I think that in practice many DM‘s allow a single character to make a single attack from an ambush before rolling initiative. I don’t know that that’s actually supported in the players handbook, but it does address the problem of why an enemy would be allowed to roll initiative and go first when they have not yet perceived any sort of attack against them or danger. Whether that single attack counts as surprise even though it is not during a surprise round in combat, and whether the first round of the combat that follows is a true surprise round or if you launch right into normal rounds... I dunno, again, an “opening volley” isn’t RAW.
Surprise doesn’t feel great in 5E.
I generally treat a surprising start of combat as surprise, even if it doesn't qualify for RAW surprise since the character wasn't stealthy, they just weren't recognized as a threat. It usually requires a deceit check (vs insight) instead of a stealth check.
Yeah I like this approach too but I generally give the bad guys a penalty on their initiative instead.
I'm suprised nobody noticed this, but RAW surprise doesn't actually end.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't." -PHB
Suprised actual says you can't move or take actions on your first turn, not that it ends after your first turn. This means that assassins get unlimited crits against any creature that was surprised at the begining of combat.
"In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit." -Assassin Archetype PHB
So anyways, have fun convincing your DM that RAW is better than RAI in this case.
RAW it doesn't say when surprise ends but it does say
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
It does not say the creature is surprise "for the encounter" or "during the encounter" so it is not for the whole encounter. That then leads to the question when does "the start of the encounter" end?
While I think it makes sense thet you cease to be surprised at the point at which you can take reactions (i.e. at the end of your turn) RAW you could say surprise ends at the end of the first round of combat or something even less logical like after the second round of combat or after any creature has made any move action or bonus action (making assassin almost useless)
RAW it doesn't say when surprise ends but it does say
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
It does not say the creature is surprise "for the encounter" or "during the encounter" so it is not for the whole encounter. That then leads to the question when does "the start of the encounter" end?
While I think it makes sense thet you cease to be surprised at the point at which you can take reactions (i.e. at the end of your turn) RAW you could say surprise ends at the end of the first round of combat or something even less logical like after the second round of combat or after any creature has made any move action or bonus action (making assassin almost useless)
Since "Start of the encounter" also isn't a defined period and since "at the start of the encounter" can be read to mean "they gain surprised status at the beginning of the encounter" I would be inclined to read it that way, but RAI that doesn't make any sense.
I would as a DM rule that surprise ends after the first round rather than a creatures turn if I had an Assassin playing, though.
RAW it doesn't say when surprise ends but it does say
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
It does not say the creature is surprise "for the encounter" or "during the encounter" so it is not for the whole encounter. That then leads to the question when does "the start of the encounter" end?
While I think it makes sense thet you cease to be surprised at the point at which you can take reactions (i.e. at the end of your turn) RAW you could say surprise ends at the end of the first round of combat or something even less logical like after the second round of combat or after any creature has made any move action or bonus action (making assassin almost useless)
Since "Start of the encounter" also isn't a defined period and since "at the start of the encounter" can be read to mean "they gain surprised status at the beginning of the encounter" I would be inclined to read it that way, but RAI that doesn't make any sense.
I would as a DM rule that surprise ends after the first round rather than a creatures turn if I had an Assassin playing, though.
I would end it after their first turn in combat.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
You're surprised until your first turn ends as clarified by official ruling in Sage Advice.
Yes, I get that. But many people point out that Sage Advice is advice, especially when it disagrees with their understanding of the rules.
I was pointing out that the condition for being surprised -- having not noticed a threat -- will normally end in the first round of combat if anyone on the "surprising" side takes any actions that produce a threat, i.e. if they actually take any advantage of the surprise.
You're surprised until your first turn ends as clarified by official ruling in Sage Advice.
Yes, I get that. But many people point out that Sage Advice is advice, especially when it disagrees with their understanding of the rules.
I was pointing out that the condition for being surprised -- having not noticed a threat -- will normally end in the first round of combat if anyone on the "surprising" side takes any actions that produce a threat, i.e. if they actually take any advantage of the surprise.
I guess there could be rare instances where a threat isn't notice after the first round of combat. Exemple, if a sleeping creature is ambushed by another, but it's attack miss amd it isn't awakened somehow, it would still be unconcious and unaware of any threat by round 2.
I guess it depends on if the sleeping creature has woken. They are unconscious until they wake, which makes them worse off than just being surprised. XgtE provides rules on how they might wake up, but the PHB does not. They might be asleep for several rounds depending on circumstances, which provide better benefits than just surprising them. On the other hand, they'd likely notice a threat immediately upon waking and not be surprised on any awake rounds.
I wasn't quickly able to come up with a situation where creatures wouldn't notice a threat from attacks made against them and weren't subject to some other condition. Even an arrow landing in the midst of a group from 600 ft away would be a threat worthy of cancelling surprise for subsequent rounds.
I guess it depends on if the sleeping creature has woken. They are unconscious until they wake, which makes them worse off than just being surprised. XgtE provides rules on how they might wake up, but the PHB does not. They might be asleep for several rounds depending on circumstances, which provide better benefits than just surprising them. On the other hand, they'd likely notice a threat immediately upon waking and not be surprised on any awake rounds.
