Ranged Grapple (Monk Warrior of the Elements)

Quote from RobertSchaefer >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

[...] To me, that "within 5 feet of you" is general (the normal value), so the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature overrides it to become "within 15 feet of you".

Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.

Also, Reach is defined in the Rules Glossary:

Reach

A creature has a reach of 5 feet unless a rule says otherwise.

That "unless a rule says otherwise" could be the Level 3: Elemental Attunement feature.

[...] Nowhere in the rules does it say that grappling has a 5 ft. limit.  

[...] No where in the grappler feat rules does it state you have to be 5 ft. away. 

There is a problem if there is a subclass feature of Monk that would render grappling utterly useless. The Elemental Monk makes UNARMED ATTACKS at 15 ft. away.  Showing me a ruleset for unarmed strikes minus the elementalism feature is pointless.  It is like pointing out to a Rogue that disengage requires an Action.   

(sorry in advance for snipping your text, I just want to keep the answer short)

Not sure why you replied to me. I think we agree on this and your other answers. It's relevant to add that the feature includes:

The energy lasts for 10 minutes or until you have the Incapacitated condition. You gain the following benefits while this feature is active.

So the "your reach is 10 feet greater than normal" effect lasts for 10 minutes, including for maintaining your Grapple.

Also, just let me add a recent thread about this topic: Grappling/Reach/Movement, along with some replies from it:

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

1A) I agree, the grapple ends immediately because the distance bwteen the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range.  Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes. 

1B) I can't think of a scenario where a brief grapple would matter besides perhaps triggering Reactions.

1C) Your Elemental Strikes only work when you use Unarmed Strike to Damage which does not Grapple unless you have the Grappler feat.

2A) Yes, you don't have to drag a Grappled creature when you move.

2B) A creature's space must be in the Area of Effect to be affected by it, merely having appendage in it is not enougth.

 EDIT To Strikethrough

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from OdinTGE>>

Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal , as elemental energy extends from you. - [From Elemental Attunement, Level 3 feature for Warrior of the Elements]

The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple's range. - [From Grappling, PHP 2024 page 367]

My interpretation of this is that an elemental monk can grapple a target 15 feet from them, but the grapple then instantly ends.

• 1A) Do you agree?

No.

For two reasons:

1) The range of the grapple is the reach of your unarmed strikes. 

2) One of the fundamental principles of the 5e rules, is that, if a specific rule says you can do a thing, you can do the thing, even if there's a more general rule saying otherwise.

This ruling is a violation of that principle. Your unarmed strikes have extra range. Unarmed strikes include grappling. Therefore, your grapples have extra range. If you can spend your attack to grapple somebody, but it immediately ends, then you in no way have actually grappled somebody. There is no benefit to doing so. An ability that doesn't work is not an ability.

So I feel that this could be connected like most spells that entangle or hold things.  Controlling commanding Elementals usually requires some sort of magic to be involved.  The Monk should have to use concentration and all conditions that apply to concentration should apply to this, to maintain the grapple, I think it is similar to hold person, entanglement, etc... that causes someone or something to be held in place.  I don't think there are any spells or such that hold someone in place with a "hit and forget" out come...I could be wrong.  I also agree that if the held person is physically moved outside of the reach it does automatically break the grapple.

"""Level 3: Elemental Attunement
At the start of your turn, you can expend 1 Focus Point to imbue yourself with elemental energy. The energy lasts for 10 minutes or until you have the Incapacitated condition. You gain the following benefits while this feature is active.

Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you."""

It seems pretty straightforward.

If you spend 1 focus point, elemental energy inhabits you for 10 minutes. During that time, your reach for unarmed strikes is at least 15 feet. If you grapple someone during this time, while the ten minute energy lasts, you can hold them 15 feet away from you as you maintain the grapple, and the elemental energy remains. 

And nothing in the rules says anything about needing to concentrate to do this. It only says the energy remains for 10 minutes, but leaves early if you are incapacitated.

Your reach only changes during the attack itself. Once the attack is over, your reach reverts to normal.

