That makes sense. But D&D combat isn't resolved that way though. First you roll initiative and then you decide on your actions (which could be to run away). Am I wrong?
If the action that determined initiative being rolled in the first place came from the rogue - it has to resolve, even if they aren't the first to 'act' in the initiative order. He has declared his action - he is making that action when everyone rolls for initiative - when that action resolves depends on his place in the initiative order.
Otherwise, what are we rolling initiative for? A hypothetical attack? Bear in mind, initiative isn't an actual action. It's merely a numerical representation of the order in which a round of actions resolve.
Put another way, you can't change your mind on something you've already done. It would be like saying 'I try and disarm the trap', then rolling a 1, and then deciding you don't want to try and disarm the trap.
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
Say we are talking about a situation where an assassin PC is trying to sneak up on a lone guard and kill them.
Looking at the relevant explanation text around those:
1. Determine Surprise.
Not much to say about that other than to quote, "The DM determines who might be surprised," and the stealth vs perception checks.
3. Roll Initiative
"When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Again, fairly clear. That we've gotten as far as rolling initiative means the DM has declared that combat has started, due to actions by players or monsters.
For our example, let's say that the guard rolls initiative of 18 and the player assassin rolls 14.
4. Take Turns
Now this is the bit where the discussion above is discussing aborting the attack if the assassin hasn't rolled well for initiative, however let's look at the situation from a RAW perspective here (note that this is MY take on the situation from reading the rules).
In our example, the guard goes first on initiative order, so what's actually happening? The guard doesn't magically know that they are in combat (like in a video game, where combat music starts up), so what is actually happening? The rules on surprise state, "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
The guard rolling higher on initiative represents the random factors that occur that mean they are now not in a situation where they are going to be surprised, even though the assassin made a stealth check. Maybe a dog howled or cat screeched and the guard has turned to look in that direction, meaning they will see the assassin moving in (if they attack). Maybe the guard just decided to turn around and lean against the wall because they are tired, thus negating their blindside?
There is nothing here to say that the guard is aware of the assassin though, so when we hit the assassin's turn, they could absolutely use their action to move away and not attack, having noted that the circumstances have now altered and the opportunity they were looking at has vanished.
I can see that if a player repeatedly does this, then the DM might get annoyed at all the dice rolling with nothing happening. However consider that each time, there is a risk that the assassin will fail their stealth roll and the guard will not be surprised and will instead spot the assassin. It may well work out better to attack anyway, without risking that further.
To be fair, it's not particularly rare in our table to use initiative out of combat when people want to do conflicting things at the same time. Not with the entire rules baggage, but to resolve simultaneous actions.
"I open the door." "I stop him!"
or
"I grab the jewel and throw it to the sea." "I sleight of hand the jewel to my pocket, replacing it with the opal I have."
"Okay, you two roll initiative."
In the first case, the DM should just let the players talk it out (nothing happens in game until the players agree to a plan). If the player's can't agree, and player 1 goes to open the door anyway, and player 2 still tries to stop it, looking to the DM to resolve it, then it comes down to a contest of skills. Player 2 can use grapple, persuasion, intimidation, etc... But that becomes a form of PVP and many DM's will not allow this.
The other situation with the jewel, I would not allow to happen. If player 2 is OK with player 1 taking the jewel, but then objects when he finds out player 1 will throw the jewel away, then deciding to sleight of hand to make a swap is meta-gaming. If player 2 doesn't trust player 1, he should have swapped the jewel pre-emptively. Once he finds out the jewel will be lost because an action has been declared, it's dishonest to THEN decide to change the outcome. As a DM I would rule "The jewel is thrown out to sea" because your character doesn't know it's going to be thrown.
As for initiative, the rules for Surprise are very clear in the PHB:
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
An entire round of combat happens, and the surprised individuals SKIP their turns. So it doesn't matter if the Assassin is last in the initiative order, his target will still be surprised and the assassin will still gain the use of his abilities.
Thanks for taking the time to break it down, Stormknight. I suppose RAW there's nothing stopping you from moving away after initiative has been rolled.
My only quibble would be this line: "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Which is what leads me to think that the assassin declaring they wanted to attack a guard is what determines initiative being rolled, as that would be the start of combat, and if they've declared it, it'd be a bit odd to take it back. Similar to taking back wanting to disarm a trap after rolling a 1 on their dexterity check.
I suppose it all depends at what point initiative is rolled. I like your narrative explanation of why an assassin would be able to decide not to make an attack after all, but in my mind, the assassin is already in the process of making their attack when initiative is rolled. If they're not at the top of the initiative order, it just meant those that are higher did whatever they're doing slightly faster.
The alternative would be rolling initiative when the assassin is *thinking* about making an attack. It's an interesting one.
An entire round of combat happens, and the surprised individuals SKIP their turns. So it doesn't matter if the Assassin is last in the initiative order, his target will still be surprised and the assassin will still gain the use of his abilities.
That's not quite how it works - when it reaches the point in initiative where the target has their turn, even though they can take no action because they are surprised, they are then no longer surprised after the end of their turn. See my example above. :)
@Chequers,
thanks. :)
I think it's great that the rules are very flexible on this as not every situation is the same!
