The rules provide an example where taking one feat of their choice can be an Epic Boon feat, meaning Epic Boon feats don't necessarily need to be granted by the Epic Boon feature.
Bonus Feats at Level 20: A DM can use feats as a form of advancement after characters reach level 20 to provide greater power to characters who have no more levels to gain. With this approach, each character gains one feat of their choice for every 30,000 XP the character earns above 355,000 XP. Epic Boon feats are especially appropriate for these bonus feats, but a player can choose any feat for which their level 20 character qualifies.
Here is a related question;
I'm a level 12 Bard/8 Assassin Rogue. When I gain an extra 30,000 XP can I gain a level in Rogue or do features like Infiltration Expertise remain permanently out of my grasp at this point?
I looked in the DMG, and there was nothing there that I could find.
I'm wondering if there might be something in later books to expand on a post-20 game for the 2024 rules. Still, right now, my read seems to be that no, you don't continue to gain features because you don't really 'level' past 20 since the Bonus Feats rule doesn't mention anything like continuing to gain hit dice and specifically uses the term 'no more levels to gain.'
Still, I'm wondering how other people read it. Sometimes, their interpretations surprise me, and sometimes, someone points out something I didn't even realize existed (e.g., spells with a range of Self, no Area, but that clearly Targets someone other than the caster).
Is there anything official from WoTC about when you get the epic boon? There are plenty of people who think that if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon, or any feat, at 19th level. This is from Roll20:
" If you're level 15 of one class, then 2 of another, then 3 of a third, you're not going to get [the epic boon] because you didn't get a feat at levels 19 or 20."
Is there anything official from WoTC about when you get the epic boon? There are plenty of people who think that if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon, or any feat, at 19th level. This is from Roll20:
" If you're level 15 of one class, then 2 of another, then 3 of a third, you're not going to get [the epic boon] because you didn't get a feat at levels 19 or 20."
It's not as simple as "if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon". But in that specific situation, you do not have any opportunity to get an epic boon. This is because epic boon feats require your total character level to be at least 19, but at levels 19 and 20 you don't have any class features that offer you a feat. However, a multiclass build that includes 16 levels of one class and 4 of another could get two epic boon feats (one at character level 19 and one at character level 20) if the levels were taken in the right order.
This how it works based on the rules in the Player's Handbook. That's really the only official thing there needs to be.
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
This is why I think there needs to be a clarification/ruling/errata from WoTC. Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature.
You're level 20 and with your level 4 Ability Score Improvement Class Feature, you can select an Epic Boon feat with another feat of your choice for which you qualify being Level 19+.
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
It's not contradictory at all. When a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for based on the feat's prerequisites. The only prerequisite for epic boon feats is that your character level is at least 19. This means that if you, for instance, reach level 16 in one class while having 3 levels in another class, your character level is 19, and you can take an epic boon feat as part of the level 16 class feature that grants a feat. This doesn't work in the 15+2+2 case, because when you reach character levels 19 and 20, you are not getting any class features that offer a feat at all.
Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
If you get to 19th level in one class, you get a class feature that grants you a feat of your choice. It can be any feat you qualify for, including (but not limited to) epic boon feats. You qualify for epic boon feats at this point because your character level is at least 19.
If your character level is at least 19 in some combination of classes, you qualify for epic boon feats (again, because the only prerequisite is character level 19). You don't automatically get one; you can get one if at that level you're getting a class feature that grants you a feat.
But, you never get to the class feature that grants you the ability to take the epic boon feat!
But you get other class features that do allow you to take epic boon feats.
Again, when a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for. The only prerequisite for the epic boon feats is being character level 19, so if you’re character level 19 or higher, you can take an epic boon feat for any feature that grants you a feat. That feature doesn’t need to explicitly say you can take an epic boon feat with it.
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
It's not contradictory at all. When a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for based on the feat's prerequisites. The only prerequisite for epic boon feats is that your character level is at least 19. This means that if you, for instance, reach level 16 in one class while having 3 levels in another class, your character level is 19, and you can take an epic boon feat as part of the level 16 class feature that grants a feat. This doesn't work in the 15+2+2 case, because when you reach character levels 19 and 20, you are not getting any class features that offer a feat at all.
Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
If you get to 19th level in one class, you get a class feature that grants you a feat of your choice. It can be any feat you qualify for, including (but not limited to) epic boon feats. You qualify for epic boon feats at this point because your character level is at least 19.
If your character level is at least 19 in some combination of classes, you qualify for epic boon feats (again, because the only prerequisite is character level 19). You don't automatically get one; you can get one if at that level you're getting a class feature that grants you a feat.
