a) If the creature is in the area when you cast the spell. EDIT: see #7 b) At the end of its turn, but only if it remains in the area. If the creature moves out of the area during its turn, it won't need to make the save. c) Also if the area enters a creature's space after casting the spell.
In any case, "a creature makes this save only once per turn."
I think this version was the attempt at a compromise where you can cast a spell and at least on one turn of guaranteed damage (the turn where you create the spell), but gives the opponent agency to move out of the area on its turns to prevent future damage. The caster can move to get more damage out of the spell, but the opponent always has the opportunity to move also to avoid some of the damage.
In general, except for grapple shenanigans, it feels fine in comparison to 2014, where every spell had its own rules and you had to remember which was which and sometimes you'd cast a spell and get nothing out of it because they'd move before they took damage or only ever take damage once or whatever.
a) If the creature is in the area when you cast the spell. b) At the end of its turn, but only if it remains in the area. If the creature moves out of the area during its turn, it won't need to make the save. c) Also if the area enters a creature's space after casting the spell.
In any case, "a creature makes this save only once per turn."
I've realized this reply is not accurate, sorry. Specifically "a)". I will use the next explanation from wagnarokkr, as it has the right ruling:
One thing to note first: the reason that Conjure Animals doesn't use the word "emanation" is because an Emanation is centered on a creature or object and moves around when that creature/object moves around. Conjure Animals intentionally does not work that way, so it doesn't use that word.
I think you may have some misconceptions about how the other spells work, so here is how these three spells you've referenced work:
Conjure Animals is a Large (i.e., 2x2 on a 5-foot grid map) area effect that can be moved around by the caster. It forces a creature to make a Dexterity save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves the area such that the creature is within 10 feet of it
The creature moves to a space within 10 feet of it (yes, even if they're already within 10 feet of it)
The creature ends its turn within 10 feet of it
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes damage only if they fail the save.
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are in the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
Spike Growth is a 20-foot Sphere that can't move. A creature takes damage from it if any of the following happen:
The creature enters the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature moves within the area, either willingly or forcibly
The creature takes damage for every five feet it moves in the area, with no per-turn limit. There is no saving throw to resist it, but no damage is dealt if the creature stays in one spot within it.
a) If the creature is in the area when you cast the spell. EDIT: see #7 b) At the end of its turn, but only if it remains in the area. If the creature moves out of the area during its turn, it won't need to make the save. c) Also if the area enters a creature's space after casting the spell.
In any case, "a creature makes this save only once per turn."
So, while a is not true, you can get a similar result by casting the spell 15.1+ feet away from a creature and then moving within 15 feet after you cast it.
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are in the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
This isn't technically true either, but I don't know if there was an errata between the post and now.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
wagnarokkr's original explanation would not trigger on forced movement, but the spell does not care how you enter the emanation so go ahead and drag and push foes into the emanation.
a) If the creature is in the area when you cast the spell. EDIT: see #7 b) At the end of its turn, but only if it remains in the area. If the creature moves out of the area during its turn, it won't need to make the save. c) Also if the area enters a creature's space after casting the spell.
In any case, "a creature makes this save only once per turn."
So, while a is not true, you can get a similar result by casting the spell 15.1+ feet away from a creature and then moving within 15 feet after you cast it.
Spirit Guardians is a 15-foot Emanation centered on the caster that moves around with the caster. It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are in the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
The creature is only subject to this effect the first time one of these things happens on a turn. The creature takes full damage if they fail the save and half damage if they succeed.
This isn't technically true either, but I don't know if there was an errata between the post and now.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
wagnarokkr's original explanation would not trigger on forced movement, but the spell does not care how you enter the emanation so go ahead and drag and push foes into the emanation.
Just to clarify, when I said "moves", that is what I meant: moving for any reason, including forced movement.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation or the caster casts the emanation such that it includes the creature.
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
Also, the caster can designate creatures to not take damage when they cast the spell (but not later).
I am not sure that creatures in the emanation when the spell is cast technically need to make a saving throw. When the Emanation is created, it has not technically entered the creature's space, the creature has not entered the emanation's space, and the creature has not ended its turn in the space.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation or the caster casts the emanation such that it includes the creature.
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
Also, the caster can designate creatures to not take damage when they cast the spell (but not later).
I am not sure that creatures in the emanation when the spell is cast technically need to make a saving throw. When the Emanation is created, it has not technically entered the creature's space, the creature has not entered the emanation's space, and the creature has not ended its turn in the space.