An entire round of combat happens, and the surprised individuals SKIP their turns. So it doesn't matter if the Assassin is last in the initiative order, his target will still be surprised and the assassin will still gain the use of his abilities.
That's not quite how it works - when it reaches the point in initiative where the target has their turn, even though they can take no action because they are surprised, they are then no longer surprised after the end of their turn. See my example above. :)
I'll go on the record and state that doesn't make sense. In a 1 on 1 situation where an assassin's party is not around to participate in the initiative order, a target that is "surprised" rolls a higher initiative than the assassin that surprised him ends up NOT surprised, then that's a paradox. Think of the order of the narrative:
Assassin: I want to sneak up behind that guard to make a surprise attack.
DM: Ok, roll stealth.
Assassin rolls stealth, DM rolls perception.
DM: Yup, the guard has no idea you're there.
Assassin: I'm right behind him, so this is a surprise attack?
DM: Yes, the guard is surprised.
Assassin: Then I attack him.
DM: Roll initiative.
Assassin and DM rolls initiative.
DM: Guard goes first. He can't do anything, but you lose the element of surprise.
Assassin: What? You just said he WAS surprised!
As a DM, I would houserule this, because it is not clearly thought out. DM rolled and ruled surprise. Then DM and player rolled again, and DM has to undo his ruling.
I suppose it all depends at what point initiative is rolled. I like your narrative explanation of why an assassin would be able to decide not to make an attack after all, but in my mind, the assassin has already made their attack when initiative is rolled. If they're not at the top of the initiative order, it just meant those that are higher did whatever they're doing slightly faster.
The alternative would be rolling initiative when the assassin is *thinking* about making an attack. It's an interesting one.
I guess one way to go about the narrative is that the assassin is lining up for the attack, but just as he is about to release the attack the target unexpectedly moves slightly for whatever reason, and the assassin decides to wait with the attack until the target stops doing whatever he is doing. If I was the DM in this situation I might have the assassin roll another stealth check to see if the unexpected disturbance/action affected his stealthiness.
As for initiative, the rules for Surprise are very clear in the PHB:
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
An entire round of combat happens, and the surprised individuals SKIP their turns. So it doesn't matter if the Assassin is last in the initiative order, his target will still be surprised and the assassin will still gain the use of his abilities.
As Stormknight mentioned, creatures are no longer surprised after their first turn. And in the case of a surprise round, a surprised creature's turn is not skipped. It simply cannot take any actions or move.
As Stormknight mentioned, creatures are no longer surprised after their first turn. And in the case of a surprise round, a surprised creature's turn is not skipped. It simply cannot take any actions or move.
A turn consists of movement, action, bonus action. You can't do ANY of those when surprised. Therefore your turn ends. That, by definition, is SKIPPING your turn.
I'll go on the record and state that doesn't make sense. In a 1 on 1 situation where an assassin's party is not around to participate in the initiative order, a target that is "surprised" rolls a higher initiative than the assassin that surprised him ends up NOT surprised, then that's a paradox. Think of the order of the narrative:
Assassin: I want to sneak up behind that guard to make a surprise attack.
DM: Ok, roll stealth.
Assassin rolls stealth, DM rolls perception.
DM: Yup, the guard has no idea you're there.
Assassin: I'm right behind him, so this is a surprise attack?
DM: Yes, the guard is surprised.
Assassin: Then I attack him.
DM: Roll initiative.
Assassin and DM rolls initiative.
DM: Guard goes first. He can't do anything, but you lose the element of surprise.
Assassin: What? You just said he WAS surprised!
As a DM, I would houserule this, because it is not clearly thought out. DM rolled and ruled surprise. Then DM and player rolled again, and DM has to undo his ruling.
As a DM I would've rolled the movement into the player's first turn instead of letting them sneak all the way up behind the guard before declaring combat. I also would've used the Hidden List option in the Combat, Tracking Initiative section of DMG chapter 8. No rule says that the players know the initiative of every combatant and the DMG explicitly allows the DM to both roll dice secretly and keep the initiative list hidden to avoid tipping off the players about combatants that haven't been revealed yet (or situations like this.) So, I would've played out the encounter like this:
Assassin: "I want to sneak up behind that guard to make a surprise attack."
DM: "Ok, roll stealth and initiative."
Player hides and wins initiative: "You close the gap without the guard noticing and catch him by surprise. Attack with advantage."
Player fails to hide, wins initiative: "The guard notices you! You beat his initiative and react quicker than him. Fight or flight?"
Player hides and loses initiative: "The guard realizes something's amiss. He's no longer surprised, but you close the gap and attack him before he sees you. Attack with advantage."
Player fails to hide, loses initiative: "The guard notices you and charges at you with weapon drawn." The guard then takes his turn.
In reality it's likely the Assassin had already pre-rolled Stealth if they were skulking about, following the travel rules for a slow pace in the PH.
Your hidden list doesn't work if it's 1 vs 1. The assissin will immediately know if he won or lost initiative when the DM plays the NPC or lets the Assassin go first. It's irrelevant to the scenario above.
That being said, let me generalize the situation even more: The Assassin sneaks around a corner and ends up adjacent to a guard with his back turned to the Assassin.
