While Haste should allow both to take the Attack action and cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack, i believe it should still be limited to one attack only if the cantrip can somehow do more.
While Haste should allow both to take the Attack action and cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack, i believe it should still be limited to one attack only if the cantrip can somehow do more.
I should have made it clearer, but this is what I meant. That Haste gives an additional cantrip, it would never give both. My question was more, does it have to be a War Magic one or can it be a Valor Bard's Extra Attack one.
So 7 levels into eldritch knight, 6 levels into college of valor, 2 levels into sorcerer, plus a source of haste, and you could cast the same wizard cantrip up to 6 times in a turn. Plus a 7th time if you have war caster and manage to get your opportunity attack triggered during your turn. Alternatively, all but 2 of those could be a non-wizard cantrip. Though, if you're focusing on just casting a non-wizard cantrip as much as possible, then you could cut costs and sink only 2 levels into fighter. As of right now, I see no way of obtaining eldritch blast as a wizard cantrip, as seemingly every source of it specifies that it's still treated as a warlock spell.
[...] As of right now, I see no way of obtaining eldritch blast as a wizard cantrip, as seemingly every source of it specifies that it's still treated as a warlock spell.
Under the 2024 rules, at least using the core rulebooks, I think it's not possible.
Magic Initiative is limited to Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell lists, so if I'm not wrong, the only way to get access to Eldritch Blast is through multiclassing.
Don't you just need 6 levels into Bladesinger? Extra Attacks is a level 6 feature. Still limited to Wizard cantrips in the 2024 updated version, though.
As far as dealing with MAD, remember it's a wizard cantrip as long as its on the wizard spell list. So your Valor Bard/EK or Valor Bard/Bladesinger can use a cantrip they know as a bard in both swaps, so long as its on the wizard spell list, because its still a wizard cantrip, even though they know it as a bard (and use Cha for it).
It's not just about access to Eldritch Blast - you'd need to add it to your wizard spell list somehow, and that simply isn't possible afaik.
(So if what you want is EB abuse, Warlock1/Valor Bard6/Fighter 2/some way to get conjure minor elementals/someone to cast haste on you: looks like the best bet. I recommend Mark of the Storm + Potent Dragonmark as the best way to get Conjure Minor Elementals. And then you can just take Sorceror levels for the rest for metamagic. Maybe one more level of Warlock for more invocations?)
Don't you just need 6 levels into Bladesinger? Extra Attacks is a level 6 feature. Still limited to Wizard cantrips in the 2024 updated version, though.
Bladesinger Wizard 6 could replace Eldritch Knight Fighter 7.
However, once you have College of Valor 6, and Warlock 1/2 (level 1 for Eldritch Blast, 2 if you want level 2+ Invocations), you can continue down Eldritch Knight to 11 for two Extra Attacks. You could then probably follow up to College of Valor 7 and Eldritch Knight 12 (or 8 and 11) if you didn't take a second Warlock level. Take a level divisible by 4 at level 19 or 20 for Epic Boon access.
For Conjure Minor Elementals you can be a level 7+ Bard or use Mark of Storm + Potent Dragonmark. As a Warlock, you can take Hex, but this will compete with Conjure Minor Elementals when you can cast it.
One Melee Weapon Attack that does not have the Two-Handed property.
A Total of 17 Attacks, plus dealing damage to a secondary target 3 times with no additional attack roll or saving throw required. If you weapon juggle to switch to a Cleave attack on the non-Nick attack, you can get 18 attacks in one round. In addition to the base damage these attacks deal, you would have the additional damage from Hex or Conjure Minor Elementals. Hex will be +1D6. Conjure Minor Elementals will be +2D8 unless upcast (level 5 should be available at the end, maybe level 6).
This seems very strong for up-close burst damage. Positioning would be very important for this specific set of attacks, requiring targets within melee and ranged range, preferably without imposing disadvantage on the attacks. It's probably better to stick to something like True Strike using a ranged weapon so all of your attacks are ranged.