The rules say that you can't take/use a feature until your class table says you qualify for that feature. You don't qualify for the epic boon feat until you hit level 19 in ONE class.
This is why (a) I think this needs clarification from WoTC; (b) why the 2024 rules ARE VERY BADLY WRITTEN AND ARE MOSTLY GARBAGE.
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
It's not contradictory at all. When a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for based on the feat's prerequisites. The only prerequisite for epic boon feats is that your character level is at least 19. This means that if you, for instance, reach level 16 in one class while having 3 levels in another class, your character level is 19, and you can take an epic boon feat as part of the level 16 class feature that grants a feat. This doesn't work in the 15+2+2 case, because when you reach character levels 19 and 20, you are not getting any class features that offer a feat at all.
Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
If you get to 19th level in one class, you get a class feature that grants you a feat of your choice. It can be any feat you qualify for, including (but not limited to) epic boon feats. You qualify for epic boon feats at this point because your character level is at least 19.
If your character level is at least 19 in some combination of classes, you qualify for epic boon feats (again, because the only prerequisite is character level 19). You don't automatically get one; you can get one if at that level you're getting a class feature that grants you a feat.
The rules say that you can't take/use a feature until your class table says you qualify for that feature. You don't qualify for the epic boon feat until you hit level 19 in ONE class.
This is why (a) I think this needs clarification from WoTC; (b) why the 2024 rules ARE VERY BADLY WRITTEN AND ARE MOSTLY GARBAGE.
There is nothing in the rules that indicates that. You might as well say you need to be level 19+ in fighter.
But, you never get to the class feature that grants you the ability to take the epic boon feat!
But you get other class features that do allow you to take epic boon feats.
Again, when a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for. The only prerequisite for the epic boon feats is being character level 19, so if you’re character level 19 or higher, you can take an epic boon feat for any feature that grants you a feat. That feature doesn’t need to explicitly say you can take an epic boon feat with it.
This is correct. All of the ability score improvement features say "You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify." Epic boon feats are still feats just like general and origin feats. The qualification is listed with each feat in parentheses and the epic boons all have (level 19+) not (class level 19+). The name of the epic boon class feature and ability score improvement class feature tend to trip people up.
You don't qualify for the epic boon feat until you hit level 19 in ONE class.
There is nothing in the Player's Handbook that says this.
Again, feat prerequisites are based on character level, not class level. So if a class feature that you get at character level 19 grants you a feat, the feat you select can be an epic boon feat, because you meet the prerequisite for that feat.
" If you're level 15 of one class, then 2 of another, then 3 of a third, you're not going to get [the epic boon] because you didn't get a feat at levels 19 or 20."
This is a pretty poor example (at least poorly worded). Because if you take those levels in the order of 15 then 2 then 3 then it is correct that you don't gain any feat at level 19 (or above). But if you wait until the end to take level 14 and 15 of the Fighter class then you actually do get an ASI class feature at level 19.
This is why (a) I think this needs clarification from WoTC; (b) why the 2024 rules ARE VERY BADLY WRITTEN AND ARE MOSTLY GARBAGE.
While I do think that parts of the rules are poorly written that isn't the case with this rule though, it is short, simple and easy to follow. The only issue here is that some people assume that the written rules doesn't match the intention of the rule. And that might well be true but until we get some errata that says so I don't see any problem with following the current rule.
Well, I think WOTC really should put an "official" ruling. With WOTC either getting rid of, or being unable to hold onto some of their greatest game designers, I do wonder if or when we might get that ruling. I do see where either side could be correct.
#1. When I look under class features in the class features table. The player's character does not get a Epic Boon until they reach level 19 in that class. So, when I look there, I agree with the "You must be level 19 in a class." Plus, while Roll20 isn't WOTC. They do give a clear explanation backing this up.
#2. When you look under each Epic Boon Feat it does say level 19+ prerequisite. I do see where one can read that take it, that this means total character level is 19.
Still, quoting the 2024 Player's Handbook Chapter 5: Feats, it does state (emphasis mine) "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify."
So, my thoughts are these...
Given what 2024 Player's Handbook says under Chapter 5: Feats with "your class" gives you the feat. So if, "your class" gives you the feat and
Epic Boon is clearly spelled out on each class feature's table and detailed description.
Epic Boon does show up on each class's table as unavailable till level 19.
While Roll20 is not owned by WOTC, Roll20 does make their money from people playing D&D (as well as other games), so they would not want to make decisions that WOTC would not want. They would want to make sure their take is compliant with what the WOTC would want. So, while technically not an official WOTC ruling, I would still say it carries someweight.