The Assassin hasn't made a conscious decision to move to perform an attack, he just found himself in the perfect situation. The stealth vs perception was already rolled in the Assassin's favor (or else we wouldn't be having the conversation about Surprise Attacks), hence he is standing there right behind a guard and has the option to decide how to proceed. So he'll ask, "If I attack him, the guard will be surprised?" <-- No movement involved here.
Where in the RAW rules for Surprise Attacks does it say that Surprise is resolved once initiative is rolled? By the mechanics outlined in the Sage Advice, the DM would have to say, "We can't determine that until we roll initiative." It doesn't. In fact the section for Surprise is specifically ordered to establish the surprise status before combat starts.
Lastly, this is a paradox:
Player hides and loses initiative: "The guard realizes something's amiss. He's no longer surprised, but you close the gap and attack him before he sees you. Attack with advantage."
If you win the stealth vs. perception check, then the guard can't realize something is amiss. Then you go on and rule as a DM that the Assassin gets advantage to make up for the fact that the mechanic doesn't make sense, because the rules per RAW state that the assassin would only get advantage if the guard didn't get a turn first.
Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
You're ruling to break a RAW rule to fix a broken rule.
Having to win 2 checks (Stealth and then Initiative) is like having a wizard roll To-Hit with a Fireball, and then letting the creatures roll a saving throw after it is determined the wizard hits. The rules aren't written that way because it breaks logic. Wizard succeeded with the To-Hit, but then failed because a rogue used evasion on the saving throw? So he didn't hit even though the dice said he did. Doesn't make sense, hence why most skills and abilities only have to succeed on one check.
Your hidden list doesn't work if it's 1 vs 1. The assissin will immediately know if he won or lost initiative when the DM plays the NPC or lets the Assassin go first. It's irrelevant to the scenario above.
It's relevant for the cases where the guard is surprised. You're not going to tip the player off when the guard takes his turn because the guard isn't going to do anything with his turn.
That being said, let me generalize the situation even more: The Assassin sneaks around a corner and ends up adjacent to a guard with his back turned to the Assassin.
The Assassin hasn't made a conscious decision to move to perform an attack, he just found himself in the perfect situation. The stealth vs perception was already rolled in the Assassin's favor (or else we wouldn't be having the conversation about Surprise Attacks), hence he is standing there right behind a guard and has the option to decide how to proceed. So he'll ask, "If I attack him, the guard will be surprised?" <-- No movement involved here.
Attacking involves moving your body and has the potential to make noise even before you hit.
Lastly, this is a paradox:
Player hides and loses initiative: "The guard realizes something's amiss. He's no longer surprised, but you close the gap and attack him before he sees you. Attack with advantage."
If you win the stealth vs. perception check, then the guard can't realize something is amiss.
There's many ways to narrate the result of a stealth roll. You've posed a situation where the initiative and surprise rules make narrating a certain situation difficult and I've given you a way to narrate that in a coherent way. The narrative effect of being surprised yet winning initiative is that you realize you're in danger right before something happens to you, and thus have a chance to react (e.g. use reactions.) The narrative effect of winning the hide check is being an unseen attacker. You can come up with whatever reason you want for how the guard suddenly realized he's in danger; he might've noticed the Rogue's shadow, gotten startled by a different noise, or just decided to turn around because he forgot something. Maybe he's a barbarian with feral senses. Maybe he has a weapon of warning. It doesn't matter.
Then you go on and rule as a DM that the Assassin gets advantage to make up for the fact that the mechanic doesn't make sense, because the rules per RAW state that the assassin would only get advantage if the guard didn't get a turn first.
No, I gave them advantage because they still won the stealth roll and thus would've been an unseen attacker.
Having to win 2 checks (Stealth and then Initiative) is like having a wizard roll To-Hit with a Fireball, and then letting the creatures roll a saving throw after it is determined the wizard hits.
Except the Assassin doesn't have to win 2 rolls to hit, they need to win 2 rolls to autocrit. If wizards could deal double damage with a spell at the start of combat I'd expect that to be gated behind a second roll too. Failing and getting a regular fireball isn't so bad
Having to win 2 checks (Stealth and then Initiative) is like having a wizard roll To-Hit with a Fireball, and then letting the creatures roll a saving throw after it is determined the wizard hits. The rules aren't written that way because it breaks logic. Wizard succeeded with the To-Hit, but then failed because a rogue used evasion on the saving throw? So he didn't hit even though the dice said he did. Doesn't make sense, hence why most skills and abilities only have to succeed on one check.
You can surprise an enemy, but still not resolve your action first. In your situation, you've managed to sneak up on a guard. He doesn't know you're there, so you decide to attack - roll initiative.
If the guard rolls higher, then narratively, as your assassin makes their attack, the guard 'acts' first - but as he doesn't know you're there, all he can do on his turn is 'be surprised'. Perhaps he moves slightly in a way your assassin didn't expect, meaning your strike isn't as perfect (automatic critical) as it should have been. Perhaps he just notices you as you launch your attack (remember a round is happening simultaneously, and you are only hidden until you attack), and while he doesn't have time to do anything, he's not completely unaware by the time your attack lands.
However you want to look at it narratively, if you're below an enemy in the initiative order, by the time your attack lands, he's no longer surprised, so you get the advantage of getting to land an attack first, but not the benefit of the (very powerful) assassinate ability.