An Alternative would be College of Valor Bard 6, Bladesinger Wizard 6, Echo Knight 3 (Explorer's Guide to Wildemount), and Warlock 1. Theoretically, you could melee with an opponent in the area of your Conjure Minor Elementals while originating Eldritch Blasts from your Echo. This approach would not allow you to access three attacks per Attack action feature, however, you can still use Unleash Incarnation 1+ times per long rest to get an extra attack from your Echo's space.
The features that give you an Extra Attack don't generally stack with each other. This includes the Extra Attack feature and War Magic. However, for features that do more than allow to attack more than once per Attack action, those additional aspects do stack unless stated otherwise. This includes substituting a cantrip for College of Valor, Eldritch Knight, and Bladesinger. Nick and Unleash Incarnation (Echo Knight Fighter) do not state that they do not stack with Extra Attack and are not worded in a way that prevents them from stack, so they do stack (and it would be silly if Unleash Incarnation did not stack with Extra Attack).
Don't you just need 6 levels into Bladesinger? Extra Attacks is a level 6 feature. Still limited to Wizard cantrips in the 2024 updated version, though.
Bladesinger Wizard 6 could replace Eldritch Knight Fighter 7.
However, once you have College of Valor 6, and Warlock 1/2 (level 1 for Eldritch Blast, 2 if you want level 2+ Invocations), you can continue down Eldritch Knight to 11 for two Extra Attacks. You could then probably follow up to College of Valor 7 and Eldritch Knight 12 (or 8 and 11) if you didn't take a second Warlock level. Take a level divisible by 4 at level 19 or 20 for Epic Boon access.
For Conjure Minor Elementals you can be a level 7+ Bard or use Mark of Storm + Potent Dragonmark. As a Warlock, you can take Hex, but this will compete with Conjure Minor Elementals when you can cast it.
One Melee Weapon Attack that does not have the Two-Handed property.
A Total of 17 Attacks, plus dealing damage to a secondary target 3 times with no additional attack roll or saving throw required. If you weapon juggle to switch to a Cleave attack on the non-Nick attack, you can get 18 attacks in one round. In addition to the base damage these attacks deal, you would have the additional damage from Hex or Conjure Minor Elementals. Hex will be +1D6. Conjure Minor Elementals will be +2D8 unless upcast (level 5 should be available at the end, maybe level 6).
This seems very strong for up-close burst damage. Positioning would be very important for this specific set of attacks, requiring targets within melee and ranged range, preferably without imposing disadvantage on the attacks. It's probably better to stick to something like True Strike using a ranged weapon so all of your attacks are ranged.
An Alternative would be College of Valor Bard 6, Bladesinger Wizard 6, Echo Knight 3 (Explorer's Guide to Wildemount), and Warlock 1. Theoretically, you could melee with an opponent in the area of your Conjure Minor Elementals while originating Eldritch Blasts from your Echo. This approach would not allow you to access three attacks per Attack action feature, however, you can still use Unleash Incarnation 1+ times per long rest to get an extra attack from your Echo's space.
The features that give you an Extra Attack don't generally stack with each other. This includes the Extra Attack feature and War Magic. However, for features that do more than allow to attack more than once per Attack action, those additional aspects do stack unless stated otherwise. This includes substituting a cantrip for College of Valor, Eldritch Knight, and Bladesinger. Nick and Unleash Incarnation (Echo Knight Fighter) do not state that they do not stack with Extra Attack and are not worded in a way that prevents them from stack, so they do stack (and it would be silly if Unleash Incarnation did not stack with Extra Attack).
I'm pretty sure you want the second level of warlock so you can have both agonizing blast and pact weapon (so charisma on attacks and to EB damage).
That said, I'm not sure the EK is worth it, even if you do net an extra attack out of it.