That's the thing I wanted to clarify earlier. I agree with you. From the same thread I got wagnarokkr's answer, I compared different wordings from other spells:
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
The caster moves such that the creature is in the Emanation or the caster casts the emanation such that it includes the creature.
The creature moves such that they are inenters the Emanation
The creature ends its turn in the Emanation
Also, the caster can designate creatures to not take damage when they cast the spell (but not later).
I am not sure that creatures in the emanation when the spell is cast technically need to make a saving throw. When the Emanation is created, it has not technically entered the creature's space, the creature has not entered the emanation's space, and the creature has not ended its turn in the space.
I've played a lot of clerics with a lot of DMs and never had it ruled that creating an emanation doesn't mean it enters a creature's space. Same as teleporting it to a new place makes it proc damage in the new place.
I've played a lot of clerics with a lot of DMs and never had it ruled that creating an emanation doesn't mean it enters a creature's space. Same as teleporting it to a new place makes it proc damage in the new place.
A few things:
Whether or not they did so with the 2024 rules, does not mean they ruled it per RAW.
Also, the spell changed between 2014 and 2024. (Consider whether you are evaluating your 2024+ experience with the spell)
2014: You made the save when you enter the area for the first time or start your turn within the area.
2024: You make the save when the Emanation enters the creature's space, when the creature enters the Emanation's space, or ends its turn within the Emanation. The creature only makes the save once per turn.
In neither version, does the spell description say that creatures within the Emanation's area when the spell is cast must make the save.
When you teleport, an Emanation centered on you moves to the space you teleport. That can result in the Emanation entering a creature's space.
You have to assume that creating the Emanation causes it to enter the space it occupies. It's not an unreasonable assumption, but I don't think it's technically correct. If another creature is not moving/being moved, the emanation's effects triggers when it moves into a creature's space. Does being created count as entering the space?
In the 2014 SAC, it is explicitly stated that creating an area does not constitute entering the area. This is, of course, not RAW for 2024 but hang on.
The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.
Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area. On the turn when you cast such a spell, you’re primarily setting up hurt for your foes on later turns. Moonbeam, for example, creates a beam of light that can damage a creature who enters the beam or who starts its turn in the beam.
Here are some spells with the same timing as moonbeam for their areas of effect:
Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved—as the beam of moonbeam can—does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.
Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise. You can, therefore, hurl a creature into the area with a spell like thunderwave. We consider that clever play, not an imbalance, so hurl away! Keep in mind, however, that a creature is subjected to such an area of effect only the first time it enters the area on a turn. You can’t move a creature in and out of it to damage it over and over again on the same turn.
In summary, a spell like moonbeam affects a creature when the creature passes into the spell’s area of effect and when the creature starts its turn there. You’re essentially creating a hazard on the battlefield.
This does not appear to be carried forward into the 2024 Sage Advice and Errata, so consider whether or not this was a deliberate change to how these spells work or if the RAI carries over to the 2024 rules.
It does not carry over for Moonbeam, but it is worded significantly differently than Spirit Guardians.
Compare Spirit Guardians:
When you cast this spell, you can designate creatures to be unaffected by it. Any other creature’s Speed is halved in the Emanation, and whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there, the creature must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 Radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 Necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
Versus Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d10 Radiant damage, and if the creature is shape-shifted (as a result of the Polymorph spell, for example), it reverts to its true form and can’t shape-shift until it leaves the Cylinder. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage only. A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
Moonbeam explicitly says that creatures make a save when the area is first created (when the spell is cast). Spirit Guardians has the opportunity to but does not. Both have the same language about making the save when the area moves into the creature's space, a creature moves into the area's space, or ends its turn there. Moonbeam's author does not appear to consider that sufficient to take effect when the spell is cast.
Yeah, I started this comment thinking technically it doesn't take effect when you cast, but I am pretty convinced now; it's not a technicality. Moonbeam shows that it is not sufficient to create an area for it to be considered as entering a space. I think the Sage Advice was not carried forward because the discussion was prompted by Moonbeam and Moonbeam was changed, but it should probably be restored for the scenarios that didn't change.
Spirit Guardians is a potentially very nasty spell. A 15-foot emanation doesn't sound amazing, but if you can plop it next to someone with the Sentinel Feat, their life will be rough.
If an enemy is next to you when you cast spirit guardians is it hit twice in the first round if it does move out of range.
whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space
and whenever a creature enters the Emanation
or ends its turn there,
To look at it another way, when you initially cast it, does it spell enter everyones space, and so you roll damage when you cast it?