It's relevant for the cases where the guard is surprised. You're not going to tip the player off when the guard takes his turn because the guard isn't going to do anything with his turn.
You're being facetious. The player will be tipped off when the DM says he can't roll for crits. It's obvious what happened...
Attacking involves moving your body and has the potential to make noise even before you hit.
The Combat Step-by-Step specifically states you have to establish Surprise BEFORE rolling initiative. That means you do a stealth vs. perception check before initiative. If your are successful with your stealth attempt, then follow up and lose initiative and the creature is no longer surprised, then that invalidates your success. You can justify it however you want. Step 2 specifically invalidates Step 1. You were NOT successful in surprising your opponent.
There's many ways to narrate the result of a stealth roll. You've posed a situation where the initiative and surprise rules make narrating a certain situation difficult and I've given you a way to narrate that in a coherent way.
The way I see it, you're controlling the narrative, as a DM, to explain a broken game mechanic. I don't care about narrative in this situation, I care about game mechanics and rendering a sub-class near useless for 6 levels.
The narrative effect of being surprised yet winning initiative is that you realize you're in danger right before something happens to you, and thus have a chance to react (e.g. use reactions.) The narrative effect of winning the hide check is being an unseen attacker. You can come up with whatever reason you want for how the guard suddenly realized he's in danger; he might've noticed the Rogue's shadow, gotten startled by a different noise,
Nope, that would fall under Stealth vs. Perception
or just decided to turn around because he forgot something.
If a DM did this kind of thing to invalidate a core feature of my class, I wouldn't play at his table.
Maybe he's a barbarian with feral senses. Maybe he has a weapon of warning.
No, in this case the DM would rule that the NPC/Creature is NOT surprised and it wouldn't lose it's turn at all.
It doesn't matter.
It does to me.
Except the Assassin doesn't have to win 2 rolls to hit, they need to win 2 rolls to autocrit. If wizards could deal double damage with a spell at the start of combat I'd expect that to be gated behind a second roll too. Failing and getting a regular fireball isn't so bad
Huh? Wizards CAN deal double damage with a spell... it's called a crit. Which brings up a good point: The Assassin sub-class gets nothing between level 3 and level 9, so that's 6 levels for an ability that is situationally rare to begin with, let alone placing it behind 2 successful checks. All for something that a non Assassin sub-class can automatically do by rolling a 20 regardless of where they are in the initiative, given they have advantage somehow.
You can surprise an enemy, but still not resolve your action first. In your situation, you've managed to sneak up on a guard. He doesn't know you're there, so you decide to attack - roll initiative.
If the guard rolls higher, then narratively, as your assassin makes their attack, the guard 'acts' first - but as he doesn't know you're there, all he can do on his turn is 'be surprised'. Perhaps he moves slightly in a way your assassin didn't expect, meaning your strike isn't as perfect (automatic critical) as it should have been. Perhaps he just notices you as you launch your attack (remember a round is happening simultaneously, and you are only hidden until you attack), and while he doesn't have time to do anything, he's not completely unaware by the time your attack lands.
However you want to look at it narratively, if you're below an enemy in the initiative order, by the time your attack lands, he's no longer surprised, so you get the advantage of getting to land an attack first, but not the benefit of the (very powerful) assassinate ability.
All you're doing is finding justifications for the rules as interpreted. If the rules were written the other way, where an assassin that enters a round of combat against a surprised opponent gets to land his Crit, would you be in the forums demanding that there be some way to allow for random chance for situations where the DM decides that the target moves slightly?
If you played at a table where a DM told your Barbarian he can't rage because he's having a good day... would you play with that DM again? It's the same thing, except in the case of Assassination, there's a very poorly written rule/Sage Advice the DM could use as justification.
All you're doing is finding justifications for the rules as interpreted. If the rules were written the other way, where an assassin that enters a round of combat against a surprised opponent gets to land his Crit, would you be in the forums demanding that there be some way to allow for random chance for situations where the DM decides that the target moves slightly?
If you played at a table where a DM told your Barbarian he can't rage because he's having a good day... would you play with that DM again? It's the same thing, except in the case of Assassination, there's a very poorly written rule/Sage Advice the DM could use as justification.
I'm following rules as written... the fact it's been corroborated by the guy that designed the rules simply confirms it: 'Assassinate does require the Assassin to have a higher initiative than the target.' (Jeremy Crawford, 17th Nov, 2015)
I wouldn't call that 'a poorly written rule'. I'd say that's pretty clear, from the Lead Rules Designer of Dungeons and Dragons. I don't need justification - it's been confirmed.
If the rule was 'written the other way', then I wouldn't be having the conversation with you, so that's irrelevant. We're discussing (or at least I thought we were), what the rule is as written. Not my personal thoughts or feelings about the rule. If you're interested however, as a DM, I think it's a good rule that helps balance a very powerful ability, and gives assassins pause to consider additional ways of ensuring they get higher up the initiative order, through feats, greater dexterity, etc. If you disagree, that's fine.