Consider: Warlock 2/Valor Bard 6/Fighter 2/Sorceror 8/X2 (Bard or Sorceror - Bard gets you a feat, Sorceror higher level spells and more metamagic options) Mark of the Storm, Potent Dragonmark @Bard4 (probably level 5), Pact Weapon, Agonizing Blast
Bonus Action: Quickened Conjure Minor Elementals (upcast at 8th level for 6d8 per hit)
1 Attack Action: 1 Light Weapon attack with Cha, 1 Nick attack, EB w/ agonizing blast
(If Conjure ME is already up, you can Bonus Action a Quickened EB)
3 weapon attacks (2 with cha to hit and damage) + 12 EB attacks (Cha to hit and damage). Potentially 3d6 + 12d10 + 14xCha + 90d8 damage, 551.5 on average with 20 Cha. (Add another ~69 damage if CME is already up and you can quicken an EB)
if we assume you only hit 65% of the time, that's going to be more like ~360 damage, but that still seems like pretty good single-target nova damage.
(And the subsequent round is almost as good, since you don't have to cast CME, and can quicken EB at that point, so you only drop a single normal attack).
Being able to upcast CME at level 8 is probably worth more than a couple extra cantrip-enhanced melee attacks.
Open question whether the nick attack is worth it if you can't make it cha-based somehow... (Be human, take Magic Initiate (Druid) for Shillelagh, and use a club as your off-hand? Ug.)
Consider: Warlock 2/Valor Bard 6/Fighter 2/Sorceror 8/X2 (Bard or Sorceror - Bard gets you a feat, Sorceror higher level spells and more metamagic options) Mark of the Storm, Potent Dragonmark @Bard4 (probably level 5), Pact Weapon, Agonizing Blast
FYI, you don't need Potent Dragonmark if you are planning on upcasting Conjure Minor Elementals and can prepare level 4 spells (which you can't with Eldritch Knight 7/Bard 6, but you can with Sorcerer 8). Mark of the Storm will make it a Warlock, Bard, and Sorcerer spell. If you want the free 5th level slot or just want the extra prepared spells, go for it, but it's not needed.
Consider: Warlock 2/Valor Bard 6/Fighter 2/Sorceror 8/X2 (Bard or Sorceror - Bard gets you a feat, Sorceror higher level spells and more metamagic options) Mark of the Storm, Potent Dragonmark @Bard4 (probably level 5), Pact Weapon, Agonizing Blast
FYI, you don't need Potent Dragonmark if you are planning on upcasting Conjure Minor Elementals and can prepare level 4 spells (which you can't with Eldritch Knight 7/Bard 6, but you can with Sorcerer 8). Mark of the Storm will make it a Warlock, Bard, and Sorcerer spell. If you want the free 5th level slot or just want the extra prepared spells, go for it, but it's not needed.
Yeah, but, seemed relevant to the 'would you even do it' question.
The advantage to taking Potent Dragonmark is to get access to CME right at level 7 (with the Potent Dragonmark slot), which helps if you're actually playing the character and not just building it at high level. (In addition to the free spell slot, it also prepares all your dragonmark spells, which frees up your prepared spells for other things. And a free spell slot is not to be scoffed at, either.)
(As to it being the EK thread - i guess i figured it's relevant to the question of why you'd EK + Valor Bard).
The advantage to taking Potent Dragonmark is to get access to CME right at level 7 (with the Potent Dragonmark slot), which helps if you're actually playing the character and not just building it at high level. (In addition to the free spell slot, it also prepares all your dragonmark spells, which frees up your prepared spells for other things. And a free spell slot is not to be scoffed at, either.)
You can get access to CME at level 7 by starting in Sorcerer for 7-8 levels. The free slot is nice, but it will always be a 4th or 5th level slot when you can use it to cast CME. It's helpful, but it's not needed and there may be other feats that may be more helpful.
While Haste should allow both to take the Attack action and cast a cantrip in place of one of those attack, i believe it should still be limited to one attack only if the cantrip can somehow do more.