I'd argue that this would automatically break grapples you launched on targets more than 5' away as well as preclude Opportunity Attacks more than 5' away.

If it increased you reach for 10 minutes, it would simply say "Your reach with Unarmed Strikes is increased by 10'" rather than making it trigger on attack.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

"""Level 3: Elemental Attunement
At the start of your turn, you can expend 1 Focus Point to imbue yourself with elemental energy. The energy lasts for 10 minutes or until you have the Incapacitated condition. You gain the following benefits while this feature is active.

Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you."""

It seems pretty straightforward.

If you spend 1 focus point, elemental energy inhabits you for 10 minutes. During that time, your reach for unarmed strikes is at least 15 feet. If you grapple someone during this time, while the ten minute energy lasts, you can hold them 15 feet away from you as you maintain the grapple, and the elemental energy remains. 

And nothing in the rules says anything about needing to concentrate to do this. It only says the energy remains for 10 minutes, but leaves early if you are incapacitated.

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks, but we know what they intended. Second, the increased reach only lasts for the duration of the attack. Between turns, between Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reach, and even between attacks during the Attack Action or Flurry of Blows, the Monk's reach is 5 feet.

It creates problems unless you can move the grappled target adjacent immediately or the range persists for the full 10 minutes.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks,

 A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike.  

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks, but we know what they intended. Second, the increased reach only lasts for the duration of the attack. Between turns, between Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reach, and even between attacks during the Attack Action or Flurry of Blows, the Monk's reach is 5 feet.

It creates problems unless you can move the grappled target adjacent immediately or the range persists for the full 10 minutes.

 Ok, by your reading of the strict wording of the rules, you can make allowance for what they clearly meant in step a (making an unarmed strike) but not step b (holding the grapple).*

Why? Why does the first get a pass, but the second not?

If it's "we know they meant to allow unarmed strikes to happen at range", why does that not extend to all unarmed strikes? As I've said many times before, "you can use the ability, it just doesn't do anything" is indistinguishable from "you can't use the ability". If they intended you to be able to grapple at range (which we must assume, because they made no explicit exception), then you must be able to hold the grapple for that intent to be realized.

* I in fact disagree with both of these interpretations, but am not arguing them here.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks,

 A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike.  

Specific Rule for Unarmed Strike:

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.

Specific beats general. Now, of course, you can make the argument that "a target within 5 feet of you" only applies to shove, but that's a difficult case.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks, but we know what they intended. Second, the increased reach only lasts for the duration of the attack. Between turns, between Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reach, and even between attacks during the Attack Action or Flurry of Blows, the Monk's reach is 5 feet.

It creates problems unless you can move the grappled target adjacent immediately or the range persists for the full 10 minutes.

 Ok, by your reading of the strict wording of the rules, you can make allowance for what they clearly meant in step a (making an unarmed strike) but not step b (holding the grapple).*

Why? Why does the first get a pass, but the second not?

One, it's not "my reading". It's a reading that I have seen argued and can be a cause of confusion.

Two. There is a set duration on the extended reach and it is for the unarmed attack only. Once the attack is resolved, you no longer have the extra reach, as the ability is written. 

Quote from jl8e >>

If it's "we know they meant to allow unarmed strikes to happen at range", why does that not extend to all unarmed strikes? As I've said many times before, "you can use the ability, it just doesn't do anything" is indistinguishable from "you can't use the ability". If they intended you to be able to grapple at range (which we must assume, because they made no explicit exception), then you must be able to hold the grapple for that intent to be realized.

Elemental Attunement makes no mention of grappling so it may have always been intended to only apply to Unarmed Strikes with damage option. The current wording is not compatible with maintaining a grapple. It is also possible that they did intend for it to apply to grappling and just worded it poorly.

I don't know why they didn't just increase the monk's reach without weapons by 10 feet for the duration (it would increase opportunity attack range, but I don't think that would be a problem). The other alternative is that on a successful grapple, the target is immediately moved adjacent. That is a free drag but again shouldn't be too problematic.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from Plaguescarred>>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks,

A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike.

