect allows for a saving throw that avoids all 3 of those threats at the same time. It's just like when some spells note that 3 different things actually happen to you on a failed save -- in such a case there were three threats and they could all be avoided by the same saving throw, but in that case instead of having only one of those things happen you have all 3 of them happen. But the saving throw mechanic is the same -- it's a single attempt to avoid all 3 of the threats at the same time.
As such, your Dwarf example is not comparable at all -- that's a totally different type of situation. In that case, the save in question is a DEX save because you are actually trying to avoid the threat of the arrow. In many cases, getting hit by such an arrow causes poison damage, NOT the poisoned condition. The Dwarf has a separate ability to deal with that scenario for pretty much this exact reason: "You have Resistance to Poison damage". If instead the "on-a-hit" effect of being hit by this arrow actually causes the Poisoned Condition, in many cases there would actually be a separate saving throw allowed by that effect for that purpose. At that point, the Dwarf gets Advantage on that saving throw to avoid the Poisoned Condition. If instead the effect is such that you don't get a saving throw, then you don't get a saving throw. You can only have Advantage if you actually get to roll the dice.
In this case, the threat is most certainly NOT "random condition". There is no such thing as such a threat.
There objectively is, because that's literally what the text says: "The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn". You may not like that text, but that doesn't mean that the text doesn't mean what it says.
Monster A has an attack: The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn. Roll a d6 for the condition: (1-2) blinded, (3-4) frightened, or (5-6) stunned.
It's unclear if this is exact text from anywhere or if this is just the OP paraphrasing how it works in his own words. Judging from this text, it might even be reasonable to interpret it such that you are actually meant to roll the d6 before you actually roll for the Saving Throw. Like, you actually know what is being threatened, it's just different each time. I don't interpret it that way but it's getting difficult to tell without seeing the exact text.
I guess if the OP will not quote the exact text, then we've reached the end of the usefulness of this discussion. If this is indeed just a locally homebrewed effect that was created at the table in OP's game, then just go ahead and homebrew how it's really meant to work and be done with it. If this is officially published somewhere then we'll need an exact quote to be of any further help.
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Alright d&d gurus
Player A has advantage on saving throws against being frightened. (brave)
Monster A has an attack:
The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn. Roll a d6 for the condition: (1-2) blinded, (3-4) frightened, or (5-6) stunned.
Does Player get the advantage because there is a chance of being frightened or does the player not get advantage because other conditions can be applied?
Not sure of the correct way, but no advantage on save . If failed let the PC roll a d6. If first roll is frightened result, he gets a reroll.
That can allow advantage to avoid frightening, but not for the others.
Player A just gets advantage on the saving throw.
He doesn't have advantage to resist the condition per se -- he has advantage on saving throws for effects that can cause the condition and allow for a save.
Or, using the broader terminology from the Rules Glossary, a saving throw represents an effort to resist a particular threat, when an effect that poses such a threat allows for a save.
The effect in question threatens to cause the Frightened condition, even though it might not always do so. Because of the nature of this threat, the saving throw is rolled with advantage.
There is a fairly easy way to get around the whole issue: roll the d6 first before the player rolls the save. Then apply advantage if a 3 or 4 is rolled, and not otherwise.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yeah this is the way to go. thanks
I'd say let the player reroll if they failed and got the Frightened effect.
It's really not.
This is also not the way.
All of you are unfairly penalizing the player. The mechanics involved clearly show that the monster's attack allows for a saving throw first. Then, only after the saving throw fails is it determined which Condition is suffered. The advantage is on the saving throw for the effect that is created by the attack which includes a threat of causing the Frightened condition.
Advantage on the saving throw vs this effect. Then, follow the instructions given in the description for a success or failure.
People who think this is clear-cut are wrong. There is a reasonable argument for a bonus to all saves (it can, after all, apply frightened). There is a reasonable argument for a bonus to no saves (the primary effect being applied is not frightened, it is 'random status effect'). Neither a reroll nor prerolling seems likely to be valid.
If this is a homebrew monster, I recommend just rewriting it so the effect is clear (for example, the beholder's eye rays power can apply fear, but is selected before the save is attempted). If not, well, shame on Wizards and I would still rewrite it.
Personally, I would not interpret advantage on saves against being Frightened as advantage on effects that have a chance of making you frightened. That doesn't make sense.
Given the condition isn't determined until after the save is rolled, and the conditions are mutually exclusive (aka if Blinded is being applied, that means Frightened and Stunned are not), then the save isn't against being Frightened at the time the save is being made. Based on this I would say the PC does not get advantage on the roll.