So, adding all of that together, since in Chapter 5 it does spell out your class (notyour classes) gives you the feat, it is spelled out on each class's table as well as it being spelled out in each class's features, the Epic Boon is not available, till a person gets to level 19 in that class. I would rule that we need to honor the "your class" in Chapter 5 as well a both the class's table as well as class's detailed features stating it is a class level 19 feature.
That is my take.
Remember each table can rule as they wish. As E Gary Gygax did state, "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
Still, I would like WOTC to make if "official" as I doubted I changed many people's take on this. That and I have heard a fair number of DMs complain (at least with 2014 rules) that it was hard to challenge high level characters.
Overall, I think the most important thing is that EVERYONE at every table should have fun. While, at times the best thing for a player to do is to walk away from a group that they do not gel with, they should discuss this as a group and come and an agreement all can work with. :)
So, adding all of that together, since in Chapter 5 it does spell out your class (notyour classes) gives you the feat, it is spelled out on each class's table as well as it being spelled out in each class's features, the Epic Boon is not available, till a person gets to level 19 in that class. I would rule that we need to honor the "your class" in Chapter 5 as well a both the class's table as well as class's detailed features stating it is a class level 19 feature.
So your argument amounts to the sentence "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify." containing "...your class gives you the... feat..."? That sentence also contains, "...your class gives you... another feat for which you qualify."
You also say that a proof is that the level 19 feature is called Epic Boon. Aside from that type of thing only being useful in determining RAI, the asi feature is called Ability Score Improvement. Does that mean there is no other way to increase your ability scores?
The ASI is the easiest and main way from what I understand to permanently increase an ability score. Granted, some classes many have a feature that grants ability score improvements, like the level 20 Monk feature increasing their dexterity and wisdom by 4 to a max of 25. There are also magic items that can help. I would suspect some DMs might allow Wish to be used to increase an ability score.
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Here is a related question;
I'm a level 12 Bard/8 Assassin Rogue. When I gain an extra 30,000 XP can I gain a level in Rogue or do features like Infiltration Expertise remain permanently out of my grasp at this point?
Up to your DM as Character Advancement only goes up to level 20 and Player's Handbook offer no other guideline.
The Dungeon Master Guide might have more on this topic.
I looked in the DMG, and there was nothing there that I could find.
I'm wondering if there might be something in later books to expand on a post-20 game for the 2024 rules. Still, right now, my read seems to be that no, you don't continue to gain features because you don't really 'level' past 20 since the Bonus Feats rule doesn't mention anything like continuing to gain hit dice and specifically uses the term 'no more levels to gain.'
Still, I'm wondering how other people read it. Sometimes, their interpretations surprise me, and sometimes, someone points out something I didn't even realize existed (e.g., spells with a range of Self, no Area, but that clearly Targets someone other than the caster).
Is there anything official from WoTC about when you get the epic boon? There are plenty of people who think that if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon, or any feat, at 19th level. This is from Roll20:
" If you're level 15 of one class, then 2 of another, then 3 of a third, you're not going to get [the epic boon] because you didn't get a feat at levels 19 or 20."
It's not as simple as "if you multiclass, you don't get the epic boon". But in that specific situation, you do not have any opportunity to get an epic boon. This is because epic boon feats require your total character level to be at least 19, but at levels 19 and 20 you don't have any class features that offer you a feat. However, a multiclass build that includes 16 levels of one class and 4 of another could get two epic boon feats (one at character level 19 and one at character level 20) if the levels were taken in the right order.
This how it works based on the rules in the Player's Handbook. That's really the only official thing there needs to be.
pronouns: he/she/they
But what you've written is contradictory. If you get to level 16 in one class and 4 in another, you never get to 19th level in any class, and never get the opportunity to get the epic boon which is a 19th level feature. If you get it in your situation, you should get in the other situation (15+2+3). Essentially, iin the 16+4 situation you may get a feat, but you only get an epic boon feat if you get to level 19 in the class. If you get it if you hit 19 total levels, then you should get it at any combination - 16+3, or 15+2+2.
This is why I think there needs to be a clarification/ruling/errata from WoTC. Do you get the Epic Boon when you have 19 levels in any combination, or do you have to get to 19th level in ONE class, to get the class feature, that gives you an Epic Boon.
You're level 20 and with your level 4 Ability Score Improvement Class Feature, you can select an Epic Boon feat with another feat of your choice for which you qualify being Level 19+.
It's not contradictory at all. When a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for based on the feat's prerequisites. The only prerequisite for epic boon feats is that your character level is at least 19. This means that if you, for instance, reach level 16 in one class while having 3 levels in another class, your character level is 19, and you can take an epic boon feat as part of the level 16 class feature that grants a feat. This doesn't work in the 15+2+2 case, because when you reach character levels 19 and 20, you are not getting any class features that offer a feat at all.