So, if I'm understanding well, for a level 6 College of Valor / level 7 Eldritch Knight:
- Attack action: 1 Wizard cantrip + 1 cantrip
- Action Surge: 1 Wizard cantrip + 1 cantrip
- Haste: 1 Wizard cantrip OR 1 cantrip
(casting time of an action for all the cases)
I think that's right, yes.
pronouns: he/she/they
I should have made it clearer, but this is what I meant. That Haste gives an additional cantrip, it would never give both. My question was more, does it have to be a War Magic one or can it be a Valor Bard's Extra Attack one.
Yup
So 7 levels into eldritch knight, 6 levels into college of valor, 2 levels into sorcerer, plus a source of haste, and you could cast the same wizard cantrip up to 6 times in a turn. Plus a 7th time if you have war caster and manage to get your opportunity attack triggered during your turn. Alternatively, all but 2 of those could be a non-wizard cantrip. Though, if you're focusing on just casting a non-wizard cantrip as much as possible, then you could cut costs and sink only 2 levels into fighter. As of right now, I see no way of obtaining eldritch blast as a wizard cantrip, as seemingly every source of it specifies that it's still treated as a warlock spell.
Under the 2024 rules, at least using the core rulebooks, I think it's not possible.
Magic Initiative is limited to Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell lists, so if I'm not wrong, the only way to get access to Eldritch Blast is through multiclassing.
EDIT: for clarity.
Don't you just need 6 levels into Bladesinger? Extra Attacks is a level 6 feature. Still limited to Wizard cantrips in the 2024 updated version, though.
As far as dealing with MAD, remember it's a wizard cantrip as long as its on the wizard spell list. So your Valor Bard/EK or Valor Bard/Bladesinger can use a cantrip they know as a bard in both swaps, so long as its on the wizard spell list, because its still a wizard cantrip, even though they know it as a bard (and use Cha for it).
It's not just about access to Eldritch Blast - you'd need to add it to your wizard spell list somehow, and that simply isn't possible afaik.
(So if what you want is EB abuse, Warlock1/Valor Bard6/Fighter 2/some way to get conjure minor elementals/someone to cast haste on you: looks like the best bet. I recommend Mark of the Storm + Potent Dragonmark as the best way to get Conjure Minor Elementals. And then you can just take Sorceror levels for the rest for metamagic. Maybe one more level of Warlock for more invocations?)
Bladesinger Wizard 6 could replace Eldritch Knight Fighter 7.
However, once you have College of Valor 6, and Warlock 1/2 (level 1 for Eldritch Blast, 2 if you want level 2+ Invocations), you can continue down Eldritch Knight to 11 for two Extra Attacks. You could then probably follow up to College of Valor 7 and Eldritch Knight 12 (or 8 and 11) if you didn't take a second Warlock level. Take a level divisible by 4 at level 19 or 20 for Epic Boon access.
For Conjure Minor Elementals you can be a level 7+ Bard or use Mark of Storm + Potent Dragonmark. As a Warlock, you can take Hex, but this will compete with Conjure Minor Elementals when you can cast it.
For silliness, Haste + Action Surge + Nick Mastery + Eldritch Blast + Dual Wielder at level 17+ (including 1 level of Warlock)
A Total of 17 Attacks, plus dealing damage to a secondary target 3 times with no additional attack roll or saving throw required. If you weapon juggle to switch to a Cleave attack on the non-Nick attack, you can get 18 attacks in one round. In addition to the base damage these attacks deal, you would have the additional damage from Hex or Conjure Minor Elementals. Hex will be +1D6. Conjure Minor Elementals will be +2D8 unless upcast (level 5 should be available at the end, maybe level 6).
This seems very strong for up-close burst damage. Positioning would be very important for this specific set of attacks, requiring targets within melee and ranged range, preferably without imposing disadvantage on the attacks. It's probably better to stick to something like True Strike using a ranged weapon so all of your attacks are ranged.