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Surprise ends after a creature has taken their turn. If they're higher in the initiative order than the assassin, they have their turn first (albeit can only 'be surprised' and therefore not take any actions etc), therefore the auto-crit doesn't apply. If you want to rule something different, go right ahead - I'm sure plenty do - but that's not RAW - and that's ok. Don't let the rules get in the way, that's the beauty of D&D.
That's very much different to:
Rage: In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On Your Turn, you can enter rage as a bonus action.
If the barbarian has a bonus action available on their turn, they can use it to enter rage. If the DM decides they can't because 'they're having a good day', then that's a purely narrative decision outside of the game mechanics entirely, so nothing to do with the rules as written.
A turn consists of movement, action, bonus action. You can't do ANY of those when surprised. Therefore your turn ends. That, by definition, is SKIPPING your turn.
That is your own definition. At least it is not a definition supported by any rules I have seen. Can you provide a reference for this definition?
The Combat Step-by-Step specifically states you have to establish Surprise BEFORE rolling initiative. That means you do a stealth vs. perception check before initiative. If your are successful with your stealth attempt, then follow up and lose initiative and the creature is no longer surprised, then that invalidates your success. You can justify it however you want. Step 2 specifically invalidates Step 1. You were NOT successful in surprising your opponent.
Are you assuming that your opponent will be surprised forever? If you pass the stealth check you are hidden and he will be surprised at the beginning of combat (because he doesn't know you are there). But as soon combat starts and your target rolls a higher initiative than you, he will be in a position that allows him to react to what happens next (because he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet, at that specific moment). As such, it doesn't invalidate your surprise as he is still shocked (or would be if you attacked) to the degree of not being able to move or take any major actions. However it does mean that your assassination attempt failed as he happened to be lucky at that moment and will be able to react.
"... In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight..." - Jeremy Crawford
Are you assuming that your opponent will be surprised forever?
No. Now you're obfuscating. I never said that. Here's a quote from the same Sage Advice I linked twice already:
"...In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so." - Jeremy Crawford
Surprise doesn't last "forever".
If you pass the stealth check you are hidden and he will be surprised at the beginning of combat (because he doesn't know you are there). But as soon combat starts and your target rolls a higher initiative than you, he will be in a position that allows him to react to what happens next (because he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet, at that specific moment).
So from the time you moved up beside him "he doesn't know you are there", but when you push the knife into his kidneys all of a sudden "he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet," Umm, it would be more believable if the DM just said, "you're a failure and you missed your critical."
As such, it doesn't invalidate your surprise as he is still shocked (or would be if you attacked) to the degree of not being able to move or take any major actions. However it does mean that your assassination attempt failed as he happened to be lucky at that moment and will be able to react.
Getting "lucky" is exactly my grievance. Lets look at the other Rogue sub-classes and their abilities:
Arcane Trickster:
Gains the ability to cast wizard spells, no restrictions other than the usual spell casting mechanics. From level 3 to 9, the Arcane trickster continues to learn more spells as well as level 2 spells at level 7.
Inquisitive:
Ear for deceit: Effectively an always on Passive Insight of 8.
Eye for detail: Always available Perception or Investigation checks as bonus action
Insightful Fighting: Always available bonus action Insight vs. Deception check. If you don't already have disadvantage vs target, a success allows you to sneak attack without advantage. Requires a successful To-Hit but effect lasts 1 minute.
Mastermind:
Master of Intrigue: Social bonuses (proficiency + 2 languages)
Master of Tactics: Always available bonus action Help with a 30 foot range
Scout:
Skirmisher: Extra movement if reaction is available when enemy ends turn within 5 ft. Doesn't provoke AoO.
Survivalist: (Double?) proficiency bonus for Survival and Nature skills.
Swashbuckler:
Fancy Footwork: Every creature you attack, even if your attack fails, can't use AoO's against you.
Rakish Audacity:
Always on boost to initiative rolls
Always available ability to sneak attack without advantage if you and enemy are adjacent and alone.
Thief:
Fast Hands: Always available improvement to Cunning Action
Second-Story Work: Climbing no longer costs double movement and jump distance increases
Compare all of the above to the Assassin:
Assassinate: Advantage on creatures that haven't taken a turn yet
ONLY for first round of combat
IF you beat enemy initiative.
Assassinate: Automatic critical hit
IF the creature is surprised
IF you succeed a Stealth vs. Perception check
IF you beat enemy initiative
IF you hit
How can you possibly think the above is balance relative to the other sub-classes? The auto-crit and auto-advantage is so highly situational to be RARE and is placed behind so many checks that even during that RARE situation, the probability of success is also RARE. All that to get a crit?
Two other sub-classes have ways to trigger sneak attack much more reliably, and are much more likely to produce crits with sneak attack during normal fighting. All the other sub-classes have benefits that are always available, the assassin has JUST THIS.
As far as I know, the "Surprised" condition (for the lack of a better term) provides no benefit to any other class. It just removes the ability to act and move in the first round of combat, which would benefit any class that triggers the condition. Only the Assassin rogue needs a target to be surprised to use their signature ability, and the wording of the RAW rules screws them because of initiative order.
An observation - there seems to be two separate things being debated now:
1. How do the rules work for surprise & initiative?
This is immutable unless a future errata changes the rules - as per my post above, during the first round of combat for a surprised creature, it loses its surprised status when its turn completes on its initiative. This means that if our assassin rolls lower initiative than the guard, the guard loses their surprise status before the assassin strikes.