Specific Rule for Unarmed Strike:

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.

Specific beats general. Now, of course, you can make the argument that "a target within 5 feet of you" only applies to shove, but that's a difficult case.

Quote from jl8e>>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks, but we know what they intended. Second, the increased reach only lasts for the duration of the attack. Between turns, between Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reach, and even between attacks during the Attack Action or Flurry of Blows, the Monk's reach is 5 feet.

It creates problems unless you can move the grappled target adjacent immediately or the range persists for the full 10 minutes.

 Ok, by your reading of the strict wording of the rules, you can make allowance for what they clearly meant in step a (making an unarmed strike) but not step b (holding the grapple).*

Why? Why does the first get a pass, but the second not?

One, it's not "my reading". It's a reading that I have seen argued and can be a cause of confusion.

Quote from jl8e>>

If it's "we know they meant to allow unarmed strikes to happen at range", why does that not extend to all unarmed strikes? As I've said many times before, "you can use the ability, it just doesn't do anything" is indistinguishable from "you can't use the ability". If they intended you to be able to grapple at range (which we must assume, because they made no explicit exception), then you must be able to hold the grapple for that intent to be realized.

Elemental Attunement makes no mention of grappling so it may have always been intended to only apply to Unarmed Strikes with damage option.

The current wording is not compatible with maintaining a grapple. It is also possible that they did intend for it to apply to grappling and just worded it poorly.

I don't know why they didn't just increase the monk's reach without weapons by 10 feet for the duration

 That's just how they template reach increase.

A Reach weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it,

This whole argument rests on the idea that holding a grapple is inherently separate from making the grapple; that it doesn't inherit reach increases. I find that argument to be a stretch.

If you can argue that they didn't intend to include grapples and didn't mention it, it's at least as plausible that they didn't think to explicitly mention that grapple ranges were extended. (Really, considerably more so.)

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from Plaguescarred>>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Part of the problem is that when you make an unarmed attack, you make an attack against someone within 5 feet, not with your reach so increasing your reach doesn't technically increase the distance at which you can make unarmed attacks,

A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike.

Specific Rule for Unarmed Strike:

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.

Specific beats general. Now, of course, you can make the argument that "a target within 5 feet of you" only applies to shove, but that's a difficult case.

Unarmed Strikes are melee attacks, with which you target a creature within your reach. So if your Reach is 15 feet, you can make melee attack against creatures up to 15 feet with an handheld weapon or an Unarmed Strike. Similarly, you can make an Opportunity Attack when a creature that you can see leaves your reach. To make the attack, take a Reaction to make one melee attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike against that creature. This is what the rules say.

Choosing to intrepret Unarmed Strike as a melee attack not affected by reach because it says within 5 feet, which at base creature has a reach of 5 feet unless a rule says otherwise, is limiting it further than necessary.

I know nothing in the rules say you have to make a concentration, BUT I THINK I SHOULD, because it is a spell like ability and spells that do the similar thing (i.e HOLD PERSON, ENTANGLE, etc...) require it.  I don't know of any spell that you can "hold, grapple etc ..." and forget about it.  I THINK it is a spell like ability and should follow a similar spells rules.  I also believe that if the object you are grappling moves or gets moved outside of the 15 feet the grapple breaks.

To me, it seems like you could make and maintain a grapple at range using this feature. 

The feature allows you, for 10 minutes, to increase the range of your Unarmed Strikes by 10 ft. 

An Unarmed Strike is not inherently an instantaneous damaging strike, with a secondary thing of "Grapple". It is EITHER a damaging strike or grapple. Both are equally an "Unarmed Strike". So when it says your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, that holds for both the damaging strike and the grapple. 

The argument that your reach returns to normal after the instantaneous effect of the Unarmed Strike isn't actually in the rules. It states "When you make an unarmed strike..." because the extended reach doesn't matter outside of that one type of action, whether it comes from an opportunity attack, bonus action attack, or Attack Action attack. If you aren't using your Unarmed Strike, then it doesn't matter what the range is for it, it only matters when you are using it. You could have a feature that states "Your range with your unarmed strikes is 1,000 ft as long as you aren't using your Unarmed Strike" and it would be exactly the same as the game plays currently, because it doesn't matter. This is the same for weapons. The normal range on your longbow is 150 ft when you make an attack with it. What's the range on the bow when you aren't attacking with it? It doesn't matter. 