I could maybe see an argument for the condition being determined at the time the save is made, in which case I'd agree with wagnarokkr—roll for the condition, then call for the save and if you rolled Frightened, grant advantage.
I 100% would disagree with the notion of granting advantage to the roll as a default and thus allowing for advantage on a Stunned or Blinded outcome
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It doesn't say Advantage to random things, it is very specific that the bonus is only to saves against fear.
I would not give Advantage to the save of this attack.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The actual wording of the feature is:
Saving Throws are really never "vs [condition]" like they were in early editions of D&D. You make saving throws in response to a threat when an effect allows for one.
The text which talks about the mechanics for Saving Throws in 5e are pretty carefully worded.
From the main text:
From the Rules Glossary:
A saving throw is preemptive. It's an attempt to avoid. It's not something that you do after the fact. It is a response to a threat.
A saving throw is made vs an effect which threatens to cause you to have a Condition.
In the OP's scenario, an effect threatens to cause a creature to have the Frightened Condition (among other threats). This effect allows the creature to make a saving throw to avoid this threat. The creature in question has "Advantage on saving throws you make to avoid or end the Frightened condition. Therefore, this creature gets Advantage on this saving throw.
Blinded is not Frightened why should they get a bonus?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Incorrect. A saving throw is made vs a threat. It's a noun, not a verb. In any case, the threat is "random condition". The fact that the random condition can cause you to suffer some other condition does not mean that the save is against the secondary effect, it's against the primary effect.
To give an example: let's say that there's an arrow trap: if you set off the trap, you have to make a dexterity save to avoid being hit by arrows. Would a dwarf get advantage on the save if those arrows happened to be poisoned, but not if they were normal arrows? No, because the threat is "being hit by an arrow", not "being poisoned".
The point that I was making was that in 5e the effect that is threatening to cause harm is what allows for the saving throw. You don't make a save against the actual harm -- that's not the trigger. The trigger is that the effect allows for the save and you then have a chance to avoid that potential harm. The trigger is not actually being harmed and then seeing if you are somehow "resisting" its effects or something. It's preemptive. It happens when you interact with some sort of effect and that effect is threatening to cause harm. The effect is putting you at risk.
In this case, the threat is most certainly NOT "random condition". There is no such thing as such a threat. The randomness of the situation is not what is threatening. Instead, the effect threatens to cause Blinded AND the effect threatens to cause Frightened AND the effect threatens to cause Stunned. This effect allows for a saving throw that avoids all 3 of those threats at the same time. It's just like when some spells note that 3 different things actually happen to you on a failed save -- in such a case there were three threats and they could all be avoided by the same saving throw, but in that case instead of having only one of those things happen you have all 3 of them happen. But the saving throw mechanic is the same -- it's a single attempt to avoid all 3 of the threats at the same time.
As such, your Dwarf example is not comparable at all -- that's a totally different type of situation. In that case, the save in question is a DEX save because you are actually trying to avoid the threat of the arrow. In many cases, getting hit by such an arrow causes poison damage, NOT the poisoned condition. The Dwarf has a separate ability to deal with that scenario for pretty much this exact reason: "You have Resistance to Poison damage". If instead the "on-a-hit" effect of being hit by this arrow actually causes the Poisoned Condition, in many cases there would actually be a separate saving throw allowed by that effect for that purpose. At that point, the Dwarf gets Advantage on that saving throw to avoid the Poisoned Condition. If instead the effect is such that you don't get a saving throw, then you don't get a saving throw. You can only have Advantage if you actually get to roll the dice.
There objectively is, because that's literally what the text says: "The target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or suffer a random condition until the start of the monsters next turn". You may not like that text, but that doesn't mean that the text doesn't mean what it says.
It's unclear if this is exact text from anywhere or if this is just the OP paraphrasing how it works in his own words. Judging from this text, it might even be reasonable to interpret it such that you are actually meant to roll the d6 before you actually roll for the Saving Throw. Like, you actually know what is being threatened, it's just different each time. I don't interpret it that way but it's getting difficult to tell without seeing the exact text.
I guess if the OP will not quote the exact text, then we've reached the end of the usefulness of this discussion. If this is indeed just a locally homebrewed effect that was created at the table in OP's game, then just go ahead and homebrew how it's really meant to work and be done with it. If this is officially published somewhere then we'll need an exact quote to be of any further help.