The creature must make a Wisdom saving throw:
a) If the creature is in the area when you cast the spell.EDIT: see #7b) At the end of its turn, but only if it remains in the area. If the creature moves out of the area during its turn, it won't need to make the save.
c) Also if the area enters a creature's space after casting the spell.
In any case, "a creature makes this save only once per turn."
So (2024 rules) you are saying yes it can hit twice on the first round
- first time on the clerics turn
- again on its turn if it sticks around
Its just a lot of damage.
It depends, really. This thread compares several scenarios between the 2014 and 2024 behavior of Moonbeam: Question about the new rules of when creatures take damage from ongoing spell effects - Rules & Game Mechanics
Moonbeam behaves similarly to spells like Spirit Guardians, Conjure Animals or Cloudkill as well as others with similar wording.
I think this version was the attempt at a compromise where you can cast a spell and at least on one turn of guaranteed damage (the turn where you create the spell), but gives the opponent agency to move out of the area on its turns to prevent future damage. The caster can move to get more damage out of the spell, but the opponent always has the opportunity to move also to avoid some of the damage.
In general, except for grapple shenanigans, it feels fine in comparison to 2014, where every spell had its own rules and you had to remember which was which and sometimes you'd cast a spell and get nothing out of it because they'd move before they took damage or only ever take damage once or whatever.
@Greg07151 besides the link I posted earlier, there are are some interesting recent threads about your thoughts or concerns:
I've realized this reply is not accurate, sorry. Specifically "a)". I will use the next explanation from wagnarokkr, as it has the right ruling:
So, while a is not true, you can get a similar result by casting the spell 15.1+ feet away from a creature and then moving within 15 feet after you cast it.
This isn't technically true either, but I don't know if there was an errata between the post and now.
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
moves such that they are inenters the Emanationwagnarokkr's original explanation would not trigger on forced movement, but the spell does not care how you enter the emanation so go ahead and drag and push foes into the emanation.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Just to clarify, when I said "moves", that is what I meant: moving for any reason, including forced movement.
pronouns: he/she/they
It forces a creature to make a Wisdom save when any of the following happen:
moves such that they are inenters the EmanationAlso, the caster can designate creatures to not take damage when they cast the spell (but not later).
I am not sure that creatures in the emanation when the spell is cast technically need to make a saving throw. When the Emanation is created, it has not technically entered the creature's space, the creature has not entered the emanation's space, and the creature has not ended its turn in the space.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
That's the thing I wanted to clarify earlier. I agree with you. From the same thread I got wagnarokkr's answer, I compared different wordings from other spells:
EDIT: this recent thread is also useful: Conjure Woodland Beings / Spirit Guardians an teleportation spells
I've played a lot of clerics with a lot of DMs and never had it ruled that creating an emanation doesn't mean it enters a creature's space. Same as teleporting it to a new place makes it proc damage in the new place.
A few things:
You have to assume that creating the Emanation causes it to enter the space it occupies. It's not an unreasonable assumption, but I don't think it's technically correct. If another creature is not moving/being moved, the emanation's effects triggers when it moves into a creature's space. Does being created count as entering the space?
In the 2014 SAC, it is explicitly stated that creating an area does not constitute entering the area. This is, of course, not RAW for 2024 but hang on.
This does not appear to be carried forward into the 2024 Sage Advice and Errata, so consider whether or not this was a deliberate change to how these spells work or if the RAI carries over to the 2024 rules.
It does not carry over for Moonbeam, but it is worded significantly differently than Spirit Guardians.
Compare Spirit Guardians:
Versus Moonbeam:
Moonbeam explicitly says that creatures make a save when the area is first created (when the spell is cast). Spirit Guardians has the opportunity to but does not. Both have the same language about making the save when the area moves into the creature's space, a creature moves into the area's space, or ends its turn there. Moonbeam's author does not appear to consider that sufficient to take effect when the spell is cast.
Yeah, I started this comment thinking technically it doesn't take effect when you cast, but I am pretty convinced now; it's not a technicality. Moonbeam shows that it is not sufficient to create an area for it to be considered as entering a space. I think the Sage Advice was not carried forward because the discussion was prompted by Moonbeam and Moonbeam was changed, but it should probably be restored for the scenarios that didn't change.
Spirit Guardians is a potentially very nasty spell. A 15-foot emanation doesn't sound amazing, but if you can plop it next to someone with the Sentinel Feat, their life will be rough.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.