So if Grapple is a part of Unarmed Strike, then as long as you are doing the Unarmed Strike (Grapple) the range on it is 10 ft more than your normal range. 

There are lots of features in classes that do not eequire concentration or a concentration check.

Barbarians can rage, taking damage helps them maintain their rage

Druids can wildshape. No concentratiin needed. In fact it is a common strategy for a druid to cast a spell like Call Lightning, then wildshape into a bear, and now they are a bear that can punch you, and then hit you with a bolt of lightning.

There are quite a few class and subclass features that give you quite powerful abilitities without requiring concentratiin.

" I also believe that if the object you are grappling moves"

If a creature has the grappled condition, its speed is zero. It cannot move. The creature can use their action to break thr grapple. But if that falls, they are stuck.

"or gets moved outside of the 15 feet the grapple breaks."

That is how all grapples work. If a thug grapples the wizard in your party, someone with the Telekinetic feat could telekinetically push the wizard 5 feet, out of reach of the thug, and the wizard is now free.

Quote from Einkell_Battledrunk >>

I know nothing in the rules say you have to make a concentration, BUT I THINK I SHOULD, because it is a spell like ability and spells that do the similar thing (i.e HOLD PERSON, ENTANGLE, etc...) require it.  I don't know of any spell that you can "hold, grapple etc ..." and forget about it.  I THINK it is a spell like ability and should follow a similar spells rules.  I also believe that if the object you are grappling moves or gets moved outside of the 15 feet the grapple breaks.

 While I think that Concentration should be extended to non-magical abilities, I don't believe this should be one of them. It would cripple Grapples.

However, consider Rage. You could just as easily re-write as "You must Concentrate on Rage". By its nature, the Concentration of Rage would preclude Concentration on spells and you could probably give Barbarians some sort of bonus to making the roll. It would be an interesting way to manage the mechanic.

Another example of this might be Stealth. Imagine that Stealth only lasted while you were Concentrating and until the end of some turn (beginning/end/yours/etc.) after you stopped. This would make Stealth much less universal - more of a benefit for Martials than casters - while also distinguishing between the "I spend 3 hours sneaking into the king's vault" type of Stealth and the "I briefly duck behind that box to Sneak Attack" type of Stealth.

Or imagine a Monk ability: "At the beginning of your turn, you may spend 1 ki and begin Concentrating. While Concentrating on this ability, you are consider to have taken the Dodge action every turn."

With that being said, these are not the rules that they wrote.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, consider Rage. You could just as easily re-write as "You must Concentrate on Rage". By its nature, the Concentration of Rage would preclude Concentration on spells and you could probably give Barbarians some sort of bonus to making the roll. It would be an interesting way to manage the mechanic.

 "Sorry, you were hit too hard and failed your save, you aren't Raging any more."

F-tier idea right there, bud.

Quote from jl8e >>

Melee attacks: A creature has a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet when making a melee attack.

How is this any different from the unarmed strikes definition? This isn't "specific beats general". This is setting the baseline. It is the general rule.

Unarmed Strike

a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.

Melee Attacks

A melee attack allows you to attack a target within your reach.

 

The difference is that the melee attacks section explicitly says that the range at which you can make your attack is because of your reach. The Unarmed Strike section says it is explicitly a subset of melee attacks with a range of 5 feet with no mention of reach.

Quote from jl8e >>

One, it's not "my reading". It's a reading that I have seen argued and can be a cause of confusion.

You're arguing for it. That makes it your reading. (If you aren't arguing for it, why even bring it up?)

No. I am not arguing for it. I am highlighting that I have seen this come up in the past and the issue is not as "straight forward" as SunIsGettingRealLow96589 seems to believe. This was the reason for bringing it up, to explain a common source of confusion. I am arguing that it should not be dismissed and it should be discussed until everyone at the table is comfortable with the answer.