I wasn't quickly able to come up with a situation where creatures wouldn't notice a threat from attacks made against them and weren't subject to some other condition. Even an arrow landing in the midst of a group from 600 ft away would be a threat worthy of cancelling surprise for subsequent rounds.
Casting a spell into a group of enemies in an Antimagic Field? :)
Maybe, depending on the spell. Some spells might not produce a noticeable effect, but others might, and you’d still see that effect streaking toward the shell or an area that is affected outside of the shell.
But casting a spell is noticeable, so therefore probably a threat. Casting a subtle spell with an effect that you might not notice? Maybe you’re getting there. The chances that the entire surprising side is going to stay hidden and subtly cast spells with unnoticeable effects? Still pretty low chances of occurring.
If you successfully sneak up on a group of sleeping enemies and decide to cast a subtle spell that won't wake them up, are you really in combat at that point?
If they were sleeping in an antimagic field and you cast a spell into said field, they wouldn't even notice. So again, has combat been initiated?
Obviously it is up to the DM to decide when to roll for initiative, but I think the combat would only begin once you take an action that would wake them up (attacking or casting a spell that they might hear or feel the effect of). Prior to that there is no need for initiative order because only your party is active. With this in mind, I don't see how you can surprise anyone past the first round, which the rules don't allow anyway.
In that example, the enemies are unconscious, so it doesn't matter if their initiative is higher, because they can't take reactions anyway. Attacking unconscious creatures makes everyone the equivalent of an assassin (if they're within 5 feet anyway).
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Yeah I like this approach too but I generally give the bad guys a penalty on their initiative instead.
I'm suprised nobody noticed this, but RAW surprise doesn't actually end.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't." -PHB
Suprised actual says you can't move or take actions on your first turn, not that it ends after your first turn. This means that assassins get unlimited crits against any creature that was surprised at the begining of combat.
"In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit." -Assassin Archetype PHB
So anyways, have fun convincing your DM that RAW is better than RAI in this case.
RAW it doesn't say when surprise ends but it does say
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
It does not say the creature is surprise "for the encounter" or "during the encounter" so it is not for the whole encounter. That then leads to the question when does "the start of the encounter" end?
While I think it makes sense thet you cease to be surprised at the point at which you can take reactions (i.e. at the end of your turn) RAW you could say surprise ends at the end of the first round of combat or something even less logical like after the second round of combat or after any creature has made any move action or bonus action (making assassin almost useless)
And 5e lack of formalization strikes again. Both 3e and 4e defined this clearly (and ended surprise at the end of the 'surprise' round).
Since "Start of the encounter" also isn't a defined period and since "at the start of the encounter" can be read to mean "they gain surprised status at the beginning of the encounter" I would be inclined to read it that way, but RAI that doesn't make any sense.
I would as a DM rule that surprise ends after the first round rather than a creatures turn if I had an Assassin playing, though.
I would end it after their first turn in combat.
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
The PHB doesn't specify when surprise ends but they covered it in SAC.
A surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat.
Good deal so it's RAW to end after first turn.
Although SAC isn't RAW per se, a creature would notice a threat if any threatening actions occurred during the first round of combat.
You're surprised until your first turn ends as clarified by official ruling in Sage Advice.
Yes, I get that. But many people point out that Sage Advice is advice, especially when it disagrees with their understanding of the rules.
I was pointing out that the condition for being surprised -- having not noticed a threat -- will normally end in the first round of combat if anyone on the "surprising" side takes any actions that produce a threat, i.e. if they actually take any advantage of the surprise.
I guess there could be rare instances where a threat isn't notice after the first round of combat. Exemple, if a sleeping creature is ambushed by another, but it's attack miss amd it isn't awakened somehow, it would still be unconcious and unaware of any threat by round 2.
But generally speaking yeah i agree you usually notice a threat at the start of an encounter, sometimes in time, other times too late☺
I guess it depends on if the sleeping creature has woken. They are unconscious until they wake, which makes them worse off than just being surprised. XgtE provides rules on how they might wake up, but the PHB does not. They might be asleep for several rounds depending on circumstances, which provide better benefits than just surprising them. On the other hand, they'd likely notice a threat immediately upon waking and not be surprised on any awake rounds.
I wasn't quickly able to come up with a situation where creatures wouldn't notice a threat from attacks made against them and weren't subject to some other condition. Even an arrow landing in the midst of a group from 600 ft away would be a threat worthy of cancelling surprise for subsequent rounds.
Casting a spell into a group of enemies in an Antimagic Field? :)
Maybe, depending on the spell. Some spells might not produce a noticeable effect, but others might, and you’d still see that effect streaking toward the shell or an area that is affected outside of the shell.
But casting a spell is noticeable, so therefore probably a threat. Casting a subtle spell with an effect that you might not notice? Maybe you’re getting there. The chances that the entire surprising side is going to stay hidden and subtly cast spells with unnoticeable effects? Still pretty low chances of occurring.
I would still determine surprise and roll initiative before any action is taken in such encounter.
Yeah it's still combat in that case.... You are casting a spell on a group....
I guess it depends on the spell maybe?
In that example, the enemies are unconscious, so it doesn't matter if their initiative is higher, because they can't take reactions anyway. Attacking unconscious creatures makes everyone the equivalent of an assassin (if they're within 5 feet anyway).