An Alternative would be College of Valor Bard 6, Bladesinger Wizard 6, Echo Knight 3 (Explorer's Guide to Wildemount), and Warlock 1. Theoretically, you could melee with an opponent in the area of your Conjure Minor Elementals while originating Eldritch Blasts from your Echo. This approach would not allow you to access three attacks per Attack action feature, however, you can still use Unleash Incarnation 1+ times per long rest to get an extra attack from your Echo's space.
The features that give you an Extra Attack don't generally stack with each other. This includes the Extra Attack feature and War Magic. However, for features that do more than allow to attack more than once per Attack action, those additional aspects do stack unless stated otherwise. This includes substituting a cantrip for College of Valor, Eldritch Knight, and Bladesinger. Nick and Unleash Incarnation (Echo Knight Fighter) do not state that they do not stack with Extra Attack and are not worded in a way that prevents them from stack, so they do stack (and it would be silly if Unleash Incarnation did not stack with Extra Attack).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I'm pretty sure you want the second level of warlock so you can have both agonizing blast and pact weapon (so charisma on attacks and to EB damage).
That said, I'm not sure the EK is worth it, even if you do net an extra attack out of it.
Consider: Warlock 2/Valor Bard 6/Fighter 2/Sorceror 8/X2 (Bard or Sorceror - Bard gets you a feat, Sorceror higher level spells and more metamagic options) Mark of the Storm, Potent Dragonmark @Bard4 (probably level 5), Pact Weapon, Agonizing Blast
Bonus Action: Quickened Conjure Minor Elementals (upcast at 8th level for 6d8 per hit)
1 Attack Action: 1 Light Weapon attack with Cha, 1 Nick attack, EB w/ agonizing blast
1 Attack Action (Surge): 1 weapon attack, EB w/ agonizing blast
1 Haste Attack: EB w/ agonizing blast
(If Conjure ME is already up, you can Bonus Action a Quickened EB)
3 weapon attacks (2 with cha to hit and damage) + 12 EB attacks (Cha to hit and damage). Potentially 3d6 + 12d10 + 14xCha + 90d8 damage, 551.5 on average with 20 Cha. (Add another ~69 damage if CME is already up and you can quicken an EB)
if we assume you only hit 65% of the time, that's going to be more like ~360 damage, but that still seems like pretty good single-target nova damage.
(And the subsequent round is almost as good, since you don't have to cast CME, and can quicken EB at that point, so you only drop a single normal attack).
Being able to upcast CME at level 8 is probably worth more than a couple extra cantrip-enhanced melee attacks.
Open question whether the nick attack is worth it if you can't make it cha-based somehow... (Be human, take Magic Initiate (Druid) for Shillelagh, and use a club as your off-hand? Ug.)
SmiteMakesRight_3_5 Very good combos! :)
One option to avoid Disadvantage could be thanks to the Spell Sniper feat:
Whether or not that is true, this is a thread about Eldritch Knight and War Magic.
FYI, you don't need Potent Dragonmark if you are planning on upcasting Conjure Minor Elementals and can prepare level 4 spells (which you can't with Eldritch Knight 7/Bard 6, but you can with Sorcerer 8). Mark of the Storm will make it a Warlock, Bard, and Sorcerer spell. If you want the free 5th level slot or just want the extra prepared spells, go for it, but it's not needed.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Yeah, but, seemed relevant to the 'would you even do it' question.
The advantage to taking Potent Dragonmark is to get access to CME right at level 7 (with the Potent Dragonmark slot), which helps if you're actually playing the character and not just building it at high level. (In addition to the free spell slot, it also prepares all your dragonmark spells, which frees up your prepared spells for other things. And a free spell slot is not to be scoffed at, either.)
(As to it being the EK thread - i guess i figured it's relevant to the question of why you'd EK + Valor Bard).
You can get access to CME at level 7 by starting in Sorcerer for 7-8 levels. The free slot is nice, but it will always be a 4th or 5th level slot when you can use it to cast CME. It's helpful, but it's not needed and there may be other feats that may be more helpful.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Gunner feat works too, as its effect applies to all ranged attack rolls, regardless of source.
Sure! That feat from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is nice.