Whether this is considered "realistic" or not is a moot point - it's how the rules work. As others have said - the DM is able to house rule differently if a group prefers.
2. Is it reasonable/fair for the assassin subclass?
This is a related but different topic. As you mentioned Kerrec, it does feel like, no matter how well prepared the assassin is - no matter how great their plan is, the random nature of dice can mean that their target rolls higher on initiative and therefore isn't surprised when the assassin attacks from a hidden vantage.
That's a game design issue for the subclass if it makes players feel like they don't have control over how their character works.
I'm not contesting issue #1. The mechanics completely ruin the assassin sub-class, there's no point to it. I would feel compelled as a DM to house rule to fix it.
I've got a question for everyone arguing this right now. I understand the written rules, but what about the written example?
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
This is the first thing shared under surprise as examples of creating surprise. Engulfing is defined as an action for a gelatinous cube, while it is an action that requires movement, it is still an action (to my knowledge). In this instance the gelatinous cube is taking an action outside of an initiative order to create surprise. So, if by example a gelatinous cube can take a surprise action outside of initiative, why can't an assassin, let alone anyone who is sneaking up on someone, take a surprise action outside of initiative?
As the cube gets close enough to engulf the target does everyone roll initiative instead of the cube getting to engulf someone right away?
If the action that determined initiative being rolled in the first place came from the rogue - it has to resolve, even if they aren't the first to 'act' in the initiative order. He has declared his action - he is making that action when everyone rolls for initiative - when that action resolves depends on his place in the initiative order.
Otherwise, what are we rolling initiative for? A hypothetical attack? Bear in mind, initiative isn't an actual action. It's merely a numerical representation of the order in which a round of actions resolve.
Put another way, you can't change your mind on something you've already done. It would be like saying 'I try and disarm the trap', then rolling a 1, and then deciding you don't want to try and disarm the trap.
It's quite interesting actually, so let's take a look at the flow of combat when surprise is involved.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/combat
Say we are talking about a situation where an assassin PC is trying to sneak up on a lone guard and kill them.
Looking at the relevant explanation text around those:
1. Determine Surprise.
Not much to say about that other than to quote, "The DM determines who might be surprised," and the stealth vs perception checks.
3. Roll Initiative
"When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Again, fairly clear. That we've gotten as far as rolling initiative means the DM has declared that combat has started, due to actions by players or monsters.
For our example, let's say that the guard rolls initiative of 18 and the player assassin rolls 14.
4. Take Turns
Now this is the bit where the discussion above is discussing aborting the attack if the assassin hasn't rolled well for initiative, however let's look at the situation from a RAW perspective here (note that this is MY take on the situation from reading the rules).
In our example, the guard goes first on initiative order, so what's actually happening? The guard doesn't magically know that they are in combat (like in a video game, where combat music starts up), so what is actually happening? The rules on surprise state, "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
The guard rolling higher on initiative represents the random factors that occur that mean they are now not in a situation where they are going to be surprised, even though the assassin made a stealth check. Maybe a dog howled or cat screeched and the guard has turned to look in that direction, meaning they will see the assassin moving in (if they attack). Maybe the guard just decided to turn around and lean against the wall because they are tired, thus negating their blindside?
There is nothing here to say that the guard is aware of the assassin though, so when we hit the assassin's turn, they could absolutely use their action to move away and not attack, having noted that the circumstances have now altered and the opportunity they were looking at has vanished.
I can see that if a player repeatedly does this, then the DM might get annoyed at all the dice rolling with nothing happening. However consider that each time, there is a risk that the assassin will fail their stealth roll and the guard will not be surprised and will instead spot the assassin. It may well work out better to attack anyway, without risking that further.
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In the first case, the DM should just let the players talk it out (nothing happens in game until the players agree to a plan). If the player's can't agree, and player 1 goes to open the door anyway, and player 2 still tries to stop it, looking to the DM to resolve it, then it comes down to a contest of skills. Player 2 can use grapple, persuasion, intimidation, etc... But that becomes a form of PVP and many DM's will not allow this.
The other situation with the jewel, I would not allow to happen. If player 2 is OK with player 1 taking the jewel, but then objects when he finds out player 1 will throw the jewel away, then deciding to sleight of hand to make a swap is meta-gaming. If player 2 doesn't trust player 1, he should have swapped the jewel pre-emptively. Once he finds out the jewel will be lost because an action has been declared, it's dishonest to THEN decide to change the outcome. As a DM I would rule "The jewel is thrown out to sea" because your character doesn't know it's going to be thrown.
As for initiative, the rules for Surprise are very clear in the PHB:
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
An entire round of combat happens, and the surprised individuals SKIP their turns. So it doesn't matter if the Assassin is last in the initiative order, his target will still be surprised and the assassin will still gain the use of his abilities.
Thanks for taking the time to break it down, Stormknight. I suppose RAW there's nothing stopping you from moving away after initiative has been rolled.
My only quibble would be this line: "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Which is what leads me to think that the assassin declaring they wanted to attack a guard is what determines initiative being rolled, as that would be the start of combat, and if they've declared it, it'd be a bit odd to take it back. Similar to taking back wanting to disarm a trap after rolling a 1 on their dexterity check.
