Cleave - "On a hit, the second creature takes the weapon's damage, but don't add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative."
Can you add the damage bonus from great weapon master feat to the cleave attack? How about the weapons magic bonus?
Cleave seems to only disqualify your ability score modifier to the damage but does not mention denying any other type of additional damage bonus.
The Great Weapon Master feat is usable when you hit a creature with a weapon that has the Heavy property as part of the Attack action on your turn, but Cleave Mastery doesn't specifically make the attack against a second creature as part of the Attack action so technically i believe they don't work exactly because they left the action out for it to be usable anytime you can.
If you take the attack action and use cleave on that attack action, labeling the cleave as NOT an attack on the attack action makes no sense since it requires an attack roll. Anything that requires an attack roll is an attack.
So i think the way i am going to run it is:
Cleave attack that is triggered by an attack on the attack action does add great weapon master bonus. GWM feat does not require an "Attack on the attack action", it only requires you hit a creature "as a part of the attack action". Cleave seems to fit this.
Cleave attack, that is triggered by an attack from a bonus action or reaction does not add great weapon master bonus.
Any cleave attack does add magical bonuses to damage.
Spells like hunters mark or divine favor are added to the cleave attack.
Extra weapon damage dice (like extra 1d6 from frost brand) do apply to cleave attack.
It seems like there are quite a few ways to boost the damage of the cleave attack. Enough to make it really good in the right circumstances.
If you take the attack action and use cleave on that attack action, labeling the cleave as NOT an attack on the attack action makes no sense since it requires an attack roll. Anything that requires an attack roll is an attack.
The question isn't whether it's an attack, the question is whether it's part of the action that triggered the cleave, or something else (it does not describe any action type at all).
IMHO an attack is only part of an Attack action if it specifically say so, such as Nick Mastery for example, otherwise it isn't part of it.
I believe Cleave Mastery was worded this way so you could use it following attacks made as Bonus Action or Reaction.
It would also follow on that Cleave can be used with weapon attacks performed as part of a spell, such as true strike. which Nick does not benefit from either.
Cleave just needs a bit more clarification in this area.
IMHO an attack is only part of an Attack action if it specifically say so, such as Nick Mastery for example, otherwise it isn't part of it.
An attack is part of the Attack action if it happens during the Attack action
If you have Extra Attack and hit with your first attack with a Cleave weapon, you don't suspend the Attack action to make the extra Cleave attack
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you have Extra Attack and hit with your first attack with a Cleave weapon, you don't suspend the Attack action to make the extra Cleave attack
There are plenty of places where you do exactly that (for example, smite spells, extra attack from great weapon mastery), so I wouldn't call it clear-cut, but the fact no action is specified probably means it's considered part of the triggering action.
If you have Extra Attack and hit with your first attack with a Cleave weapon, you don't suspend the Attack action to make the extra Cleave attack
There are plenty of places where you do exactly that (for example, smite spells, extra attack from great weapon mastery), so I wouldn't call it clear-cut, but the fact no action is specified probably means it's considered part of the triggering action.
Yeah, those specify a Bonus Action, which would supersede/pause the Attack action since the rules say you only take one action at a time
The extra Cleave attack isn't a separate action of any kind
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
An attack is part of the Attack action if it happens during the Attack action
Cleave Mastery doesn't say it happen during the Attack action because it doesn't refer to it at all.
Cleave doesn't indicate when it happens because it can happen as an add-on to different types of Actions
If it specified Attack action, you couldn't use as part of a Reaction (Opportunity Attack), for instance
By your argument, if it doesn't specify what type of Action it's part of, it's not part of any Action at all -- which is impossible
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When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack.
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is not what the link says. It says some actions let you make attack, not that it has to be part of those. I'll give it to you most are, but we can see Cleave Mastery was designed more open to be usable following up any attack. #GeneralvsSpecific
That is not what the link says. It says some actions let you make attack, not that it has to be part of those. I'll give it to you most are, but we can see Cleave Mastery was designed more open to be usable following up any attack. #GeneralvsSpecific
Yes.