If you get to 19th level in one class, you get a class feature that grants you a feat of your choice. It can be any feat you qualify for, including (but not limited to) epic boon feats. You qualify for epic boon feats at this point because your character level is at least 19.
If your character level is at least 19 in some combination of classes, you qualify for epic boon feats (again, because the only prerequisite is character level 19). You don't automatically get one; you can get one if at that level you're getting a class feature that grants you a feat.
pronouns: he/she/they
But, you never get to the class feature that grants you the ability to take the epic boon feat!
But you get other class features that do allow you to take epic boon feats.
Again, when a class feature grants you a feat, you can take any feat you qualify for. The only prerequisite for the epic boon feats is being character level 19, so if you’re character level 19 or higher, you can take an epic boon feat for any feature that grants you a feat. That feature doesn’t need to explicitly say you can take an epic boon feat with it.
pronouns: he/she/they
The rules say that you can't take/use a feature until your class table says you qualify for that feature. You don't qualify for the epic boon feat until you hit level 19 in ONE class.
This is why (a) I think this needs clarification from WoTC; (b) why the 2024 rules ARE VERY BADLY WRITTEN AND ARE MOSTLY GARBAGE.
There is nothing in the rules that indicates that. You might as well say you need to be level 19+ in fighter.
This is correct. All of the ability score improvement features say "You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify." Epic boon feats are still feats just like general and origin feats. The qualification is listed with each feat in parentheses and the epic boons all have (level 19+) not (class level 19+). The name of the epic boon class feature and ability score improvement class feature tend to trip people up.
There is nothing in the Player's Handbook that says this.
Again, feat prerequisites are based on character level, not class level. So if a class feature that you get at character level 19 grants you a feat, the feat you select can be an epic boon feat, because you meet the prerequisite for that feat.
pronouns: he/she/they
This is a pretty poor example (at least poorly worded). Because if you take those levels in the order of 15 then 2 then 3 then it is correct that you don't gain any feat at level 19 (or above). But if you wait until the end to take level 14 and 15 of the Fighter class then you actually do get an ASI class feature at level 19.
While I do think that parts of the rules are poorly written that isn't the case with this rule though, it is short, simple and easy to follow. The only issue here is that some people assume that the written rules doesn't match the intention of the rule. And that might well be true but until we get some errata that says so I don't see any problem with following the current rule.
An errata will be required if Epic Boon feat aren't intended to be taken with Ability Score Improvement feature when your total character level 19+
Well, I think WOTC really should put an "official" ruling. With WOTC either getting rid of, or being unable to hold onto some of their greatest game designers, I do wonder if or when we might get that ruling. I do see where either side could be correct.
#1. When I look under class features in the class features table. The player's character does not get a Epic Boon until they reach level 19 in that class. So, when I look there, I agree with the "You must be level 19 in a class." Plus, while Roll20 isn't WOTC. They do give a clear explanation backing this up.
#2. When you look under each Epic Boon Feat it does say level 19+ prerequisite. I do see where one can read that take it, that this means total character level is 19.
Still, quoting the 2024 Player's Handbook Chapter 5: Feats, it does state (emphasis mine) "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify."
So, my thoughts are these...
So, adding all of that together, since in Chapter 5 it does spell out your class (not your classes) gives you the feat, it is spelled out on each class's table as well as it being spelled out in each class's features, the Epic Boon is not available, till a person gets to level 19 in that class. I would rule that we need to honor the "your class" in Chapter 5 as well a both the class's table as well as class's detailed features stating it is a class level 19 feature.
That is my take.
Remember each table can rule as they wish. As E Gary Gygax did state, "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
Still, I would like WOTC to make if "official" as I doubted I changed many people's take on this. That and I have heard a fair number of DMs complain (at least with 2014 rules) that it was hard to challenge high level characters.
Overall, I think the most important thing is that EVERYONE at every table should have fun. While, at times the best thing for a player to do is to walk away from a group that they do not gel with, they should discuss this as a group and come and an agreement all can work with. :)
So your argument amounts to the sentence "Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify." containing "...your class gives you the... feat..."? That sentence also contains, "...your class gives you... another feat for which you qualify."
You also say that a proof is that the level 19 feature is called Epic Boon. Aside from that type of thing only being useful in determining RAI, the asi feature is called Ability Score Improvement. Does that mean there is no other way to increase your ability scores?
The ASI is the easiest and main way from what I understand to permanently increase an ability score. Granted, some classes many have a feature that grants ability score improvements, like the level 20 Monk feature increasing their dexterity and wisdom by 4 to a max of 25. There are also magic items that can help. I would suspect some DMs might allow Wish to be used to increase an ability score.