I suppose it all depends at what point initiative is rolled. I like your narrative explanation of why an assassin would be able to decide not to make an attack after all, but in my mind, the assassin is already in the process of making their attack when initiative is rolled. If they're not at the top of the initiative order, it just meant those that are higher did whatever they're doing slightly faster.
The alternative would be rolling initiative when the assassin is *thinking* about making an attack. It's an interesting one.
That's not quite how it works - when it reaches the point in initiative where the target has their turn, even though they can take no action because they are surprised, they are then no longer surprised after the end of their turn. See my example above. :)
@Chequers,
thanks. :)
I think it's great that the rules are very flexible on this as not every situation is the same!
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Had to google this, because it's not in PHB.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-november-2015
I'll go on the record and state that doesn't make sense. In a 1 on 1 situation where an assassin's party is not around to participate in the initiative order, a target that is "surprised" rolls a higher initiative than the assassin that surprised him ends up NOT surprised, then that's a paradox. Think of the order of the narrative:
As a DM, I would houserule this, because it is not clearly thought out. DM rolled and ruled surprise. Then DM and player rolled again, and DM has to undo his ruling.
I guess one way to go about the narrative is that the assassin is lining up for the attack, but just as he is about to release the attack the target unexpectedly moves slightly for whatever reason, and the assassin decides to wait with the attack until the target stops doing whatever he is doing. If I was the DM in this situation I might have the assassin roll another stealth check to see if the unexpected disturbance/action affected his stealthiness.
As Stormknight mentioned, creatures are no longer surprised after their first turn. And in the case of a surprise round, a surprised creature's turn is not skipped. It simply cannot take any actions or move.
A turn consists of movement, action, bonus action. You can't do ANY of those when surprised. Therefore your turn ends. That, by definition, is SKIPPING your turn.
As a DM I would've rolled the movement into the player's first turn instead of letting them sneak all the way up behind the guard before declaring combat. I also would've used the Hidden List option in the Combat, Tracking Initiative section of DMG chapter 8. No rule says that the players know the initiative of every combatant and the DMG explicitly allows the DM to both roll dice secretly and keep the initiative list hidden to avoid tipping off the players about combatants that haven't been revealed yet (or situations like this.) So, I would've played out the encounter like this:
In reality it's likely the Assassin had already pre-rolled Stealth if they were skulking about, following the travel rules for a slow pace in the PH.
Your hidden list doesn't work if it's 1 vs 1. The assissin will immediately know if he won or lost initiative when the DM plays the NPC or lets the Assassin go first. It's irrelevant to the scenario above.
That being said, let me generalize the situation even more: The Assassin sneaks around a corner and ends up adjacent to a guard with his back turned to the Assassin.
The Assassin hasn't made a conscious decision to move to perform an attack, he just found himself in the perfect situation. The stealth vs perception was already rolled in the Assassin's favor (or else we wouldn't be having the conversation about Surprise Attacks), hence he is standing there right behind a guard and has the option to decide how to proceed. So he'll ask, "If I attack him, the guard will be surprised?" <-- No movement involved here.
Where in the RAW rules for Surprise Attacks does it say that Surprise is resolved once initiative is rolled? By the mechanics outlined in the Sage Advice, the DM would have to say, "We can't determine that until we roll initiative." It doesn't. In fact the section for Surprise is specifically ordered to establish the surprise status before combat starts.
Lastly, this is a paradox:
If you win the stealth vs. perception check, then the guard can't realize something is amiss. Then you go on and rule as a DM that the Assassin gets advantage to make up for the fact that the mechanic doesn't make sense, because the rules per RAW state that the assassin would only get advantage if the guard didn't get a turn first.
Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
You're ruling to break a RAW rule to fix a broken rule.
Having to win 2 checks (Stealth and then Initiative) is like having a wizard roll To-Hit with a Fireball, and then letting the creatures roll a saving throw after it is determined the wizard hits. The rules aren't written that way because it breaks logic. Wizard succeeded with the To-Hit, but then failed because a rogue used evasion on the saving throw? So he didn't hit even though the dice said he did. Doesn't make sense, hence why most skills and abilities only have to succeed on one check.
It's relevant for the cases where the guard is surprised. You're not going to tip the player off when the guard takes his turn because the guard isn't going to do anything with his turn.
Attacking involves moving your body and has the potential to make noise even before you hit.
There's many ways to narrate the result of a stealth roll. You've posed a situation where the initiative and surprise rules make narrating a certain situation difficult and I've given you a way to narrate that in a coherent way. The narrative effect of being surprised yet winning initiative is that you realize you're in danger right before something happens to you, and thus have a chance to react (e.g. use reactions.) The narrative effect of winning the hide check is being an unseen attacker. You can come up with whatever reason you want for how the guard suddenly realized he's in danger; he might've noticed the Rogue's shadow, gotten startled by a different noise, or just decided to turn around because he forgot something. Maybe he's a barbarian with feral senses. Maybe he has a weapon of warning. It doesn't matter.
No, I gave them advantage because they still won the stealth roll and thus would've been an unseen attacker.