It's reasonable to assume that it's considered part of the action (Attack, Magic, bonus action, reaction) that allowed it to happen, but, as you said, they didn't actually say so.
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Cleave - "On a hit, the second creature takes the weapon's damage, but don't add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative."
Can you add the damage bonus from great weapon master feat to the cleave attack? How about the weapons magic bonus?
Cleave seems to only disqualify your ability score modifier to the damage but does not mention denying any other type of additional damage bonus.
If it doesn't explicitly exclude the other bonuses, they apply.
Incidentally, it appears to be legal to cleave after an opportunity attack.
The Great Weapon Master feat is usable when you hit a creature with a weapon that has the Heavy property as part of the Attack action on your turn, but Cleave Mastery doesn't specifically make the attack against a second creature as part of the Attack action so technically i believe they don't work exactly because they left the action out for it to be usable anytime you can.
I remember a debate about Cleave as part of the Attack action in this thread: Cleave and great weapon mastery - Rules & Game Mechanics
IMHO an attack is only part of an Attack action if it specifically say so, such as Nick Mastery for example, otherwise it isn't part of it.
I believe Cleave Mastery was worded this way so you could use it following attacks made as Bonus Action or Reaction.
I agree. Actually, I realized I left a wrong idea in the linked thread. I'll update it now.
Thanks for the feedback
If you take the attack action and use cleave on that attack action, labeling the cleave as NOT an attack on the attack action makes no sense since it requires an attack roll. Anything that requires an attack roll is an attack.
So i think the way i am going to run it is:
Cleave attack that is triggered by an attack on the attack action does add great weapon master bonus. GWM feat does not require an "Attack on the attack action", it only requires you hit a creature "as a part of the attack action". Cleave seems to fit this.
Cleave attack, that is triggered by an attack from a bonus action or reaction does not add great weapon master bonus.
Any cleave attack does add magical bonuses to damage.
Spells like hunters mark or divine favor are added to the cleave attack.
Extra weapon damage dice (like extra 1d6 from frost brand) do apply to cleave attack.
It seems like there are quite a few ways to boost the damage of the cleave attack. Enough to make it really good in the right circumstances.
The question isn't whether it's an attack, the question is whether it's part of the action that triggered the cleave, or something else (it does not describe any action type at all).
It would also follow on that Cleave can be used with weapon attacks performed as part of a spell, such as true strike. which Nick does not benefit from either.
Cleave just needs a bit more clarification in this area.
An attack is part of the Attack action if it happens during the Attack action
If you have Extra Attack and hit with your first attack with a Cleave weapon, you don't suspend the Attack action to make the extra Cleave attack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There are plenty of places where you do exactly that (for example, smite spells, extra attack from great weapon mastery), so I wouldn't call it clear-cut, but the fact no action is specified probably means it's considered part of the triggering action.
Yeah, those specify a Bonus Action, which would supersede/pause the Attack action since the rules say you only take one action at a time
The extra Cleave attack isn't a separate action of any kind
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Cleave Mastery doesn't say it happen during the Attack action because it doesn't refer to it at all.
Is this referenced in the rules somewhere?
Cleave doesn't indicate when it happens because it can happen as an add-on to different types of Actions
If it specified Attack action, you couldn't use as part of a Reaction (Opportunity Attack), for instance
By your argument, if it doesn't specify what type of Action it's part of, it's not part of any Action at all -- which is impossible
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But where does it say it's impossible? The game feature do what they say they do.
This assumption isn't unreasonable by any means, but doesn't seem to have RAW to support.
Any attack you make has to be part of the defined action economy. There's no option for an attack that isn't part of some kind of action
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes.
It's reasonable to assume that it's considered part of the action (Attack, Magic, bonus action, reaction) that allowed it to happen, but, as you said, they didn't actually say so.