Quote from jl8e >>

This whole argument rests on the idea that holding a grapple is inherently separate from making the grapple; that it doesn't inherit reach increases. I find that argument to be a stretch.

If you can argue that they didn't intend to include grapples and didn't mention it, it's at least as plausible that they didn't think to explicitly mention that grapple ranges were extended. (Really, considerably more so.)

It's at least a possibility. Not really one that I like, but still possible. It's just more reason to discuss the situation and treat others kindly if they express confusion.

Quote from Athanar90 >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, consider Rage. You could just as easily re-write as "You must Concentrate on Rage". By its nature, the Concentration of Rage would preclude Concentration on spells and you could probably give Barbarians some sort of bonus to making the roll. It would be an interesting way to manage the mechanic.

 "Sorry, you were hit too hard and failed your save, you aren't Raging any more."

F-tier idea right there, bud.

I think there was a mechanic that is not far off from this in previous editions. I think it was more of a check to continue the rage past a certain point. Perhaps a check instead of a Bonus Action to continue the rage or as part of it, preferably with increasing penalties for consecutive turns that you don't automatically continue the rage. It could be interesting, if you want that sort of thing. I don't think it adds anything worthwhile.

Quote from Einkell_Battledrunk >>

I know nothing in the rules say you have to make a concentration, BUT I THINK I SHOULD, because it is a spell like ability and spells that do the similar thing (i.e HOLD PERSON, ENTANGLE, etc...) require it.  I don't know of any spell that you can "hold, grapple etc ..." and forget about it.  I THINK it is a spell like ability and should follow a similar spells rules.  

 The purpose of concentration is to provide a brake on the power of casters. In previous editions, casters could stack up buff spells on the party to absurd levels, and there was no good reason for them not to do it if the party was expecting a fight. It got silly fast, as I understand it.

Concentration basically means that you can have one buff or one debuff going, and that's it. You have to pick your spots.

There is also the concentration break to worry about. Again, this is because casters are very strong, even with the concentration limit. It provides a way for opponents to end a major effect without having to kill the caster outright.

Concentration on martial abilities solves neither problem. Martials don't have the stacking potential, and their ongoing abilities are not so battlefield-dominating that they need to be breakable.

It's not like all ongoing spells are concentration, anyway. They make deliberate choices about which ones need to be and which don't. Mirror image, mage armor, and blink, for instance, aren't. This is because they're relatively defensive abilities that are going to be used by casters in combat, where a concentration spell means a spell that won't be used. You need to get to the likes of shadow of moil before it merits it. You compare the monk's aura to hold person and entangle, and it's just not close. They have much greater effect (full paralysis and interdicting a 20x20 area), and can be done at range. The elemental aura lets the monk punch at slightly extended range, with the option to dip into grappling. The difference is significant.

Quote from Einkell_Battledrunk >>

I know nothing in the rules say you have to make a concentration, BUT I THINK I SHOULD, because it is a spell like ability and spells that do the similar thing (i.e HOLD PERSON, ENTANGLE, etc...) require it.  I don't know of any spell that you can "hold, grapple etc ..." and forget about it.  I THINK it is a spell like ability and should follow a similar spells rules.  I also believe that if the object you are grappling moves or gets moved outside of the 15 feet the grapple breaks.

 But it would only apply to using it to  grapple.

Quote from Einkell_Battledrunk >>

Quote from Einkell_Battledrunk >>

I know nothing in the rules say you have to make a concentration, BUT I THINK I SHOULD, because it is a spell like ability and spells that do the similar thing (i.e HOLD PERSON, ENTANGLE, etc...) require it.  I don't know of any spell that you can "hold, grapple etc ..." and forget about it.  I THINK it is a spell like ability and should follow a similar spells rules.  I also believe that if the object you are grappling moves or gets moved outside of the 15 feet the grapple breaks.

 But it would only apply to using it to  grapple.

I think that was understood. It's just a bad idea.