Except the Assassin doesn't have to win 2 rolls to hit, they need to win 2 rolls to autocrit. If wizards could deal double damage with a spell at the start of combat I'd expect that to be gated behind a second roll too. Failing and getting a regular fireball isn't so bad
You can surprise an enemy, but still not resolve your action first. In your situation, you've managed to sneak up on a guard. He doesn't know you're there, so you decide to attack - roll initiative.
If the guard rolls higher, then narratively, as your assassin makes their attack, the guard 'acts' first - but as he doesn't know you're there, all he can do on his turn is 'be surprised'. Perhaps he moves slightly in a way your assassin didn't expect, meaning your strike isn't as perfect (automatic critical) as it should have been. Perhaps he just notices you as you launch your attack (remember a round is happening simultaneously, and you are only hidden until you attack), and while he doesn't have time to do anything, he's not completely unaware by the time your attack lands.
However you want to look at it narratively, if you're below an enemy in the initiative order, by the time your attack lands, he's no longer surprised, so you get the advantage of getting to land an attack first, but not the benefit of the (very powerful) assassinate ability.
All you're doing is finding justifications for the rules as interpreted. If the rules were written the other way, where an assassin that enters a round of combat against a surprised opponent gets to land his Crit, would you be in the forums demanding that there be some way to allow for random chance for situations where the DM decides that the target moves slightly?
If you played at a table where a DM told your Barbarian he can't rage because he's having a good day... would you play with that DM again? It's the same thing, except in the case of Assassination, there's a very poorly written rule/Sage Advice the DM could use as justification.
I'm following rules as written... the fact it's been corroborated by the guy that designed the rules simply confirms it: 'Assassinate does require the Assassin to have a higher initiative than the target.' (Jeremy Crawford, 17th Nov, 2015)
I wouldn't call that 'a poorly written rule'. I'd say that's pretty clear, from the Lead Rules Designer of Dungeons and Dragons. I don't need justification - it's been confirmed.
If the rule was 'written the other way', then I wouldn't be having the conversation with you, so that's irrelevant. We're discussing (or at least I thought we were), what the rule is as written. Not my personal thoughts or feelings about the rule. If you're interested however, as a DM, I think it's a good rule that helps balance a very powerful ability, and gives assassins pause to consider additional ways of ensuring they get higher up the initiative order, through feats, greater dexterity, etc. If you disagree, that's fine.
Assassinate: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
Surprise ends after a creature has taken their turn. If they're higher in the initiative order than the assassin, they have their turn first (albeit can only 'be surprised' and therefore not take any actions etc), therefore the auto-crit doesn't apply. If you want to rule something different, go right ahead - I'm sure plenty do - but that's not RAW - and that's ok. Don't let the rules get in the way, that's the beauty of D&D.
That's very much different to:
Rage: In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On Your Turn, you can enter rage as a bonus action.
If the barbarian has a bonus action available on their turn, they can use it to enter rage. If the DM decides they can't because 'they're having a good day', then that's a purely narrative decision outside of the game mechanics entirely, so nothing to do with the rules as written.
That is your own definition. At least it is not a definition supported by any rules I have seen. Can you provide a reference for this definition?
Are you assuming that your opponent will be surprised forever? If you pass the stealth check you are hidden and he will be surprised at the beginning of combat (because he doesn't know you are there). But as soon combat starts and your target rolls a higher initiative than you, he will be in a position that allows him to react to what happens next (because he happens to be wary, alert, or on the balls of his feet, at that specific moment). As such, it doesn't invalidate your surprise as he is still shocked (or would be if you attacked) to the degree of not being able to move or take any major actions. However it does mean that your assassination attempt failed as he happened to be lucky at that moment and will be able to react.
An observation - there seems to be two separate things being debated now:
1. How do the rules work for surprise & initiative?
This is immutable unless a future errata changes the rules - as per my post above, during the first round of combat for a surprised creature, it loses its surprised status when its turn completes on its initiative. This means that if our assassin rolls lower initiative than the guard, the guard loses their surprise status before the assassin strikes.
Whether this is considered "realistic" or not is a moot point - it's how the rules work. As others have said - the DM is able to house rule differently if a group prefers.
2. Is it reasonable/fair for the assassin subclass?
This is a related but different topic. As you mentioned Kerrec, it does feel like, no matter how well prepared the assassin is - no matter how great their plan is, the random nature of dice can mean that their target rolls higher on initiative and therefore isn't surprised when the assassin attacks from a hidden vantage.
That's a game design issue for the subclass if it makes players feel like they don't have control over how their character works.
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I'm not contesting issue #1. The mechanics completely ruin the assassin sub-class, there's no point to it. I would feel compelled as a DM to house rule to fix it.
I've got a question for everyone arguing this right now. I understand the written rules, but what about the written example?
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
This is the first thing shared under surprise as examples of creating surprise. Engulfing is defined as an action for a gelatinous cube, while it is an action that requires movement, it is still an action (to my knowledge). In this instance the gelatinous cube is taking an action outside of an initiative order to create surprise. So, if by example a gelatinous cube can take a surprise action outside of initiative, why can't an assassin, let alone anyone who is sneaking up on someone, take a surprise action outside of initiative?
As the cube gets close enough to engulf the target does everyone roll initiative instead of the cube getting to engulf someone right away?
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